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I believe I've already stated this, let me restate: They are going to do epic. They are.
Basing any assumptions upon 3.5s version of epic is fallacious, as Paizo has stated they aren't going to do it that way. And the 3.5 version was crap. I love me some epic, but spending 2 hours on one combat was dumb.
We need to come up with ideas of how to do it. Arguing about past editions is not helping.
And no, 20th level will not be the end all level. They are in fact extending it...sort of from what I can glean.
I suspect my players will be reaching post 20 levels before Paizo creates official rules for it. They'll be level 15 in a week or so. I'm contemplating just letting them continue to level normally. The math for magic item costs can easily be extended (+11 weapon = 242k, etc.) as can most other charts.
Any particular reason I'm missing that would make this a problem? Other than needing an extended spell progression list.
I believe I've already stated this, let me restate: They are going to do epic. They are.
And I'm the one accused of having a crystal ball? ;)
Seriously, though: Has that been confirmed by Paizo? If so, does someone have a link? Isn't whether they're worth doing what this entire thread is about?
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I believe I've already stated this, let me restate: They are going to do epic. They are.And I'm the one accused of having a crystal ball? ;)
Seriously, though: Has that been confirmed by Paizo? If so, does someone have a link? Isn't whether they're worth doing what this entire thread is about?
They've said they would do epic but no specific date.
I believe I've already stated this, let me restate: They are going to do epic. They are.And I'm the one accused of having a crystal ball? ;)
Seriously, though: Has that been confirmed by Paizo? If so, does someone have a link? Isn't whether they're worth doing what this entire thread is about?
Check down in this thread. Most of the epic discussion is near the bottom of thread.
http://paizo.com/pathfinder/v5748btpy8g7t/discuss#tabs
Look specifically at James Jacobs comments. Yes, while Paizo has not specifically confirmed or not confirmed Epic rules, what James states in the thread makes it pretty clear to my mind that Paizo will be doing Epic rules at some point.
Isn't whether they're worth doing what this entire thread is about?
Since I created the original post, let me say "YES". Or, at least, it was meant to be a discussion regarding the amount of Paizo-effort/resources that should be committed to the concept of adventuring-past-20th level. The fact that there would be fans for and against such endeavors (and that they'd be vocal on the Internet) was never in question.
However, my attempts to redirect the conversation back on topic failed so I'm considering renaming it "Discusss any random thought & provide any opinion on Epic Rules or lack thereof HERE".
That doesn't really roll off the tongue, however...
Well, since the original question has put forth again ...
Yes, I believe it is worth it.
I like high level / epic play. That said, a few caveats
Regardless our any of our opinions, Paizo understands their customer base best and if they deem that Epic rules are worth their time, they will pursue it. If they don't they won't pursue it. Regardless of each of our personal opinions whether we think there is a need or a requirement for epic rules.
Recent comments by James have strongly implied that Paizo is looking at creating epic rules. That tells me that Paizo believes a market exists for such rules and that the returns from that market are profitable enough to make the effort worthwhile.
What form will that take?
I think a epic rules book will happen.
I don't think they will chance a full AP for epic play
I think that some modules perhaps together comprising a short mini-campaign is a possibility.
I think articles like the one at the end of the Kingmaker AP giving ideas on how to continue the campaign past the conclusion will likely make it into every AP.
My two cents...
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I think the issue with epic for many people is a question of what size pond your game swims in. Generally speaking the games I've played in that entertained epic rules were set in the ocean, not a pond. Epic beings were a fact of life, and especially as you took things to planar adventures you found plenty of bigger fish out there. Tarrasque's weren't the worst thing around, and that was established early on. Gods weren't things you punked in your 20s (especially not beings greater than demigods).
For people though who regard Balors and Pit Fiends as among the most powerful fiends (with Demon Lords like those of the Fiendish Codex I) I can see how level 20+ starts to seem extreme. I on the other hand haven't ever really seen demon lords and such at that level of power. I like a big epic cosmos. I like hundreds of thousands of different crystal spheres, each of which might only product a couple epic heroes a generation, I like planar rulers who's CRs extend into the high fifties, and plenty of epic beings between them and the highest standard CR demons. I like sleeping epic world destroying threats, that are only seen once in generations. I like plots with armies of fiends and angels on either side, with foes so powerful that no one else in the world could challenge them, foes that can and have devoured entire worlds.
That said, I tend to think there is a place where everyones cosmology breaks down, and that for everyone it is different. For some people a 20th level, for me it is in the high 30s or maybe early 40s. Some people like 100s of levels, but I think even then their gaming universe starts to run into DBZ syndrome, with villains that seem to be appearing, each worse than the rest, out of thin air just to keep it going. That isn't my interest in epic - I just think some stories are too epic to be limited to 20 levels.
Anyway, yeah.
This for the win.
There are D&D-style (or I guess Pathfinder-style) stories that require you be able to fight gods, create mountain ranges, and forge new realities, and build floating cities.
And then there are a looooooot that don't.
Most of my games go just fine up to the current 20 level cap. A few need more room. I want to be able to add a rules set on top of what I use most of the time, just in case I need it. I want to ALWAYS have the option to go bigger. Any set, no-raise cap, even one that takes the current most powerful creatures as the top, means I have a place I cannot go.
Poop on that. I want to be able to go everywhere, so I need epic level rules.
I removed a flame duel. A couple bystanding posts were caught in the cross-fire. If you have something to say, please feel free to repost it (with the vitriol removed, if necessary.)
If you just want the last word, please take it elsewhere.
I'm good with a cap. Each of the following beings exist in the Universe of Golarion.
Abraxas, Master of the Final Incantation CR 32
Aldinach, She of the Six Venoms CR 27
Andirifkhu, The Razor Princess CR 28
Angazhan, The Ravener King CR 28
Areshkagal, The Faceless Sphinx CR 26
Baphomet, Lord of the Minotaurs CR 31
Cyth-V’sug, Prince of the Blasted Heath CR 31
Dagon, The Shadow in the Sea CR 32
Deskari, Lord of the Locust Host CR 30
Flauros, The Burning Maw CR 29
Gogunta, Song of the Swamp CR 26
Haagenti, The Whispers Within CR 31
Jezelda, Mistress of the Hungry Moon CR 27
Jubilex, The Faceless Lord CR 30
Kabriri, He Who Gnaws CR 29
Kostchtchie, The Deathless Frost CR 28
Mazmezz, The Creeping Queen CR 27
Mestama, The Mother of Witches CR 30
Nocticula, Our Lady in Shadow CR 32
Orcus, Prince of Undeath CR 32
Pazuzu, King of the Wind Demons CR 32
Shax, The Blood Marquis CR 30
Sifkesh, The Sacred Whore CR 27
Socothbenoth, The Silken Sin CR 31
Urxehl, Trollfather CR 26
Xoveron, The Horned Prince CR 29
Zevgavizeb, God of the Troglodytes CR 28
Zura, The Vampire Queen CR 29
I want the rules to be able to build these beings. I want the rules for my characters to be able to face them. Paizo has defined them as part of their world and I think they have a duty to define rules up to that point.
IMO, levels 15 and up are already the start of epic level play. I mean crikes! My players defeated a god at level 19 in my previous campaign. Personally, I'm not interested in epic rules. Don't let that stop you from making them though if many other people want them :)
I think that there is definitely a market for the epic rules, though obviously a smaller market than for the core rules.
I trust Paizo to do the appropriate market research on how much epic material they can sell and make a profit from. I agree with the surmise of a few other posters that it would probably be a rule book and a handful of modules. I am of the mind that A couple of epic sequel modules to some of the APs would probably sell quite well, since it probably wouldn't be incredibly difficult for DMs to adjust them downward just a hair to fit into sub-epic rules, should they so wish to. A Test of the StarStone module would likely sell well too, as it is a major theme in the campaign setting, and some DMs who wouldn't run it might still like to have it for the extra knowledge on Golarion lore.
*Warning:*
*Long winded soliloquy about an epic game follows:*
I for one would buy them, since that would allow me to convert one of my favorite characters whom I played from level 1 to low epic. Though when we play that game, the DM consistently manages to keep a party of four characters of levels averaging level 22 at risk of a TPK using only monsters of CR around 12 to 14. Good lord is he an evil DM, but I'm proud to say that we have trained him well. He is a master of using the environment against us. He knows exactly what we will plan on doing, and can thwart us with ease. We literally had no fighting chance against a Tarn Linnorm with 2 extra sorcerer levels, and only survived because our wizard managed to talk it out of eating us. Of course, since the wizard is evil, my good cleric fears what he had to promise it in order to win our survival.
The DM manages to avoid the christmas-tree magic item problem by giving our characters a choice of spending money on magic items or keeping the people in our kingdoms fed and happy. His game world is also somewhat magic-poor, since when it comes to rolling for magic items in our loot, none of our dice seem to want us to have anything particularly powerful. In fact, except for a couple artifacts (which were simply plot devices he decided to have stick around), most of our magic items we crafted ourselves. At least we convinced him that he should roll on the epic treasure table if we beat a monster with CR 21 or above, but given how tough he can make a CR12, I don't expect to beat one of his epic beasties any time soon.
I have wanted a Test of the Starstone module since I learned what the Starstone was. Just sayin'.
I have wanted a Test of the Starstone module since I learned what the Starstone was. Just sayin'.
I would kill for that.
Seriously.
I want to know just what the Test entails.
Something tells me it takes only very exceptional people to complete.
...
Or very exceptionally drunk people.
I always imagined the test of the starstone was different each time.
True, but that doesn't mean there can't be a module that shows an example test or three.
True, but that doesn't mean there can't be a module that shows an example test or three.Surely a module designed to allow you to create your own would be better? Kind of like a modular module. Different tasks and opponents that can be inserted in different places to create an entirely different story and dynamic.
Could be, although sometimes a well done example (with some sidebars for ideas on how to do it other ways) is better than a mix and match hodge-podge that tries to do it all. I'm sure Paizo will explore all the ways to represent this and find a way to do it well.
Yes to Epic, but only if 10th and higher spell levels is at least an option. Otherwise, I can just adapt the existing book.
Poop on that. I want to be able to go everywhere, so I need epic level rules.But epic will have a cap. Just like the level 20 cap it's not a hard cap. Nobody is saying you can't go beyond it it's just there are no specific rules telling you how. If you want to be able to go everywhere and do everything then you can have your GM (apologies to whoever that is if this suggestion ruins their day) give you a probability of success and you roll a percentile dice. That way the whole world is at your fingertips. For me part of the fun is that my character has restrictions but hey I understand thats not how everyone plays.
First, I AM the GM. As GM, I want epic level rules.
There is no law stating that epic level rules have to include a cap of any kind. If they said "add +1 to hit, +1 caster level and +1 save for every level over 20" then there's no cap. You can apply that to a level 30, 130, or 3xgoogleplex-level character. And they scale with the 1-20 level rules I'm using for most of my game world, so I dont have to just make up how a percentile-based-character like you suggest interacts with a 19th level paladin.
Now my example rule is simplistic and bad. But the basic idea can be used by the smart writers at Paizo to make epic level rules with no, none, absolutely not a cap.
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Poop on that. I want to be able to go everywhere, so I need epic level rules.But epic will have a cap. Just like the level 20 cap it's not a hard cap. Nobody is saying you can't go beyond it it's just there are no specific rules telling you how. If you want to be able to go everywhere and do everything then you can have your GM (apologies to whoever that is if this suggestion ruins their day) give you a probability of success and you roll a percentile dice. That way the whole world is at your fingertips. For me part of the fun is that my character has restrictions but hey I understand thats not how everyone plays.First, I AM the GM. As GM, I want epic level rules.
There is no law stating that epic level rules have to include a cap of any kind. If they said "add +1 to hit, +1 caster level and +1 save for every level over 20" then there's no cap. You can apply that to a level 30, 130, or 3xgoogleplex-level character. And they scale with the 1-20 level rules I'm using for most of my game world, so I dont have to just make up how a percentile-based-character like you suggest interacts with a 19th level paladin.
Now my example rule is simplistic and bad. But the basic idea can be used by the smart writers at Paizo to make epic level rules with no, none, absolutely not a cap.
I'm fairly certain that James has said that when they do Psionic rules that there will be a cap (lvl 36 seems to be the lvl thrown about)
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Here is a quote from the ask James Jacobs thread
I really liked that the rules gave a place to play out really mythological things, like fighting demon lords and gods and doing what essentially amounts to superhero stuff. Taking a PC from 1st level up to the point where he's creating worlds and commanding flights of dragons and challenging archfiends is really cool.Alas... without a cap to the level progression, the rules are fundamentally flawed. There's no way to actually design campaigns or adventures or support material for that kind of system since there's no common ground to build from; a deity can be CR 24 or 34 or 56 or 190 or 324,094 and none of those is "right" when it comes to setting the "most powerful creature." That, and the math of the game simply doesn't scale right. An epic level game NEEDS a level cap. At least, it does in order for me to be interested in supporting it; I'm not interested in putting a year of work into statting up a bunch of demigods, for example, only to have the internets blast the work because my stats are "too powerful" or "not powerful enough" for their own interpretations of what is epic level.
As much as I love Psionics, I would sooner buy a Epic book than a Psionic book, or even a second Bestiary or any other book (i.e. a Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, etc.)
IMO, a flaw of the 3.0 ELH is that came too soon.
The designer should first expand the game "horizontally" and then place a second cap of levels, call it epic, and do it well.
I can wait for epic, even if I love it, because I want it well done.
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I'll state the following up front. Game play in the high teens, let alone the levels bolted on by Epic rules, do not appeal to me. I can appreciate the power curve of the 1-20 scale, the nod to backwards compatability, etc. IMO, once your adventures have to include plane-hopping & CR20+ outsiders just to provide "level-appropriate challenges" you've already hit the "epic" level of play.
In much of the speculation of future PF RPG products, I've seen repeated references to 2011 = Asian-themed stuff; 2012 = epic rules; 2013 = psionics/Vudra (maybe). At first, I just shrugged it off - maybe I'd get it, maybe I wouldn't.
However, I've arrived at another concern separate from my personal gaming biases.
If an entire year of RPG products are geared toward Epic Rules & epic-rule tie-ins, is that a risk for Paizo's business plan?
Reasons for asking:
1. It's stated that Paizo adventure-related research shows that the most popular adventures span the levels 1-15, hence the increase in the # of APs that top out at those levels rather than run the full 20 levels.2. Epic-level rules is a step beyond even those levels. If the mid-high teens are a significantly smaller # of gamers than levels 1-15, would it stand to reason the # that are interested in playing at epic levels would at most be comparable to the number that play at levels 16-20.
3. Presumably, if there is an epic-level rule supplement, there would be an AP tie-in or additional PF adventures using epic-level rules. This would result in a sizeable portion of the Paizo product line for 1/2 or most of a year be tied up with a theme that could be of little interest to most of its customers.
Obviously, this is just speculation. (Hopefully unfounded.) Paizo's got a proven track record and haven't let me down yet.
Just curious as to what others think.
Why do you care? Don't buy it. Eventually they will have to release Pathfinder 2.0 to stay viable. Are you going to whine about that, while disguising it as a question of fiscal viability?
A 25th level fighter would have 5 attacks with a full attack, a +2 overall bonus on all three saves, and 5 more feats. Weapon training should go up at 21st and 25th. Armor Training has already maxed out so a new, AC related ability could be made up to replace it.
With a 25th level Wizard you need some extrapolation. A spell-list chart that grants 10+ level spell slots (but no 10th level spells) which could allow for metamagic feats to be applied to the highest level spells. Each slot caps out at four spells per spell level, maybe expand that, probably not.
Does Epic need a huge hardcover book? Do we need new rules or subsets? Most classes and feat progressions allow for expansion. Epic level rules can be a very small book.
Remember, keep it simple.