Better HD (d8 -> d10)
Better BAB (3/4 -> full)
Martial Weapon Proficiencies
Heavy Armor ProficienciesAnd loses:
up to 3 levels of spellcasting
increased duration/power for some (but not all) domain powers
What am I missing? Losing three whole levels of spellcasting seems a steep cost for the increase in BAB.
What am I missing? Losing three whole levels of spellcasting seems a steep cost for the increase in BAB.
You missed this part:
A cleric... gains the following (on top of PrC powers):
Better HD (d8 -> d10)
Better BAB (3/4 -> full)
Martial Weapon Proficiencies
Heavy Armor Proficiencies
The PrC class abilities are considerable.
What am I missing? Losing three whole levels of spellcasting seems a steep cost for the increase in BAB.
You missed this part:
A cleric... gains the following (on top of PrC powers):
Better HD (d8 -> d10)
Better BAB (3/4 -> full)
Martial Weapon Proficiencies
Heavy Armor ProficienciesThe PrC class abilities are considerable.
Mhm, the proficiencies are nice, the HD increase is ok, but it costs three levels of spellcasting. Anything that costs caster levels must have a huge benefit. I don't think the benefits outweigh the loss of casting power.
Lemme put it this way: The optimization rule of thumb is to lose at most 1 level of spellcasting. A PrC that loses 3 isn't even on the radar.
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There was an old option to give up domains as a cleric for full BAB and weapon focus in their deities weapon (and eventually specialization). Most didn't take it.
Similarly, you have a class here which gives up full casting for being a little better fighter. This is considerable only for a combat-focused cleric, and even then you're slowing down gain to the "power buffs", which as stated is generally not preferable.
i'm borderline on this. It is a good sized loss in 3 casting levels but if you want your cleric to do something other than heal/buff its an option that has very big upside.
Mhm, the proficiencies are nice, the HD increase is ok, but it costs three levels of spellcasting. Anything that costs caster levels must have a huge benefit. I don't think the benefits outweigh the loss of casting power.
Your view that the PrC isn't worth the loss of 3 'casting levels may be valid, but the comparisons being made here are not. You don't give up 3 'casting levels to get a larger HD and some proficiencies. You give them up to gain those benefits plus --
-- the ability to convert a channeled energy use into an AC bonus of +1/HD of channeled energy, which lasts for 24 hours or until you're struck in combat;
-- having any heal/cure type spell you cast on yourself automatically Empowered (or later, Maximized) as per the metamagic feat;
-- the ability to reshape your channeled energy into a 30' cone or 120' line;
-- use of stigmata to gain extra d6 of channel energy damage along with being able to sicken foes, or affect them with doom, or bestow curse;
-- at-will stablization for yourself as a standard action;
etc.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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On the issue of the HV, I'll throw out a few things.
1. I tend to think that, in actual campaign play, a cleric who wants to go the "fighter/cleric" route, where they will be wanting heavy armor and martial weapons, is unlikely to just wait it out for 8 levels before adding that as a class feature. 1st level through 8th level you're making do with a breastplate and mace or longspear, and then finally, FINALLY, you get to 9th level and get to play the kind of character you want. I could be wrong about that, but it seems like a stretch.
It's possible, sure, and absolutely could be true if you are generating a 9th+ level character to join an existing campaign.
2. On BAB, I did query along with the submission whether they wanted it to be 3/4 or 1/1, because it seemed right on the borderline; is it more of a cleric or more of a paladin? ( Really, the same was true of the rage prophet and the battle herald.) In the end, they went 1/1, and mostly because the thought was if it went to 3/4 it would become too unattractive for paladins, and the PrC was intended to appeal to both pals and clrs.
3. On the class abilities, most are tied to offensive channeling, which makes them very limited in scope unless you're in the right kind of campaign (Age of Worms for undead, Savage Tide for evil outsiders, etc.).
4. Likewise, most of your class abilities require your stigmata to be turned on; i.e., for you to be taking continuous damage in order to use. No big deal in a short fight, but can certainly add up in a long one.
5. On the cleric domain power progression, I wouldn't discount that too quickly. Yes, there is a quantum step of having/not-having your mid-level domain power, but the level increases afterward are pretty nice.
A presumptive Clr8/HV4 of, say, Torag with the Earth and Good domain gets resist acid 10 and can use Holy Lance 1/day for 4 rounds, gets a point of BAB, loses a caster level.
A Clr12 gets resist acid 20, Holy Lance 2/day for 6 rounds each, loses the BAB, gets the caster level.
Even trade? YMMV, but there's some give and get to it.
Long story short: I think the class is a fair balance where it is, but if you still think the class is too much, switching the caster advancement to 1/2 levels (even levels) is a rational compromise, and given the flavor of the class would be more appropriate than a BAB reduction.
What am I missing? Losing three whole levels of spellcasting seems a steep cost for the increase in BAB.
You missed this part:
A cleric... gains the following (on top of PrC powers):
Better HD (d8 -> d10)
Better BAB (3/4 -> full)
Martial Weapon Proficiencies
Heavy Armor ProficienciesThe PrC class abilities are considerable.
Asserting BAB is better than spellcasting levels is laughable, at best. Especially when you already have 3/4 progression.
Which also makes Martial Weapon Proficiency vs spellcasting levels rather laughable.So you are really down to the question: Is a better hit die and returned heavy armor proficiency worth 3 levels of divine spellcasting?
Though I presume that is if you take all levels of the class. If the armor and weapon proficiency are awarded by the class itself - instead of class abilities - then a single level dip is far more palatable.
(Which is why few PrCs in 3.5 awarded weapon or armor proficiency)
Well, a character that can have up to 9th level spells with a nice BAB and HD sounds like overpowered at first, but I agree that looking at it closely it looks more balanced.
If the Eldritch Knigth is ok (talk about getting a huge increase in BAB and HD by giving up a single caster level and taking a fighter class level) the Holy Vindicator has to be ok, too.
Playtesting will show if the class is broken, I just hope players don't stop multiclassing (cleric + a bit of fighter) because the PrC is better.
Asserting BAB is better than spellcasting levels is laughable, at best. Especially when you already have 3/4 progression.
Which also makes Martial Weapon Proficiency vs spellcasting levels rather laughable.So you are really down to the question: Is a better hit die and returned heavy armor proficiency worth 3 levels of divine spellcasting?
Though I presume that is if you take all levels of the class. If the armor and weapon proficiency are awarded by the class itself - instead of class abilities - then a single level dip is far more palatable.
(Which is why few PrCs in 3.5 awarded weapon or armor proficiency)
Don't forget the full stacking of channel energy for all levels of HV (which is the class theme, after all). A 4 level dip is quite attractive for RAW.
I've already declared what changes I am making for my games (if any of my players are reading).
Stacking for Channel Energy or anything else is irrelevant to my analysis.
Losing 3 casting levels to be better at fighting is ridiculous unless the class also has a ton of awesomecore abilities grouped in.
I have to say making changes is silly. None of these benefits is anywhere near to three caster levels, it is not even close. Gm do have absolute power, as a player,however i would not play in a game where a gm is going to penalize me, after I have already given up 3 casters levels for what amounts to nothing for than minor benefits in comparision, not only is it grossly unfair, it demonstrates that the GM lacks a basic fundemental grasp of how the game works. In the game as it is currently designed there is never a situation where those gained benefits outwieght three caster levels. period.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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One thing I must say to the OP's point vs. the comparisons of losing 3 caster levels, is that his real stated focus is *NOT* on taking the class for all 10 levels.
Instead, he's more focused on taking FOUR levels of the class, giving up just ONE caster level, and whether the benefits that are gained are too good.
So, he's not looking at an endgame of Clr10/HV10 (caster level 17), but Clr16/HV4 (CL 19).
P.S. As to "why include the proficiencies at all" if I would assume most clerics would already have taken care of it?
Because some will and some won't, and for a player willing or able to stick it out, it's a small fringe benefit. For those that don't, it's a nevermind/don't matta.
One thing I must say to the OP's point vs. the comparisons of losing 3 caster levels, is that his real stated focus is *NOT* on taking the class for all 10 levels.
Instead, he's more focused on taking FOUR levels of the class, giving up just ONE caster level, and whether the benefits that are gained are too good.
So, he's not looking at an endgame of Clr10/HV10 (caster level 17), but Clr16/HV4 (CL 19).
Even then, the source of this character's power will be the CL19, not the additional HP/BAB/Proficiencies...
One thing I must say to the OP's point vs. the comparisons of losing 3 caster levels, is that his real stated focus is *NOT* on taking the class for all 10 levels.
Instead, he's more focused on taking FOUR levels of the class, giving up just ONE caster level, and whether the benefits that are gained are too good.
I agree. What is gained is much better than what is lost at that point.
What am I missing? Losing three whole levels of spellcasting seems a steep cost for the increase in BAB.
You missed this part:
A cleric... gains the following (on top of PrC powers):
Better HD (d8 -> d10)
Better BAB (3/4 -> full)
Martial Weapon Proficiencies
Heavy Armor ProficienciesThe PrC class abilities are considerable.
Asserting BAB is better than spellcasting levels is laughable, at best. Especially when you already have 3/4 progression.
Which also makes Martial Weapon Proficiency vs spellcasting levels rather laughable.So you are really down to the question: Is a better hit die and returned heavy armor proficiency worth 3 levels of divine spellcasting?
Though I presume that is if you take all levels of the class. If the armor and weapon proficiency are awarded by the class itself - instead of class abilities - then a single level dip is far more palatable.
(Which is why few PrCs in 3.5 awarded weapon or armor proficiency)
Slight Error here. Actually, MOST PrC's in 3.5 gave away armor and weapon proficiencies.
==Aelryinth
I still disagree that +1 BAB, +4 hit points on average, the ability to burn very limited CPE uses for a lasts-until-struck AC bonus, a +2 bonus to one set of abilities at the cost of taking uncurable ongoing damage and thus needing to make a concentration check for every spell being cast, auto-Empowered cure spells for the self only, and the ability to auto-cast doom on a critical hit are worth a caster level, -4 levels of favored class benefits, and -4 levels of domain powers. Although admittedly using stigmata for save bonuses is nice; it's by far the most powerful of the choices.
All of the gained abilities are incredibly minor, and the stigmata thing can actually backfire on you.
Since folks are discussing: How would you compare the value/worth of the PrC as a paladin platform rather than for a cleric?
It's actually probably even worse for Paladins than it is for Clerics, because Paladins lose more class features. Clerics only lose spellcasting and domains; Paladins lose spellcasting (although it's not hardly as big a deal for them as for Clerics), divine bond, mercies, lay on hands, immunities, auras, smites, etc etc etc. Not even remotely close to worth it.
EDIT: To be clear, I'm not blaming the author for that (be it you or someone else; I can't recall if you claimed this one). It's just a consequence of Paizo's stance on Prestige Classes.
The one thing I don't like with this feat is the name. Usually, "holy" indicates that it's good - like a holy weapon dealing extra damage against evil creatures.
I still disagree that +1 BAB, +4 hit points on average, the ability to burn very limited CPE uses for a lasts-until-struck AC bonus, a +2 bonus to one set of abilities at the cost of taking uncurable ongoing damage and thus needing to make a concentration check for every spell being cast, auto-Empowered cure spells for the self only, and the ability to auto-cast doom on a critical hit are worth a caster level, -4 levels of favored class benefits, and -4 levels of domain powers. Although admittedly using stigmata for save bonuses is nice; it's by far the most powerful of the choices.
All of the gained abilities are incredibly minor, and the stigmata thing can actually backfire on you.
+1
And I agree with zurai. Even a 4-level dip seems not worth it in most cases, for the standard cleric. It doesn't seem as a game-breakingly bad choice either, and for a more melee cleric, it might be a good choice. I think it's right on spot.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Since folks are discussing: How would you compare the value/worth of the PrC as a paladin platform rather than for a cleric?It's actually probably even worse for Paladins than it is for Clerics, because Paladins lose more class features. Clerics only lose spellcasting and domains; Paladins lose spellcasting (although it's not hardly as big a deal for them as for Clerics), divine bond, mercies, lay on hands, immunities, auras, smites, etc etc etc. Not even remotely close to worth it.
EDIT: To be clear, I'm not blaming the author for that (be it you or someone else; I can't recall if you claimed this one). It's just a consequence of Paizo's stance on Prestige Classes.
I did write it and do claim it and think that it came out just about right. I think it's a little better for clerics than paladins, but okay for both. Paladins keep their full BAB and still have decent casting (a secondary feature for them anyway). Clerics get better BAB/hp but suffer more from the caster hit.
Whether you think the class abilities are any great shakes vs. what you are giving up is another matter, and paladins lose more in that department because they have more line-item class abilities than clerics, esp. at higher levels.
Paizo's stance on PrC's is that they aren't supposed to be clearly BETTER than classes they start with (nor, one would hope, horrifically awful), but more to the point PrC's should be interesting in some way. Perhaps they focus on a particular class feature and take that in some different directions (as the HV does with channel energy, or the horizon walker does with terrain mastery). Whether those class features NEED a PrC focusing on them is the ultimate YMMV, but viva la difference.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I still disagree that +1 BAB, +4 hit points on average, the ability to burn very limited CPE uses for a lasts-until-struck AC bonus, a +2 bonus to one set of abilities at the cost of taking uncurable ongoing damage and thus needing to make a concentration check for every spell being cast, auto-Empowered cure spells for the self only, and the ability to auto-cast doom on a critical hit are worth a caster level, -4 levels of favored class benefits, and -4 levels of domain powers. Although admittedly using stigmata for save bonuses is nice; it's by far the most powerful of the choices.
All of the gained abilities are incredibly minor, and the stigmata thing can actually backfire on you.
A couple of notes:
1. Because the most continuous damage you'll be taking is 5 points per round (at 10th level, meaning you're going to be around a 12th (pal) to 15th level (clr) level caster, the concentration check is going to be 12+spell level, so a max of 19-20. With a likely WIS of 22+ at that level, your concentration check vs. stigmata is near-automatic (unless you went the "paladin with WIS dump stat" route).
Also, you can always turn it off to cast (move action at 6, swift at 10) then turn it back on again to fight.
2. The bleed damage isn't uncurable. You can cure the hp damage any way you like. It just doesn't end when you get magical healing, like normal bleed damage does.
3. The "AC bonus until you get hit" bonus sounds weenie at first, but if you get the AC bonus high enough you may not GET hit for a while. Sure, its effect will end sooner or later, but in between it can be the margin that turns a lot of hits into misses, a la mirror image.
Also, it's a nice benefit for surprise rounds and sneak attacks since you can turn it on and it lasts 24 hours, so it helps you not die when someone gets the drop on you. Also, it's a significant boost to touch AC, of which there aren't that many easily available.
4. Though I didn't end up phrasing it as clearly as I should have, the Divine Wrath (and Retribution later on) abilities are also abilities you can trigger against OTHERS when they crit you. Sort of a retributive divine middle finger. "From Hell's heart I stab at thee... "
2. The bleed damage isn't uncurable. You can cure the hp damage any way you like. It just doesn't end when you get magical healing, like normal bleed damage does.
Yeah, that's what I meant. It doesn't go away until you specifically turn it off (which means if you get knocked unconscious while your stigmata are active, you're in real trouble).
A couple of notes:
1. Because the most continuous damage you'll be taking is 5 points per round (at 10th level, meaning you're going to be around a 12th (pal) to 15th level (clr) level caster, the concentration check is going to be 12+spell level, so a max of 19-20. With a likely WIS of 22+ at that level, your concentration check vs. stigmata is near-automatic (unless you went the "paladin with WIS dump stat" route).
Also, you can always turn it off to cast (move action at 6, swift at 10) then turn it back on again to fight.
3. The "AC bonus until you get hit" bonus sounds weenie at first, but if you get the AC bonus high enough you may not GET hit for a while. Sure, its effect will end sooner or later, but in between it can be the margin that turns a lot of hits into misses, a la mirror image.
And now it seems I must remind you that we're talking about a 4 level dip :) With only 4 levels, you can't really switch your stigmata off and on, the DC to cast spells carries a reasonable chance of failure for the higher level spells at the time of taking your 4th level, and the opportunity cost for the AC bonus is really high. Most Clerics won't have more than 4-5 channels per day, and Paladins are even worse off since Holy Vindicator doesn't stack with Lay on Hands.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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2. The bleed damage isn't uncurable. You can cure the hp damage any way you like. It just doesn't end when you get magical healing, like normal bleed damage does.Yeah, that's what I meant. It doesn't go away until you specifically turn it off (which means if you get knocked unconscious while your stigmata are active, you're in real trouble).
Ooh, good point. Oops... :)
Well, that's the price you pay for being a fanatic vindicator willing to bleed for the cause!
And now it seems I must remind you that we're talking about a 4 level dip :) With only 4 levels, you can't really switch your stigmata off and on, the DC to cast spells carries a reasonable chance of failure for the higher level spells at the time of taking your 4th level, and the opportunity cost for the AC bonus is really high. Most Clerics won't have more than 4-5 channels per day, and Paladins are even worse off since Holy Vindicator doesn't stack with Lay on Hands.A couple of notes:
1. Because the most continuous damage you'll be taking is 5 points per round (at 10th level, meaning you're going to be around a 12th (pal) to 15th level (clr) level caster, the concentration check is going to be 12+spell level, so a max of 19-20. With a likely WIS of 22+ at that level, your concentration check vs. stigmata is near-automatic (unless you went the "paladin with WIS dump stat" route).
Also, you can always turn it off to cast (move action at 6, swift at 10) then turn it back on again to fight.
3. The "AC bonus until you get hit" bonus sounds weenie at first, but if you get the AC bonus high enough you may not GET hit for a while. Sure, its effect will end sooner or later, but in between it can be the margin that turns a lot of hits into misses, a la mirror image.
The 4-level dip makes it easier, because you're only taking 2 points of bleed per round, so it's only DC 11+spell level, and your caster level will be higher since you're only taking 1 CL hit, so our Clr8/HV4 is CL 11 with probably 20 WIS (assuming you're not a hardcore WIS buffer), so you have +16 conc checks. DC for your highest-level spells is going to be 17 (11+6th level) = auto-success!
Switch on and off, yes. Spending channels for AC is a cost, but I would think an implicit assumption of taking a class focused on channeling is that you are going to create a character who is good at channeling. To wit, you're going to have a good CHA score and probably will want at least one Extra Channel feat.
I mean, most of the PrC's abilities are based around the channel energy feature. If you're not going to play to that strength, then taking the PrC is already a bad idea on the face of it. That'd be like taking a PrC that made your fire spells better... and then not learning any (or many) fire spells.
I had a PF Beta character, Thurl Ravenscroft, who was a dwarf fighter/cleric of Shelyn (long story). On one hand, seems like a good match for the PrC, right? But, he had a crap CHA score, so he could only channel like twice a day (though I could use eagle's splendor to temporarily boost CHA and get 2 extra uses per day; it was a bit cheesy, but the DM allowed it so I went with it). Taking this class would have been a spectacularly bad idea, because he would get little mileage out of it.
As for the paladin not stacking issue, it doesn't need to stack with LOH, as it already stacks with channel positive energy, which the pally gets at 4th. True, they don't get more uses of LOH (1/2 pal lvl + CHA), but clerics don't get more uses of channel energy either; it's a flat 3 + CHA. Extra Channel works the same for both, but CHA boosters help the cleric more because they get channel uses 1:1 instead of 1:2 for paladins.
I did toy with the idea of giving the HV more uses of channel energy per day, as well as stacking levels for effect of CE, but it started to feel like too much.
If you're looking for an unofficial opinion, I don't think it would be entirely unreasonable to do one of the following:
1. Give an HV one extra channel energy use per day at every even level; or,
2. Apply an HV bonus feat at the non-casting levels, which must be used to select a channeling feat (Improved, Alignment, Extra, whatever).
I would suggest this as being a wise course especially if you chose to restrict the HV's spellcasting to 1/2 levels as suggested above.
Paizo's stance on PrC's is that they aren't supposed to be clearly BETTER than classes they start with (nor, one would hope, horrifically awful), but more to the point PrC's should be interesting in some way. Perhaps they focus on a particular class feature and take that in some different directions (as the HV does with channel energy, or the horizon walker does with terrain mastery). Whether those class features NEED a PrC focusing on them is the ultimate YMMV, but viva la difference.
Thanks god, I hope Paizo keeps up things going in that direction. Options and cool stuff, instead of making the core classes obsolete a la WotC style.
There are still character concepts difficult to make with current rules, so I prefer new content rather than useless powerplaying stuff.I mean, GFJ :)
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As a longtime player of Clerics, I love this PrC, by the way. I'm much more of a "flavor" player than an optimizer, though, so there's that.
Bottom line is, I've played enough Clerics in my life that essentially focused on backline buffing/casting. I'm really looking forward to playing one that gets in and mixes it up with the big boys. I think the stigmata thing is great, too.
To me, this is a totally innovative and really cool option, so kudos to you, Mr. Nelson. Definitely my favorite of the APG PrC's.
My opinion on the PrC is that it seems to make a decent 'paladin' for deities that currently can't have paladins. Just a thought as to the way I saw it, as I instantly thought of a Fighter/Cleric going into it.
Query: Is this PrC designed for Paladins OR Clerics? Or for Paladin/Clerics? Seems to me if the latter, Channel Energy uses are NOT going to be a problem. And...would it dual advance paladin and cleric casting?
Agreed with above. if You're going into a PrC that is powered by channeling, you're going to have lots of channeling and a good Cha to power it.
Also, that example with Eagle's Splendor does give you two more attempts...for as long as it lasts. Then, you go back down to normal numbers, and having used 2 uses, you're at 0.
===Aelryinth
As a longtime player of Clerics, I love this PrC, by the way. I'm much more of a "flavor" player than an optimizer, though, so there's that.
Bottom line is, I've played enough Clerics in my life that essentially focused on backline buffing/casting. I'm really looking forward to playing one that gets in and mixes it up with the big boys. I think the stigmata thing is great, too.
To me, this is a totally innovative and really cool option, so kudos to you, Mr. Nelson. Definitely my favorite of the APG PrC's.
+1 I've got two clerics in games right now. This flavor totally fits my cleric of Sarenrae, but does nothing for my cleric of Nethys. Really good job on the PrC, Jason, IMO.
And...would it dual advance paladin and cleric casting?
No, it wouldn't.
Also, that example with Eagle's Splendor does give you two more attempts...for as long as it lasts. Then, you go back down to normal numbers, and having used 2 uses, you're at 0.
===Aelryinth
I'm fairly certain Eagle's splendor doesn't give more channels as I think effects/day abilities aren't effected by temporary bonuses to abilities. That's why a headband of alluring charisma states that after 24 hours, it becomes a permanent bonus.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Query: Is this PrC designed for Paladins OR Clerics? Or for Paladin/Clerics? Seems to me if the latter, Channel Energy uses are NOT going to be a problem. And...would it dual advance paladin and cleric casting?
It works with any of the above. Honestly, a fighter/cleric works fine too, and a ranger/cleric with favored enemy undead or [alignment] or [element] outsiders would not be a bad choice either.
Caster level, as it always works with PrCs, is "choose one class to advance."
If you mean channel energy uses, it stacks with them both independently, as they do not stack with each other unless your GM house rules otherwise.
So, let's say you're a Pal4/Clr6/HV5.
That means your channel energy as a paladin is going to take up 2 LOH uses and have the effect of a 9th level cleric (5d6, save DC 14 + CHA bonus).
Your channel energy as a cleric will use up 1 of your CE uses and will also have the effect of an 11th level cleric (6d6 save DC 15 + CHA bonus).
Agreed with above. if You're going into a PrC that is powered by channeling, you're going to have lots of channeling and a good Cha to power it.
Also, that example with Eagle's Splendor does give you two more attempts...for as long as it lasts. Then, you go back down to normal numbers, and having used 2 uses, you're at 0.
===Aelryinth
Of course. That's why you make sure and use them right away... :)
Or, more to the point, use your ACTUAL CE uses, then use ES to boost CHA up to where you get 2 extra. The healing doesn't go away when the ES does, after all!
It may have been a rules fudge in my favor, but I was happy to take it if the DM was gonna give it out. I'd have to look again, but I think the above poster is right that you're not supposed to get extra daily uses for temporary stat boosts. Ah well, everyone deserves a slice of cheese once in a while.
One thing I must say to the OP's point vs. the comparisons of losing 3 caster levels, is that his real stated focus is *NOT* on taking the class for all 10 levels.
Instead, he's more focused on taking FOUR levels of the class, giving up just ONE caster level, and whether the benefits that are gained are too good.
So, he's not looking at an endgame of Clr10/HV10 (caster level 17), but Clr16/HV4 (CL 19).
P.S. As to "why include the proficiencies at all" if I would assume most clerics would already have taken care of it?
Because some will and some won't, and for a player willing or able to stick it out, it's a small fringe benefit. For those that don't, it's a nevermind/don't matta.
You know I couldn't disagree with the OP more on this, and I just wanted you to know that I think its probably the coolest PRC in the book. I love it, and I don't see it as overpowered in the slightest. If you're dipping into it for a build then you're optimizing anyway, right?
By NO means is this a vital dip for a battle cleric (still better to dip one barb/one alch for +8 str, +4 con, Extra will save, hp, and nat armor).
Frankly I think it's best for a paladin. We have someone in my game that took one look at this prc and just about went bonkers... he'll be playing it all the way up.
Normally I see most PRC's and get more then a little bored by them... decidedly NOT the case with the APG. They're all great.
If someone wants to be a more "battle cleric" style character and doesn't mind losing a few caster levels, this PrC is great for them.
Overpowered? Naw, not in the least.
I really like this PRC
God forbid there are a few Pathfinder Prestige Classes worth taking instead of core classes, cause most of the time the Core Classes outweigh most if not all the PRCs
And for an idea it cool power its not better then the cleric
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It loses 3 caster levels and you think it too powerful? I'd say it might be weak...that said I haven't read it as though I have been charged, by APG has not shipped
I've been examining the APG. Very pleased with most of the content...except the Holy Vindicator.
It is too good. I feel it violates the principle that prestige classes should not be incredibly better than the base classes.
The mechanics of this principle can be implemented in the following ways:
1. The requirements of the PrC require tradeoffs
example: Arcane trickster requires 3 levels of rogue and 3 levels (minimum) of some arcane class
2. The class progression involves tradeoffs from the base class(es) used to qualify for it
Continuing example: Arcane trickster forgoes the capstone abilities of the arcane class and the additional rogue talents (including improved evasion)
I interpret the holy vinidcator as being designed for a paladin, but really being best taken by a cleric. There is little reason to continue in cleric past 8th level when a holy vindicator is available.
Comparison:
A paladin gives up:
additional Lay on Hands
Mercies
Divine Bond
Smite Evil
Aura powers
Holy ChampionThey gain no new proficiencies, BAB or HD and lose 3 spellcasting levels (from a weak progression).
A cleric who waits to level 9 to start holy vindicator (so the 8th level domain power kicks in) gains the following (on top of PrC powers):
Better HD (d8 -> d10)
Better BAB (3/4 -> full)
Martial Weapon Proficiencies
Heavy Armor ProficienciesAnd loses:
up to 3 levels of spellcasting
increased duration/power for some (but not all) domain powers/Comparison
Channel Energy continues to stack with this PrC.
4 levels of Holy Vindicator means only a -1 caster level to spellcasting.
What cleric wouldn't dip into this PrC for the proficiencies and the HD/BAB (at least for 4 levels)?
Not having a cleric capstone makes divine spellcasting PrCs very difficult to design, because anything with decent caster progression is very tempting. I know this was dropped for a reason from the Beta...
What am I missing? Losing three whole levels of spellcasting seems a steep cost for the increase in BAB.
You missed this part:
A cleric... gains the following (on top of PrC powers):
Better HD (d8 -> d10)
Better BAB (3/4 -> full)
Martial Weapon Proficiencies
Heavy Armor ProficienciesThe PrC class abilities are considerable.
Not for giving up 3 levels of spell casting and some domian powers. Two of the 4 you listed can be fixed with a feat....not that big of a deal. The Holy Vindicator was well written and is just fine as is.
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Oracle of Life which already has plenty of martyr like abilities could definitely use the empowered self healing (since they didn't get the cleric healing domain power as a revelation option -.-) and since they are Cha based, they are going to be real good with the channel energy. Of course since they have slowed casting abilties the -1 to caster level does kinda hurt badly. Anyway I liked the class.
I agree. What is gained is much better than what is lost at that point.One thing I must say to the OP's point vs. the comparisons of losing 3 caster levels, is that his real stated focus is *NOT* on taking the class for all 10 levels.
Instead, he's more focused on taking FOUR levels of the class, giving up just ONE caster level, and whether the benefits that are gained are too good.
I would not say "much better"; the powers you get from levels 1-4 are pretty tame (and dull), and you lose a level of spellcasting.