I completely disagree. One's own moral or ethical behavior is not, and should never be, contingent on someone else's.
I was referring to the application of a standard on the discussion, not an individual's moral or ethical behavior.
If one side of an argument should "keep their biases/baggage in perspective" the other side should as well.
Yes, they should. But the first side should do so anyway, because it's the right thing to do.
Apples to oranges. The excepted "Ninja" is a rogue, it matches every single thing. The more mystic ninja has it's place but when you say "Ninja" people do not think shape shifter, or cast spells. they think "Black outfit, ninja weapons and hiding, jumping, ninja rolls, Ninja vanish, smoke bombs" and the like.
Every single thing is doable and well with the rogue other then the name. Ninja's are not magical. Your looking at a Rogue with a "mystic ninja" PRC.
You can't tell me why a ninja is not a rogue when they do the very same thing and have the very same skill set. They can even take minor and major magic. They fit in every single way except "Its Asian so its magical in all ways and better"
It is the exact same thing. Paladins exist as a core concept because there exists a tradition in European mythology of warriors with special mystic powers, beyond those ordinary fighters can achieve, empowered by their faith and general coolness to do what no one else can.
Historically, such people were fighters. Period.
But we're not dealing with history here. We're dealing with fantasy.
The parallel with the ninja is exact.
And dude, lay off the agressive projection. It's annoying. I'm a mythology-phile, not a Japanophile, and you don't seem to have the slightest ability to see anything beyond your prejudices, including what my actual opinions are.
I am willing to concede an archetype{ I don't think it is needed], switching x out for something that fits better. I find archetypes just great. For me I would just open up a bunch of "ninja" talents
I see zero need for a new class or even a sub class as there is just not enough different from the base classes to do so. Historical and popular ninjas are not magical. And the class as written mimics the Ninja to a t.
I am willing to concede an archetype{ I don't think it is needed], switching x out for something that fits better. I find archetypes just great. For me I would just open up a bunch of "ninja" talents
I see zero need for a new class or even a sub class as there is just not enough different from the base classes to do so.
Which is fine. That's absolutely an option for Paizo to take. It's just not the only way that they could go.
It is the exact same thing. Paladins exist as a core concept because there exists a tradition in European mythology of warriors with special mystic powers, beyond those ordinary fighters can achieve, empowered by their faith and general coolness to do what no one else can.
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Actually, no. Paladins like rangers are a d&disum. They are what they are because of the game. Not history and not myth. Now I do agree, barbarian could be rolled into a fighter as options or a subclass.
Non of that changes that a Ninja fills the same nitch as a rogue, and uses the very same skill set. You simply have not shown a single reason other then "It's better" why its not a rogue.
With Ninja we are not talking about something so ingrained into the game like paladins or AL's. We are talking about an Asian rogue, that people think should be better then the non Asian rogue.
Edit: I am not saying just you, but I have grown tired of the "It's Asian and better" the fighters are better, the weapons are better, the magic is more common and better, and so on.
Actually, no. Paladins like rangers are a d&disum.
It is the exact same thing. Paladins exist as a core concept because there exists a tradition in European mythology of warriors with special mystic powers, beyond those ordinary fighters can achieve, empowered by their faith and general coolness to do what no one else can.
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No, dude, they really, really aren't.
Non of that changes that a Ninja fills the same nitch as a rogue, and uses the very same skill set. You simply have not shown a single reason other then "It's better" why its not a rogue.
Once again, I'm saying "different," not better. Just as the paladin is not "better" than a fighter, the hypothetical ninja is not automatically better than a rogue, just because they might use mystical means rather than mundane ones to accomplish the same effects.
Edit: I am not saying just you, but I have grown tired of the "It's Asian and better" the fighters are better, the weapons are better, the magic is more common and better, and so on.
No one here is saying "better" but you.
I have to disagree no one is saying better. Your wanting a magical rogue that is better at being a rogue then a rogue is. That is well better. Your implying it be better at what it does because it's a "ninja" Jumps spell and spider climb are better then aerobatics and climb. two things you have said a "ninja" should be able to do
A Ninja is just a Rogue, you can disagree till your blue in the face and it's still a rogue. If I go ask 10 people what a ninja is, 8 of em will give me an answer that pretty much is a pathfinder rogue. Very few will tell me it's a shape shifter or casts spells and the like.
Some will say its uses it's "chi" to pull off inhuman feats of skill, but that is any pc past level 3 or 4 to be honest. Past 6 and we are well past normal human skill anyhow.
Your mystical Ninja is multi classed or a PRC.
Carpy DM, you forgot to include Joan of Arc in your examples of paladins. In the real world, she may have just been delusional, but in a fantasy setting she would very much be a paladin.
seeker, I am one of those people who does not believe that a ninja is just a rogue by another name. If anything, they are an assassin by another name, and in the history of D&D assassins have generally been their own class as well. And because we are talking about a fantasy version of the ninja and not a historical version, I do not believe just an archetype, where you get four or five alternate abilities over the course of 20 levels would come anywhere near to properly portraying a ninja. I also do not think it needs a full base class either, so I feel a prestige class would work.
Now, a samurai is a little easier, but it is still not just the same as a fighter but with another name. I say this because of the spiritual and mystical side of the samurai A re-skinned cavalier with their own Eastern orders would work well for a samurai, or possibly a paladin that follows an ideal rather than a deity because of the honor code and all that.
Something like a Shaolin monk is a lot easier to do, since the D&D/PRPG monk is already an eastern monk without the mysticism, and the monk archetypes in the APG seem to cover a lot of this already.
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The Shrine Maiden would have to be a subclass at the very least. the closest thematically appropriate classes (cleric and oracle) really don't have enough features to swap for shrine maiden appropriate ones nor do either of them have the skill ranks a shrine maiden is supposed to have. (i would say 4+int). Shrine maidens didn't wear armor at all, thier excess of Chi or spiritual energy provided supernatural defenses of which armor interfered with (closest thing being monk AC bonus). they also frequently threw Ofuda for quite a while (enough to enter warlock eldritch blast/reserve feat territory) and did fairly decent amounts of damage with that, they were also full progression divine casters who could channel spiritual energy (channel energy). they also fought a lot more Oni and Yokai (both are Native Outsiders) than they did undead. a lot of these abilities would be more than just an archtype can allow on it's own. especially for cleric and oracle which are ill suited to archtypes due to being short on class features of thier own that do not come from domains/mysteries.
I have to disagree no one is saying better. Your wanting a magical rogue that is better at being a rogue then a rogue is. That is well better. Your implying it be better at what it does because it's a "ninja" Jumps spell and spider climb are better then aerobatics and climb. two things you have said a "ninja" should be able to do
Are you kidding? The base class writeup of the rogue is three pages long. I wrote a single sentence. If you're seeing "better" in that, it's because you are putting it there. Particularly since, as you yourself have pointed out, any 4th level rogue who wants it can get jump or vanish anyway. (And slippers of spider climbing are all of 4800 gold pieces.)
Carpy DM, you forgot to include Joan of Arc in your examples of paladins. In the real world, she may have just been delusional, but in a fantasy setting she would very much be a paladin.
The paladin's roots are in Arthurian legends, which themselves are an outgrowth of (and I personally believe a cultural reaction to) the Charlemangian romances that comprise the Matter of France. (I tend to think that the English romance cycles were sponsored in part of create a "Matter of Britain" that could rival the French traditions, sicne Britain spent so much of its cultural history trying to prove to itself and everyone around that is was not France.) Looking back on her, Joan would make a beautiful example of a paladin, but she just never had the mythic cycles grow up around her the way the Arthurian and Charlemangian cycles did, so I don't think she inspired even close to as much of the actual paladin "image" as the romances did.
The Shrine Maiden would have to be a subclass at the very least. the closest thematically appropriate classes (cleric and oracle) really don't have enough features to swap for shrine maiden appropriate ones nor do either of them have the skill ranks a shrine maiden is supposed to have. (i would say 4+int). Shrine maidens didn't wear armor at all, thier excess of Chi or spiritual energy provided supernatural defenses of which armor interfered with (closest thing being monk AC bonus). they also frequently threw Ofuda for quite a while (enough to enter warlock eldritch blast/reserve feat territory) and did fairly decent amounts of damage with that, they were also full progression divine casters who could channel spiritual energy (channel energy). they also fought a lot more Oni and Yokai (both are Native Outsiders) than they did undead.
Ok, I'm going to extrapolate (incorrectly, I'm sure as I'm not familiar with the source material you're citing) & see if I'm reading this correctly:
You call out "doesn't wear armor" but I'm guessing they're at least on par combat-wise with a med-BAB since you cite Cleric & Oracle.
Med BAB
AC boost ala Monk
Channel energy
Full-progression divine caster
Warlock equivalent-style eldritch blast & reserve feats (neither of which exist in Pathfinder)
4+ int skills
And people wonder why some of us fear the "but better" influence might come into play?
Could such a class work? Perhaps. But the combo of full-divine caster + warlock blasts + channel energy has "RED ALERT" blaring over the loudspeakers & flashing red lights going off everywhere.
The Shrine Maiden would have to be a subclass at the very least. the closest thematically appropriate classes (cleric and oracle) really don't have enough features to swap for shrine maiden appropriate ones nor do either of them have the skill ranks a shrine maiden is supposed to have. (i would say 4+int). Shrine maidens didn't wear armor at all, thier excess of Chi or spiritual energy provided supernatural defenses of which armor interfered with (closest thing being monk AC bonus). they also frequently threw Ofuda for quite a while (enough to enter warlock eldritch blast/reserve feat territory) and did fairly decent amounts of damage with that, they were also full progression divine casters who could channel spiritual energy (channel energy). they also fought a lot more Oni and Yokai (both are Native Outsiders) than they did undead. a lot of these abilities would be more than just an archtype can allow on it's own. especially for cleric and oracle which are ill suited to archtypes due to being short on class features of thier own that do not come from domains/mysteries.
Mmmm... no. Traditional miko, oracles of lore or bones, depending on focus. More modern mystical miko, inquisitors (or potentially an archetype of same).
I think Nekogami just unified everyone in the "No, Hell no" category just then.
I think Nekogami just unified everyone in the "No, Hell no" category just then.
SN wouldn't be the one writing the class(es), however.
I think Nekogami just unified everyone in the "No, Hell no" category just then.SN wouldn't be the one writing the class(es), however.
SERIOUSLY?!?!?
We now return you to your regularly scheduled disagreement.
SERIOUSLY?!?!?I think Nekogami just unified everyone in the "No, Hell no" category just then.SN wouldn't be the one writing the class(es), however.
i won't be writing these classes whatsoever. i'm sorry if i have been on a shrine maiden kick. i just spent the last 5 days reading poorly made Touhou Fanfiction and pounding mountain dew. my brain hasn't been working right. that posting of an overpowered unbalanced list of abilities came from me being under the influence of a lack of sleep, an excess of sugar and days of reading Touhou fanfic. the only reason i can barely think rational thoughts right now is that i took a 10 minute rest in my desk chair.
Cavaliers, rangers, paladins, barbarians.
All four of those could just be fighters.
I again do not see the big problem with having a new base class in the Non-European book, seeing as how all four of those are very clearly fantasy European based classes that were extrapolated from the base "fighting man"
And all four work as Asian theme as well as they do European theme. They are classes not cultures. I am not seeing your point.
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I have to disagree no one is saying better. Your wanting a magical rogue that is better at being a rogue then a rogue is. That is well better. Your implying it be better at what it does because it's a "ninja" Jumps spell and spider climb are better then aerobatics and climb. two things you have said a "ninja" should be able to do
A Ninja is just a Rogue, you can disagree till your blue in the face and it's still a rogue. If I go ask 10 people what a ninja is, 8 of em will give me an answer that pretty much is a pathfinder rogue. Very few will tell me it's a shape shifter or casts spells and the like.
Some will say its uses it's "chi" to pull off inhuman feats of skill, but that is any pc past level 3 or 4 to be honest. Past 6 and we are well past normal human skill anyhow.
Your mystical Ninja is multi classed or a PRC.
I could not disagree with you more.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rogue
Rogues are scoundrels and thieves who hit peoples weaknesses. A sneak attack is often a cheap shot. Feinting to sneak attack is equivalent to distracting someone, then kicking them in the nuts.
They lie, cheat and steal their way into our hearts with their...well, roguish charm.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ninja
Ninjas are highly trained, martial arts master assassins who kill without being seen.
Just because WoTC made a crappy Ninja class based on the rogue doesn't mean that is the way to go. Like I said before, I wouldn't even give Ninja's the rogue sneak attack. I would model them off of the Monk, probably trading flurry and some of the healing and resistances for full BAB and some of the Ninja magical abilities such as invisibility being pulled out of a ki pool.
now that i got out of the shower recently and feel somewhat mentally refreshed. i can say that i feel no qualms towards new subclasses, archtypes, nor base classes. but i still have to deal with the sugar and fatigue for a while. so please accept an advance apology for any other accidental blurtings induced by what i did during the last 5 days. i cannot trust my brain right now, it is going back and forth between rational thought and irrational geekdom.
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Ninjas are honorable highly trained, martial arts master assassins who kill without being seen.
Not sure where you are getting the idea they were honourable unless you are going by modern versions of them. Kind of funny that many people are asking for an asian themed class yet want the westernised version of them.
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Ninjas are honorable highly trained, martial arts master assassins who kill without being seen.
Not sure where you are getting the idea they were honourable unless you are going by modern versions of them. Kind of funny that many people are asking for an asian themed class yet want the westernised version of them.
Fair enough. Still highly trained martial arts master with legendary magical powers. So still not a rogue. I will correct above.
And before anyone says "Real ninjas weren't magic" real "wizards" weren't either...if we wanted real, there would be no dragons either.
they also frequently threw Ofuda for quite a while (enough to enter warlock eldritch blast/reserve feat territory) and did fairly decent amounts of damage with thatWhy would throwing a piece of material with a charm written on it do damage like an eldritch blast?
the divine power of the charm written on parchment combined with the potency of the Shrine Maiden's unusually powerful reserve of chi. dealing 1d6 for first level shrine maidens, and dealing 10d6 damage for 19th level shrine maidens. but the damage is still laughable in level appropriate scenarios. the shrine maiden imbues the parchment before throwing it.
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The paladin's roots are in Arthurian legends, which themselves are an outgrowth of (and I personally believe a cultural reaction to) the Charlemangian romances that comprise the Matter of France. (I tend to think that the English romance cycles were sponsored in part of create a "Matter of Britain" that could rival the French traditions, since Britain spent so much of its cultural history trying to prove to itself and everyone around that is was not France.) Looking back on her, Joan would make a beautiful example of a paladin, but she just never had the mythic cycles grow up around her the way the Arthurian and Charlemangian cycles did, so I don't think she inspired even close to as much of the actual paladin "image" as the romances did.
Blimey!
Taliesin and Aneirin may be mythic/legendary figures but the Arthurian tales attributed to them are clearly sufficiently ancient in their oral preservation and depict a pre-christian, pre-romance culture utterly devoid of French influence. Have you even read the Mabinogion?
The French influence was not competition, it was a joining/synthesis created by the Norman conquests.
The blanket statement that: "Britain spent so much of its cultural history trying to prove to itself and everyone around that is was not France." is, frankly, breathtaking and I would be seriously shocked/impressed if you could back up that claim.
[Pedant]And it's not Charlemangian, the term is Carolingian[/pedant]
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the divine power of the charm written on parchment combined with the potency of the Shrine Maiden's unusually powerful reserve of chi. dealing 1d6 for first level shrine maidens, and dealing 10d6 damage for 19th level shrine maidens. but the damage is still laughable in level appropriate scenarios. the shrine maiden imbues the parchment before throwing it.they also frequently threw Ofuda for quite a while (enough to enter warlock eldritch blast/reserve feat territory) and did fairly decent amounts of damage with thatWhy would throwing a piece of material with a charm written on it do damage like an eldritch blast?
I have no idea if that is in keeping with tradition but it sounds awesome!
Could Shrine Maidens be an oracle archetype?
the divine power of the charm written on parchment combined with the potency of the Shrine Maiden's unusually powerful reserve of chi. dealing 1d6 for first level shrine maidens, and dealing 10d6 damage for 19th level shrine maidens. but the damage is still laughable in level appropriate scenarios. the shrine maiden imbues the parchment before throwing it.they also frequently threw Ofuda for quite a while (enough to enter warlock eldritch blast/reserve feat territory) and did fairly decent amounts of damage with thatWhy would throwing a piece of material with a charm written on it do damage like an eldritch blast?I have no idea if that is in keeping with tradition but it sounds awesome!
Could Shrine Maidens be an oracle archetype?
i beleive that could work.
RE: Ninja. See Anchorite.
That is all.
And all four work as Asian theme as well as they do European theme. They are classes not cultures. I am not seeing your point.
You are missing my point. There were four classes modeled after European/Medieval style fighting characters rather then simple archtypes of the initial fighting man. That they could then be altered further to become Asian-esque is irrelevant.
The argument is "Should there be a new base class" and the argument was "No, there's already a rogue." Well, there was already a fighter, and yet we have those four alternate classes.
The paladin's roots are in Arthurian legends, which themselves are an outgrowth of (and I personally believe a cultural reaction to) the Charlemangian romances that comprise the Matter of France. (I tend to think that the English romance cycles were sponsored in part of create a "Matter of Britain" that could rival the French traditions, since Britain spent so much of its cultural history trying to prove to itself and everyone around that is was not France.) Looking back on her, Joan would make a beautiful example of a paladin, but she just never had the mythic cycles grow up around her the way the Arthurian and Charlemangian cycles did, so I don't think she inspired even close to as much of the actual paladin "image" as the romances did.Blimey!
Taliesin and Aneirin may be mythic/legendary figures but the Arthurian tales attributed to them are clearly sufficiently ancient in their oral preservation and depict a pre-christian, pre-romance culture utterly devoid of French influence. Have you even read the Mabinogion?
I was talking specifically in the context of D&D paladins. The Arthurian tradition of course goes back much further than the romances - they got it from somewhere, obviously - but the paladin elements (holy warrior, miracles from faith, rigid codes of behavior, etc.) clearly come out of the romance tradition. I'm not trying to make claims in any broader context there.
The French influence was not competition, it was a joining/synthesis created by the Norman conquests.
The blanket statement that: "Britain spent so much of its cultural history trying to prove to itself and everyone around that is was not France." is, frankly, breathtaking and I would be seriously shocked/impressed if you could back up that claim.
I'll send you a copy of my thesis when I finish it. ;)
I have a rather postcolonial view of British Renaissance and medieval literature, particularly in the wake of the Conquest (though the tradition of the British Isles getting flattened by some Continental imperial power and then slowly adapting to and absorbing elements of that power into the native cultural milieu goes back a long, long way). In particular, the view of the English toward their own culture, literature and language seems to reflect a deep disconnect between a nascent nationalism that runs throughout the period and an equal sense of inadequacy as compared with their Continental rivals, in particular France, with whom they shared a huge amount of complicated and bloody history. That kind of internal conflict is almost diagnostic of colonized cultures, and I think it explains a lot of English - and, in large part, British - history as a result.
Needless to say, "joining/synthesis" is not exactly the way I describe the Norman impact on English letters.
[Pedant]And it's not Charlemangian, the term is Carolingian[/pedant]
(nods) But this is a D&D forum, not a scholarly journal. I decided the wrong-but-intelligible-to-random-posters term would better suit my intended audience. (shrug)
If rogue = ninja & Grey Mouser = rogue, then Grey Mouser = ninja?
Syntax Error. Does not compute.
Psst. GRAY Mouser.
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The argument is "Should there be a new base class" and the argument was "No, there's already a rogue." Well, there was already a fighter, and yet we have those four alternate classes.
So? We can't stop what is already done, I can lobby against new classes with no reason to be other then "But it's Asian" And I will keep doing so.
There is zero reason for a new class other then "But it's Asian!" I'll concede archetypes but not things like a sub class {Not for a Ninja/samurai anyhow}. Because we have 4 types of fighter is zero reason to make a 5th. No the 4 we have all fit the theme some as is and some with a bit of switching.
And Ciretose, I laughed hard at both "Honorable warrior and It can't be a ninja as its a rogue" The Rogue mechanics match the ninja almost 100% so saying it wont work because the name is not Ninja is just laughable to me.
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I think rather then ninja there should be a base class for a wuxia style character, who could then have an archtype that is ninja-esque. It could not only allow for both the "samurai" and the "ninja" as they appear in fantasy but could also be used to create fantastic warriors of other, non-Japanese countries.
+1
What is Tian Xia? I have not read past the first post so I am assuming it is a Paizo's version of Rokugan(Oriental/Eastern Setting).
What is Tian Xia? I have not read past the first post so I am assuming it is a Paizo's version of Rokugan(Oriental/Eastern Setting).
It is in the golarion setting book not alot of info but yeah it is the east, and not just one area but like the Inner sea many nations and they drawl inspiration form many eastern cultures not just japan
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What is Tian Xia? I have not read past the first post so I am assuming it is a Paizo's version of Rokugan(Oriental/Eastern Setting).
You are correct. Tian Xia is equivalent to "the Orient" in general in the minds of Avistanis. A specifically Japanese analogy/mythology would be the location of the Minkai Empire, a sub-region in Tian Xia. Tian-La and Tian Xia are more equivalent to Tibet and China (at least from what I've interpreted from p.157 in the Campaign Setting book).
What is Tian Xia? I have not read past the first post so I am assuming it is a Paizo's version of Rokugan(Oriental/Eastern Setting).It's where the ninja class operates.
Nah Rogues are not just limited to Tian Xia.
Nah Yakuza is a organization not a class {Could see it having a few PRC's though}.
Ninja=Rogue.
Nah Rogues are not just limited to Tian Xia.What is Tian Xia? I have not read past the first post so I am assuming it is a Paizo's version of Rokugan(Oriental/Eastern Setting).It's where the ninja class operates.
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