If Paizo does create a set of "epic" (level 21+) rules, I sincerely hope they don't try to shoehorn a bunch of epic-level creatures into Golarion. I really dislike the idea that my level 1-7 characters are busting their asses fighting orcs and dragons when there's a whole society of epic-level heroes and villains right next door who could wipe out entire armies with a toenail clipping.
The idea I heard floated is that there are several countries to the east that will be the setting for Epic. It sounded like they would be modeled after Babylon, Ancient Greece, Ancient Persia, etc. I am looking forward to that set up and the idea that it gives me a place to take the characters when they are epic, without having to rewrite the current area.
If Paizo does create a set of "epic" (level 21+) rules, I sincerely hope they don't try to shoehorn a bunch of epic-level creatures into Golarion. I really dislike the idea that my level 1-7 characters are busting their asses fighting orcs and dragons when there's a whole society of epic-level heroes and villains right next door who could wipe out entire armies with a toenail clipping.The idea I heard floated is that there are several countries to the east that will be the setting for Epic. It sounded like they would be modeled after Babylon, Ancient Greece, Ancient Persia, etc. I am looking forward to that set up and the idea that it gives me a place to take the characters when they are epic, without having to rewrite the current area.
Ugh. Unless there's some kind of impenetrable curtain between Here and There, count me out.
All the talk about Epic Rules and whether or not to have them makes me think of all the people on any given MMO crying out for 'New High-Level Content' versus people crying out for 'New Low Level Content'. People rallying for an Expansion to the Game versus people lobbying to Fix known problems with existing content.
The comparison is not necessarily a Fair one. There is a limited amount of Content in any online game, and by a certain point, you have experienced it all. You enjoy the game, but you want more.
In a traditional Tabletop RPG, you can roll up a new character and start over at level one, and experience a completely different game - but in an MMO, all you're going to do is experience the same content you've already played from a different perspective.
On an MMO, some people rush through levels 1 through X because they feel true game play does not begin until level X + 1. Others enjoy the trip to Level X, because afterwards they feel it's an endless cycle of Grinding for Gear.
In Tabletop, some people hate hitting Level X beause now they have to start over. There's no rules to support play beyond that point. And more importantly, they've grown very attached to the character they've been playing for the last X levels. But others... Play doesn't really begin until Level X + 1.
One group that I play with HATES low-level play. Every new campaign they start begins at level 10. And they all LOVE the existing 3.x Epic Level Rules that most people consider to be 'stupid broken'. This group of players has absolutely no interest in playing Pathfinder at the moment. However, the instant a Pathfinder Epic Level ruleset is established, they'll all run over and pick up the Core Rulebook and the Epic Rules. Maybe even the APG and GMG. Whammo! New Customers for Paizo.
If I know people like this, then there have got to be other groups that fit the same demographic.
I, personally, want to see rules for 'Open Ended, No Level Cap Play'. I don't want to see the level cap extended to a new fixed number. I like my characters, and if I've played one to Level 20, I'm not really ready to stop playing him just because there are no rules for advancing beyond that point. Not that I NEED rules, but they are nice. They allow for continued advancement beyond 'Sweet! I finally got the Tier 3 Armor Drop I've been waiting on' while also eliminating the 'So we've been playing at Level 20 for two years now and had absolutely no change in our abilities' factor.
Unfortunately, I am also pretty realistic about how hard that is to accomplish using the mechanics and progressions established during levels 1 to 20. Using the current progressions, for example, any opponent that creates an Armor Class Challenge for a Level 40 fighter is impossible for a Level 40 Wizard or Sorcerer to hit, and almost impossible for a level 40 Thief, Cleric, Druid, or Monk. Any Effect that is a challenging WILL save for a Wizard is impossible for any class with a 'bad' WILL progression.
In my opinion, any product that increases play options is a good thing (so long as the options are reasonably balanced and do not spiral out of control). I, personally, am not terribly thrilled with the APG - but it provides options that were not previously available. Plenty of y'all out there love the thing, and I am sure there will be some Paizo support for the product by way of Modules, and some APs will likely incorporate content from this book. This doesn't mean ALL content produced on a go-forward basis will focus on or even incorporate content from the APG. I would have much preferred a 'High Level Play' book to the APG. But that is, again, my personal bias.
The Bad News for ME: Some Products from Paizo I am not interested in. This is actually nothing new, as Paizo has entire PRODUCT LINES I am not interested in.
The Good News for ME: Cash in my pocket to put towards Exalted, Traveller, Star Wars, and other game products that I and my gaming group enjoy.
This paragraph added in an Edit immediately after the initial Post
Of course, the new Experience Point Level Progression Paizo added with Pathfinder Delays the true 'Need' for Level 20+ rules and Gameplay, but does not obviate it.
If Paizo does create a set of "epic" (level 21+) rules, I sincerely hope they don't try to shoehorn a bunch of epic-level creatures into Golarion. I really dislike the idea that my level 1-7 characters are busting their asses fighting orcs and dragons when there's a whole society of epic-level heroes and villains right next door who could wipe out entire armies with a toenail clipping.
I have bad news for you, they are already there. There just arent hard rules for them yet. If the test of starstone isn't an epic level adventure I dont know what is...
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I never really got the love for 3.5 epic rules anyway. Doing bigger numbers of the same is fun, how ?
"I hit the UberDragon for 34566 damage with my +13 vorpal zweihander of epicness ! The Wizard will cast Maximized Implode Reality and the Rogue will make an Epic Sneak Attack for 4332 next round. That should do it, I really hope that it has the Amulet of Epic Natural Armor +23 that I am after !"
ZZzzzzzzzz....
Epic Rules! :)
I love 'em, I use 'em. Not a risk.
If Paizo does create a set of "epic" (level 21+) rules, I sincerely hope they don't try to shoehorn a bunch of epic-level creatures into Golarion. I really dislike the idea that my level 1-7 characters are busting their asses fighting orcs and dragons when there's a whole society of epic-level heroes and villains right next door who could wipe out entire armies with a toenail clipping.I have bad news for you, they are already there. There just arent hard rules for them yet. If the test of starstone isn't an epic level adventure I dont know what is...
(a) I have no idea if there is "a bunch of epic-level creatures" in the Cathedral of the Starstone.
(b) Even if there are, then presumably the Cathedral of the Starstone is an "impenetrable curtain", as I mentioned in my later post.
Just to clarify -- I don't have any problem with a few isolated epic-level creatures like the arch-devils or the Tarrasque. I have a problem with an area of the main campaign world where Tarrasque-level creatures are seemingly as common as orcs so that epic-level heroes have something to fight.
I never really got the love for 3.5 epic rules anyway. Doing bigger numbers of the same is fun, how ?
"I hit the UberDragon for 34566 damage with my +13 vorpal zweihander of epicness ! The Wizard will cast Maximized Implode Reality and the Rogue will make an Epic Sneak Attack for 4332 next round. That should do it, I really hope that it has the Amulet of Epic Natural Armor +23 that I am after !"
ZZzzzzzzzz....
The numbers are a biproduct of the things that are awesome about epic play. Its not about doing a billion damage, its a bout facing off with things that NEED you to do a billion damamge. The fun of epic play lies in the scale of the adventure. Where once you might have been worried about a city, or a kingdom, now you are going beyond the global scale, to mutliple planes, and meddling in the affairs of gods and demigods. Like someone else said, its pretty awesome when your trickster rogue gets the chance to steal the spellbook from the god of magic, of your bard match wits with the god of trickery. No longer are you fighting the servents of some distant powerful beings in the grand scheme of things, but the beings themselves.
For me its when the Paladin gets to smite asmodeus or some analogous situation that makes it an amazing situation. Or when the monk doesnt need a waterwalk cast on him because his acrobatics is sufficient to actually walk on water simply by balancing. And it's the rational expansion of the numbers that actually makes this difficult to pull off instead of the reason for doing it in the first place.
What I want is rules for a coherent and seamless transition from 20th level to higher levels. The 3.x Epic rules didn't do that (being neither coherent nor seamless), which is why, though I have played many a campaign that went past 20th level, I eschew the 3.x Epic rules.
I prefer the method used by Monte Cook in Arcana Evolved in which character classes went to 25th level and the progression was coherent and seamless. 10th level spells were introduced but they were more upsized 9th level spells than the rather poorly written epic spells of the 3.x Epic Handbook. I found this method the best to play to my sensibilities.
My experience with indviduals on both sides of the divide comes down to this as a personal observation.
People don't like epic for three reasons.
Reason 1 - It is too much work to run, either as the player or the DM but mainly the DM
Reason 2 - A dislike of the ruleset or tools for doing epic games.
Reason 3 - The character of a epic game. By this, I mean that some people consider epic to be extraplanar adventuring and threats and some people don't like extraplanar at any level. Some think it is fighting gods or archdemons/archdevils. The notion by many people is that 'going epic' means a fundamental change to the campaign and they would rather wrap up a campaign and retire characters than continue in a entirely new direction or embrace a new paradigm.
Reason 1 and 2 can be dealt with somewhat by Paizo doing a proper epic ruleset. If the ruleset doesn't add to the workload of the DM or players and the ruleset is a natural progression from 20th level and up rather than adapting some new ruleset or a sub-system, then perhaps more people would try epic.
Reason 3 is a product of people's expectations and fears. No one says that epic has to be about planes hopping and fighting archdevils/archdemons/godlings or saving the world from destruction every week but it is amazing that is the answer I get from people who don't play epic when I ask them what they consider epic level play.
There is absolutely no reason why the game fundamentally must change when one hits 20th level but that is the expectation of many people and is one of the reasons why epic is a minority play style.
There will be a camp which will never embrace epic play, which is fine. If spells like teleport are an issue for the DM or the players, that group is most likely never going to enjoy epic play because it will be more and more of spells/abilities/feats which 'breaks' the game for that group.
I am of the opinion that more people would try epic if the ruleset didn't up the workload and the ruleset was a smooth progression to levels about 20th without introducing a new sub-systems or rulesets which significantly change the game.
I would like to play in an epic level game. As for rules, I don't mind the hard cap on the classes, it just means it's time to explore a new set of skills that will compliment your abilities. However those capstone abilities are there and they are a temptation for the player. It's rather disappointing to see that there are a lot of DMs out there that don't want to put them to use or even grant the player to get to that level.
Ugh. Unless there's some kind of impenetrable curtain between Here and There, count me out.If Paizo does create a set of "epic" (level 21+) rules, I sincerely hope they don't try to shoehorn a bunch of epic-level creatures into Golarion. I really dislike the idea that my level 1-7 characters are busting their asses fighting orcs and dragons when there's a whole society of epic-level heroes and villains right next door who could wipe out entire armies with a toenail clipping.The idea I heard floated is that there are several countries to the east that will be the setting for Epic. It sounded like they would be modeled after Babylon, Ancient Greece, Ancient Persia, etc. I am looking forward to that set up and the idea that it gives me a place to take the characters when they are epic, without having to rewrite the current area.
Tend to agree. My actual suggestion would be that they make any epic changes to Golarion, if they must have them, entirely optional, sort of like creating an "alternate reality" Golarion where the epic players can all put their tights and capes on and play to their hearts content, without leaving the rest of us feel as if our existence is threatened by the whims of these godlike creatures at all times. Kind of like living under threat of nuclear annihilation. Been there. Done that. Wasn't fun.
Keep in mind that the core of paizo's fanbase is still dms. Many of them are exclusivly DM's given that for a long time almost all of paizo's products were dm centric. And there is little question that, regardless of how much fun you think high level play is (anywhere on the scale of aaarg to awesome sauce) it is more work for a dm. Alot more work. There is tons more to keep track of, building npc's takes ages, there is less support material for dm's in the form of printed npc's adventures, and anything else really. It is a pain.This may be true, but I don't buy that all the epic hate is from GMs only. My entire circle of gaming friends have discussed our favorite levels on numerous occasions. All but a handful of us really dislike high-level or epic gaming. I think a lot of people just prefer the gritty down in the dirt play of fighting off a horde of orcs vs. plane hopping and taking down gods.
My group wants epic play, and I think it can be done, but I also believe that it is not for every group. With that said, I think the rules should be published. I would like to see at three epic level modules. One would be low epic level, another mid epic, and the last high epic. Throwing a few modules at us won't hinder the other products.
If Paizo does create a set of "epic" (level 21+) rules, I sincerely hope they don't try to shoehorn a bunch of epic-level creatures into Golarion. I really dislike the idea that my level 1-7 characters are busting their asses fighting orcs and dragons when there's a whole society of epic-level heroes and villains right next door who could wipe out entire armies with a toenail clipping.
The epic guys have their hands full, and you have to do what they were doing before they were epic.
I'm confused, the players have attained level 20+, that would be the reason for their power level. The abilities were earned not just given one day on a whim.
Also, how is being epic level at MY table breaking the setting for your table? It's not like players who decide to go to epic levels are running around and crashing sessions with their characters.
Side note - Some people have mentioned how can epic characters be running around doing epic stuff while low level characters are running around doing low level stuff without smiting them?
Well there are gods in Galorian and not everyone is annihilated on a whim, there are liches and cr 25 dragons who don't just blow up these little level 1 - 7 parties every day (though I am sure they like to torture some of them!).
I don't think the levels past 20 should even be called epic because of the stigma. Is a character any less epic when they are level 19 or 20 and fighting balors? There isn't a switch when you obtain enough experience to hit level 21 that makes you a demi god (and there shouldn't be). It could just be additional progression to a new capstone with new abilities that let you flesh out a character concept even more and adds a greater degree of awesome for players that want to take it that far.
As I said in my previous post this is exactly the kind of thing I dislike about the idea of epic rules. If you want to be able to fight Asmodeus you better be more than a level X human paladin with super powerful gear. Only 4(?) people in the history of Golarion have passed the test of the starstone and become gods. Why would anybody bother if they're just going to get slapped around by a bunch of adventurers? If you want to do those things you should need to have characters with reasons for their power level (like they've been plucked from their mortal existence and become [insert powerful outsider here]) or your breaking the setting for the rest of us.
Epic Play doesn't have to take place in Golarion. Asmodeus exists in more than one Campaign Setting. Just because Paizo produces a PATHFINDER RPG product does not mean the contents of that product must be retconned into Golarion Continuity.
I came to Paizo later than most. I did not even know about the PATHFINDER CAMPAIGN SETTING until after the PATHFINDER RPG was published. I have not purchased the original PF Campaign Setting since the revised version of the book is right around the Corner.
I imagine Psionics will be another product like Level 20+ play. Based upon what I've read on these boards, there is nothing currently in Golarion that even hints at Psionic power. However, there are a ton of people clamoring for a Psionics book for Pathfinder. Paizo can produce this book without Destroying their existing Continuity: Yes, 'Pathways of the Mind' (completely fictional example title bearing no resemblance to any other book that may or may not share that title), but there are no Psionics in Golarion. Which means this book is not legal for Organized Play, since all Organized Play occurs in Golarion.
I know people who'd buy the book anyway, because they don't care about Golarion, but the do care about good, solid, rules for Psionic Use. (I personally, could care less about Psionics, but see my previous comments about expanding Options).
Of course, when I talk about 'Epic Level' Play, I am talking only about Level 21+ play. I am not necessarily talking about Mortals who can throw down on the gods without divine intervention of their own.
I'm also the guy who'd love to see a Pathfinder version of IRON HEROES that almost completely castrates the power of Magic (I like my Fantasy more along the lines of CONAN, or LANKHMAR, or SONG OF ICE AND FIRE than Mercedes Lackey, Tanya Huff, or Tad Williams).
Psionics are supposed to be heavily used in Vudra. So they are already in Golarion.
Side note - Some people have mentioned how can epic characters be running around doing epic stuff while low level characters are running around doing low level stuff without smiting them?
Well there are gods in Galorian and not everyone is annihilated on a whim, there are liches and cr 25 dragons who don't just blow up these little level 1 - 7 parties every day (though I am sure they like to torture some of them!).
I know you're not just addressing me, but my problem is with unfeasibly large amounts of epic creatures mingling with the rest of the world, not the occasional unique Whispering Tyrant or Tarrasque.
I don't think the levels past 20 should even be called epic because of the stigma. Is a character any less epic when they are level 19 or 20 and fighting balors?
Agreed 100%.
Psionics are supposed to be heavily used in Vudra. So they are already in Golarion.
Ahh, well, then scratch that portion of my post. As I said, I've not actually read any of the PF Campaign Setting :)
I know you're not just addressing me, but my problem is with unfeasibly large amounts of epic creatures mingling with the rest of the world, not the occasional unique Whispering Tyrant or Tarrasque.
I agree that this is a problem that plagues many campaigns and DM's. I don't think the solution is an impenetrable wall because the higher level CR creatrues or NPC's can be kings or rulers who are launching campaigns with their own interests at heart.
Ultimately it falls on the DM to manage the frequency of truly epic encounters in a not so epic world. Going to Hell to battle Asmodeus or fighting in an olympia equivelant plane is something that helps to seperate the epic encounters from the material plane. Sure it can spill over from time to time but maybe one of the objectives for the players is to prevent just that!
If an entire year of RPG products are geared toward Epic Rules & epic-rule tie-ins, is that a risk for Paizo's business plan?
I hope that is not the plan, as it would be a considerable risk. A smaller release would be wiser.
Here's what I would do if I where Erik/Lisa (tm):
1) Make sure all new subsystems where in place before PF Epic is developed. Specifically, epic magic must build on whatever new stuff introduced in Ultimate Mage, and similar books.
Maybe do a Paragon Level Handbook first.
2) There must be demon lords. I'll bet demon lord stats sell books. The capstone monsters of the PF Epic must be iconic and loved baddies.
3) There must be epic mooks. I'm talking about ultra powerful, generic mooks, that is common enough to serve as minions, yet without tearing setting integrity to pieces. Now, there is a design challenge.
4) Provide solid storytelling advice. Many forget that epic play is all about the story.
5) Produce a simple and backwards compatible epic system. Creating a new system is pointless. We have Exalted for that.
I would prefere simply the outline in the Core book and 200 powerful feats. I would be enough, as far as new rules are concerned.
6) Support it with a series of modules that serve as sequels for multiple well-loved adventure paths in the past.
The Return of the Runelords directly draw on both Rise of the Rune Lords and Curse of the Crimson Throne. Likewise, the Against House Thrune series is a direct stand-alone sequel both CotCT and Council of Thieves.
If Paizo does create a set of "epic" (level 21+) rules, I sincerely hope they don't try to shoehorn a bunch of epic-level creatures into Golarion. I really dislike the idea that my level 1-7 characters are busting their asses fighting orcs and dragons when there's a whole society of epic-level heroes and villains right next door who could wipe out entire armies with a toenail clipping.
+1.
Why can't level 20 be epic?
This +1. From my perspective and the perspective of every group I've ever gamed with, the abilities of characters in the 17-20 range are already Epic.
If Paizo does create a set of "epic" (level 21+) rules, I sincerely hope they don't try to shoehorn a bunch of epic-level creatures into Golarion. I really dislike the idea that my level 1-7 characters are busting their asses fighting orcs and dragons when there's a whole society of epic-level heroes and villains right next door who could wipe out entire armies with a toenail clipping.The idea I heard floated is that there are several countries to the east that will be the setting for Epic. It sounded like they would be modeled after Babylon, Ancient Greece, Ancient Persia, etc. I am looking forward to that set up and the idea that it gives me a place to take the characters when they are epic, without having to rewrite the current area.
If this turns out to be true, those regions will be my official departure from Golarion canon.
Modeling those cultures does not warrant or need to be at the Epic levels of play.
It's the same kind of mindset some people apply when converting characters from fiction or film into game stats - they automatically assume the characters must be level 18-20 just to capture how tough they are. Never mind that the source material showed them struggling throughout the story against opponents that a light years away from epic/otherwordly nature.
Conan wasn't 20th level at the beginning of his career. Han Solo, John McClain, Luke Skywalker, & Laura Croft aren't 20th level either.
Perseus? High level play will handle his story just fine.
Mythic does not always = Epic level.
For me its when the Paladin gets to smite asmodeus or some analogous situation that makes it an amazing situation. Or when the monk doesnt need a waterwalk cast on him because his acrobatics is sufficient to actually walk on water simply by balancing. And it's the rational expansion of the numbers that actually makes this difficult to pull off instead of the reason for doing it in the first place.As I said in my previous post this is exactly the kind of thing I dislike about the idea of epic rules. If you want to be able to fight Asmodeus you better be more than a level X human paladin with super powerful gear. Only 4(?) people in the history of Golarion have passed the test of the starstone and become gods. Why would anybody bother if they're just going to get slapped around by a bunch of adventurers? If you want to do those things you should need to have characters with reasons for their power level (like they've been plucked from their mortal existence and become [insert powerful outsider here]) or your breaking the setting for the rest of us.
Those four people are not fighting regular mortals. They are fighting a group of "not-yet demigod" mortals all at once. You can always make up your own fluff for their power level. Maybe once you get so good you are in tune with the cosmos to such an extent that you can make a demigod worry if your have others of similar ability with you.
Why can't level 20 be epic?This +1. From my perspective and the perspective of every group I've ever gamed with, the abilities of characters in the 17-20 range are already Epic.
Then change the name Epic to something else or dont use the name epic at all. The point is that some of us want something past level 20. Arguing what to call that is just arguing semantics.
Edit: I was just using your post as a spring board since the last few post same to focus on the name instead of the intent. I won't have players fighting deities either, but I do think we need rules to handle things past level 20. The math starts to fall apart, but the players might want to keep going.
Just from my limited experience, Epic Rules are not usually useful at all.
Which is why we need PAIZO to make epic rules that WORK.
All of you nay sayers who dislike epic only know the epic rules already published. Given Paizo's creativity, I would dare say that some folks who do NOT like epic now, may just be swayed by epic rules done properly ala Paizo's think tank.
I for one would love some good epic rules. Even if it is one sourcebook and done.
I will note that I have been running a high level campaign for a couple years now (started in houseruled 3.x, converted to Pathfinder halfway through). Characters are currently level 18.
My experience is this: high level gameplay is fun, and my personal (YMMV) experience is that it isn't broken or ridiculous. Powerful, yes. Unplayable, no. But it's a lot of prep for me as a GM (writing up high level NPCs and especially high level spellcasters takes a long time).
And there is almost no material out there for me to use for this 18th level party, so I have to make it all myself, increasing my prep time. I almost wonder if there's a snake-eating-its-tail effect with regards to the sales of high level and "epic" products--where most adventures and other products are low level, so people who want to go high level make their own adventures, so then they aren't out buying adventures, and only people who buy adventures buy low level adventures, because high level players make their own, because there aren't any high level adventures, and then....
Anyway. High level play is not everyone's cup of tea. As a matter of fact, low level play is not everyone's cup of tea. But I believe there IS a market for SOME high level and "Epic" products.
What I would like to see for levels, say, 15+ (going beyond 20), are the following:
- A rulebook with guidelines for running beyond 20th level, how to level classes, a few epic feats and spells. It does not have to be insanely indepth but enough to provide a good grounding in the existing rules.
- A source, either in the same rulebook or elsewhere, of high CR NPCs, monsters, traps, and hazards good for those kind of games.
- A few fairly setting-generic modules for high level games. But NOT adventure paths. I understand the reasoning for why there are not adventure paths that start at level 14. Alternately, maybe an adventure path that goes all the way to level 20, just for kicks and something different. But I think modules would probably be more cost effective--high level games may not sell by the truckloads, but I bet one or two really good high level modules with a moderate print run would sell just fine. I hardly use modules but I'd probably buy one if it came out on principle alone, just to support the idea.
The fear I see from scanning this thread is not how Epic Rules would affect the game mechanically, but how they would affect Golarion. I think focusing most materials away from adventure paths and toward more generic rulesets would satisfy the people who hunger for epic guidelines while not crossing the boundaries of people who want room for low-level games in Golarion. (I will also note I don't run games in Golarion, so I personally don't care a whit if the Epic Rules ever mention Golarion more than vaguely for some flavor text. And I also wonder if many folks who do run high level games avoid Golarion as a setting.)
I do NOT see Paizo devoting an entire YEAR to epic products only. More like one rulebook and a couple additional materials at best. I imagine the idea is, much like what Chicken Little shared to the world, greatly exaggerated.
If Paizo does create a set of "epic" (level 21+) rules, I sincerely hope they don't try to shoehorn a bunch of epic-level creatures into Golarion. I really dislike the idea that my level 1-7 characters are busting their asses fighting orcs and dragons when there's a whole society of epic-level heroes and villains right next door who could wipe out entire armies with a toenail clipping.The idea I heard floated is that there are several countries to the east that will be the setting for Epic. It sounded like they would be modeled after Babylon, Ancient Greece, Ancient Persia, etc. I am looking forward to that set up and the idea that it gives me a place to take the characters when they are epic, without having to rewrite the current area.If this turns out to be true, those regions will be my official departure from Golarion canon.
Modeling those cultures does not warrant or need to be at the Epic levels of play.
It's the same kind of mindset some people apply when converting characters from fiction or film into game stats - they automatically assume the characters must be level 18-20 just to capture how tough they are. Never mind that the source material showed them struggling throughout the story against opponents that a light years away from epic/otherwordly nature.
Conan wasn't 20th level at the beginning of his career. Han Solo, John McClain, Luke Skywalker, & Laura Croft aren't 20th level either.
Perseus? High level play will handle his story just fine.
Mythic does not always = Epic level.
Depends on how it is done, I am hoping they aren't doing an epic land where every character and creature you meet is epic. However if they do an area where there are more epic characters or creatures per capita then there are in Avistan that I am ok with that. Maybe there are 3 or 4 Spawn of Rovagug there instead of the 1 or 2 that are in Avistan. To be honest I am looking for something more along the lines of the Masters Box set then the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook.
I'm in no rush to see epic rules. The 3.0 rules were terrible and made no sense. In regular games to 20 the system is already breaking down. Even with the pathfinder upgrades melee classes are in danger of becoming glorified cheerleaders while the full casters are doing all of the heavy lifting.
I like that there are some high level modules on the schedule but I can do without epic rules. My group already shorten the last part of most adventure paths because we get bored of high level play quickly.
We played one epic game in 3.5 and casters completely dominated. The melee characters had to be decked out like Christmas trees in custom magic gear to even have a hope of being useful.
Paizo's has redone lots of other things and made it better so here's hoping that they can replicate the feat with epic rules, but again, I can do without.
At the risk of throwing this thing completely off the rails, it seems a lot of the discussion is missing the point of the original question.
It isn't about "Is epic-level play fun" or "epic play isn't fun" - personal tastes vary.
It isn't about the WotC implementation of Epic levels is irrelevant as Paizo won't be using those rules when/if they tackle epic-level play.
It IS about: "Does it make business sense for Paizo to publish & support epic-level play material?"
I threw out a possibility of Paizo committing significant resources towards such an effort. Others feel it's a supplement book and an adventure or two at best. The amoung of risk, if any, is probably directly proportional to the approach taken.
So if Lisa hands you the reigns for a year-long vacation in 2011, what level of Epic-level support would you choose? Not just b/c of your personal gaming tastes but rather b/c you know paychecks and sales are riding on those decisions?
While I have no interest in Epic-level play, I certainly don't begrudge those who do.
So if I put myself in the scenario above:
Single epic-level rules sourcebook = "Yeah, go for it"
1 Epic-level adventure = "Yeah, go for it"
A PF AP devoted to bridging into & then continuing with epic-level play = "Too risky, wouldn't do it."
Designating regions of Golarion as "the realms of epic play" = "No chance in hell. Too risky" (But other worlds that can reach Golarion... that's a different story.)
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I find it interesting all this distaste I keep hearing for high level play. Thinking of the people I've gamed with I cannot think of a single person who has expressed this opinion to me. In fact most of the can't wait to get to very high level.
I think it depends on your play experience, since the '70s, I've played tons of Villains & Vigilantes and GURPS (in addition to AD&D), where you *start* competent (or even awesome), and only get better by tiny increments. I much prefer this style of play, where I can play Batman or the Human Torch right out of the gate, and add a few new tricks, but nothing game changing, every few levels. D&D starts on a completely different assumption. In 1st edition, as a 'magic-user,' you had between 1 and 4 hit points, a single spell, and a dagger. 2nd level pretty much doubled your power, as you now had two spells, and twice as many hit points. Woo-hoo! And 3rd level was a whole exciting new world of 2nd level spells, with encounter-enders like Web.
Other games follow the D&D model (most online games, like Warcraft and EverQuest, for instance), so it's not something unique to D&D, but to those of us who have also gotten used to non-acquisition-based games, where you already start out capable of what you wanted to do with the character, and only marginally add new skills or stunts to flavor the character (instead of whole new levels of power), Epic D&D just feels like when EverQuest comes out with a new expansion, with 10 more levels of content, and you feel *compelled* to then grind through those 10 new levels to be 'done' again. (And gosh, as a veteran of many MMOs, EQ, DAoC, EQ2, SWG, WoW, AoC, WAR, CoH/CoV, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, I've sure been there, grinding through that new content, so that I can raid the top-tier content with my guild again...)
I'm a bigger fan of games that start your character out kinda cool, and just get a little bit cooler, as time goes on. The Batman approach. As opposed to the Superman approach, where he started out able to lift a car and jump really high, and progressed to being able to fly fast enough to punch through time, shatter planets and shoot beams hotter than the sun from his eyes. Instead of gaining power slowly and incrementally, Supes gained it logarhythmnically (yeah, I'm sure that's spelled wrong...), like a D&D spellcaster, where when he 'levels up,' he gains access to entirely new spheres and levels of spells that he never had before, that might utterly change his playstyle.
But hey, Epic has fans, as I mentioned upthread, and I'm all for Paizo making some stuff for them, even if it's not *my* cuppa joe. Indeed, the surest way to guarantee that fans of Epic rules want this product is to make sure that I *don't* want it, since our tastes are pretty close to opposite. :)
So if Lisa hands you the reigns for a year-long vacation in 2011, what level of Epic-level support would you choose? Not just b/c of your personal gaming tastes but rather b/c you know paychecks and sales are riding on those decisions?
While I have no interest in Epic-level play, I certainly don't begrudge those who do.
So if I put myself in the scenario above:
Single epic-level rules sourcebook = "Yeah, go for it"
1 Epic-level adventure = "Yeah, go for it"
A PF AP devoted to bridging into & then continuing with epic-level play = "Too risky, wouldn't do it."
Designating regions of Golarion as "the realms of epic play" = "No chance in hell. Too risky" (But other worlds that can reach Golarion... that's a different story.)
My two cents:
Single epic-level rules sourcebook = "If you can come up with something interesting and novel, yes. If it's just 'd20 turned up to d21', don't bother."
1 epic-level adventure = "Sure, given a good set of rules."
A PF AP devoted to bridging into & then continuing with epic-level play = "No, not instead of a normal adventure path. If you somehow have an infinite amount of resources, go ahead and publish an epic adventure path concurrently with a normal one."
Designating regions of Golarion as "the realms of epic play" = "No, please don't. At the very least, put some kind of barrier in between the epic and non-epic parts of the word (e.g. set it on another plane or another planet)."
I like the idea of Epic play myself.
Obviously you can't just keep things progressing as they did from 1-20. At 20th level a Rogue and Monk are 5 BAB behind the Fighter, Barbarian and Ranger, increasing that gap further would break down since there is only a 20 point range on a 20-sided die.
Thinking back to 1st edition AD&D there were rules for going beyond the max level listed. It was just something like +1,000,000 xp Gain +1 hp/level, instead of actually rolling a die. It slowed down advancement after a certain point. Of course other things continued to scale and that broke things horribly (38d6 Fireball anyone?), but the concept is still there.
As for the invisible barrier protecting mere mortals, that is pretty easy. In one of my own campaigns the characters found an amulet that they knew was magic, but they could not detect or identify it. So the the Epic Sorcerer and Priest decided that normal magic didn't have enough juice, and decided to pump some Epic magic into their detection spell. The spell powered through the artifacts natural magic resistance and immediately caught the attention of the nasty evil god that had created the item ages ago. Said nasty evil god decided that he should get his amulet back from some pesky do-gooders and sent three demons down to retrieve it. Now normally he could not take such an action without violating the obscure rules that the gods worked under, but the characters had voided that protection when they used some god-like power to blast through the artifact's protection.
So, long story short. Epic characters open themselves up to dangers that lower level characters are protected from by simply being unable to attract the attention of epic beings. After all, a 1st level character can't waltz into an ancient red dragon's lair, but a cockroach can crawl in and help itself to a meal of dragon leftovers and be completely ignored.
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I am unapologetically a fan of Epic level play. I believe that Paizo can produce a viable interpretation of 21+ level play without destroying its ability to produce lower level content at the quality demanded by its customers. If that means they take longer than expected to produce epic, I've resigned myself to that fact.
While I firmly believe that capitalism is based on the concept of "please take my money for a product/service you have that I want", if I applied the same "I don't want X level material because I rarely run it, therefore I refuse to buy anything to do with X level", you wouldn't see "Superscriber" behind my name.
For those threatening to refrain purchasing an epic level books, that's your right. Just like it's my right to say that I won't purchase anything below a certain level. Which do you think would be more disquieting? You not purchasing the few epic level materials suggested by Paizo, or people like me not purchasing ANYTHING below level 15? Neither is a happy forecast for our favorite publisher.
Fortunately, I can appreciate your preferred level of gameplay and mine its products for ideas in my games. Please don't badmouth my preferred levels when you will have had years of product by Paizo's best and brightest before my desired products see the light of day.
As always,
FP
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Most of you guys fail to notice the problem which Hogarth identified correctly.
Once we have epic rules, a natural followup will be to hand out epic content for Golarion. People will want to fight archdevils, one-shot the Whispering Tyrant, and generally blow up the whole status quo.
The problem is, the current setup of the world holds CR 20-25 challenges as the big shakers and movers of the world. If you want to lay out higher CRs in Golarion, you can:
a) place them in the current continuity, making the biggest challenges of the campaign setting obsolete (who would fear the Runelords if a Devastation Beetle is rolling around ?)
b) place them well outside the current continuity, on some other planet or plane. That could work, in theory, but why couldn't some of them just plane shift and walk over Golarion in 5 minutes ?
Also, apart from the aforementioned rules questions, the forums would be full of "we killed Orcus, Rovagug, Asmodeus and Meepo, what next ?" discussions, which would, again, draw attention and resources.
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Most of you guys fail to notice the problem which Hogarth identified correctly.
Once we have epic rules, a natural followup will be to hand out epic content for Golarion. People will want to fight archdevils, one-shot the Whispering Tyrant, and generally blow up the whole status quo.
The problem is, the current setup of the world holds CR 20-25 challenges as the big shakers and movers of the world. If you want to lay out higher CRs in Golarion, you can:
a) place them in the current continuity, making the biggest challenges of the campaign setting obsolete (who would fear the Runelords if a Devastation Beetle is rolling around ?)
b) place them well outside the current continuity, on some other planet or plane. That could work, in theory, but why couldn't some of them just plane shift and walk over Golarion in 5 minutes ?
Also, apart from the aforementioned rules questions, the forums would be full of "we killed Orcus, Rovagug, Asmodeus and Meepo, what next ?" discussions, which would, again, draw attention and resources.
If they do the epic rules right, which seems to be the goal, then they won't have to do quite as much along these lines. WoTC certainly never produced much in the way of epic adventures, and the online community in favor of epic play was more than willing to pick up the slack.
Good monster/npc leveling rules allow you to:
1) Create new demon lords/dukes of hell/advanced dragons/abominations from the depths of space.
2) Create more mundane menances that threaten entire solar systems instead of a few countries.
3) Etc.
Given the proper tools, I can adapt nearly every AP produced to date to make it epic (Its harder with CoT), but I need the rules to work with.
If they gave me one good book and a couple of good adventures, I'd be set for a long time with my PF library before me.
Pazio should take their time, and not just convert mistakes.
I need a version of epic rules that allows you to cast 10th or higher level spells instead of a system that makes Sorcerers and Wizards identical at higher levels. The backblasts and epic feats are ok. In fact, spontaneous generation of monsters and wild magic in areas where epic magic is used would be more appropriate.
Like D20 Modern, it should have been an extension of the current system, rather than a whole new system to learn.
On the off topic, if everyone is going to play monsters, the adventure path should start at 3rd level.
Why can't level 20 be epic?This +1. From my perspective and the perspective of every group I've ever gamed with, the abilities of characters in the 17-20 range are already Epic.
Actually, I tend to agree.
"Epic" should be a term that means, well, we know what the word means. It should be applicable to anyone who can do amazing stuff that is beyond the reach of pretty much everyone else. There is no "fluff" reason or simulationist reason to say "level 20 is ordinary and level 21 is EPIC!". If you're 14th level and you do epic stuff, then you're "epic".
But that doesn't mean you're using "Epic" game rules yet.
So what are "Epic" rules? Simply put, the existing game system works well (or at least, works as well as it does) up to level 20. Going beyond level 20 gets really awkward with the existing rules.
We could call it whatever we want. Post-20 Gaming Rules. Epic Rules, Super-Duper Rules. Anything. It's just that the established term for these rules has been "Epic".
So really, we're talking about one word, "epic" with two meanings:
1. Capable of doing really awesome stuff
2. Above level 20
This shouldn't really be too much of a problem. If we can all use a game sytem where the term "level" means about 8 different things depending on the context, then having "epic" mean two different things should be a snap.
All that being said, with the 3x Epic Level Handbook, I housruled a bunch of those feats to be available at lower levels. A few could even be had around level 12ish, though most were higher than that.
Then I toned down the x10 cost for magic items so that near-epic characters could afford some of it (or so I could justify it in standard treasure).
And I made the funky spellcasting words of power stuff available at 19th level (20th level for sorcerers) - right when these classes should be getting 10th level spells if the progression didn't get weird.
So I made "Epic-level content" available to "epic heroes" even if they weren't yet above level 20.
I would think it a Very Good Thing (t.m.) if Paizo's "Epic" rules included some transitional stuff for high-level heroes that aren't quite yet above level 20. In my mind, I don't believe there needs to be a hard and fast wall at level 20 and all "Epic" content must also be "Epic-level-above-20 Conetnt".
It's not that hard a concept.
I will note that I have been running a high level campaign for a couple years now (started in houseruled 3.x, converted to Pathfinder halfway through). Characters are currently level 18.
My experience is this: high level gameplay is fun, and my personal (YMMV) experience is that it isn't broken or ridiculous. Powerful, yes. Unplayable, no. But it's a lot of prep for me as a GM (writing up high level NPCs and especially high level spellcasters takes a long time).
And there is almost no material out there for me to use for this 18th level party, so I have to make it all myself, increasing my prep time. I almost wonder if there's a snake-eating-its-tail effect with regards to the sales of high level and "epic" products--where most adventures and other products are low level, so people who want to go high level make their own adventures, so then they aren't out buying adventures, and only people who buy adventures buy low level adventures, because high level players make their own, because there aren't any high level adventures, and then....
Anyway. High level play is not everyone's cup of tea. As a matter of fact, low level play is not everyone's cup of tea. But I believe there IS a market for SOME high level and "Epic" products.
What I would like to see for levels, say, 15+ (going beyond 20), are the following:
- A rulebook with guidelines for running beyond 20th level, how to level classes, a few epic feats and spells. It does not have to be insanely indepth but enough to provide a good grounding in the existing rules.
- A source, either in the same rulebook or elsewhere, of high CR NPCs, monsters, traps, and hazards good for those kind of games.
- A few fairly setting-generic modules for high level games. But NOT adventure paths. I understand the reasoning for why there are not adventure paths that start at level 14. Alternately, maybe an adventure path that goes all the...
SCAP, AoW, and STAP were written so that the individual chapters could ran as part of the AP or a module. I don't know if they fit your current campaign, but they do have high level bad guys pre-statted. You would have to convert them, but converting is easier than building.
One flaw in epic was probably giving out uncapped power to casters at level 21.I'm in no rush to see epic rules. The 3.0 rules were terrible and made no sense. In regular games to 20 the system is already breaking down. Even with the pathfinder upgrades melee classes are in danger of becoming glorified cheerleaders while the full casters are doing all of the heavy lifting.
I like that there are some high level modules on the schedule but I can do without epic rules. My group already shorten the last part of most adventure paths because we get bored of high level play quickly.
We played one epic game in 3.5 and casters completely dominated. The melee characters had to be decked out like Christmas trees in custom magic gear to even have a hope of being useful.
Paizo's has redone lots of other things and made it better so here's hoping that they can replicate the feat with epic rules, but again, I can do without.
1. How was the power untapped?
2. Paizo is not Wotc. The "it will suck because 3.5 epic rules sucked" is a fallacy.
I've said it before in other threads on this topic but it bears repeating: the reasons that epic level 3.5-based (Pathfinder) gaming has been financially unsuccessful and relegated to a 'niche' crowd of gamers, is that, as it stands currently, it is just not very fun for a majority of people. It's a lot of math, the rounds can be mindnumbingly slow due to the complexity of epic level actions and there is little to no industry support in terms of adventures and new source material.
But here's the thing...somebody has got to be the innovator. And when that company finally gets everything right with epic play, its gonna be like having a license to print money. Every industry has taboo areas that were, up to a major turning point, financially risky to pursue, or assumptions based on 'how things have always been' that limit peoples' vision as to what can be.
+10. The longest-running game I've ever played in (going on 20 years now) is epic, and having some rules to give us new ideas would be fantastic. Who better to come up with rules that work than Paizo? If they can make it fun, why wouldn't lots of people play? If they can't make it fun, they aren't exactly devoting their entire future to it and sucking money directly out of your wallet via a sinister labyrinthine system of underground tubing, so why should you care?
Seriously, screw people whose purpose appears to be forcing the rest of us to lose out on having fun. As if Paizo should be chained to serving one subset of gamers permanently, and forget any gamers who aren't mainstream, even if all they want is one freakin' rulebook. Such selfishness is shameful to behold.
I'd definitely buy epic rules.