*lots of good stuff*
Just remember that Golarion is a fantasy world, with a couple of small exceptions, and that should not change with an Asian-themed area. It should not be some accurate recreation of feudal Japan or the Three Kingdoms Period of China. It should also not include elements from a lot of the current anime, manga or live-action movies that would better go into a Modern or Sci-Fi setting. Tian Xia should include elements from movies like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and The Forbidden Kingdom.
Phew, this thread is depressing. Every "I want my favorite anime/wuxia/Hong-Kong-movie stuff in this" post makes me dread this book, its AP, and its probable support material more.I'm curious to hear how you think we might be able to pull it off in a way that you wouldn't dread, but would actually look forward to.
Erik, I don't doubt that you guys can make a book like that which is well-rounded and appealing to people who are interested in a pseudo-Asian fantasy game. But that's just not me, I like my fantasy game to be western, and an "asian" settign with new rules tailored especially to that setting is more like a completely different gerne and a completely different game to me, and it is a game I'm not interested in playing.
It's similar to that I like watching fantasy movies, but that doesn't automatically mean that I like movies based in asian myth. To be honest, I haven't seen a single asian movie that has really clicked with me, maybe it's that the mindset you need to understand these movies is too otherworldly for me, or maybe it's the fact that not being able to understand the language that prevents me from being able to connect (dubbing robs any film of its emotionality, and subtitles still don't help you get that either), I don't know. I just know that I simply don't enjoy that genre.
I'm not actually dreading the book itself, more the reactions that it will bring to this board.
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(dubbing robs any film of its emotionality, and subtitles still don't help you get that either)
As a huge fan of Asian cinema, I disagree. But to each his own, I suppose.
Really, what I'm hoping for out of Tian Xia is that Paizo doesn't create a bunch of new mechanics for Asian-inspired fantasy. I want to see the current mechanics reflavored, and a small number of new things, just like we would see for a new European-inspired fantasy region. You don't need to write up a new version of cleric just because you've got different deities and a different philosophy; at most, you might need a new domain or (more reasonably) a new subdomain. Even a class archetype for a version of cleric that channels against ghosts and incorporeal outsiders instead of all undead would be fine (I wrote one of those up for the Pathfinder version of Ronin, in fact).
But you genuinely do not need whole new base classes to represent things like ninja or samurai or lin kuei or Shaolin boxers or sikh warriors or... You see my point. Those things can already be represented by the existing classes, maybe with a new class archetype or two.
What James said about Tian Xia being based partly off Asia and partly off nothing in particular really pleased me, since one of the things I like best about Golarion is that not every place in it is a direct analogue of a real-world country. I want Tian Xia to feel like Asia, not to be Asia.
Jeremy Puckett
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Speaking personally, I love the idea that ultimately Paizo will explore all of the different geographical regions of Golarion - regardless of whether they are inspired by European, Asian, African, or Meso-American cultural models. That's something that has never really been done properly for a published campaign setting before - the closest analogue is probably the boxed sets that TSR released for the Forgotten Realms in the early 1990s that described Kara-Tur, the Hordelands, and Maztica. But in that case there was no disciplined, systematic approach to developing a consistent artistic vision.
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I'm actually really hoping that there will be no new gods, or at most just a few.
One of the things that originally excited me about Golarion was the idea that we would have twenty gods and no more. I was kinda disappointed when we got a bunch of elven gods, gnome gods, giant gods etc etc.
But thankfully the major gods are still clearly the Big 20.
The racial gods are often operating under members of the Big20 (dwarves) or as a minor part of pantheistic worship (elves) and that rocks. I love that the monsters are worshipping Lamashtu, Rovagug, Asmodeus or Zon-Kuthon rather than having eight goblin gods, seven goblin gods, blah blah, snore...
I would hope that any new religious flavour can be covered by different churches/interpretations of the Big20. The East-Asian religious stereotypes I am aware of seem to fit under Adabar, Irori, Lamashtu, Desna, Nethys and Zon-Kuthon but I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to the region we are now, apparently, calling Asia.
Some people have referred to philosophies as well, which is interesting, although Golarion features a hearty reference to the French Revolution, which definitely had its philosophical component we haven't really heard any other transposition of the diverse schools of European philosophy in Golarion - Philosophies of Golarion would be an interesting read.
I am honestly very excited about the upcoming attractions. Especially the Tian Xia hardcover!
I have no qualms at all about Paizo giving the area the right spin and feel - and by and large the balance of powers and flavor has hit the mark pretty well most of the time.
It can be expected that monks will finally receive some quality love; as some monk related feats/items/packages have felt half-hearted or poorly thought through in my opinion (ki crystals, and the unclarity on whether the "necklace of ki serenity" includes early access to higher-level ki powers such as abundant step come to mind).
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Again, I'm not a big fan of asian-themed stuff, but it certainly makes since for it to exist in Golarion and for Paizo to explore it some in their materials.
The thing I least look forward to is the "internet noise" that is bound to ensue when Paizo starts messing around with someone's beloved samurai and ninja and katanas aren't the most uber-awesomest weapons of the game. I mean, didn't WotC ban the mention of katanas on their forums for a while because the arguments got so out-of-hand? Stuff like that detracts from the otherwise awesome community atmosphere here and severely damages my calm.
-Skeld
The thing I least look forward to is the "internet noise" that is bound to ensue when Paizo starts messing around with someone's beloved samurai and ninja and katanas aren't the most uber-awesomest weapons of the game. I mean, didn't WotC ban the mention of katanas on their forums for a while because the arguments got so out-of-hand? Stuff like that detracts from the otherwise awesome community atmosphere here and severely damages my calm.
That is exactly what I was originally referring to when I was talking about my mounting dread. Not the book itself.
Phew, this thread is depressing. Every "I want my favorite anime/wuxia/Hong-Kong-movie stuff in this" post makes me dread this book, its AP, and its probable support material more.I'm curious to hear how you think we might be able to pull it off in a way that you wouldn't dread, but would actually look forward to.
No idea how achievable it is nor how interesting to others it would be. Nonetheless, as another not-that-into-Oriental-Adventures subscriber, what would make the books interesting to me would be stuff about the tie-in and connections between Tian Xia and the Inner Sea. It's a nebulous idea that I struggle to articulate, but I'm thinking along the lines of information on playing Inner Sea characters in Tian Xia, playing oriental characters in the inner sea - connections between the two continents, etcetera.
I have no interest in a self-contained Asian world, but am keen to know everthing there is to know about Golarion - to make it accessible and exciting to me, that will involve how the new bits "fit in" with the bits I already know.
That's not very clear now I look back at it, but I'm afraid it's the best I can do.
I want to throw out the comment that I'm really looking forward to this supplement. I know that negative voices are often the loudest, so I want to make sure there are plenty of positive voices out there as well.
Re: Tian Xia will turn Pathfinder in anime, and I hate all things animated. (that "statement" was hyperbole, no one actually said that)
IMO, Pathfinder RPG is a terrible system for representing anime, but if you want to use it for that, more power to you. Please understand that there are plenty of people out there who want an Asian themed supplement for a variety of reasons. Just because you don't care about Tian Xia doesn't mean Paizo shouldn't do it. Finally, no one is making you buy the book.
Re: I hate everyone who loves anime, especially if they come to my boards and rehash arguments we've had a million times before. (again, hyperbole)
I've been lurking on the boards for about a year, and there are a LOT of threads rehashing the same topics over and over again, even without an Asian-themed book. One supplement is not going to significantly change that.
Re: I hate everyone who loves anime, especially if they come to my boards and rehash arguments we've had a million times before. (again, hyperbole)
I've been lurking on the boards for about a year, and there are a LOT of threads rehashing the same topics over and over again, even without an Asian-themed book. One supplement is not going to significantly change that.
look at how many times hide in plain sight and dexterity based damage threads were rehashed. word for word. look at how many pointless questions are asked pertaining to sneak attack.
heres my opinion on the RAW. if the rules as written do not Explicitly say you cannot do something, than you can do it.
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I want to throw out the comment that I'm really looking forward to this supplement. I know that negative voices are often the loudest, so I want to make sure there are plenty of positive voices out there as well.
+1
I'm no expert on Asian history or geography or anything else history-related and I've never really been much of a fan of Asia-inspired campaign settings. Certainly never played in any of them.
I'm just looking forward to some well-written material from Paizo that'll expand on the world that's fast becoming my favorite fantasy setting. Based on the top quality material I've purchased from Paizo over the years, I'm stoked about next year's change of scenery and I can't wait to see what fun stuff Paizo comes up with.
I don't have any set expectations about how this material will turn out or how it'll affect the forums (how can I since it's not really in the production stage yet, as far as I understand it?). I'm just looking forward to some inspirational reading that'll help me in my games. If I like what I read, I'll definitely use it. If not, then I won't use it. Either way, a lot of gamers will use it and that's awesome.
This will sound rude, but if you're utterly uninterested in asian mythology, asian culture, and you feel fantasy needs to be European-only...
...This really probably isn't a book that will appeal to you :p
Yeah, I get that some people aren't into this stuff, but not every product is handmade specifically for you. Other people - myself included - love this kinda thing.
I'm actually really hoping that there will be no new gods, or at most just a few.
One of the things that originally excited me about Golarion was the idea that we would have twenty gods and no more. I was kinda disappointed when we got a bunch of elven gods, gnome gods, giant gods etc etc.
But thankfully the major gods are still clearly the Big 20.
The racial gods are often operating under members of the Big20 (dwarves) or as a minor part of pantheistic worship (elves) and that rocks. I love that the monsters are worshipping Lamashtu, Rovagug, Asmodeus or Zon-Kuthon rather than having eight goblin gods, seven goblin gods, blah blah, snore...
I would hope that any new religious flavour can be covered by different churches/interpretations of the Big20. The East-Asian religious stereotypes I am aware of seem to fit under Adabar, Irori, Lamashtu, Desna, Nethys and Zon-Kuthon but I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to the region we are now, apparently, calling Asia.
Some people have referred to philosophies as well, which is interesting, although Golarion features a hearty reference to the French Revolution, which definitely had its philosophical component we haven't really heard any other transposition of the diverse schools of European philosophy in Golarion - Philosophies of Golarion would be an interesting read.
I agree with some of what you say -- but the Campaign Setting does make it clear that Tian Xia and Vudra have their own gods. Irori, Desna, and Erastil are present in Tian Xia, but there are local divinities as well. Philosophies of Golarions sounds cool!
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and of course, the ever-present "Katanas MUST be the uber-weapon of any game" are cropping up.
Katana
Cost: 1200 gpDamage (S): 2d10
Damage (M): 4d8
Critical: 12-20 / ×8
Range: -
Weight: 5 lbs.
Type: S and P
Special: Monk
All katanas are considered masterwork weapons. Any "katana" that is made and does not meet masterwork requirements is instead treated as one of those dull pointless clubs that barbarians from the West have the temerity to call swords. Katanas can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat. A katana can cut through any substance, no matter how hard or thick it is. This includes magical effects. A critical hit from a katana has a 97% chance of outright killing the victim, regardless of hit points. If this occurs, the victim is cut so badly that he can never be resurrected by any means...even direct divine intervention. Katana's automatically nullify any divine or magical defenses. This includes those of all deities. Katanas ignore armor, and any bonuses towards the target's AC. Anyone holding a katana automatically gains 10 levels in the class of their choosing. If the class of their choosing is Monk, they instead gain 25 levels, and automatically become greater gods.
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This will sound rude, but if you're utterly uninterested in asian mythology, asian culture, and you feel fantasy needs to be European-only...
...This really probably isn't a book that will appeal to you :p
Yeah, I get that some people aren't into this stuff, but not every product is handmade specifically for you. Other people - myself included - love this kinda thing.
It didn't sound rude, but it did sound so utterly obvious as to be practically worthless as a statement of fact.
When Paizo announces plans, or discusses their plans, to release a product I really like and am excited about, I try to post comments to reflect the fact that I personally like the idea behind that product. Naturally, when Paizo plans to release I'm not interested in, I try to post comments to the fact that I'm not interested in that product (or just as importantly, what subjects they could include to make me interested in the product). It's not a matter of coming hear to spread gloom; it's a matter of providing feedback (positive or negative) from a consumer of their products. I don't expect Paizo to tailor-make products for me, but I'm sure they appreciate honest, reasonable, non-inflammatory feedback on their releases.
The fact is, I'm a subscriber and I'll purchase the product regardless of my level of enthusiasm. This is because: 1) it's a Paizo product so I know it'll be the best darned asian-themed sourcebook that I've ever been not particularly interested in; 2) I'd kinda like to have a complete set of Golarion books; and 3) there will doubtlessly be nuggets in the there I can mine out.
In my experience across a number of gamer/gaming-related forums, no other cultural fantasy genre takes otherwise reasonable gamers and turns them into vitriol-spewing, mouth-frothing, psychopaths faster than "samurai shouldn't be a class," "ninjas aren't uber killers," and "katanas can't cut through armor." It's happened before on other boards and it was unpleasant. I have faith that the majority of folks that post here well be reasonable, but there's bound to be a minority that will be intent on causing mayhem. That's really what I least look forward to in this entire process (it's too anime; it's not anime enough; it's too wuxia; it's not wuxia enough; I can't recreate fight scenes from Crouching Tiger, hidden Dragon; etc., ad naseum).
Now, personally, I find the first part of your quote to be intentionally inflammatory and intellectually dishonest. I know I don't expect my fantasy RPGs to be European only. I'm quite happy with European, Arabian, African, and Asian analogues coexisting in my fantasy world. Some I'll use more than others. I think a few of your statements have been aimed and barbed in such a way as to imply some posters are being racist, when there haven't been any sort of racist statements made. I think that reflects more on you far more than it does any other poster here. It's sad really.
-Skeld
and of course, the ever-present "Katanas MUST be the uber-weapon of any game" are cropping up.Katana
Cost: 1200 gp
Damage (S): 2d10
Damage (M): 4d8
Critical: 12-20 / ×8
Range: -
Weight: 5 lbs.
Type: S and P
Special: MonkAll katanas are considered masterwork weapons. Any "katana" that is made and does not meet masterwork requirements is instead treated as one of those dull pointless clubs that barbarians from the West have the temerity to call swords. Katanas can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat. A katana can cut through any substance, no matter how hard or thick it is. This includes magical effects. A critical hit from a katana has a 97% chance of outright killing the victim, regardless of hit points. If this occurs, the victim is cut so badly that he can never be resurrected by any means...even direct divine intervention. Katana's automatically nullify any divine or magical defenses. This includes those of all deities. Katanas ignore armor, and any bonuses towards the target's AC. Anyone holding a katana automatically gains 10 levels in the class of their choosing. If the class of their choosing is Monk, they instead gain 25 levels, and automatically become greater gods.
~laughter~ Smartass!
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While I will admit that I don't have any particular interest in a pseudo-Asian setting (feel free to accuse me of racism now), I'm sure to pick up at the very least the PDFs, since 1) I'm a bit of a completionist, and 2) I am interested to see how Paizo handles them. But like other posters have expressed in this thread already, what I really kind of dread is the boards erupting with Japanophiles enraged over the fact that a 1st level samurai isn't approximately equal in power to a 20th level fighter, a katana isn't what my previous post joking suggested it should be, etc. We all know that unless Asian characters are handed an "insta-win" button some of those people will surface. And I find them annoying as hell.
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While I will admit that I don't have any particular interest in a pseudo-Asian setting (feel free to accuse me of racism now), I'm sure to pick up at the very least the PDFs, since 1) I'm a bit of a completionist, and 2) I am interested to see how Paizo handles them. But like other posters have expressed in this thread already, what I really kind of dread is the boards erupting with Japanophiles enraged over the fact that a 1st level samurai isn't approximately equal in power to a 20th level fighter, a katana isn't what my previous post joking suggested it should be, etc. We all know that unless Asian characters are handed an "insta-win" button some of those people will surface. And I find them annoying as hell.
I have accused posters of backhanded racism in the past, so let me assure you that just saying "This doesn't interest me" isn't racist. =3
And as a Japanophile, I sincerely hope that Paizo looks at the whole thing with a level head and an open mind. They generally have in the past, so I have real hope. Making Asian characters more powerful than European characters is a deep and abiding flaw that has plagued roleplaying since its earliest incarnations, and it has its roots all the way back in the literature that inspired roleplaying treating Asia as somehow more "mysterious" and "exotic" than other places.
Honestly, ever since I went back to run Rise of the Runelords again for my group, I've been a lot less worried about the whole thing. The Kaijitsu family is from Tian Xia, and they're depicted as just being another fixture of Sandpoint; they're a local family with domestic problems whose ancestors came from somewhere so far away that most people don't really know much about it. They're not especially exotic (except in appearance, maybe) or mysterious (except inasmuch as there's a family secret, but it's one that any family could have), and they don't have any built-in weird pseudo-Asian mumbo-jumbo.
That's what I want from Tian Xia: Asian flavor without trying to be Asia; a sense of historicity and context (eg, "samurai" has to be used to actually mean something like "noble" or even "mounted warrior", the same way I would expect "knight" to mean something familiar); an emphasis not just on differences but on similarities; and that differences be meaningful cultural ones, not arbitrary mechanical distinctions. The presentation of the Kaijitsu family gives me hope that my desires will be met, though I'm not sure how much I can realistically draw about a current product from the very first Pathfinder product. XD
Jeremy Puckett
Creative Director
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Since the Kaijitsus (Ameiko in particular) are a key part of the Jade Regent Adventure Path, you can certainly expect that style of presentation of Asian Characters to grow.
As for how Paizo will handle Asian stuff... it'll be handled the same way we've handled European, Middle Eastern, African, and Russian elements in previous APs and books. I have no intention of making Asian characters superpowerful, nor do I intend to treat them as racist caricatures. I suppose I won't really have PROOF of this until the books start coming out about a year from now, though... ;P
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I have accused posters of backhanded racism in the past, so let me assure you that just saying "This doesn't interest me" isn't racist. =3And as a Japanophile, I sincerely hope that Paizo looks at the whole thing with a level head and an open mind. They generally have in the past, so I have real hope. Making Asian characters more powerful than European characters is a deep and abiding flaw that has plagued roleplaying since its earliest incarnations, and it has its roots all the way back in the literature that inspired roleplaying treating Asia as somehow more "mysterious" and "exotic" than other places.
Honestly, ever since I went back to run Rise of the Runelords again for my group, I've been a lot less worried about the whole thing. The Kaijitsu family is from Tian Xia, and they're depicted as just being another fixture of Sandpoint; they're a local family with domestic problems whose ancestors came from somewhere so far away that most people don't really know much about it. They're not especially exotic (except in appearance, maybe) or mysterious (except inasmuch as there's a family secret, but it's one that any family could have), and they don't have any built-in weird pseudo-Asian mumbo-jumbo.
That's what I want from Tian Xia: Asian flavor without trying to be Asia; a sense of historicity and context (eg, "samurai" has to be used to actually mean something like "noble" or even "mounted warrior", the same way I would expect "knight" to mean something familiar); an emphasis not just on differences but on similarities; and that differences be meaningful cultural ones, not arbitrary mechanical distinctions. The presentation of the Kaijitsu family gives me hope that my desires will be met, though I'm not sure how much I can realistically draw about a current product from the very first Pathfinder product. XD
Jeremy Puckett
All very good stuff Jeremy, and mirroring my own thoughts on the subject(s) almost exactly.
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I love everything Paizo does, so therefore, I am of no use in this thread. Other than that, I will say, where has Paizo miserably failed in the past? I am sure the staff might have ideas but as for me, I am pretty satisifed by the level of quality and the sensitivity towards the hobby that my money is being used for.
and of course, the ever-present "Katanas MUST be the uber-weapon of any game" are cropping up.Katana
Cost: 1200 gp
Damage (S): 2d10
Damage (M): 4d8
Critical: 12-20 / ×8
Range: -
Weight: 5 lbs.
Type: S and P
Special: MonkAll katanas are considered masterwork weapons. Any "katana" that is made and does not meet masterwork requirements is instead treated as one of those dull pointless clubs that barbarians from the West have the temerity to call swords. Katanas can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat. A katana can cut through any substance, no matter how hard or thick it is. This includes magical effects. A critical hit from a katana has a 97% chance of outright killing the victim, regardless of hit points. If this occurs, the victim is cut so badly that he can never be resurrected by any means...even direct divine intervention. Katana's automatically nullify any divine or magical defenses. This includes those of all deities. Katanas ignore armor, and any bonuses towards the target's AC. Anyone holding a katana automatically gains 10 levels in the class of their choosing. If the class of their choosing is Monk, they instead gain 25 levels, and automatically become greater gods.
You DO realize that somewhere out there, someone's grabbed this and run to their GM saying "See! I told you that you were gimping the katana!" :)
Nicely done.
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I love everything Paizo does, so therefore, I am of no use in this thread. Other than that, I will say, where has Paizo miserably failed in the past? I am sure the staff might have ideas but as for me, I am pretty satisfied by the level of quality and the sensitivity towards the hobby that my money is being used for.
But Paizo do respond to feedback. And I have seen plenty of tweaks here and there in response to the fans' voice, and maybe that is part of what has made those Paizo products so awesome?
You DO realize that somewhere out there, someone's grabbed this and run to their GM saying "See! I told you that you were gimping the katana!" :)
Nicely done.
I had the very same thoughts. Someone somewhere is going "AT last someone got it right!"
With some of the stuff I have heard folks say like"being able to cut though plat mail like butter, and chop though three men at once, or cut down trees with one blow" yeah your right. Some folks have serous delusions when it comes to that weapon.
The problem with the way some people seem to worship the katana is that, by itself, it is just a bastard-type sword with a bit of a curve to the blade. In the hands of an average person it will do not do anything more special than any other sword. It is when it is wielded by a master of the katana that all these special things seems to be possible. So really, it is the character class that should have all the nifty abilities available to learn and use when equipped with a katana and not the sword itself having all these special abilities built-in.
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The problem with the way some people seem to worship the katana is that, by itself, it is just a bastard-type sword with a bit of a curve to the blade. In the hands of an average person it will do not do anything more special than any other sword. It is when it is wielded by a master of the katana that all these special things seems to be possible. So really, it is the character class that should have all the nifty abilities available to learn and use when equipped with a katana and not the sword itself having all these special abilities built-in.
The thing is, it's no more impressive in the hands of a katana master than a bastard sword is in the hands of a bastard sword master, or than a greatsword is in the hands of a greatsword master, etc.
Voicing positive vibes here. Cant wait for this book.
The thing is, it's no more impressive in the hands of a katana master than a bastard sword is in the hands of a bastard sword master, or than a greatsword is in the hands of a greatsword master, etc.
QFT right there.
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But Paizo do respond to feedback. And I have seen plenty of tweaks here and there in response to the fans' voice, and maybe that is part of what has made those Paizo products so awesome?
I cannot argue with that logic. It is a big part of their success...one that I reap every time I buy their products. It is because of this community that they aren't throwing darts in the dark. Checks and balances keep them on the straight and narrow.
if the empire of Minkai has samurai and ninja, then it should have shrine maidens too. possibly styled along the lines of Hakurei Reimu?
we need a design it yourself yokai template too. something modular and similar to an animated object's construction points with cherry pickable abilities that are assigned proportionate point costs. possibly inspired by Touhou?
if the empire of Minkai has samurai and ninja, then it should have shrine maidens too. possibly styled along the lines of Hakurei Reimu?
we need a design it yourself yokai template too. something modular and similar to an animated object's construction points with cherry pickable abilities that are assigned proportionate point costs. possibly inspired by Touhou?
Keep your touhous out of Pathfinder :|
...Says the guy with the name "Cirno"
if the empire of Minkai has samurai and ninja, then it should have shrine maidens too. possibly styled along the lines of Hakurei Reimu?
we need a design it yourself yokai template too. something modular and similar to an animated object's construction points with cherry pickable abilities that are assigned proportionate point costs. possibly inspired by Touhou?
Keep your touhous out of Pathfinder :|
...Says the guy with the name "Cirno"
but Cirno-Sama, i think you are such a cute little fairy. freezing frogs for entertainment is just adorable. so are your delusions of being "The Strongest", your playful silly nature, the fact you insist on being called a professor, and all that fun you had with Rumia-Chan.
if Tian-Xia has to have samurai and ninja, then it should have Shrine Maidens too. and i like the idea of a modular Yokai template. i said inspired by Touhou, not stolen from Touhou. i spent the last 3 days reading Touhou fanfiction.
i have a feast at the Hakurei shrine to attend, will you and Rumia-Chan be my guests Cirno-Sama? each of us gods is allowed to bring a small entourage of guests to the outing. i heard it's going to be a big feast. lots of sake too.
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if there has to be a samurai and ninja class, then there has to be a shrine maiden one too.
Sigh, I fear paizo will give into "Ninja" fanatics and make those two class when at best they are archetypes. From what I have read the shield maiden is already in core. They are priests and witches or sorcerers and such. What they are depends on who ya ask and are not well defined.
A Samurai is a fighter and a Ninja is a rogue and maybe they might have some monk levels. There is zero need or reason to make them base class or sub classes when what they are is already in the book.
I want a gninja.
I want a gninja.
Make a Gnome rogue, make his weapons look Asian and give him an Asian name. Done.
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if there has to be a samurai and ninja class, then there has to be a shrine maiden one too.
Sigh, I fear paizo will give into "Ninja" fanatics and make those two class when at best they are archetypes. From what I have read the shield maiden is already in core. They are priests and witches or sorcerers and such. What they are depends on who ya ask and are not well defined.
A Samurai is a fighter and a Ninja is a rogue and maybe they might have some monk levels. There is zero need or reason to make them base class or sub classes when what they are is already in the book.
I expect the ninja and samurai to be archetypes, maybe sub classes, but I am pretty sure they won't be base classes.
I expect the ninja and samurai to be archetypes, maybe sub classes, but I am pretty sure they won't be base classes.
Honestly subclass is to much for me. They are just different names for classes we have now. It's bad enough 3.x gave new stats to simple weapons just because Asian cultures used exotic names for them.
At best Ninja is an archetype of rogue{I would just say rogue with some new talents} and Samurai is a cavalier archetype {I say cavalier over fighter as it both fits historically and with what people expect with challenges and all.}
Zero reason to make them anything more other the to feed the {Its Asian so better} delusion people seem to have now days.
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if there has to be a samurai and ninja class, then there has to be a shrine maiden one too.
Sigh, I fear paizo will give into "Ninja" fanatics and make those two class when at best they are archetypes. From what I have read the shield maiden is already in core. They are priests and witches or sorcerers and such. What they are depends on who ya ask and are not well defined.
A Samurai is a fighter and a Ninja is a rogue and maybe they might have some monk levels. There is zero need or reason to make them base class or sub classes when what they are is already in the book.
shrine maiden, not shield maiden
But Gnorm isn't a Asian gname.I want a gninja.Make a Gnome rogue, make his weapons look Asian and give him an Asian name. Done.
call it an Asian Gnome then, it's still just a Gnome. Do Asian Humans get all new stats? They should as we all know they are super awesome and way more powerful then any other type of human. They have to be, they are Asian.
shrine maiden, not shield maiden
Honestly same difference. Shield maidens do not get a whole new class. And they are more well defined.
The main problem with ninja being a different name for rogue is that a rogue doesn't have to ability to disappear, shapeshifting, duplicate themselves, etc. If a wizard can cast spells then a ninja should be able to do the fantastic feats attributed to them.
if the empire of Minkai has samurai and ninja, then it should have shrine maidens too. possibly styled along the lines of Hakurei Reimu?
we need a design it yourself yokai template too. something modular and similar to an animated object's construction points with cherry pickable abilities that are assigned proportionate point costs. possibly inspired by Touhou?
Keep your touhous out of Pathfinder :|
...Says the guy with the name "Cirno"
but Cirno-Sama, i think you are such a cute little fairy. freezing frogs for entertainment is just adorable. so are your delusions of being "The Strongest", your playful silly nature, the fact you insist on being called a professor, and all that fun you had with Rumia-Chan.
if Tian-Xia has to have samurai and ninja, then it should have Shrine Maidens too. and i like the idea of a modular Yokai template. i said inspired by Touhou, not stolen from Touhou. i spent the last 3 days reading Touhou fanfiction.
i have a feast at the Hakurei shrine to attend, will you and Rumia-Chan be my guests Cirno-Sama? each of us gods is allowed to bring a small entourage of guests to the outing. i heard it's going to be a big feast. lots of sake too.
The main problem with ninja being a different name for rogue is that a rogue doesn't have to ability to disappear, shapeshifting, duplicate themselves, etc. If a wizard can cast spells then a ninja should be able to do the fantastic feats attributed to them.
Ninja's could not do any of that stuff either. Well other then disappear/reappear which it totally non magical. Which I could totally use on some uneducated farmers who never travel more then 5 miles from home in a lifetime. Then make em think I used my "mystic arts to vanish"
What your saying is at best rogue talents. Ninja's are rogues. They also often used disguise and acted as spy's and infiltrators.
Archetype at very best. Ninja is just Asian for "sneaky rogue who sometimes acts as an assassin} nothing more.
Yeah in real life, just like wizards and the like couldn't actually cast spells.
Your point? If ya want a Ninja that is a Ninja. Not some mystic spellcaster who kills people by stealth. Ya can always multiclass for that.