As long as they never replace the same ability...then yes.
|
Fighter/Phalanx Soldier/Polearm Master
Fighter 1
Fighter 2/Phalanx Soldier [Stand Firm, replaces Bravery]
Fighter 3/Phalanx Soldier [Phalanx Fighting - replaces Armor Training 1]
Fighter 4
Fighter 5/Polearm Master -[Polearm Training, replaces Weapon Training 1]And so on.
Thanks!
No, it's not legal. On page 72 of the APG it states that, "A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature".
Seems pretty straightforward. Both phalanx soldier and polearm master have alternate class features that replace bravery, armor training, and weapon training. Furthermore, phalanx soldier has a class feature that replaces weapon mastery, while polearm master has a feature that modifies weapon mastery. So, the two archetypes are incompatible with one another.
|
|
It's also important to note that you can't take some of the alternate class features of an archetype. You have to take all of them. "When an archetype includes multiple class features, a character must take all of them -- often blocking the character from ever gaining certain familiar class features, but replacing them with equally powerful options". [APG, page 72].
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
That's kinda what I figured.
So a Fighter has basically two options - core or a fighting-theme, like Polearm Master - because all of the variant use the same class features to some degree.
It's true. There are a handful of archetypes for various classes that swap out different class abilities and that let you take two archetypes, but those are much more the exception than the rule.
For fighters, they don't have all that many class abilities, so I pretty much had to swap out the same suite of class abilities for most of em (although some do keep the baseline abilities, in particular armor training for a couple of the archetypes).
I'm not sure if this is what you are asking or not but are you basically asking if a character can multiclass in the same class but choosing alternate archetype-builds?
example
fighter core level 1
fighter pole-arm archetype level 1
fighter pole-arm archetype level 2
fighter phalanx fighter level 1
for a total character level of 4
See, from his post it did not look like either one replaced the same ability.
Now the question is, can you take one archetype at Xst level, a different one at Ynd level, when both archetypes conflict at Zrd level, and instead muticlass out before Zrd and never go back?
Based on Heymitch's quote (boy, it's weird to have clones in various threads popping up, maybe I need to change my avatar again, I'm overdue), I'd say no. If I'm reading it correctly (I'm a little low on caffeine just now, so I may) it says nothing about the class features being features you possess at the time, only that the alternate abilities must not alter the same ability, period. But me, I'd say sure, go for it;)
|
|
Now the question is, can you take one archetype at Xst level, a different one at Ynd level, when both archetypes conflict at Zrd level, and instead muticlass out before Zrd and never go back?
Is there such a combination?
I haven't examined the Fighter archetypes, but I have looked over the Rogue, and what seems to happen is that each archetype swaps out similar related class abilites. And these similar abilities seem to follow the same pattern across multiple archetypes for that class.
Eg; The Rogue archetypes that swap Trapfinding at level 1, all swap Trap Sense as well. The archetypes that swap Uncanny Dodge all swap Improved Uncanny Dodge. The two themes don't mix.
So you could split them into two categories, and mix one from each category, but the abilities traded should not overlap.
You can take more than one archetype; you can’t swap out the same ability twice (eg, no Acrobat/Cutpurse), but you can mix archetypes that swap out separate abilities (eg Acrobat/Scout).
And even if the pairing is legal, doesn't always mean it synergises well.
Eg, you can be an Acrobat/Burglar, since you trade away trapfinding*, trap sense, uncanny dodge and imp uncanny dodge.
(It’s legal, but not efficient, since although you become more proficient with mechanical devices, you lose the ability to bypass magic wards, and the ‘double trapsense bonus’ vs traps you set off while disarming, is reduced to effectively zero.)
*This is no longer an on/off ability, except for magical wards. Anyone can now attempt mechanical traps of DC 20+, but trapfinding gives a +level/2 class-level bonus.
|
Is there such a combination?
I will have to consult the Matrix. :)
Edit: Lotus/Sacred Mountain Monk is one example. The only class feature conflicting is Tongue of Sun and Moon.
|
|
I know, I just had to throw it out there. Me and Kirth will strip mine the book for new class talents to steal, and add to our houserules, which let you take any one you want from the list.
Let us know if you've updated the 3.5 Scout into PF Rogue talents or an archetype.
I have a player who's champing at the bit to redesign his PC .The options in the APG add extra situations in which to use Sneak Attack, whereas he's more inclined to replace the ability wholesale with mobile Skirmishing, and keep his Uncanny Dodge.
|
|
Let us know if you've updated the 3.5 Scout into PF Rogue talents or an archetype.
I have a player who's champing at the bit to redesign his PC .
Fast Movement we made a ranger talent, but could easily be a rogue talent as well.
Fast Movement (Ex): Your land speed is faster than the norm for your race by +10 feet per round. This benefit applies only when you are wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor, and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying your speed because of any load carried or armor worn. This bonus stacks with any other bonuses to your land speed.
Here are the Skirmish feats.
Benefit: You deal an additional +1d6 damage on all attacks you make during any round in which you move at least 10 feet. Skirmish bonus damage is precision-based; it is not multiplied on a crit, and creatures immune to critical hits or sneak attacks are also immune to skirmish bonus damage. The extra damage applies only to attacks taken during your turn. You must be able to see the target(s) well enough to pick out vital spots.
This extra damage applies to ranged attacks, but only if the target is within point blank range (normally 30 feet, although this can be expanded with the Point-Blank Shot feat).
If you have a base land speed of at least 40 ft., you also gain a +1 competence bonus to AC during any round in which you move at least 10 feet.
Source: This feat supercedes the Scout class feature and the Highland Stalker prestige class feature of the same name, from Complete Adventurer.
Skirmish, Greater (Combat)
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6, Skirmish, Improved Skirmish
Benefit: Your skirmish bonus damage increases to +3d6. Your skirmish AC bonus (if applicable) improves to +3.
Source: This feat supercedes the Scout class feature, from Complete Adventurer.
Skirmish, Improved (Combat)
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +5, Skirmish
Benefit: Your skirmish bonus damage increases to +2d6. Your skirmish AC bonus (if applicable) improves to +2.
Source: This feat supercedes the Scout class feature, from Complete Adventurer.
Skirmish, Superior (Combat)
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +9, Skirmish, Improved Skirmish, Greater Skirmish
Benefit: Your skirmish bonus damage increases to +4d6. Your skirmish AC bonus (if applicable) improves to +4.
Source: This feat supercedes the Scout class feature, from Complete Adventurer.
Skirmisher, Master (Combat)
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +12, Skirmish, Improved Skirmish, Greater Skirmish, Superior Skirmish
Benefit: Your skirmish bonus damage increases to +5d6. Your skirmish AC bonus (if applicable) improves to +5.
Source: This feat supercedes the Scout class feature, from Complete Adventurer.
|
|
I don't think that combining archetypes that have class features that would conflict at higher levels is legal. Unfortunately, the paladin example given in the APG has two archetypes that conflict at 1st level, so it doesn't definitively show this to be the case.
However, I do think that enterprising players and GMs should be encouraged to create entirely new archetypes for their campaigns that are flavorful and balanced. So, why not a new archetype that combines many of the features of Monk of the Sacred Mountain and Monk of the Lotus?
Now the question is, can you take one archetype at Xst level, a different one at Ynd level, when both archetypes conflict at Zrd level, and instead muticlass out before Zrd and never go back?Based on Heymitch's quote (boy, it's weird to have clones in various threads popping up, maybe I need to change my avatar again, I'm overdue), I'd say no. If I'm reading it correctly (I'm a little low on caffeine just now, so I may) it says nothing about the class features being features you possess at the time, only that the alternate abilities must not alter the same ability, period. But me, I'd say sure, go for it;)
This is correct, at first level you swap all abilities for the new ones. You no longer have them, So if you want a 2nd archetype and it requires you to swap say Armor training 2 and your first one already switched that. Then even though you do not have it yet, you simply no longer have it to swap as you will never get it.
You can't switch what you do not have.
Correct, that is how I read it.
Correct, that is how I read it.
RAW I read it that way too.
But Monday I DMd a "Sewer Rats" game and handled it a little differently - one could say, I created a new archetype. A mixture of the urban ranger and the standard one, because I thought it would be a better match for the "campaign". And because I don't really get what / how big exactly a community in "favored community" is. So we got an urban ranger who still has favored terrain instead of a favored community. After all, it's kind of the "same class feature". And I guess you could do this with the other subclasses do - only take the features for a new subclass that you find fitting. As long as you choose between possibilities for a class feature and don't take both, I don't think it will be "game breaking".
Me and Kirth will strip mine the book
Already done... stary tuned for Release 2.0.
BTW, the Skirmish feats have been rewritten, and work more similarly to a run-by attack now; the new versions should be on the CD I burned for you.
My bad, I haven't cracked the spine on that, or whatever the CD equivalent is.
No worries. In a month or two you'll be able to throw out that CD (or use it for a frisbee or wind chime); I'll have a new, improved set of rules for you.
Like an early Christmas present.
Or, if you prefer, Chanukkah happening, Solstice surprise, Kwanzaa bonanza, Ramadan rules reboot, or whatever.
okay so from reading all the thread and the book cover to cover twice so far.
I would say this for the most part you should probably just take one and go with it for situations where you like another ability or feel something different would be better for the feel of the character or the needs of the party I would advise talking to the GM.
Most GM's I know believe in playing for fun, so if you bring in something that will make the game more fun they will be happy to implement it, after making sure it won't kill the game.
|
|
Are these feats in Pathfinder? Where are they from? Barbarian using these feats with two-handed weapon, power attack, vital strike, etc seems amazing.
They are homebrew courtesy of Kirth Gersen. You can find his work in my Google Groups files section here. I will try to update them to the latest versions when I get the chance this weekend.
The way I understand the variants is that when a character first takes a class, the character should announce which if any archetypes will apply to this class. The choice is not made level-by-level but is made when the class itself is selected. So when you first take a level of fighter, you need to decide whether you're a free hand figher or a two-handed fighter or a phalanx soldier or none of the above.
NOTE: As a GM I would probably wait and let you make this choice the first time you make a selection where an alternate class feature would actually apply (so I would let you take your first level of fighter and then declare you're an "archer" at level 2, when Bravery needs to be replaced with Hawkeye). But I think the variant class abilities are supposed to be selected with the class.
The way I understand the variants is that when a character first takes a class, the character should announce which if any archetypes will apply to this class. The choice is not made level-by-level but is made when the class itself is selected. So when you first take a level of fighter, you need to decide whether you're a free hand figher or a two-handed fighter or a phalanx soldier or none of the above.
Correct, you make the call at level one. The is no chance to cherry pick and keep a normal class feature and take an alt later, you take them all or you take none.
|
Correct, you make the call at level one. The is no chance to cherry pick and keep a normal class feature and take an alt later, you take them all or you take none.The way I understand the variants is that when a character first takes a class, the character should announce which if any archetypes will apply to this class. The choice is not made level-by-level but is made when the class itself is selected. So when you first take a level of fighter, you need to decide whether you're a free hand figher or a two-handed fighter or a phalanx soldier or none of the above.
Per Josh's ruling on Pathfinder Society, you can select the archetype anytime up until the first feature would apply. (If the archetype does not differ from the base class until 8th level, you can select the archetype at 8th level.)
Same thing, you can not skip a feature. You can't take an archetype at 8th level if you did not take it at say 2nd when the first ability shows up. You can't cherry pick, you take them all or none
More or less you choose at level 1,
Are these feats in Pathfinder? Where are they from? Barbarian using these feats with two-handed weapon, power attack, vital strike, etc seems amazing.
Part of the reason I rewrote them is because they stepped on the toes of Vital Strike. My current houserules have Vital Strike as one feat, allowing extra damage on a single attack or charge based on BAB: +2d6 at BAB +6, +4d6 at BAB +11, and +6d6 at BAB +16 (and there's a fighter talent and a barbarian advanced rage power that double those figures).
Skirmish allows a run-by attack as a full round action that does +1d6 damage/+1 AC; the improved versions allow iterative attacks while moving and scale up the bonuses. A 16th level ranger with the whole chain (he can get it as a variant combat style) would make 4 iterative run-by attacks at +5d6 damage and +5 AC.
While it seems like Skirmish would be a no-brainer over Vital Strike, you're looking at a cost of 4 feats vs. one, and there are a number of standard-action attack feats that impose conditions: those usually work with Vital Strike, but not with Skirmish.
Either way, yes, high-level melee characters are powerful in our home games.
Reading lots of this, I'm trying to think of how I'd home-brew it.
I think I'd pretty much just strip-mine both Rogue and Scout, leaving only Sneak Attack and Skirmish on the charts, and let you choose between the two. Opportunism, or Mobility, basically.
I'm really surprised Rogues don't have some +Move class talent.
As suggested above, I'd put in a +10ft move talent. Seems fitting.
Personally, I've always been fond of a MC Barbarian / Scout, especially if you can trade out the Barbarian's Fast Movement for something else (seeing they didn't stack). Now that a Barbarian's Fast Movement ability does stack with others, it seems even better.
As an aside - kinda funny how a Fighter question shifted into Skirmish. Heh.
Per Josh's ruling on Pathfinder Society ...
Which only applies to Pathfinder Society and was established as a go-between for folks who wanted full rebuild ability and my no rebuild policy for new book releases.
|
|
As an aside - kinda funny how a Fighter question shifted into Skirmish. Heh.
Well, some people will want to play a light, 1H, mobile fighter...
If not as a full 20-level class, as a dip. I always considered Fighter as one of the classes that could be multi-classed into without needing any mentoring or role-play justification.
|
|
Man, I need to play in that game.
Anyway, these are from Kirth's rules, and actually I should post up the edits he did. Now where did that disc get to...
SKIRMISH (COMBAT)
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Dodge.
Benefit: You can make a full move and a single attack that deals an additional +1d6 damage. The movement must be generally in a straight line, but the attack can take place at any point during your movement. Skirmish bonus damage is precision-based; it is not multiplied on a crit, and creatures immune to critical hits or sneak attacks are also immune to skirmish bonus damage. You must be able to see the target(s) well enough to pick out vital spots.
This extra damage applies to ranged attacks, but only if the target is within point blank range (normally 30 feet, although this can be expanded with the Point-Blank Shot feat).
If you have a base land speed of at least 40 ft., you also gain a +1 competence bonus to AC while performing this maneuver. If your base attack bonus is at least +5, the damage bonus increases to +2d6 and the AC bonus (if applicable) increases to +2.
Source: This feat supercedes the Scout class feature and the Highland Stalker prestige class feature of the same name, from Complete Adventurer, and also the Shot on the Run feat from the core rules.SKIRMISH, IMPROVED (COMBAT)
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +6, Dodge, Skirmish.
Benefit: You can take a full move during which you make up to two iterative attacks (melee or ranged). The movement must be generally in a straight line, but the attacks can take place at any point during your movement as long as there is at least 10 feet of movement between attacks. None of the attacks or movement can be held for later use during the round (see “Preemptive Actions,” under the Combat section of Chapter 1, Variations in the Core Rules Mechanics).
Your skirmish bonus damage increases to +3d6, and applies to both attacks. Your skirmish AC bonus (if applicable) improves to +3.
Source: This feat supercedes the Scout class feature, from Complete Adventurer.SKIRMISH, GREATER (COMBAT)
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +11, Dodge, Skirmish, Improved Skirmish.
Benefit: You can take a full move during which you make up to three iterative attacks (melee or ranged). The movement must be generally in a straight line, but the attacks can take place at any point during your movement as long as there is at least 10 feet of movement between attacks. None of the attacks or movement can be held for later use during the round (see “Preemptive Actions,” under the Combat section of Chapter 1, Variations in the Core Rules Mechanics).
Additionally, your skirmish bonus damage increases to +4d6, and applies to all three attacks. Your skirmish AC bonus (if applicable) improves to +4.
Source: This feat supercedes the Scout class feature, from Complete Adventurer.SKIRMISH, SUPERIOR (COMBAT)
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +16, Dodge, Skirmish, Improved Skirmish, Greater Skirmish.
Benefit: You can take a full move during which you make up to four iterative attacks (melee or ranged). The movement must be generally in a straight line, but the attacks can take place at any point during your movement as long as there is at least 10 feet of movement between attacks. None of the attacks or movement can be held for later use during the round (see “Preemptive Actions,” under the Combat section of Chapter 1, Variations in the Core Rules Mechanics).
Additionally, your skirmish bonus damage increases to +5d6, and applies to all four attacks. Your skirmish AC bonus (if applicable) improves to +5.
Source: This feat supercedes the Scout class feature, from Complete Adventurer.
Obviously these do not work with Vital Strike or any other standard action attack.
I think my lurking player might be having a nerdgasm.
Remember, TOZ and Kirth go for the Pathfinder 'one feat per odd level' rule, not our poxy one every three levels stuff. And those BAB requirements are pretty steep!
Therefore, any nerdgasm will have to wait until we opt for the Pathfinder rules update for feats. And I rebuild as a straight ranger for the BAB. And the Swift Hunter feat is somehow redone, or we use the Pathfinder rules for precision damage... Yes, I'm by nature a optimist's view of a realist...
Unless you have another way..? :-)
Please say you do? :-)
And I rebuild as a straight ranger for the BAB. And the Swift Hunter feat is somehow redone
Our ranger class "ate" the scout.
Don't forget to back 'em up!
Right you are! On my list of chores for today. Thanks again for the earlier assist.