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3.5 paladin was awful.
I never thought so while playing mine -- my smite attacks were typically the most destructive single events during a session. Once you were in double-digit pally levels, targets just exploded when you hit 'em with a Spirited Charge Power Attack Smite.
It's a strongly end-loaded class in 3.5: having multiple instances of, say, +7 att/ +12 dmg makes a fighter's WF/WS/GWF/GWS look lame (especially if combats tended to be short due to overwhelming power). You had the same HD and BAB, far better saves, social skills that weren't trash, a tough mount you could share spells with, and healing and <hallelujah!> Holy Sword.
Smite is much better in Pathfinder, but Power Attack is severely restrained...so all in all it's a wash as far as spamcan melee paladins with two-handers are concerned (arguably they're weaker, aside from Swift lay-on to heal themselves). Archer paladins, otoh, are now monsters.
I don't understand.
3.5 paladin had No immunities. One good save. Less smites and one-attack only. disease as the only condition removed, and WEEKLY.
Now two hand power attack is 1:3 ratio. Old one had no cap, but the hit penalty/damage gained was worse. A paladin had to blow up 5 of his precious 7-8 feats to affor the shocktrooper combo.
how can you call it a wash? I'm sorry, it makes no sense.
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24 CHA = +7 to all saves via Divine Grace. Multiclass two levels of monk (in 3.5 you began as monk, then switch to pally), and you can waltz though hell without sunscreen.
A paladin had to blow up 5 of his precious 7-8 feats to affor the shocktrooper combo.
I never used any of that tactical crap; 3.5 Power Attack w/two-hander and Extra Smiting = KaB*OO*m. (I'm a firm believer in "the K.I.S.S. principle": keep it simple, stupid.) That, and Combat Reflexes with a glaive. Motored through Living Greyhawk "Core-Special" death-mods like a juggernaut. Beginning stats in LG were mediocre; 15 CHA as a half-elf, raised it three times; STR 14, other stats 14s and lower.
I'd be Enlarged, and had a PC ally Dwarven Defender standing on a corner-edge of my 4-square. Yikes, we were a destructive combo. Enemy casters would see these two tanks and unload their will-save magic, and we'd both laugh it off every time, then do the Bruce Lee finger-wiggle.
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Softball, my ass. LG Core-specials at APL8+ were called "death-mods" for a reason, and IUZ Regionals were even worse. You did not play those mods unless you were fully prepared to run into the worst stuff imaginable. And Shieldlands-region judges ("DMs") were not known for refraining from dishing out the pain and TPK'ing tables (very rarely did a 'con go by without at least one TPK).
Substandard PCs, my ass. My guy was forcing massive-damage fort-saves 90% of time at 10th (MD was rule in LG), and the DD ally had almost 200hp. We knew what we were doing, and built our boys good 'n proper. IIRC, my saves were +22/+18/+20 when LG closed down as I leveled to 12th. Anybody with a lick of sense avoided the expense of +3 weapons in favor of more utilitarian butt-rescuing items like Stones of Good Luck and prayer-beads.
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Any monster with a sliver of intelligence will just walk around a DD, making fun of his crippling inability to walk and chew gum at the same time. :)
Sure, come on into the shredder: we promise not to dish out over 100pts on the first two AoOs. (Cross fingers behind back.)
G = Glaive
D = Dwarf
P = Paladin
S = Spikes
GGGGGGGDDD
GGGGGGGDDD
GGSSSSSDDD
GGSSSSSSGG
GGSSPPSSGG
GGSSPPSSGG
GGSSSSSSGG
GGSSSSSSGG
GGGGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGGGG
Bottle up a cavern? No problem. My party's casters and archers are safe from the horde pouring in. DD is Hasted and Raging and prowling from corner to corner of my "box" like a pitbull who can't wait to slip the leash; he only locks his knees if bullrushed by something Huge or bigger.
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One of the other 3.5 nasties was the Divine Might feat. Spend a turning attempt in order to gain Cha bonus to all damage rolls for the round.Ah! That's what my guy's other feat was. Got a lot of juice out of that, and the Nobility domain from the single cleric level.
I'll figure out exactly how nasty a Pathfinder paladin can be, as I am going to be playing a Hospitaller variant as a sub character in a coming game.
Hosp has slower Smite advancement. IMO the core version paladin is the strongest and most flexible.
This is still a saving-throw game at high-level -- I'd rather take 80pts of damage at 10th than be blinded; so, get your saves up, stay on your feet while others are "being dealt cards", rescue them, pound the tar out of the bad guys....Miller-time.
tactical crap
The "tactical crap" was needed if you wanted to add damage to the power attack without being sure of miss anaything posing a threat. I guess you could do it - just subtracting 3-4 points at max.
This was essentially my point - in 3.5 -4 means +8 damage two handed. In Pathfinder means +12. of course this happens later in level in some istance, but in any case you gain the same losing less.
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This was essentially my point - in 3.5 -4 means +8 damage two handed. In Pathfinder means +12. of course this happens later in level in some istance, but in any case you gain the same losing less.
In Pathfinder, the progression is slower. In 3.5, one could do -4/+8 at 4th level. At 13th, a multiclass paladin with BAB:11 gorking a full-BAB Power Attack is looking at something like 6(STR) +22(PA) +10(smite) +6(DivM) +4(enh) +2(morale) +2(misc other-type bonus) = ~52 before he even touches the dice. If he's a lance guy and summons his gryphon, triple it.
Things are easy to hit when a Dwarven Defender with an urgosh is always tripping them right into my threat. Full-BAB blotto.
In 3.5, are you sure is a good idea at level 4 take a -4 to hit?
at 13th, + 22 PA is -11 to hit. In PF is +12 for a -4.
Shock trooper? All the penalty from power attack are transfered to AC
he said didn't use "tactical crap"
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Well, that's his problem...my most powerful build included a half orc barbarian, frenzied berserker with headlong rush, a valorous weapon, shock trooper and weapon expert.
On a charge, my character dealt an amazing 260 damage wqithout even touching the dice, and then, it was around 300... of course, lvl 20
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In 3.5, are you sure is a good idea at level 4 take a -4 to hit?
If they're prone -- it's free.
"Trip-barbarians" with chains were a holy terror.
Me? I waited until I had more bonuses squared away.
At 13th, + 22 PA is -11 to hit. In PF is +12 for a -4.
Which means, on my two best attacks versus a tripped demon in a Protection zone (among other things going in my favor), I'm going to blow half the dice over what I need on two main Haste attacks, and scootch by on the worst iterative, and do about ~22 less than I used to if the 3rd now hits.
The 3.5 example build above actually isn't the twinkiest imaginable. I knew ahead of time that LG was winding down, and made a character which "hauled forward" a lot of damage by sacrificing spellcasting. While meta-gamed in advance, by sheer coincidence, every mod I played "worked" in terms of it also in roleplaying terms:
Levels 1 and 2: Half-elf "Acolyte of Heironeous" (monk): Good-looking and dumb as a brick. Pick up Evasion, Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes; Intimidate and Diplomacy to 5 ranks. ...got my ass kicked in combat due to low AC. "The plains of the Shieldlands are littered with the bones of dead 2nd-level monks!"
Level 3: Cleric; Nobility and War domains. Suit-up in full-plate; combats don't hurt so much anymore. Last mod I play before leveling to 4th we meet an Avatar of (coincidentally) my deity, who urges greater devotion to the cause.
Levels 4 and 5: Paladin. CHA>16>18 w/Cloak, Divine Grace, Things are starting to kick. Top off Intimidate and Diplo to 8 ranks. Last mod I played before leveling to 6th I find out I am wanted by the law in Shieldlands for having vouched for the bona-fides of a guy who turned out to be pirate. I decided spending half a year ("26TUs" in prison wasn't my idea of fun.
Levels 6-10: Met prereqs.... Outcast Champion 1-5. Trade paladin smite damage advancement, spells and mount for Avenging Strike and even more massive bonuses to saving throws. Avenging Strike CHA bonus to attack stacks with Smite bonuses to attack. Mwahahaha.... +5d6 x7/day.
Level 11: Pious Templar. ...last mod played before leveling to 12th was the LG campaign finale. Did a character-career maximum 117pts in a single chop: no crit, no spirited; just straight up massive numerical bonuses and 2d10 + a heaping fistful of extra d6s. One-smack dropped that demon with big, bloody Xs in its eyes. Full-up to insta-dead.
Module reward....it's a mystery! You have a choice to switch allegiance to the new demigod who "ascended" after the penultimate battle against the hordes of Iuz. You know that he is lawful-neutral; you do not know what his domains will be. I elected "No" (because "Mr. H" has been very good to me with the Nobility domain, and I need WF:Longsword to remain character-legal for Pious Templar. Wahl it turns out that the new guy would have had Favored Weapon:Glaive, and he also had the war domain...and guess what I fought with, while my longsword was so unused that it and its scabbard were rusted together? (Had I accepted, I would have immediately picked up WS:Glaive and Melee Weapon Mastery:Slashing from Fighter1 at 12th, then cheesed it further with Slashing Fury at 15th.)
Yeah....it's probably a good idea that campaign quit, because the character was sick enough without crying about another 50% power-scaling from MWM & SF. Even though the build feat-starved, I can't even remember what half the things I had were because I used them so rarely. PA, Divine Might, Extra Smite...all I needed.
Me? I waited until I had more bonuses squared away.
What I said above.
Which means, on my two best attacks versus a tripped demon in a Protection zone (among other things going in my favor), I'm going to blow half the dice over what I need on two main Haste attacks, and scootch by on the worst iterative, and do about ~22 less than I used to if the 3rd now hits.
-11 to hit. explain pls.
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What's to explain? -11 is easy to overcome when you stack Smite and Nobility domain bonuses with situational bonuses like a tripped baddie laying prone in front of you and you'll all in a Magic Circle of Bad Guy Emasculation or whatever the wizards and clerics are calling it today.
"Here's the wind-up! *BAAMM*"
What's to explain? -11 is easy to overcome when you stack Smite and Nobility domain bonuses with a situational bonuses like a tripped baddie laying prone in front of you and you'll all in a Magic Circle of Bad Guy Emasculation or whatever the wizards and clerics are calling it today.
"Here's the wind-up! *BAAMM*"
in 3.5 smite is ONE attack. A big bad guy AOO, a miss chance, anything can make it waste it.
I'm glad you enjoy an imaginative style in combat - a thing I totally endorse and a lot of people simply saying that "X is unplayable" should consider. But the mere single smite attack is too weak to be compared with the pathfinder version.
Not to mention Aura of Justice.
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I had five Smites and seven Avenging Strikes, and usually employed them simultaneously. Most of the time I never used them all -- things were usually dead before then.
In Pathfinder, with the raw power output dialed down somewhat, combats will last longer, and so "long smites" will be seen as "necessary".
-- It definitely lets you play a viable-concept paladin who is not a 2H Power Attacker (refer my halfling archer earlier in the thread).
I'm glad you enjoy an imaginative style in combat - a thing I totally endorse and a lot of people simply saying that "X is unplayable" should consider.
Sure. I could build a dwarf druid and a half-orc bard who are both positively scary.
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Well, that's his problem...my most powerful build included a half orc barbarian, frenzied berserker with headlong rush, a valorous weapon, shock trooper and weapon expert.
Frenzied berserkers were, uh, indiscriminate, and LG banned them for that reason.
Example: Drop-trap separates the party, FB and a few other PCs fall in. FB nicks his leg on a stake, blows his will save and frenzies. Where's the bad guys ! Gotta kill! Gotta kill now! Orcs? Goblins? Hey...who are you??? Rawrrr.... Oh, dear; sorry Mr. Pelorite, I promise to regret your death when I shake it off....
"In on our next cut-scene, all you can see is a blur of body-parts and clerical vestments flying around in a chain-blender, mostly obscured by a pink mist!"
...Running out of prey in the pit, he spies the other PCs up top, makes his jump check and goes after them too, with foam running out of both corners of his mouth and one eyeball pointed straight ahead and the other wandering off to the side.
Yeeg...
I had five Smites and seven Avenging Strikes, and usually employed them simultaneously.
Even more risky vs miss chances, am I wrong?
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I had five Smites and seven Avenging Strikes, and usually employed them simultaneously.Even more risky vs miss chances, am I wrong?
But I had more of them, and my damage was higher. I didn't have to "save" them for a boss (LG mods were sneaky; very often you didn't know who the most deadly opponent was; the mod-writers would also do things like make the 1st encounter horrific, counting upon players to not use their best limited-use abilities). Additionally, I could multiclass like crazy and take multiple instances of Extra Smiting.
Given a situation that an extra 20hp damage "ahead of curve" instra-drops opponents rather than leaving them with ~10 and a Pounce/Improved Grab/Rake/Rake/Rend/Poison attack at their disposal, I'd rather have the more powerful single attack Smite than a long-term weaker one in that circumstance.
As I said previously, all in all they're about the same from a "power gamer" perspective.
How many? an high level full attack is 5 blows or more.
How can you compare just a single blow versus a double damage smite vs dragons and undead?
My experience in play is just different. Maybe I'm biased by aura of justice and a big group.
Moreover, for me a -2/+4 is very different from a -4/+4 at low levels.
Finally, I wonder how many extra smite you could take AND take combat feats AND the awesome charisma to damages. all of this multiclassing.
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How many? an high level full attack is 5 blows or more.Who needed a full-attack? I was one-shotting 'em with AoOs.
Finally, I wonder how many extra smite you could take AND take combat feats AND the awesome charisma to damages. all of this multiclassing.
<shrug> At 10th, my guy was a Monk2/cler1/Pal2/OutC5 with 18 CHA and a ramped Eagle's Splendor or something similar getting him to 22 or 24 most of the time. Saving-throws in the ionosphere. .... Before we open the door, buff party with Nobility (3.5 version) domain power: +2 morale hit/dmg...bard-in-a-can. As the door is opened, Enlarge. After that, it was just goin'-to-work with 20' reach, combat-reflexes, Divine Power, etc. If anything got too nasty to handle "normally", Smite-Avenge, and it was out cold.
God, that was a cool build. Best saves in LG, phenomenal on-demand power.
How did you get full level to smite damage?
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How did you get full level to smite damage?
In my particular case (see build progression several posts above this one), I didn't. I traded it for +5d6 Avenging Strike (a situational Charisma-based attack power similar to Smite) from five levels of the Races of Destiny prestige-class Outcast Champion.
"Kitchen-sink attack" involved something like near 50pts of numerical damage (full-BAB yadda-yadda), 2d10 (Enlarged w/ gauntlets granting upsized weapon use w/o penalty: Large Glaive 2d8>2d10) +1d6 (EvOut bane) +1d6 (acid) +5d6 Avenging Strike +1d6 (Belt of Champions) +2d6 (Holy)
It was a crapload of dice, averaging ~45pts by themselves before the numerical bonuses. A full-blown "Kitchen Sink" versus Evil Outsider averaged 95pts.
I had three "Kitchen Sinks", two more slightly weaker, and two more slightly weaker. Then it was basic 2d10+2d6 + usual buffs, STR, etc., and lower PA rating yielding 45ish a pop -- which was hardly bad in anyone's book for 11th level.
I will attest to Mike's assessment of Shield Lands modules. You learn quickly in the shield lands. My 2nd character (and highest, I unfortunately started late so I only got to 6 before they shut it down) was a wizard with 14 con and toughness.
That was a good time, I still to this day am a proud member of Team Halfling (Table of 6 halflings. It was great, NO ONE spoke halfling.)
What about a feat that adds 1 level to your effective Paladin level for determining your Smite properties (but not above your total class level)? It would sometimes give you one more Smite per day... just only on a handful of levels. It'd also obviously be for multiclass characters but I'm having a hard time imagining this as something that breaks those characters.
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Living Greyhawk was the best gamer-run d20 con system ever, virtually self-sustaining.
I can't think of one thing that shouldn't be higher on Paizo's agenda (aside from possibly seizing the mantle of D&D from WOTC) than getting the regional-exclusive system going again. Regional exclusivity encouraged a lot of writing and a lot of player mobility, not to mention local flavor.
How did you get full level to smite damage?In my particular case (see build progression several posts above this one), I didn't. I traded it for +5d6 Avenging Strike (a situational Charisma-based attack power similar to Smite) from five levels of the Races of Destiny prestige-class Outcast Champion.
"Kitchen-sink attack" involved something like near 50pts of numerical damage (full-BAB yadda-yadda), 2d10 (Enlarged w/ gauntlets granting upsized weapon use w/o penalty: Large Glaive 2d8>2d10) +1d6 (EvOut bane) +1d6 (acid) +5d6 Avenging Strike +1d6 (Belt of Champions) +2d6 (Holy)
It was a crapload of dice, averaging ~45pts by themselves before the numerical bonuses. A full-blown "Kitchen Sink" versus Evil Outsider averaged 95pts.
I had three "Kitchen Sinks", two more slightly weaker, and two more slightly weaker. Then it was basic 2d10+2d6 + usual buffs, STR, etc., and lower PA rating yielding 45ish a pop -- which was hardly bad in anyone's book for 11th level.
You took few levels in Paladin. You had neligible smite damage. part of the damage is from equipment. How this is supposed to be e a comparison between the old and new paladin?
3.5 also had feats that allowed 2 classes to stack for certain class abilities. For example there was a feat that allowed a multiclass paladin/ranger to count both classes for favored enemy, smite, lay on hands, and counted the animal companion HD as part of the bonded mount.
I still don't get how the old paladin is better if you had to multiclass it.
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(Where are you getting the impression I ever said it was better? Read the whole thread.)
The multiclass build wasn't better per se in terms of eventual damage even versus 3.5 paladin; it just front-loaded saves and damage because I knew the campaign was ending. Outcast Champion was a 5-level PRC for half-elves and half-orcs only; and only high-CHA half-elves could really juice it. But it's only five levels. A straight paladin played to, say, level 15, would be stronger -- he'd have spells and a mount; I had neither.
Believe it or not, raw damage wasn't the initial purpose of the multiclass build, it was maximum saves while still being viable.
-- Finger of Death was popular with Iuz clerics; and it was a common way for Shieldlands characters to lose levels if not irrevocable character loss (which could happen, and did, in Iuz Metaregional mods; one party only escaped TPK/perma-loss because the wizard's weasel familiar bit a finger off every corpse and ran away with them).
Living Greyhawk was the best gamer-run d20 con system ever, virtually self-sustaining.
I can't think of one thing that shouldn't be higher on Paizo's agenda (aside from possibly seizing the mantle of D&D from WOTC) than getting the regional-exclusive system going again. Regional exclusivity encouraged a lot of writing and a lot of player mobility, not to mention local flavor.
I would sooner see PFS go away than have it region run like LG. While there are positives to such, I believe they are far outweighed by the negatives.
Your very stories about meatgrinder modules makes my point for me.
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Living Greyhawk was the best gamer-run d20 con system ever, virtually self-sustaining.
I can't think of one thing that shouldn't be higher on Paizo's agenda (aside from possibly seizing the mantle of D&D from WOTC) than getting the regional-exclusive system going again. Regional exclusivity encouraged a lot of writing and a lot of player mobility, not to mention local flavor.
I would sooner see PFS go away than have it region run like LG. While there are positives to such, I believe they are far outweighed by the negatives.
Your very stories about meatgrinder modules makes my point for me.
(You think there aren't going to be meatgrinder mods in Pathfinder when feats like the Vital Strike path aren't teasing the writers?)
The Shieldlands region was on the border of Iuz (orc-held wastes); it was where you wanted to be if you enjoyed playing tanks, and especially paladins on mounts. It was also adjacent to Highfolk, elven woodlands and bogs full of undead. Other regions were city-centric and very rogue-, monk-, and diplomeister friendly. There was a region where elves were slaves.
-- All regions were different, and that's what made it great. There were more mods, more mod-writers, more conventions.
There was enough for customization; i.e., you did not have to play Core Specials or Iuz Metaregionals mods if you didn't want to.
And if you think it was all-dice-all-the-time, you're wrong about that, too. Best mod I ever played was pure roleplay at APL10; DM said right at the beginning, "If you get into a fight, you're doing something wrong". We had a blast.
I think the best mod I ever played was the Iuz metaregional Madhouse, and that had pretty much zero combat. Needed a good DM to run though, of which the one I had for it did a fantastic job.
I definitely do miss some aspects of the region-specific writing, but I don't miss the TU system, or the fact that mods could only be run in certain areas. For most people, travel for RPGs just isn't something that's feasible. My normal group of friends are lucky to find a day to even play anymore.
The mods (well, at least shield lands ones) definitely needed better quality control. They *really* got adversarial towards the end IMHO, It really felt like it devolved into "oh yeah, let's see them deal with this!"
I ran an Intro mod once for the group (Team Halfling) that pitted first level characters against a shadow (I want to say it was a shadow at least, it was certainly something unacceptable to be throwing at 1st level PCs, who lack the tools to deal with incorporeal foes). The mod author's justification for that being acceptable was "If you ask the half-orc paladin, he will allow you to borrow his bastard sword so you can hurt it."
It was a table of all small characters. That's like a fullblade to them.
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I think the best mod I ever played was the Iuz metaregional Madhouse, and that had pretty much zero combat. Needed a good DM to run though, of which the one I had for it did a fantastic job.
Was that the one where you infiltrated the evil cult, went through initiation, then cavorted with demons and succubi before the portal to Hell while they tempted you? (All the while the DM was keeping track of any slip a PC did, and if anybody got 15 checkmarks, they fell to evil.)
And, the Beatstick of Pain, oh man....
I don't miss the TU system, or the fact that mods could only be run in certain areas. For most people, travel for RPGs just isn't something that's feasible.
The TU system existed to encourage people to play more than one character. Cores could be played anywhere. Adjacent region mods could be played at "co-op" cons. Even though if was typical that you could only play one or two region's mods, the exclusivity really encouraged writing.
I predicted that the Living system would die within a year after Living Forgotten Realms (4e) restructured into larger regions with fewer mods that everyone could play. I was right: the uniqueness was gone, authorship declined, most players disliked the new system, and the network of cons disappeared.
The mods (well, at least shield lands ones) definitely needed better quality control. They *really* got adversarial towards the end IMHO, It really felt like it devolved into "oh yeah, let's see them deal with this!"
The Shieldlands Triad's storyline was that the forces of Iuz would aggressively reinvade the Shieldlands during the final season, leading to the penultimate battle at the final con with the fate of the Shieldlands hanging in the balance -- if a majority of tables failed to beat a series of brutal mods, evil would win and the entire region be destroyed and rendered uninhabitable.
Given the imminent end of the campaign and a shifting emphasis toward Nietzschean struggle weeding the true heroes from the also-rans at high-level tables, it was a hard time to be creating a new, 1st-level character. "Untiered encounters" became common, and cons featured Battle Royales where tables were "joined" at the edges (meaning PCs could leave the battlemap to a lower-teired group or a higher-teired group. Occasionally a powerful character from a high-level table would briefly swing through to assist.
Living Greyhawk was the best gamer-run d20 con system ever, virtually self-sustaining.
I can't think of one thing that shouldn't be higher on Paizo's agenda (aside from possibly seizing the mantle of D&D from WOTC) than getting the regional-exclusive system going again. Regional exclusivity encouraged a lot of writing and a lot of player mobility, not to mention local flavor.
I would sooner see PFS go away than have it region run like LG. While there are positives to such, I believe they are far outweighed by the negatives.
Your very stories about meatgrinder modules makes my point for me.
(You think there aren't going to be meatgrinder mods in Pathfinder when feats like the Vital Strike path aren't teasing the writers?)
No, but I think there won't be the adversarial reaction of "oh yeah, you twinks stomped my last module, let's see you stomp this". I assume Paizo will maintain better editorial control using professional writers, and spare us crap like happened in the latter days of LG.
I wrote a module for LG myself (County of Urnst regional). It was quite well regarded, and had one encounter in it which was very vicious if you chose not to roleplay it. However I didn't write the module to challenge a bunch of twinks, and leave the poor role players in the dust.
The Shieldlands region was on the border of Iuz (orc-held wastes); it was where you wanted to be if you enjoyed playing tanks, and especially paladins on mounts. It was also adjacent to Highfolk, elven woodlands and bogs full of undead. Other regions were city-centric and very rogue-, monk-, and diplomeister friendly. There was a region where elves were slaves.
I don't need a breakdown, I played enough LG to get to 16th level on my main and 7th on my secondary.
-- All regions were different, and that's what made it great. There were more mods, more mod-writers, more conventions.
Which meant quality varied all over the place with modules being extremely hit or miss. One region would be Monty Haul, the next would be like jumping into a mulching machine.
There was enough for customization; i.e., you did not have to play Core Specials or Iuz Metaregionals mods if you didn't want to.
You are making a gross assumption that out of region modules were a reasonable option in all areas. On the east coast, sure, you could drive an hour and voila, you can play a whole new region. There are other areas where you have a drive for a day to have a shot at a different region. In that case your options were Core, metaregional, and regional.
And if you think it was all-dice-all-the-time, you're wrong about that, too. Best mod I ever played was pure roleplay at APL10; DM said right at the beginning, "If you get into a fight, you're doing something wrong". We had a blast.
I rather doubt you played more LG than I did. I saw modules of all manners of flavors. However the flavor variety started to diminish as time went on and the 'us vs. them' mentality of Triads became prevalent. This also drove out the role players in favor of the twinks who could take what was thrown at them. Of course this caused the effect to snowball.
Let me explain why I bailed on LG. In last module I played, at one point you are traveling down a road with your party displaying a banner (your mission). You, out of the blue with no clue, are smacked by two maximized 10th level fireballs from spell turrets. This was APL 8(might have been 6 actually, it's been some years now). Mind you when I say there were no clues, I mean none. No scorched earth. No BBQed deer. No charred remains of travelers. Nope, nothing. I cannot imagine there was any way to get around this. Maybe if I read the module, there was some trick, but we didn't know it.
Most of the party died on the spot. A few made enough saves to barely live through it. We all decided the mission was not worth our lives and stopped the module there. In fact my character took a leak on the banner and left it on the charred ground to signal our disgust with the module.
So do I get to consider that an aberrant module written by some lousy writer who was banned from doing it again? No. The writer was part of the Triad(in fact he had been part of a different Triad before he moved to our region, so it wasn't only our problem). Since he was Triad, we could also not appeal how dumb and broken the module was (spell turrets couldn't feature metamagic BTW). This is why I have no desire to see the regional nonsense again. It will very likely devolve into local tinpot dictators with a desire to crush the players who optimize (er, I mean challenge them). This will leave the others pulped in the wake.
Right now PFS has a good variety of people, and you don't see the necessary optimization that LG devolved into. I see lots of people focusing on quirky builds which are entertaining to game with. If the meatgrinders start up, those people will go away. It happened in LG and would happen in PFS.
I predicted that the Living system would die within a year after Living Forgotten Realms (4e) restructured into larger regions with fewer mods that everyone could play. I was right: the uniqueness was gone, authorship declined, most players disliked the new system, and the network of cons disappeared.
LFR is still pretty busy out here, but I would say it is in decline to some degree(it's not nearly as busy as it was 2 years ago). I would attribute most of the decline to people not being too fond of 4e as much as anything. Most of the loss 4e is experiencing here is migration to PFS, and that certainly doesn't have a regional system. As such I would disagree that the change in regional system had anything to do with it.
I think the best mod I ever played was the Iuz metaregional Madhouse, and that had pretty much zero combat. Needed a good DM to run though, of which the one I had for it did a fantastic job.Was that the one where you infiltrated the evil cult, went through initiation, then cavorted with demons and succubi before the portal to Hell while they tempted you? (All the while the DM was keeping track of any slip a PC did, and if anybody got 15 checkmarks, they fell to evil.
No, it was the one where you were in the wierd mansion. Basically, the module was about, 3 pages that said "here's kind of what's supposed to happen. DM: Wing it."
Given the imminent end of the campaign and a shifting emphasis toward Nietzschean struggle weeding the true heroes from the also-rans at high-level tables, it was a hard time to be creating a new, 1st-level character.
Oh, I definitely understand that aspect of it, but I'm talking about an Intro mod. Considering that no one higher than 1st could ever play in it, "untiered" encounters and such are imho inappropriate. As far as I'm concerned, your 3 intro mods were to get you past the "lucky crit, you're dead" phase of the game.
I predicted that the Living system would die within a year after Living Forgotten Realms (4e) restructured into larger regions with fewer mods that everyone could play. I was right: the uniqueness was gone, authorship declined, most players disliked the new system, and the network of cons disappeared.
Well... on this one I think more has to do with the fact that 4th edition was a terrible system, and due to excessively limited material people were presented with at the start, it became.
"Alright. Your 4th level characters walk into the room. The flickering torchlight barely lights the full extent of the room. Dank musk fills the air as you peer in to see... 50 goblins. 3 of them appear to have staves (the omnipresent goblin hexer). In each corner of the room, there is a crossbow turret. In the center of the room, there is inexplicably another 100 foot pit. The goblins all stare at you with hunger in their eyes."
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It was a shadow and I want to say a werewolf in the last (and only) encounter. An investiation mod that banked all the CR until the end. The paladin had a +1 silver longsword that he'd loan out if asked, which only vaguely helps at all. The mod was poorly written and not at all a good idea for a regular mod, let alone an intro mod.
There was a lot of fun to be had in the shield lands, and then some people got busy and it got far too combat heavy and story lite which I was sad to see.
(Spell Turrets are themselves completely horrible design and should never have been published in a book. Your better off just asking the party if they run away or lay down and die.)
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Let me explain why I bailed on LG. In last module I played, at one point you are traveling down a road with your party displaying a banner (your mission). You, out of the blue with no clue, are smacked by two maximized 10th level fireballs from spell turrets. This was APL 8(might have been 6 actually, it's been some years now). Mind you when I say there were no clues, I mean none. No scorched earth. No BBQed deer. No charred remains of travelers. Nope, nothing. I cannot imagine there was any way to get around this. Maybe if I read the module, there was some trick, but we didn't know it.
WTF? -- That's a 120pts worth of damage.
What region was that in? Was it a "normal" mod, or a regional or Special or convention "one-off"?
(I suspect there's more to this than that, and you probably had a terrible judge.)
I rather doubt you played more LG than I did.
Not that it's a pissing contest, or that more hours logged equates to expertise or authority, but I wouldn't be so quick to assume this. Assuming your list of characters above is exhaustive, I know literally dozens of people who played a lot more LG than that. It was easier if you lived someplace where a half-day's drive will put you in a dozen different regions.
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Paladins, while somewhat restrictive, are freaking mighty. In this edition you don't want to be evil, because a paladin will come along eventually, and it will destroy you. I was running one and we ran into an anti-paladin and a Lich, the anti-paladin was my level but she was a vampire, the Lich was the same level, and over the course of 3 turns I destroyed them both. I was admittedly playing with the item creation rules, but that doesn't change it much.
I don't mean to dig up an ancient thread but I was searching for extra smite myself and, I agree with a previously mentioned point about games that have lots of lower level mobs.
I don't support Extra Smite or Extra Challenge, but I feel like feats that expanded the uses would be a good idea, like being able to target more than 1 critter per use of smite. I don't think it'd be that broken to, at say level 8, be able to target 2 goblins with your use of smite.
Perhaps being able to target 2 creatures, but treating your paladin level as -3 or something.
The Extra Smite feat in 3.5 would add 1 additional Smite attack. The change provided by PFRPG to the Smite Evil ability made this feat Not Applicable, as it no longer has a set duration in either rounds or number of attacks.
All the Extra XXX feats provided in the core rulebook and the APG either
A) give you new opportunities to get one of your class' special abilities (Discovery, Hex, Rage Power, Revelation, Rogue Talent, Mercy),
B) add rounds to a duration (Performance, Rage) or
C) add a number of times you can use specific "actions" (swift, standard or attacks) that do not last more than a round (Bombs, Channel, Ki, Lay on Hands)
None of these apply to Smite Evil, ergo no Extra Smite Evil feat.
Fricking well said Black Raven...