You can use epic fighter feats that allow characters to do things once reserved for fictional characters. Destructive cleave would bust open what a bad guy was guarding, like a door. Letting epic fighters do structural damage would be cool.
I'm firmly in the pro-epic camp. I don't expect an epic AP to come out with it. I actually expect it will be a single book, perhaps a module or two.
As for fitting epic content into Golarion, there are plenty of things (arch-devils are the easiest example) which the designers have already said won't get stats before epic rules as they are in the CR 26-30 range. They have also said the Gods will never get stats, as they can't be interacted with in normal ways. There will never be large groups of epic beings running around Golarion, they will be around on the planes sparingly.
By the time epic comes around there will be the APG, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, plus dozens of companion/chronicles books. Regular play will have had plenty of support, and normal APs will continue on pace. So you may choose to skip a book in the Rules line, it happens to the best of us.
As for the name Epic, we are likely stuck with it since it is a legacy. Unless Paizo goes old school and calls it "Master" or "Immortal".
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Letting epic fighters do structual damage would be cool.
Um, high level fighters already can. A 14th level Barbarian can have a strength score comparable to a hill giant before rage and deal a minimum of 14 damage. Which means each hit deals more damage than the hardness of iron, the toughest wall. Given a few rounds to chew through some HP totals, that wall is coming down.
Letting epic fighters do structual damage would be cool.Um, high level fighters already can. A 14th level Barbarian can have a strength score comparable to a hill giant before rage and deal a minimum of 14 damage. Which means each hit deals more damage than the hardness of iron, the toughest wall. Given a few rounds to chew through some HP totals, that wall is coming down.
Right, sorry.
One flaw in epic was probably giving out uncapped power to casters at level 21.1. How was the power untapped?
2. Paizo is not Wotc. The "it will suck because 3.5 epic rules sucked" is a fallacy.
Uncapped rather then untapped. And by that I mean epic spellcasting should probably have been done a bit better.
So you don't think it was a flaw and should possibly be corrected. Well in either case I feel that it could have been handled better. I mean I find that while it is probably noticed it is still a good idea to point out things that you think are problematic so that they could be corrected just in case they were missed. Perhaps no one of import on the design process will see this but then again perhaps someone will.
1. I knew what word you were trying to use. I just did not get the meaning of what you were trying to say. I agree that epic spellcasting sucked. That ability to make your own spells was cool, but the mechanics behind it was wonky.
I don't know how they will not make it scale to much without making the level not matter enough.
I support epic play..had some good times in 3e with it as both player and GM. Some assumptions are silly, but I'd love to see Paizo's exploration of the concept.
How I would like to see it: Kenzer Co created "epic classes" for the archetypes in their Hackmaster 4e books - once you were a level 20 "warrior" you could become a HackFighter, 20 levels of "arcane user" and HackMage, etc.
If Paizo could create simplified level 21+ Prestige Classes as one option that'd be wonderful. A level 20 Wizard could aspire to "PaizoMage" at level 21, gaining new abilities and maybe something like 10th level spells.
Whatever they do, I hope the don't feel tied down to the existing 3e SRD epic rules.
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Okay, the thing is THIS IS HAPPENING. Just like psionics, sci-fi stuff, guns, etc...it WILL HAPPEN.
Arguing against it is fallacious. Think about it. As soon as they run out of ideas, they will have to make a new edition within a few years. They don't want this, their fans really don't want this (at least not yet), so the only natural recourse is to publish the more niche-like material aka Epic, Psionics, etc.
You can't really argue against having it. It will happen irregardless. They may really love you, but they need money also.
What you CAN do is give them feedback on what you would find agreeable when they do publish them.
As an avid fan and lover of epic, I shall come to it's defense thus:
1)If one thinks epic is not a decent market to cater to I suggest thinking again. In the Core Rules there is a small section on going past level 20. In WotC's 4e PHB, post 20 rules sat right alongside pre-20 rules. Dicefreaks is a website devoted to merging 1st, 2e, 3.x, post 20 rules and planar lore(among a lot of other stuff) into a coherent whole. The Epic discussion forum on WotC's site is massive, and long have many fans clamored for post 20 rules. a fellow by the name of Upper_Krust has designed a very popular set of rules to allow players to not only play beyond 20, but to also be Immortals, and he has a very active forum(usually) over at Enworld.
If epic rules were not a decent market, i doubt most of the above would exist.
2) For those who believe said rules would take away from other projects, did the APG prevent other books from being released this year? has no APs been released at all in 2010??
3) To the people worried about the setting being intruded upon by epic beings: UM....WTF??? last i checked the only things that affected ANY setting were those allowed by the GM or asked for by the players. I could, very easily, say "Hey, I don't want Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs or Halflings to intrude upon my setting, even if that setting is Golarion and all the books say they can be there". However, i could also say that not only do i want all those races, but i also want Changelings, Shifters, Warforged, Kalasthar, Dragonborn, Eladrin, Drow, Kobolds, etc to "intrude" upon Golarion or any other settings.
And whose gonna stop me??? players in another game?? in a different state or even country??
To you i say "to the depths of Hell with you all"
I'm surprised to see yet another epic-level thread explode so quickly (w/ multiple postings). Anyway. I'm in the pro camp, and others have already made sensible arguments that I would have made.
I think if Paizo can do epic-level rules that streamline the math and tedium of earlier rule sets, that would remove some of the detractors.
I don't realistically believe they'd ever do a whole AP w/ epic levels, so most people can relax. More likely is a rulebook and some modules. (My worry about the modules though is that hard cap on page count would seem like an impediment. So hopefully some mega-modules.) That should deal w/ the financial risk more or less. And it would make a sizable subgroup (myself included) very, very happy. The truth is, I buy things now I'm not entirely interested in, just to show my support for the things I am interested in. And, so that hopefully other interests will be addressed (psionics, epic, planar...yeah, I'm a freak).
We don't have to worry about tackling the deities, as Paizo has already made it clear they're untouchable by mortals. Which is fine by me. Honestly, I'm ok w/ a suggested hard cap of 30 or so. I've been playing a long time, and remember seeing Demogorgon, Asmodeus, Lolth et al statted up in those early books. Who didn't dream of the day they could face off against them?! That's all most of us are asking for. We're not necessarily looking for superhero-like, Exalted-style playing (I'm certainly not). But that hard cap of 20 and a gold watch for retirement doesn't satisfy all of us.
I will agree w/ Hogarth that Golarion--at least what we've seen of it--doesn't seem that friendly to the concept of epic levels. But adventuring on other planets and the planes offers limitless opportunities; not to mention the Darklands and such. It shouldn't be too hard to swing w/out breaking the continuity of Golarion to date.
My recommendation for a super-simple epic ruleset? That doesn't immediately make the challenges (for whatever level of challenge there is for 20th level characters) outdated?
You've heart of E6? Now consider this:
E20.
+1
Why is a hard cap of 20 unacceptable but 30 is fine? Once you accept the hard cap isn't where it is arbitrary? As even the pro epic guys admit that the big problem is the maths don't work beyond well beyond 20 can't we accept that to make epic work is going to be a big task? I'm all for Paizo creating epic rules for those who want them but I think they should wait and do it right. I also think getting psionics right will be less of an undertaking and should happen first.Also I never dreamt of facing off against gods when their stats were printed.
Great post.
I apologise if my last post seemed abrupt, it was not my intention to insult the very notion of epic level adventures. Although also not a fan huge fan of psionics myself as...
Apology Accepted, Captain Needa!
Er - what I mean is - no harm no foul.
Your comment (and several others) bring up another good point:
Some of us don't really want 'EPIC' as in 'More Epic than we already are' - we just want support for play beyond Level 20.
3) To the people worried about the setting being intruded upon by epic beings: UM....WTF??? last i checked the only things that affected ANY setting were those allowed by the GM or asked for by the players. I could, very easily, say "Hey, I don't want Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs or Halflings to intrude upon my setting, even if that setting is Golarion and all the books say they can be there". However, i could also say that not only do i want all those races, but i also want Changelings, Shifters, Warforged, Kalasthar, Dragonborn, Eladrin, Drow, Kobolds, etc to "intrude" upon Golarion or any other settings.And whose gonna stop me??? players in another game?? in a different state or even country??
To you i say "to the depths of Hell with you all"
I fall in category 3 so will take up the gauntlet with a pretty simple response. I want the Golarion setting to remain non-epic at its core. I could care less if OPTIONAL rules are then published to add epic for, as you correctly point out, I can always just refuse to allow it. However, I would rather you have to do the work to add epic to the setting, then me have to do work to take it out, so I want them to keep it out of the core setting. Selfish of me, I know, but there you have it.
Unless you allow infinite advancement, there is an upper end. The specific number assigned to the upper end is arbitrary (could be level 1000, could be level 20). Since all the math is balanced for levels 1-20, why not set the "top" at 20?
Is it that the current level 20 isn't powerful enough? If so, in relation to what? How many level 1 warriors can a level 20 fighter defeat? A hundred? Two? Five? Remember, he doesn't have to kill them all...many forces will retreat well before that. A prepared level 20 wizard can route armies of level 1 NPCs.
Wouldn't altering some of the demographic and monster distribution assumptions, coupled with using the slow advancement option, address such concerns without requiring a set of tacked-on additions that don't jive with the core math? Surely it is rather intuitive that scaling a game based on core mechanic of a single d20 (an the accompanying linear distribution) past a certain point isn't a good idea?
It's not that I want to deprive anyone of epic rules (whilst twirling my moustache); I really just don't get how Epic isn't the amp that goes to 11...
Paizo's got a proven track record and haven't let me down yet.
Just curious as to what others think.
Paizo can - in my opinion - cut an excellent set of post-20th level rules. The SRD 3e epic rules do not scale very well in certain aspects - epic spells, magic items and CR I'm looking at you.
Giving a few years' real time before releasing 'epic' and psionics rules for Pathfinder is almost certainly necessary. I would rather wait and get something suitably grand than get a re-hash of the SRD materials. In the meanwhile, we have plenty of options available to us.
I agree that Paizo will not endanger the AP line with an epic AP any time soon, if ever. I would subscribe to it gladly though!
I suspect that the primary reason that statistics show that the most popular adventures are 15th level and below is that GMs do not often wish to tackle 16th level+ game play under the current rules set. Seeing solid alternatives to the existing iterative attack system does not happen often. I have seen a few that I find intriguing, but nothing system coherent (yet).
Some of us don't really want 'EPIC' as in 'More Epic than we already are' - we just want support for play beyond Level 20.But you can just do that by taking more than one class.
You can take a page from older editions as well by permitting "old school" multiclassing (gestalt rules, only XP earned is divided by the number of classes and the entire group would probably need to be 'game'.) and dual-classing using an xp progression that is one slower than campaign standard (3e removes ability score requirements - basically 'reset' gear to low-level by mutual agreement at the table, keep 'gearless' ability scores and previous hit points total, track new hp from new class as a nonlethal damage threshold - or something equivalent) are certainly viable options as well as simply picking up a whole new class 'track' at 21st level.
I still think 11-20 counts as Epic already.
to address this and those who say the cap of 20 is enough, why?? granted the game is awesome, what you can do is certainly epic, but there are plenty of us out there who want to keep playing past 20.
I have a character named Veldrin whose level 220. I haven't played in him years(due to RL issues), and i still long to play him. some characters just grow on you, and some not so much. I had this really cool Elven Ranger who started out as an NPC class, then hit Ranger at level 2(i think). i don't think he even got to level 4, but i freakin loved that character!!
the level you take a particular character to is not the be all end all, its the connection, the fun you have with him, and sometimes, you just don't want that fun to end or that connection to be severed. THAT IS WHY a lot of us love and want, rules past 20.
Also, just to throw this out:
currently, i do NOT buy the APs(shocking!!). But they don't bother me, I don't have issues with those who buy them and they make Paizo money(apparently their main source)
How would all those who love the APs feel if all of us who want post 20 rules were to start a thread saying "we no longer want Paizo to make APs, because we feel they take away from work that could be done on books like the APG, the Bestaries, and the pair of up-coming Ultimate supplements"
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to address this and those who say the cap of 20 is enough, why?? granted the game is awesome, what you can do is certainly epic, but there are plenty of us out there who want to keep playing past 20.
I'd like to point out I said nothing about 20 levels being 'enough'. Just that at 11th you are already an epic character. I myself have a 36th level elven monk stashed away.
I still think 11-20 counts as Epic already.to address this and those who say the cap of 20 is enough, why?? granted the game is awesome, what you can do is certainly epic, but there are plenty of us out there who want to keep playing past 20.
And once you can play to level 30, people will want to play to level 40, 50, and so on. Ultimately, it progresses beyond hero-superhero (1-20) to demigod-ridiculous.
The whole thing ultimately becomes a running joke.
Player 1: "The Tarrasque was the greatest threat to the world. Remember when we thought he was tough?"
Player 2: "Yeah, and Asmodeus was a candy-ass. I can't believe we ever thought he was invincible."
Player 3: "Now that we've crossed planes & planets & killed gods (& taken their stuff), I wonder what the GM will throw at us next session?"
Player 4: "Dunno. Betcha in 5 more levels we'll think they're a cake-walk too even though they threatened the whole universe."
<collective yawn>
Man, the number of logical errors and fallacies being thrown around in this thread is amazing.
People saying "Epic sucks because epic has always sucked" or "because 3.5 epic sucked" are cutting off their nose to spite their face. Paizo won't be updating the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook; they've already said they'd do Epic rules their own way. So, in fact, all the previous failures actually make it more likely that Paizo will succeed by giving them ideas of what doesn't work with years and years of playtesting.
Also, everyone saying "Just do E20 instead of E6" have clearly never actually looked at the E6 rules and thought about applying them to an epic-level game. E6 is specifically designed to keep things pretty much within the realm of real-world limitations. That is blindingly obviously counter to the concept of epic-level play.
Finally, people saying "epic is just more of the same but bigger" need to A) re-read my first point, and B) grow some imagination and read some epic-play AARs/PbPs/Story Hours. I suggest starting with Sepulchrave.
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I think we should have the option for rules for Epic play. I am all for Epic play but have found I have only played a small amount of games that had epic PCs. We hardly ever used the ELHB but we took joy in knowing we had it there if and when needed.
Even if we don't all see the point of Epic surely we can all concede that the option is a valid one? A game for all seasons and a game for all gamers.
I would hesitate to endorse epic rules/NPCs monsters etc in Golarion though for the shoe horn reasoning stated earlier. Maybe one of the other planets in the universe however......
Honestly, I'm ok w/ a suggested hard cap of 30 or so. I've been playing a long time, and remember seeing Demogorgon, Asmodeus, Lolth et al statted up in those early books. Who didn't dream of the day they could face off against them?! That's all most of us are asking for. We're not necessarily looking for superhero-like, Exalted-style playing (I'm certainly not). But that hard cap of 20 and a gold watch for retirement doesn't satisfy all of us.
Why is a hard cap of 20 unacceptable but 30 is fine? Once you accept the hard cap isn't where it is arbitrary? As even the pro epic guys admit that the big problem is the maths don't work beyond well beyond 20 can't we accept that to make epic work is going to be a big task? I'm all for Paizo creating epic rules for those who want them but I think they should wait and do it right. I also think getting psionics right will be less of an undertaking and should happen first.
Also I never dreamt of facing off against gods when their stats were printed.
I did say "30 or so". The reason for that is that Paizo has stated they'd make the upper tier encounters (demon lords and such) in that range. Just see what they've already done in the Demonomikon articles in Dragon magazine. If you're going to stat them out in that range (high 20's and low 30's??), the only reason to do so is to provide a challenge for higher-level PCs. Otherwise they'd be like gods and simply not statted at all.
That will likely be the uppermost range available for creatures to fight. The next tier up is actual gods, and Paizo is on record as saying they won't be statted up. You simply can't fight them.
Finally, I wasn't fondly remembering the statted gods in Deities & Demigods as worthwhile (and realistic) opponents. I was referring to the 1st ed. Monster Manual. None of those bad boys and girls were "gods" at that point, so you mistook my earlier quote.
And once you can play to level 30, people will want to play to level 40, 50, and so on. Ultimately, it progresses beyond hero-superhero (1-20) to demigod-ridiculous.
The whole thing ultimately becomes a running joke.
Player 1: "The Tarrasque was the greatest threat to the world. Remember when we thought he was tough?"
Player 2: "Yeah, and Asmodeus was a candy-ass. I can't believe we ever thought he was invincible."
Player 3: "Now that we've crossed planes & planets & killed gods (& taken their stuff), I wonder what the GM will throw at us next session?"
Player 4: "Dunno. Betcha in 5 more levels we'll think they're a cake-walk too even though they threatened the whole universe."<collective yawn>
I think the issue with epic for many people is a question of what size pond your game swims in. Generally speaking the games I've played in that entertained epic rules were set in the ocean, not a pond. Epic beings were a fact of life, and especially as you took things to planar adventures you found plenty of bigger fish out there. Tarrasque's weren't the worst thing around, and that was established early on. Gods weren't things you punked in your 20s (especially not beings greater than demigods).
For people though who regard Balors and Pit Fiends as among the most powerful fiends (with Demon Lords like those of the Fiendish Codex I) I can see how level 20+ starts to seem extreme. I on the other hand haven't ever really seen demon lords and such at that level of power. I like a big epic cosmos. I like hundreds of thousands of different crystal spheres, each of which might only product a couple epic heroes a generation, I like planar rulers who's CRs extend into the high fifties, and plenty of epic beings between them and the highest standard CR demons. I like sleeping epic world destroying threats, that are only seen once in generations. I like plots with armies of fiends and angels on either side, with foes so powerful that no one else in the world could challenge them, foes that can and have devoured entire worlds.
That said, I tend to think there is a place where everyones cosmology breaks down, and that for everyone it is different. For some people a 20th level, for me it is in the high 30s or maybe early 40s. Some people like 100s of levels, but I think even then their gaming universe starts to run into DBZ syndrome, with villains that seem to be appearing, each worse than the rest, out of thin air just to keep it going. That isn't my interest in epic - I just think some stories are too epic to be limited to 20 levels.
Anyway, yeah.
It's the same kind of mindset some people apply when converting characters from fiction or film into game stats - they automatically assume the characters must be level 18-20 just to capture how tough they are.
Perseus? High level play will handle his story just fine.
Mythic does not always = Epic level.
Just because many mythical heroes aren't above 20th level does not mean they all aren't. Perseus, perhaps not. Diomedes, who wounded two gods and drove them from the battlefield in the Trojan War? Achilles, who killed countless Trojans including a vast proportion of the highest-leveled ones essentially singlehanded in an afternoon? Gilgamesh? Hercules (during his life)?
I still think 11-20 counts as Epic already.to address this and those who say the cap of 20 is enough, why?? granted the game is awesome, what you can do is certainly epic, but there are plenty of us out there who want to keep playing past 20.
And once you can play to level 30, people will want to play to level 40, 50, and so on. Ultimately, it progresses beyond hero-superhero (1-20) to demigod-ridiculous.
The whole thing ultimately becomes a running joke.
Player 1: "The Tarrasque was the greatest threat to the world. Remember when we thought he was tough?"
Player 2: "Yeah, and Asmodeus was a candy-ass. I can't believe we ever thought he was invincible."
Player 3: "Now that we've crossed planes & planets & killed gods (& taken their stuff), I wonder what the GM will throw at us next session?"
Player 4: "Dunno. Betcha in 5 more levels we'll think they're a cake-walk too even though they threatened the whole universe."<collective yawn>
Honestly? as awesome and insanely(and stupidly) powerful as some of my PCs have gotten(levels 220 for Veldrin, 150 for Zashir and I think 80ish for Silinrul) my choice for a hard cap would be 60 for pure mortals. If one desires to move beyond that(or even a lower cap of anything less) one needs to find either some form of divinity or another kind of ascension/transcendence to move a character beyond mortal limits.
But there are also always new and crazy things to throw at PCs. You just need to use your imagination if that's where you want to take your game.
OR
You can play within 1-20, using everything that has made Paizo a successful business, including the APs, Modules, etc. and that's awesome. But I, and those who like to go beyond 20, should be able to do so, because we find that just as awesome.
I hope they put out a "primer" Basic epic rules...
After the primer has been out for a little while, a full book could be released.
I did say "30 or so". The reason for that is that Paizo has stated they'd make the upper tier encounters (demon lords and such) in that range.I just think these things should be beyond the reach of 4 (or whatever size your party is, normally 6 for my group) mortals. Otherwise they just don't seem worthy of their position in the cosmos.
This is a silly position considering that in Golarion, mortals have literally become true deities. Not even just demigods, actual "we don't have statblocks" deities. If mortals can become gods, they can become strong enough to kill off demigod-level opponents, which arespecifically statted up so that they can be killed.
Here.
I have found an example of level 24 characters. In the first, and last 3.5 epic game I ever ran.
These are lists of the name of the player. The character. AC. FF. Touch. SR. Hit points. As well as a list of immunities and various other things each player had.. AS WELL, as a list of spells EVERYONE had..
Okay. *deep breath*
Player Character AC FF Touch SR Hit points
Robert Vargath 44 39 19 277
Craig Tiel 68 39 46 250
Dustin Beardyking 41 32 24 210
Joel Test 52 35 38 245
Christian Drake 44 39 20 309
Troy Vaal 39 35 36 246
Immunities
Robert-Mind blank, extended energy immunity, elements, Persistant greater visage of the deity, Immune to charms, protection from evil, Enduring life, disease, Mettle
Craig-20% miss chance low, heavy fortification, freedom of movement, 4d6 fire when hit him
Troy- Undead qualities, 3rd or lower force, mind affecting, HARD TO KILL, grappled or swallowed or killing blow greater teleported x feet away. Cold
Christian-Golem immunities
Joel-immune to mind affecting, criticals, sneak attack, 30 to all but positive, immune to negative 5 against positive
Dustin- Half or no damage to sonic or electrical, trackless step, cunning, mind blank, ignore arcane spell failure
Spells on everyone
Conviction +5 morale bonus to saving throws
Freedom of movement
Elation
Starmantle
Sublime Revely
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
Hard to kill. Means the player has about 6 ways to come back from the dead.
There were legacy weapons.. And everyone but.. Christian and Craig had access to epic spell casting.
Also. Starmantle and sublime revelry are.. boss..
Finally, people saying "epic is just more of the same but bigger" need to A) re-read my first point, and B) grow some imagination and read some epic-play AARs/PbPs/Story Hours. I suggest starting with Sepulchrave.
If the epic rules turn out to be "more of the same but bigger" (e.g. one person mentioned Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, which is not different from d20 in any way despite going up to level 25 with 10th level spells), then I would consider those epic rules to be a failure.
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in Golarion, mortals have literally become true deities. Not even just demigods, actual "we don't have statblocks" deities. If mortals can become gods, they can become strong enough to kill off demigod-level opponents, which arespecifically statted up so that they can be killed.
Tar-Baphon literally spanked a goddess.
Centuries later, Geb hauled her old bones up and made her his Lich-Queen.
There's definitely a couple or three Epic people floating around Golarion, even if none of these examples are *mortal* any longer.
(Nex, on the other hand, if he's still even around, might be both mortal and epic. But methinks the lack of epic action on Golarion prompted him to move on to bigger and badder places, leaving behind losers like Geb, who are too invested in what they've built to move on to where the real action is for 21st+ characters.)