Creative Director
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It being finished and folks being able to read it and play it.So, Paizocon...now that it's done with, let's talk Strength of Thousands. : )
What're you most looking forward to from this adventure path?
...Yes, I'd like that too.
Anything interesting that stands out to you?
Also, do you need a break from questions? I can back off for a bit if you want.
I don't need a break at all! It's just that I'm not the one who outlined Strength Of Thousands or wrote any of it. I did just step in to help develop part 5 of the whole thing, but that was a weird and awkward thing to come in to help that way, so I'm currently just hoping that I saved Ron time and didn't screw it all up in the long term.
What's interesting that stands out to me, though, is that it's got a lot of new authors on it. Which is cool, but has made the task of developing it more complicated than normal. The one I developed did NOT have a new author, though, and it's the one that's the LEAST Mwangi of all 6 parts on top of that, so I really don't feel like the best person to ask about it.
AKA: Ron Lundeen is your guy for "Strength of Thousands"! :-)
Ron Lundeen is your guy for "Strength of Thousands"! :-)
Hm. : )
So what's the better way to get in contact with him? Through Paizo's PM system or through Discord?
Also, what about contacting you via Discord?
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Creative Director
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Ron Lundeen is your guy for "Strength of Thousands"! :-)Hm. : )
So what's the better way to get in contact with him? Through Paizo's PM system or through Discord?
Also, what about contacting you via Discord?
Post a question in the Strength of Thousands forum, I guess.
We don't maintain a Discord where staff is active. We just did that last weekend for Paizocon, and we might do it again for next Paizocon. We might do something like that for Gen Con as well, but I'm not sure.
But at non-convention times, the Paizo discord server isn't active.
Same goes for me. During a convention, I'm always eager to answer questions via Discord. I'm not sure what was going on but over the last weekend, I got zero questions until Monday, though, and one of the first people to ask there said that my AMA on the Paizo server wasn't visible to them until Monday. I have no idea if that was just them or server wide, but ... yeah, missed opportunity I guess.
As for me, I prefer to keep contacting me on Paizo topics to Paizo.com, either via PM or via these messageboards. And that means the only time to contact me through Discord is during Paizocon or some other theoretical convention where I'm active as part of Paizo.
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Ave Jacobasaurus,
Where in Golarion would be the best place to stage a Monty Python and the Holy Grail-based adventure (or even, to a lesser extent, 'straight' Arthurian fantasy)? In case it matters, prioritize natural (and supernatural) environment/climate over regional culture (i.e. while an easy answer might be "Golden-Age Taldor", I don't think Taldor ever had that distinctive Albian climate).
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Creative Director
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Ave Jacobasaurus,
Where in Golarion would be the best place to stage a Monty Python and the Holy Grail-based adventure (or even, to a lesser extent, 'straight' Arthurian fantasy)? In case it matters, prioritize natural (and supernatural) environment/climate over regional culture (i.e. while an easy answer might be "Golden-Age Taldor", I don't think Taldor ever had that distinctive Albian climate).
For a Monty Python thing, most groups of players already have you covered. No matter where you set your adventure, no matter what system you use, they'll hook you up with the air speed of unladen swallows and dynamite rabbits.
On a more serious note, we don't really have a specific part of Golarion that's coded specifically toward Arthurian fantasy... by design. There's a lot of places in the Inner Sea Region, but not enough to cover every sub-genre of fantasy, and we weren't that interested in exploring what we felt was a done-to-death D&D trope of knights in shining armor type thing.
Taldor is probably the place that comes the closest, although I could see areas like Mendev, Brevoy, Lastwall, Molthune, and parts of the River Kingdoms being able to serve here with a bit of tinkering.
Hi James,
In response to a post in another thread, not wanting to derail that thread:
Iron Gods ... was intended to be a trilogy, with parts 1–2, 3–4, and 5–6 each comprising a different element of that trilogy. Alas, I think that the primary takeaway from that experiment was similar to the primary takeaway from Kingmaker—that when it comes to Adventure Paths, most folks prefer it to stay on one story from start to finish.
I know you've commented on wanting to re-do Second Darkness to better manage the transition (and re-portray elves).
Can you think of other APs that were supposed to be either more a collection of individual adventures or several arcs with a through line as opposed to 1-6 all focused on a single story?
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Creative Director
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Hi James,
In response to a post in another thread, not wanting to derail that thread:
Iron Gods ... was intended to be a trilogy, with parts 1–2, 3–4, and 5–6 each comprising a different element of that trilogy. Alas, I think that the primary takeaway from that experiment was similar to the primary takeaway from Kingmaker—that when it comes to Adventure Paths, most folks prefer it to stay on one story from start to finish.I know you've commented on wanting to re-do Second Darkness to better manage the transition (and re-portray elves).
Can you think of other APs that were supposed to be either more a collection of individual adventures or several arcs with a through line as opposed to 1-6 all focused on a single story?
Nope. Iron Gods was really an outlier there, an experiment. For all the other Adventure Paths ... at least all of the ones I was directly involved in, the idea was to present one story or situation. Kingmaker being a sandbox is an exception, but it's also not meant to be a trilogy. A sandbox is a collection of things that let the players and GM make their own story.
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On a more serious note, we don't really have a specific part of Golarion that's coded specifically toward Arthurian fantasy... by design. There's a lot of places in the Inner Sea Region, but not enough to cover every sub-genre of fantasy, and we weren't that interested in exploring what we felt was a done-to-death D&D trope of knights in shining armor type thing.
Alright, let me refine/revise/adapt my question a bit, then: Where in Golarion would best represent the climate and distinctive geographic character of the primeval British Isles?
While I'm at it, what might be the best approximation of the American Southwest?
The Kerguelen Islands (I've had a soft spot for them since I was 7 or 8 years old)???
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Creative Director
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Alright, let me refine/revise/adapt my question a bit, then: Where in Golarion would best represent the climate and distinctive geographic character of the primeval British Isles?
While I'm at it, what might be the best approximation of the American Southwest?
The Kerguelen Islands (I've had a soft spot for them since I was 7 or 8 years old)???
I guess some of the islands off the coast of Varisia, or the islands of Western New Thassilon, if I had to pick somewhere on the Inner Sea Map. Although those regions are more officially inspired by the Pacific Northwest.
Best approximation of the American Southwest is probably the Cinderlands of Varisia or Belkzen for terrain and topography.
Post a question in the Strength of Thousands forum, I guess.Ron Lundeen is your guy for "Strength of Thousands"! :-)Hm. : )
So what's the better way to get in contact with him? Through Paizo's PM system or through Discord?
Also, what about contacting you via Discord?
I'll do that just as soon as it exists. In the meantime I'll have to make do. : p
Anyway, I read that said adventure path'll invert many of the magic school tropes. Would you elaborate on those?
Where is Slab Hill in relation to the Fogfen? It appears from the map of Otari in "Ruins of Gauntlight" that there's no trail leading to it.
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Creative Director
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Anyway, I read that said adventure path'll invert many of the magic school tropes. Would you elaborate on those?
I'm not sure where you read that or who said it, so without context I can't speak to that further.
Maybe it's speaking to the fact that this is NOT our version of Hogwart's. And you don't stay students the entire time. It's not so much the "go to school" adventure path at all as much as it is the Magaambya adventure path overall, with the PCs starting as students and then becoming teachers and so on. Also, it's closer to a college than a grade school. The expectation is that the PCs and NPCs are adults.
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Creative Director
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I guess some of the islands off the coast of Varisia, or the islands of Western New Thassilon, if I had to pick somewhere on the Inner Sea Map. Although those regions are more officially inspired by the Pacific Northwest.Is this in response to the British Isles, or the Kerguelen?
Both, I guess, since I've never been to either location and know them only from pictures, and the geography and climate look kinda close to where I grew up and where I live now, both of which is actually what inspired that portion fo Golarion.
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Creative Director
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Where is Slab Hill in relation to the Fogfen? It appears from the map of Otari in "Ruins of Gauntlight" that there's no trail leading to it.
I created the map of Otari and its surrounding regions and wrote the gazetteer for Otari, and the expectation was that the other authors would expand on that for their content, since I wrote the gazetteer for Otari months ahead of time so that ALL of the authors would be able to use it.
I don't know what Slab Hill is.
I'm guessing Slab HIll showed up in one of the things I didn't write, and whowever wrote it forgot to contextualize it is all. It certainly doesn't appear in the Otari article I turned over to development.
Feel free to assume that the trail to Slab Hill starts just off the map somewhere, I guess.
And this is also a good reminder that if you DO ask about a location in the world, please contextualize what book that thing appeared in if it's something brand new or obscure, because I don't read everything we publish.
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Creative Director
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Where is Slab Hill in relation to the Fogfen? It appears from the map of Otari in "Ruins of Gauntlight" that there's no trail leading to it.I created the map of Otari and its surrounding regions and wrote the gazetteer for Otari, and the expectation was that the other authors would expand on that for their content, since I wrote the gazetteer for Otari months ahead of time so that ALL of the authors would be able to use it.
I don't know what Slab Hill is.
I'm guessing Slab HIll showed up in one of the things I didn't write, and whowever wrote it forgot to contextualize it is all. It certainly doesn't appear in the Otari article I turned over to development.
Feel free to assume that the trail to Slab Hill starts just off the map somewhere, I guess.
And this is also a good reminder that if you DO ask about a location in the world, please contextualize what book that thing appeared in if it's something brand new or obscure, because I don't read everything we publish.
I didn't realize you did that much work on Otari.
At this point, you must have worked on multiple small towns where heroes start their adventuring careers. How do you get inspiration to find unique things to add to these towns?
For Sandpoint and Otari in particular, I drew deeply on my hometown's history—Point Arena, California. But also sprinkled in lots more fantasy stuff, of course, but on top of it all, the inspiration comes from spending 40 years or so reading horror and fantasy stories and reading D&D adventures and studying how they were created and learning from what did and didn't work, and then combining all of that together in my brain so that hopefully when it comes back out when the time comes to detail a new small town, the end result is fun.
Is there any part of Arcadia based on Cuzco or Tawantinsuyo? Does it have a rainbow flag?
Humbly,
Yawar
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Creative Director
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Is there any part of Arcadia based on Cuzco or Tawantinsuyo? Does it have a rainbow flag?
Humbly,
Yawar
Dunno. The development of Arcadia has largely been handled so far by others.
What’s a likely role for an important Android NPC to end up filling? We haven’t seen too many in official material yet.
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Since the upcoming Book of the Dead has options for players to become one, are there finally going to be options to become a good Undead?
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Creative Director
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What’s a likely role for an important Android NPC to end up filling? We haven’t seen too many in official material yet.
Not in Pathfinder, since they're super rare, and have only made thematic sense to include in Iron Gods, but there could be more showing up elsewhere now that the rules for them are out, and the concept of them being a thing is in the lore backed up by story.
As for what role? Anything that makes sense for the story to need an android. I don't think we're at the point, narratively, in Pathfinder where we can drop in an android innkeeper and then not have the fact that the innkeeper is an android have no relation to it, which is where we're certainly at for the core ancestries and an increasing number of other ancestries.
And to be honest, my personal preference is that if an NPC isn't a human NPC, their ancestry should at least provide SOME element to their role in the story that a human ancestry couldn't provide, whether it be a common one like dwarf or elf or a super obscure one.
Beyond that, my personal preference for fantasy is humanity-facing. If the bulk of the NPCs in the world are human, or very close human analogs (such as you see int he core ancestries), then the more fantastical ancestry options remain fantastical and don't run the risk of being commonplace or unremarkable.
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Creative Director
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Since the upcoming Book of the Dead has options for players to become one, are there finally going to be options to become a good Undead?
We've had good undead for years. They are just very very rare.
We've never really had robust rules for undead PCs at all, because in the previous edition, their huge amount of immunities and lack of 6 ability scores made them difficult, if not impossible, to balance.
Since 2nd edition undead have Constitution scores, and since they aren't blanket-immune to all mind-affecting things and poison and other afflictions, they're more balanced as an option for a PC ancestry.
Those rules will allow for any alignment of undead, I suspect, but they'll come with lore explaining why and how it's uncommon or illogical for some of them to be good aligned while still featuring the tropes that make them popular choices in the first place.
We don't gatelock alignments in 2nd edition for players often, though. When we present options for ancestries we provide guidelines, but there aren't requirements that you play a specific alignment.
That changes for some classes, particularly things like clerics, but that's because their job requires a certain philosophical outlook. But since classes are things your character has agency to choose, having alignment restrictions there are part of the fun (when alignment restrictions make sense—note we've dramatically rolled back alignment restrictions for most classes!). For ancestry, which your character doesn't have agency to choose (that's your choice, not an in-game choice your character makes), it's important for us to NOT hard-code alignments in.
And keep in mind that just because there are rules for undead PCs, and those rules allow any alignment, that doesn't mean suddenly all undead NPCs in the game become equally distributed across all nine alignments. The introduction of player ancestry options for undead won't change the in-world lore for non PC undead. That remains the same—most are evil. Some are not (note that in 2nd edition, void zombies and revenants aren't evil, and ghosts have always been all over the place on alignment).
Since the upcoming Book of the Dead has options for players to become one, are there finally going to be options to become a good Undead?We've had good undead for years. They are just very very rare.
We've never really had robust rules for undead PCs at all, because in the previous edition, their huge amount of immunities and lack of 6 ability scores made them difficult, if not impossible, to balance.
Since 2nd edition undead have Constitution scores, and since they aren't blanket-immune to all mind-affecting things and poison and other afflictions, they're more balanced as an option for a PC ancestry.
Those rules will allow for any alignment of undead, I suspect, but they'll come with lore explaining why and how it's uncommon or illogical for some of them to be good aligned while still featuring the tropes that make them popular choices in the first place.
We don't gatelock alignments in 2nd edition for players often, though. When we present options for ancestries we provide guidelines, but there aren't requirements that you play a specific alignment.
That changes for some classes, particularly things like clerics, but that's because their job requires a certain philosophical outlook. But since classes are things your character has agency to choose, having alignment restrictions there are part of the fun (when alignment restrictions make sense—note we've dramatically rolled back alignment restrictions for most classes!). For ancestry, which your character doesn't have agency to choose (that's your choice, not an in-game choice your character makes), it's important for us to NOT hard-code alignments in.
And keep in mind that just because there are rules for undead PCs, and those rules allow any alignment, that doesn't mean suddenly all undead NPCs in the game become equally distributed across all nine alignments. The introduction of player ancestry options for undead won't change the in-world lore for non PC undead. That remains the same—most are evil. Some are...
Out of curiosity, will the Mortics be touched on at all here? I know it may be a but early to pry for information, just seems like an excellent place to feature them, given their very late entry in PF1.
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Creative Director
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Out of curiosity, will the Mortics be touched on at all here? I know it may be a but early to pry for information, just seems like an excellent place to feature them, given their very late entry in PF1.
You're right... It's a bit early to pry for information. :-)
Stay tuned though; we'll continue to talk about Book of the Dead in the months to come!
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Since 2nd edition undead have Constitution scores, and since they aren't blanket-immune to all mind-affecting things and poison-
Wait, how would beings without metabolisms, or even much biochemistry, be affected by poison?
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Creative Director
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Since 2nd edition undead have Constitution scores, and since they aren't blanket-immune to all mind-affecting things and poison-Wait, how would beings without metabolisms, or even much biochemistry, be affected by poison?
I just double checked and poison's one of those immunities that undead keep from 1st edition, so nevermind there.
How that plays out in balancing an undead player character ancestry isn't my job, so I'll sit back and watch and wait like the rest of us to find out how the design team figures that out. ;-)
If there was interest for a Pathfinder movie, which Adventure Path or story would you consider the best option for the first, introductory movie?
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I thought the recent "Beginner Box" stream with GM JimJam, Gabe Hicks, et. al. was excellent, but it seemed to me they departed from the Beginner Box (BB) rather quickly. Gabe's character, for example, picked up a class feat at second level that isn't in the BB. Do you know if that departure was intentional?
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Creative Director
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If there was interest for a Pathfinder movie, which Adventure Path or story would you consider the best option for the first, introductory movie?
I don't think an Adventure Path is appropriate for a movie at all. They're too big. They'd work better as a long-form mini-series on something like HBO.
As for a potential Pathfinder movie? At this point I'd be 100% self-serving and hope for "Malevolence." ;-)
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Creative Director
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I thought the recent "Beginner Box" stream with GM JimJam, Gabe Hicks, et. al. was excellent, but it seemed to me they departed from the Beginner Box (BB) rather quickly. Gabe's character, for example, picked up a class feat at second level that isn't in the BB. Do you know if that departure was intentional?
I wasn't involved at all with that stream, and haven't even had the chance to watch it (I generally don't watch live-play streams of Pathfinder games, to be honest, because they make me weirdly nervous).
But I have to assume the departure is intentional. When you see a live-stream, you're seeing the adventure that's being played, but you're ALSO seeing how a GM adjusts that adventure to fit their style, their interests, and the style and interests of their players. That's really no different than you'd see in any game, though, since GMs are always adjusting adventures to match their table's preferences.
Live-plays are a strange beast in that regard, of course, because what you can't adjust for is ALL of those who'll watch. You can just adjust for those who play, and hope that those who watch will enjoy it.
But that also means that you'll never really get the "raw" form of the adventure as-written by the author in a live-play, unless the GM happens to be the adventure's author. In cases where a GM is great, that's a plus. It can be a minus if the GM isn't great, of course. Whether or not a GM is great though depends on the viewer.
Have you watched Loki yet (assuming you intend to)? What did you think of the design aesthetic of the TVA, specifically:
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Creative Director
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Have you watched Loki yet (assuming you intend to)? What did you think of the design aesthetic of the TVA, specifically:
** spoiler omitted **
I don't have a subscription to Disney +, so no, haven't seen Loki (or any of the Marvel shows or the Mandalorian yet). Since my preference in entertainment skews more toward horror and R-rated type content, my streaming subs are aimed more at Amazon Prime, HBO Max, Paramount +, Shudder, Hulu, and Netflix. It's not so much a question of affordability as it is my own frustration with the increasing fragmentation of competing streaming services, to be honest.
And since my interest in Marvel movies and Star Wars movies is more casual than my interest in other stuff, I've not yet done the dive into Disney +.
I probably will, though, once Moon Knight comes along. Not because I am interested in the chartacter, honestly (I barely know what a Moon Knight is), but because two of my favorite directors, Aaron Moorhead and Justin Benson, are directing several episodes of it. So in my head, my Disney + sub money is voting with my wallet there for them hiring those two to do work on that show. ;-P
But yeah, I've got plenty to watch already on the six streaming services I already use. And that's not even counting Youtube or the Xbox store or Google Play!
EDIT: If/when Disney makes those shows available for rental or purchase on, say, Amazon Prime or Hulu or somewhere other than their platform, I'll grab them up instantly. I just kinda don't really want to subscribe to Disney + at this time.
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Creative Director
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How's Shudder?
Of all the streaming services out there, it's the best deal for horror. No contest. It has a really great mix of new horror, classic horror, mainstream horror, extreme horror, obscure horror, and lots of other stuff. It's my favorite streaming service.
Hi James! I hope you're doing well!
What domains and subdomains would you suggest for Graz'zt in Pathfinder 1e?
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How's Shudder?Of all the streaming services out there, it's the best deal for horror. No contest. It has a really great mix of new horror, classic horror, mainstream horror, extreme horror, obscure horror, and lots of other stuff. It's my favorite streaming service.
Nice.
What's been some favoruite shows/movies you've seen on it?
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Creative Director
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Hi James! I hope you're doing well!
What domains and subdomains would you suggest for Graz'zt in Pathfinder 1e?
Haven't thought much about Graz'zt since I wrote the Demonomicon article for him well over a decade ago, but that article would have included the 3.5 choices I made for him maybe? As for his 1E Pathfinder choices, that design set is much fresher in my mind but still, haven't done much of that stuff (other than the 1E Kingmaker bestiary) for over 3 years.
AKA: I'm pretty rusty on assigning domains to 1st edition demon lords, and here at home I don't have those resources super handy thanks to disorganized shelf syndrome, and it's 8:32 AM on a Friday I'm taking off to not waste some accrued vacation time (coming up on today I was 17 minutes away from the max vacation buildup limit)...
So here's my proto memories and half-assed guesses: Chaos, Evil, Strength, Charm. Subdomains, I guess Demons and Lust? Dunno.
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Creative Director
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How's Shudder?Of all the streaming services out there, it's the best deal for horror. No contest. It has a really great mix of new horror, classic horror, mainstream horror, extreme horror, obscure horror, and lots of other stuff. It's my favorite streaming service.Nice.
What's been some favoruite shows/movies you've seen on it?
The latest thing I saw on it that I enjoyed was an indie movie called "Caveat." "Psycho Goreman" was bizarre and fun. But a great example of how it gets obscure movies out there to see would be "Noroi: The Curse," which is one of the best ever found-footage movies but one that, until Shudder started streaming it, was really tough to get hold of in the States.
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Cyth-V'sug and Treerazer....
Cyth-V'sug is Treerazer's daddy.
....Who is Treerazer's mommy? (I assume Lamasthu unless it's published somewhere or James has that canon in his head.)
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Further, you've said that you designed Treerazer (as a teenager) to, er, 'fix' some of the, hmm, 'aesthetic' design parts for Demogorgon that just didn't fit your fancy -- specifically, to make him a Demon-Dinosaur. So here's my question:
In your Head-Canon (or secret thoughts / ideas), in an alternate cosmology where the D&D Demogorgon could be published (aka used in someone's Homegame) together in the same cosmology as Cyth-V'sug and Treerazer -- what would be the relationship?
-Would Cyth-V'sug have purposely fathered Treerazer specifically for the purpose of using his demon-dinosaur progeny to attack and replace Demogorgon? Making Cyth-V'sug an ancient enemy of Demogorgon?
-Would you change (have created differently) Treerazer to be the offspring of Demogorgon? (And where would Cyth-V'ug fit, if at all, in this creation?)
Would Cyth-V'sug have fathered Treerazer to appease Demogorgon -- as an offering -- making Cyth-V'sug and Demogorgon potential allies vs Graz'zt or Orcus?
Or perhaps something else?
Many Thanks!
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Creative Director
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Cyth-V'sug and Treerazer....
Cyth-V'sug is Treerazer's daddy.
....Who is Treerazer's mommy? (I assume Lamasthu unless it's published somewhere or James has that canon in his head.)
That's currently unrevealed, but in my homebrew, Cyth-V'sug is as well. He's the source of Treerazer, in more of a supernatural, metaphysical way than a biological way.
Further, you've said that you designed Treerazer (as a teenager) to, er, 'fix' some of the, hmm, 'aesthetic' design parts for Demogorgon that just didn't fit your fancy -- specifically, to make him a Demon-Dinosaur. So here's my question:
In your Head-Canon (or secret thoughts / ideas), in an alternate cosmology where the D&D Demogorgon could be published (aka used in someone's Homegame) together in the same cosmology as Cyth-V'sug and Treerazer -- what would be the relationship?
-Would Cyth-V'sug have purposely fathered Treerazer specifically for the purpose of using his demon-dinosaur progeny to attack and replace Demogorgon? Making Cyth-V'sug an ancient enemy of Demogorgon?
-Would you change (have created differently) Treerazer to be the offspring of Demogorgon? (And where would Cyth-V'ug fit, if at all, in this creation?)
Would Cyth-V'sug have fathered Treerazer to appease Demogorgon -- as an offering -- making Cyth-V'sug and Demogorgon potential allies vs Graz'zt or Orcus?
Or perhaps something else?
Many Thanks!
In that homebrew, Obox-ob is the boss of demons, not Demogorgon. Cyth-V'sug and Treerazer don't have any direct ties to Demogorgon, and I wouldn't change that. The thing about Cyth-V'sug and Treerazer is that they were things I created, and I like them as my creations, rather than being side effects of another person's creation. Other than, of course, being inspired by D&D and its 1st edition demon lore in the first place.
In Lost Omens Legends, the atheist healer Kassi Aziril from Rahadoum describes Sarenrae as "a bloody killer in the guise of a healer, willing to murder an entire city rather than deign to explain herself", apparently referring to the Gormuz incident. What would be a good counter argument from a cleric of Sarenrae against this accusation?
Do you think there's an untapped niche for a planetouched heritage?
Random idea: Summon Icon (Incarnate Spell)
Summons the essense of one of the Pathfinder Iconics, who come in to mess things up and leave.
Question: Yes please? Lol
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Do you think there's an untapped niche for a planetouched heritage?
Planetouched is a D&D thing, so I can't speculate there.
Our version of them are the planar scions. As long as we keep creating "families" of outsiders, yes. In fact, I think there's room to deeper dive into things like planar scions for demons, devils, etc. (instead of just saying tiefling) and the same on the celestial side (with one for angels, azatas, etc.), but I don't see that dive happening in this edition since we already have them covered.
But as long as we keep creating other families of planar creatures, like proteans (ganzi), psychopomps (duskwalkers), etc. then yes.
Note that I don't see planar scions coming from one-shot creatures like jyotis or bebiliths or the like.