Oh look A Man in Black thread. I wonder what it was derailed into.
I am sadly disappointed. :(
Not that it needs to be, but since you've said this several times in the last few days I don't actually think it is. At some point all the RPG superstar people used to have a profile that was their real name. Your aMiB profile does not link to any others so maybe they changed that.
RPG Superstar contestants did not get a separate profile. For the contest, when a contestant posted under his default name, their nickname was replaced with their name that they gave to Paizo.
There's no need to condescend to me. I explicitly stated that I appreciate others' points of view. Personally I don't accept the premise that the ratio of posters that enjoy the vitriol (or "blunt honesty") of the Trollman-esque is equal to those of us who prefer civility and accept that one's opinion is not necessarily fact.Well that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man.
And I'd like to think my posting style is influenced more by /tg/ than Frank Trollman.
Say what you will about the tenets of Trollmanism, dude; at least it's NOT F@*%ING *chan! :) But--to my horror--I find myself in agreement with you about the cavalier, at least until I can see how it plays out at the table.
Zo
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The problem is that White Wolf collapsed and has been bought up by the guys who make EVE Online. So it's not a valid comparison anymore. :( Well, the WW guys brought it on themselves with their terribad nWoD.
Well, I disagree with you there; while it's true that WW likely doesn't have 22% of the market anymore, I still think that Pathfinder being ranked second on ICV2 does imply that in retail sales Paizo is surpassed by WoTC only. That may not mean that Paizo's bigger than WW in its heyday, but it does indicate that Paizo sells more than SJG and WW, and *may* sell even more than FFG's products combined (that is open to speculation without actual numbers). If I had to "guesstimate", I'd say Paizo has around 10-15% of the RPG market.
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What player has ever said, "Hey, I'd like to play a paladin, but it's too powerful and its flavor is too interesting. I wish it was more generic and weaker so that I could properly enjoy it!"I've certainly seen players (like myself) decline to play a paladin because the alignment/code wouldn't fit in very well with the party or the adventure. And the Order of the Cockatrice is good for a chuckle and arguably less "generic" than a paladin.
Having said that, I agree that it's easily the least interesting class in the APG. They could have easily turned it into a class variant (fighter, probably, but maybe bard), and I won't be playing one any time soon.
I was hoping after the playtest versions Paizo would make it more of a marshal/dragon disciple style fighting class with auras of buffing. PF bard (and all the various archtypes) isn't bad, but a true "leader of men" isn't available in PF. I think giving the cavalier full BAB and HP along with some auras marshal style would be perfectly fun and balanced. Or maybe add a bit of the 3.5 knight into it.
But as it is, it's boring both in flavor and mechanics.
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What player has ever said, "Hey, I'd like to play a paladin, but it's too powerful and its flavor is too interesting. I wish it was more generic and weaker so that I could properly enjoy it!"
Yeah, that sums up my feelings on the cavalier exactly. Some cute tricks but ultimately pointless in both fluff and crunch.
I actually like the race/class modifiers because I enjoy fiddly bonus stats, especially the gnome pyromaniac one has already helped my character get some utility - and by utility I mean burn things :P
Anyhow, keep doing this! You amuse me and I agree with most of what you say :P
The problem is that White Wolf collapsed and has been bought up by the guys who make EVE Online. So it's not a valid comparison anymore. :( Well, the WW guys brought it on themselves with their terribad nWoD.Well, I disagree with you there; while it's true that WW likely doesn't have 22% of the market anymore, I still think that Pathfinder being ranked second on ICV2 does imply that in retail sales Paizo is surpassed by WoTC only. That may not mean that Paizo's bigger than WW in its heyday, but it does indicate that Paizo sells more than SJG and WW, and *may* sell even more than FFG's products combined (that is open to speculation without actual numbers). If I had to "guesstimate", I'd say Paizo has around 10-15% of the RPG market.
In fact we are not disagreeing. I am only saying that WW is not very much of an indicator anymore how good another company is doing. I am not trying to deny that Paizo is number two in the market.
MiB's real name is Jared Goodwin, in case anyone couldn't find it from scanning old Superstar threads. Now that that point is taken care of, let us continue ...
Yeah, the Sense Motive bonus, Discern Lies as an Immediate action SLA and on the spell list as a 4th level spell (gained at 10th level) seems overkill and redundant. I can see why it needed to be on the spell list, but there are all kinds of metagame issues. Or at least one: the party cannot be lied to after 5th level without magical aid. This can be a plot breaker.
Zo
[EDIT] I think the Slayer and True Judgement problems will be fixed "erratically".
The problem with having an opinion is that if it differs from somebody else's it isn't "They just see things differently." it is unfortunately "He sees things differently so he thinks I am wrong, and I'm NOT!"
I agree with some of things he's saying. I just purchased the PDF and in all honesty, would place it at about mediocre. I feel that most of these options could've been done with a little creativity. It seems that this book is mostly for those who HAVE to have something official, and fear altering things on their own.
The New Classes I like as guidelines for building my own. They offered answers to some questions I had about game balance.
If you like a lot of options and don't like straying from what is official, this is a great book. If you like to alter things to your own design, I would suggest saving $30 and getting the PDF. If you have already come up with altered races and classes already, keep what you have and most of this book is probably on par with what you have already.
Man in Black:
Jason Bulmahn's posted regarding corrections/updates to a couple of the Inquisitor class features on the first page of this thread: *Link*
More specifically, this post.
((
I have found that it gets a little weird in product discussion threads that go one past a page though.
... then APG will be the last book I buy.That would at least save the rest of us from your diatribes. Thus, I'm in favor of this option.
+1000
+1000... then APG will be the last book I buy.That would at least save the rest of us from your diatribes. Thus, I'm in favor of this option.
+1000. I mean to the whining, because that's all you are doing.
The problem with having an opinion is that if it differs from somebody else's it isn't "They just see things differently." it is unfortunately "He sees things differently so he thinks I am wrong, and I'm NOT!"
I agree with some of things he's saying. I just purchased the PDF and in all honesty, would place it at about mediocre. I feel that most of these options could've been done with a little creativity. It seems that this book is mostly for those who HAVE to have something official, and fear altering things on their own.
The New Classes I like as guidelines for building my own. They offered answers to some questions I had about game balance.
If you like a lot of options and don't like straying from what is official, this is a great book. If you like to alter things to your own design, I would suggest saving $30 and getting the PDF. If you have already come up with altered races and classes already, keep what you have and most of this book is probably on par with what you have already.
I agree with this fellow. The APG is nice, but I don't think it's the super-godly 5 star rated item that the reviews suggest. The typos get in the way sometimes. The new classes actually feel a bit bland to me, crazy though that may sound. My biggest gripe is that for all the options, I feel pigeonholed even more than before into stereotypes. This is more from my interests in roleplaying than combat.
This is just my opinion, though, and this seems like a good place to place the dissenting opinion. And it's ONLY my opinion. Feel free to agree or disagree. No one has to be right, because there isn't a right. It's subjective.
Don't feed the trolls
Don't feed the trolls
*munch crunch slurp*
What?
Dear Mods,
You can go ahead and close this thread.
Thanks,
Everybody but MiB.
Oh look, the forum police are here to speak for everyone. :/
I prefer to refer myself as the Forum Inquisition for which no one expects.
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I'm not aware aMiB has a sense of humor, at least not in the manner which I understand it to exist.I don't know why everyone's getting so worked up.
The title thread clearly says GONZO and in the OP he included a DISclaimer. It's clearly a parody thread, and you're all terrible people with no sense of humor.
None that has shown on the boards thus far. We keep do our best to keep hope alive though.
Speak for yourselves. shall I spam other threads I don't like or is there a double standard in effect?
Always.
The Paizo forums are only welcoming, and friendly towards those that are deemed "acceptable." Otherwise it is a fairly hostile place.
And no, I am not referencing anything involving me. I make this statement based on watching how others are treated.
I don't know why these posts bother anybody. He's mixing legitimate criticism with hyperbole in an obvious attempt at humor. It's not like he's personally insulting anybody or derailing anybody else's thread.
As for the APG, my feeling is such: There are a lot of things I really hate in it. then I looked at it and said "you know, there's something in this book that every single player at my table would use." Whether it's a feat, class variant, or new class. I can't say that about any WOTC book beyond like two of the complete books. That makes APG a pretty big success as far as I'm concerned.
I don't know why these posts bother anybody. He's mixing legitimate criticism with hyperbole in an obvious attempt at humor. It's not like he's personally insulting anybody or derailing anybody else's thread.
I do not find his style of humour funny. His tone is belittling and dismissive, especially when people dont understand that he is trying to be funny.
The Paizo forums are only welcoming, and friendly towards those that are deemed "acceptable." Otherwise it is a fairly hostile place.
And no, I am not referencing anything involving me. I make this statement based on watching how others are treated.
I would like some evidence of this please, otherwise this is an unfounded accusation.
Please point out posts where people have be singled out and ostracised.
I know of two people that have been asked to take a "holiday" from posting and did not come back, that was due to some very inappropriate posts.
I find these boards far more welcoming and accepting than many of the other RPG forums that I have visited.
There are some very strong personalities, some cliques, the odd bit verbal biffo and no place is perfect but so far I have found Paizo to be the best.
Speak for yourselves. shall I spam other threads I don't like or is there a double standard in effect?Always.
The Paizo forums are only welcoming, and friendly towards those that are deemed "acceptable." Otherwise it is a fairly hostile place.
And no, I am not referencing anything involving me. I make this statement based on watching how others are treated.
+1
I don't know why these posts bother anybody. He's mixing legitimate criticism with hyperbole in an obvious attempt at humor. It's not like he's personally insulting anybody or derailing anybody else's thread.
As for the APG, my feeling is such: There are a lot of things I really hate in it. then I looked at it and said "you know, there's something in this book that every single player at my table would use." Whether it's a feat, class variant, or new class. I can't say that about any WOTC book beyond like two of the complete books. That makes APG a pretty big success as far as I'm concerned.
MiB is not known as the humorous type so people took it as snark and hyperbole. Now if you come to the table with no previous knowledge of him you may be able to get that is is not being rude.
The Paizo forums are only welcoming, and friendly towards those that are deemed "acceptable." Otherwise it is a fairly hostile place.
And no, I am not referencing anything involving me. I make this statement based on watching how others are treated.
+1.
There are about 4-5 individuals that practically live on the forums and have a tendency to savage anyone who they feel isn't up to their intellectual and/or Pathfinder rules proficiency level. They make a point of quickly becoming aggressive and offensive towards posters. It is why I am thankful for the "Ignore User" Greasemonkey script. My board reading is much more pleasant when I do not have to read posts by those individuals continually belittling others. It'd be nice if some of these users received some sort of warning, but it hasn't seemed to have happened yet.
Also, there is a very strong "fan-boy" factor on these boards and any negative comments will very quickly be attacked. Its fairly pointless to try to say anything negative about anything Paizo does so generally it comes down to "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all" which, of course, just feeds into the fanboy-ism. In all honesty I have been continually frustrated by the editing process at Paizo, frustrated almost to the point of considering canceling my subscriptions, but until now I have held my tongue. The reality though is that the situation is clearly not improving, no matter how much various individuals curse the problem. This is something that had better seriously receive some attention. There is a very strong, growing sentiment among many I have spoken or communicated with regarding the horrible editing on book after book and its reaching a breaking point.
Ok, commence savaging.
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It is why I am thankful for the "Ignore User" Greasemonkey script.
I didn't care for the idea of that Ignore User option, since it seemed likely to make conversation too incestuous, with people slowing pulling their head further into the sand, surrounding themselves only with an 'echo chamber' of those whose opinions and tones agreed with their own preferences.
That you still see these forums as a hotbed of cliquishness and hostility *despite* filtering out users whose posts seem cliquish and hostile, means that my preconceptions may have been unfounded.
I wonder if running this script increasingly turns into a game of 'whack-a-mole,' where it seems like people who need to be Ignored start popping up with ever-increasing frequency the longer you use it.
Ok, commence savaging.
[half-hearted swipe] Grr!
Since you asked. :)
Being on the side of the people who are quite happy with the system and the general tone of the boards here, I do see a group of three or more people who will continually harp on every disputed rule and do so in a rude tone to everybody who responds. Those people seem to be in a constant fortress mentality, where everybody who doesn't instantly agree with their criticism is an enemy and must be denigrated.
So I guess it is a thing of perceptions.
I didn't care for the idea of that Ignore User option, since it seemed likely to make conversation too incestuous, with people slowing pulling their head further into the sand, surrounding themselves only with an 'echo chamber' of those whose opinions and tones agreed with their own preferences.
I only "ignore" people who I feel are rude or disrespectful to others, not people who disagree civilly and politely. I really enjoy seeing varying perspectives but I have no patience for people who belittle and disrespect others. I have a great deal of appreciation for civility and manners though.
That you still see these forums as a hotbed of cliquishness and hostility *despite* filtering out users whose posts seem cliquish and hostile, means that my preconceptions may have been unfounded.
I can't filter everyone out or it'd be too quiet! lol
I wonder if running this script increasingly turns into a game of 'whack-a-mole,' where it seems like people who need to be Ignored start popping up with ever-increasing frequency the longer you use it.
Not really, or at least not in my case because I have identified 4-5 poster's as repeatedly rude and belligerent to others. My ignore list grew quickly, then stopped. I haven't added anyone to it in quite some time.
[half-hearted swipe] Grr!
Since you asked. :)
lol :)
Being on the side of the people who are quite happy with the system and the general tone of the boards here, I do see a group of three or more people who will continually harp on every disputed rule and do so in a rude tone to everybody who responds. Those people seem to be in a constant fortress mentality, where everybody who doesn't instantly agree with their criticism is an enemy and must be denigrated.
So I guess it is a thing of perceptions.
Yes, there are, in my estimation, just a few (though for me its more like 4-5) individuals who have seriously poor social skills. I choose not to interact with those specific individuals.
Also, there is a very strong "fan-boy" factor on these boards and any negative comments will very quickly be attacked. Its fairly pointless to try to say anything negative about anything Paizo does so generally it comes down to "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all" which, of course, just feeds into the fanboy-ism. In all honesty I have been continually frustrated by the editing process at Paizo, frustrated almost to the point of considering canceling my subscriptions, but until now I have held my tongue. The reality though is that the situation is clearly not improving, no matter how much various individuals curse the problem. This is something that had better seriously receive some attention. There is a very strong, growing sentiment among many I have spoken or communicated with regarding the horrible editing on book after book and its reaching a breaking point.Ok, commence savaging.
Yes there are "Fan-persons" but you will find the same people over at the Rifts forum, En world, Steve Jackson's forums, Hasbro.... all games have their rabid fans, that embarrass the normal fans.
I think way people start their threads about their concerns dictates if a thread will be hostile or not - its self trolling. If you start a thread With OMG, WTF, Broken, OverPowered, Seriously, Face Palm then you obviously you are looking for a fight. It attracts the fanboys and the trolls like a big NEON sign saying "flame war in this thread".
If you start a thread - "I have a concern about, I don't understand," and so on you aren't starting your post off with hostility. People interested in the rules will comment and often if they have the time the Paizo staff will explain some of their decisions... (I have not experienced this level accessibility to the staff of a game company anywhere else).
Why not try a thread with "These are some of my concerns with editing"
I feel that Paizo's success may be part of the reason that recently there have been some mistakes slip through and because they are doing so well they are trying to do too-much.
They have taken steps to fix the editing problems (hiring more staff and so on) but I would say that there will be a period of transition that between the changes that you might find the odd largish mistake slip past.
Raise your concerns - in a neutral way, don't feed the fan-boys that foam at the mouth and see what happens.
EDIT: now I am wondering if I am on jreyst list - if so can somebody let him know what I said.
As your posts always seem polite you can rest assured you are not on my list :)
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The reality though is that the situation is clearly not improving, no matter how much various individuals curse the problem. This is something that had better seriously receive some attention. There is a very strong, growing sentiment among many I have spoken or communicated with regarding the horrible editing on book after book and its reaching a breaking point.
Ok, commence savaging.
No, I'm not going to savage you. Actually I was curious; what kinds of editing problems have you noticed a lot of? Are they stat block problems or spelling and grammar issues? Admittedly I haven't had a lot of time lately to really parse my Paizo buys, but I haven't noticed an unusually high number of editing errors in any case. Certainly no more than other major publishers. It's possible I've been overlooking any editing issues subconsciously because I've enjoyed the creative aspect of Pathfinder so much.
Thanks!
I don't know why these posts bother anybody. He's mixing legitimate criticism with hyperbole in an obvious attempt at humor. It's not like he's personally insulting anybody or derailing anybody else's thread.I do not find his style of humour funny. His tone is belittling and dismissive, especially when people dont understand that he is trying to be funny.
The question isn't whether or not people find him funny. The question is whether or not people are overreacting to what he writes. He's being rude and condescending in his own thread whose purpose is being subversive.