Just because prostitution is legal somewhere does not mean that I find cult prostitution sympathetic or that I find attempts to make cult prostitution less morally reprehensible.
Good thing it is CN deity and your whining is therefore null and void given the proclivities of the other non-kill-people-to-death CN deities.
Take a look at the various threads he has started or taken over ... unfortunately, that is exactly what MIB does - repeats his point over and over and over again ... because, you know, because his opinion is right and the rest of us need to have it shoved down our throat until we agree with him or get sick and tired of it and just give up on the thread.Fine, we have noted your opinion. Do you really think that voicing it 20 times using a different expletive each time will make it any stronger ?
This is why all future posts in this thread should consist of something along the lines of "You can go ahead and close this thread now."
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Cheliax are the devil-worshipping antagonists of that adventure path. Their leader is a half-fiend with a pit fiend vizier. I don't have a problem with slavers as long as the slavers aren't presented sympathetically.
And Taldor, and Kaer Maga, and Osiron, and Qaddria...
Wow, it's a good thing you don't run Golarion, must be boring having all the PCs come from the upright and pure Andoran stock.
Yes, this thread can definately be closed now.
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Slavery and genocide are universally presented as unsympathetic evils in Golarion.
Find me an adventurer who hasn't wiped out hundreds of Orc and Goblinkin and I will show you some one who hasn't adventured.
This trait really is a non issue - I almost think at this point you are just looking for things to complain about.
Bingo.
I cant believe the rest of you Rose to the bait. I'm not claiming that these boards should be a Paizo lovefest, but MiB obviously has a bone to pick with Paizo. If it were this thread alone I would have though his beef was coming from an honest and legit place. He has another thread out there that is skewering the APG just to skewer it.
Being that most of the principals are busy away at GenCon, I'm wondering if the timeing for this stuff is deliberate.
Either way have fun guys.
Cheliax are the devil-worshipping antagonists of that adventure path. Their leader is a half-fiend with a pit fiend vizier. I don't have a problem with slavers as long as the slavers aren't presented sympathetically.By the way, slavery is also a fact presented in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, It is completely legal, for example in the empire of Cheliax, which is the backdrop for an entire adventure path, as well as one of the playable factions in Pathfinder Society organized play. I'm certain that any number of Chelaxians are portrayed as sympathetic people, for many of which slavery is an accepted fact of life.
Maybe Paizo's adult-oriented outlook is just not for you, and you should just find a different game.
Actually, the antagonists in Council of theives are sympathetic, that part of why they are such interesting villains, because the cause of their villain are understandable, they are even fairly charismatic and interesting people who you could like.
And the PCs in that adventure are assumed to be local cheliaxians who actually benefit as much as most of the society does from the slave ownership of the nobility.
I see a lot of comments about how Pathfinder is a mature game for mature gamers such as themselves combined with terribly immature views on how morality is presented. It's not offensive to have a setting where social evils exist; utopias don't have much on the way of conflict. It's offensive to have a setting where social evils are presented to the reader as sympathetic forces of good.
And it is of course you who decides what those "social evils" are.
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I like the trait. Furthermore it was a standout for my fiancée who has already stated he will be playing a Calistrian prostitute in our next game. It is still in the earliest of planning stages, but the general idea is that the character will use his seductive abilities to make ‘friends in high places’ and then use those connections to the church’s advantage.
If prostitution offends you (I don’t see why it would, but whatever. It takes all kinds and this is not the time/place to debate that topic.) then…
A. Leave it out of your games
Or
B. Only allow evil NPC/PCs or their slaves to practice it.
Then
C. STFUA.
I see a lot of comments about how Pathfinder is a mature game for mature gamers such as themselves combined with terribly immature views on how morality is presented. It's not offensive to have a setting where social evils exist; utopias don't have much on the way of conflict. It's offensive to have a setting where social evils are presented to the reader as sympathetic forces of good.And it is of course you who decides what those "social evils" are.
Maybe he's secretly the author of the new Chick Tracts! Since official D&D is fairly squeaky clean in it's presentation (not an attack against 4E people) they're targeting Paizo now.
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Tell you what MIB - you have expressed your moral outrage over a perfectly reasonable trait in the APG. You have tried to ram your opinion down everyone's throat MANY times over. In fact, in this and other threads, you have droned on and on and on about how much you don't like the APG, how much of a problem you have with Paizo and / or various members of the company.
Trust me, we all get it.
And I'm sure there are plenty of people that see the timing of all your rants while most of Paizo is away from the boards for what it is.
Now, show us you have some level of tact and decency - take a break from these threads for a while and cool off. Show us you are not just posting incesantly because you just want to be difficult.
Can you do that? Please?
MiB, I would like to point out that many societies throughout the world had sacred prostitutes and temples dedicated to women. These existed until fairly recently (I am not sure if any still exist, but I would not be suprised). These were honored positions within the community. You may not want to include this in your game, and you do not have to, but that does not make it any less a part of the real world. Including something in the game that has correlaries to history, classic liturature, and modern fiction is not a bad thing.
Just because prostitution is legal somewhere does not mean that I find cult prostitution sympathetic or that I find attempts to make cult prostitution less morally reprehensible.
Do you find it morally reprehensible within the fantasy setting even if the prostitute is a willing participant (not a victim) and has a position of prestige as a result?
If the prostitute is not being victimised, why do you find it repugnant?
Also, let's get your thoughts clear about this. Does it matter to you whether the prostitute is male or female? As far as I can tell, modern western society has no problems with male prostitution so it shouldn't have a problem with female prostitution. Just look at comedic films such as Deuce Bigalow. Do you find that film morally reprehensible? I just can't stand the sexual double standards that exist in our culture that people choose to ignore.
No, Cheliax is a country full of normal people, most of them following Golarion deities and paying, at best, lip-service to the devil-worshippers.That doesn't have anything to do with anything. The people in charge of how Cheliax are run are elemental evil or in league with elemental evil, and Cheliaxan slavers are never presented sympathetically. Nobody's saying that everyone from Cheliax is evil, but in the products I've read when characters espouse, defend, or practice slavery it is a moral lapse at best and outright evil at worst.
I see a lot of comments about how Pathfinder is a mature game for mature gamers such as themselves combined with terribly immature views on how morality is presented. It's not offensive to have a setting where social evils exist; utopias don't have much on the way of conflict. It's offensive to have a setting where social evils are presented to the reader as sympathetic forces of good.
It's ok to slaughter Orcs and Goblins by the hundreds, but never shall they be put to work without fair pay and holidays off.
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I like the trait. Furthermore it was a standout for my fiancée who has already stated he will be playing a Calistrian prostitute in our next game. It is still in the earliest of planning stages, but the general idea is that the character will use his seductive abilities to make ‘friends in high places’ and then use those connections to the church’s advantage.
Lol. To be honest, the main effect this thread has had for me is to spark an interest in playing a priest or priestess of Calistra. Maybe for my next PFS character. :)
It's offensive to have a setting where social evils are presented to the reader as sympathetic forces of good.Calistria is CN (Lust, Revenge etc), she is not a force of good.
Doesn't mean I can't play a sympathetic priestess of Calistria who might even have been a sacred prostitute. Or have her portrayed in an adventure.
This is why all future posts in this thread should consist of something along the lines of "You can go ahead and close this thread now."
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And I'm sure there are plenty of people that see the timing of all your rants while most of Paizo is away from the boards for what it is.I miss Erik Mona's presence on the boards. He does an excellent job of moderating, deleting nonsense like what you just posted.
Oh, I'd say we are all pretty confidant that if (or more likely, when) Erik or another Paizo employee jumps in here, they will have no problem seeing the origins of all the nonsense ...
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You see AMIB, you keep pointing to examples of maturity in gaming and how things are handled as example of such maturity. I feel I should note that you could show a bit of maturity by simply letting this go instead of trying to impress upon others your own belief system. You are instead showing how immature you are by your inability to handle something of this nature as it regards to your role-playing experience. If you think prostitution is a "bad" "immoral" or "ungodly" thing then cool, but please don't go about claiming moral superiority by stating that reference it is smut or the like.
One thing I especially don't like is your making reference to specific authors as being servitors to such things, and I am almost certain that the staff here about paizo don't appreciate such remarks as well. It is not only uncouth, but shows how poorly you are able to handle things that fall outside of your "comfort zone." You have been flagged for just this as well, you should know better.
To everybody else still posting here, I recommend finding your life preservers as this ship is sinking fast and unless you want to be pulled further into this ocean of pointless debate and dribble you should see yourself to the nearest lifeboat.
I personally dont have a problem with this trait. It definately has a place in a fantasy setting in my opinion, if it is done well. I am for instance a fan of Jaqueline Carrie's Kushiel's Legacy series. There are prostitutes with a religious motivation there, and they are presented in a positive light. The main protagonist is even among them. Its certainly not for everyone, but the concept is present enough in the fantasy conciousness where it makes sense to include it in the pathfinder roleplaying game.
I have zero problem with this or the concept of a prostitute being sympethetic or gaining something from their experience as one.
No, Cheliax is a country full of normal people, most of them following Golarion deities and paying, at best, lip-service to the devil-worshippers.That doesn't have anything to do with anything. The people in charge of how Cheliax are run are elemental evil or in league with elemental evil, and Cheliaxan slavers are never presented sympathetically. Nobody's saying that everyone from Cheliax is evil, but in the products I've read when characters espouse, defend, or practice slavery it is a moral lapse at best and outright evil at worst.
I see a lot of comments about how Pathfinder is a mature game for mature gamers such as themselves combined with terribly immature views on how morality is presented. It's not offensive to have a setting where social evils exist; utopias don't have much on the way of conflict. It's offensive to have a setting where social evils are presented to the reader as sympathetic forces of good.
You think prostitution is social evil ? Sex is probably one of the best way to contain the violence level in a human society.
And, even if prositution can have its dark side in modern world, in that peculiar context of free-willing whore-priestess (like in Mesopotamian Ishtar's cult...), I really do not see any "evil" ?
Sex is indeed part of human societies and is linked with power and money...
I've been intrigued by some cultures in fantasy and fiction (possibly based on historical accounts), who present "sacred prostitutes" not as disease-infested, low-life street dwellers, but as keepers and instructors of the sacred sexual. In modern culture, especially in the U.S., men are condition to obtain the big "O" as quickly as possible, and the sexual act is simply a means to that end. However, there are some societies who explore all aspects of sensuality and the spiritual aspects thereof. I can see a "Sacred Prostitute" as being such a person.
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I see a lot of comments about how Pathfinder is a mature game for mature gamers such as themselves combined with terribly immature views on how morality is presented. It's not offensive to have a setting where social evils exist; utopias don't have much on the way of conflict. It's offensive to have a setting where social evils are presented to the reader as sympathetic forces of good.
You misspelled "forces of neutrality".
No, Cheliax is a country full of normal people, most of them following Golarion deities and paying, at best, lip-service to the devil-worshippers.That doesn't have anything to do with anything. The people in charge of how Cheliax are run are elemental evil or in league with elemental evil, and Cheliaxan slavers are never presented sympathetically. Nobody's saying that everyone from Cheliax is evil, but in the products I've read when characters espouse, defend, or practice slavery it is a moral lapse at best and outright evil at worst.
I see a lot of comments about how Pathfinder is a mature game for mature gamers such as themselves combined with terribly immature views on how morality is presented. It's not offensive to have a setting where social evils exist; utopias don't have much on the way of conflict. It's offensive to have a setting where social evils are presented to the reader as sympathetic forces of good.
I am sorry, but no, that isn't a mature view. its staggering black and white, and dependant on a sort of moral absolutism that falls appart under serious scrutiny.
It is a view that completely ignoring that individuals are motivated by complex series of social, enviromental and genetic presures. Actions, even atrocious ones, are rarely acts of pure good or pure evil, and trying to fit such terms onto them almost always leads to a Myopic world view of good guys and bad guys.
You say that your offended by prostitution being treated as a good thing. Now firstly, at no point does the trait say that sacred prostitution within a calastrian temple is a good thing. It makes no moral or ethical judgement at all about it. Now its been six month plus, but last time I read anything regarding calistria's temples, but from what i remember it made it fairly clear that being in such an institution had both advantages and disadvantages, again, it does not say that the practice is either right or wrong, it leaves individuals to decide for themselves.
Interesting, by the way, that playing a character that used to be a sacred prostitute previous to starting her adventuring career seems to be so much more offensive and reprehensible, than say, playing a chaotic evil antipaladin, whose code requires him to seek atonement if he passes up the opportunity to commit an evil act, or - Abyss forbid! - commits a good act.
Those are some weirdly skewed moral standards indeed.
Yes, I know, the antipaladin is not "portrayed as sympathetic", but, really, neither is the "Sacred Prostitute" trait.
I am for instance a fan of Jaqueline Carrie's Kushiel's Legacy series. There are prostitutes with a religious motivation there, and they are presented in a positive light. The main protagonist is even among them. Its certainly not for everyone, but the concept is present enough in the fantasy conciousness where it makes sense to include it in the pathfinder roleplaying game.
Excellent books! I am a fan, too.
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To everybody else still posting here, I recommend finding your life preservers as this ship is sinking fast and unless you want to be pulled further into this ocean of pointless debate and dribble you should see yourself to the nearest lifeboat.
An EXCELLENT idea! I think the best course here is for all of us to just drop out of the thread altogether and let MIB howl and complain by himself. Every new post we make just encourages his behavior and gets him all excited because he then gets to post a new inflammatory response. It's probably time to jump off now - it's only a matter of time before the thread is locked anyway.
Reworded this entire thread should simply read....
Posters: The sacred prostitute thing just doesn't offend most of us. We're sorry you feel that way Man in Black. I guess we all have varying levels of tastes and ideas of what should be included in game.
Man in Black: Yeah, I find it slightly offensive. It's kinda funny how somethings bother people and don't bother others. I thought others would be more turned off by it. I guess I just won't include it in my game.
Posters: Cool man. Enjoy. Here are some scissors so you can cut the offending page out of the book.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Do you find it morally reprehensible within the fantasy setting even if the prostitute is a willing participant (not a victim) and has a position of prestige as a result?
If the prostitute is not being victimised, why do you find it repugnant?
Do you find it morally reprehensible within a fantasy setting if a slave is a willing participant, and has a position of prestige? I do, for the same reasons, and I'll tell you why.
I'm not outraged because I feel some fictional people are being victimized. They're imaginary. I can kill a million ideas in the most horrible manner for my entertainment any time I want with no moral qualm whatsoever. They're ideas; they don't suffer.
I am outraged that someone would present an objective social evil as good in fiction, using the same justifications as the people in the real world who defend that objective social evil. In the real world, those same justifications are far too often an outright lie, no less so because the speaker often believes it. "Benevolent prostitution" in the real world has never been wholly benevolent, and to create a fantasy of benevolent prostitution is irresponsible and sickening because it reinforces in the minds of the unknowing, deluded, and undecided the idea that prostitution can be benevolent and beneficent. (I mentioned Jack Bauer of 24 before; he's completely right to torture within the setting, but I find this fantasy of benevolent torture just as repugnant and for the same reasons.)
It is dissimilar from slavery in that way because, thankfully, nearly everyone anywhere you can buy a Paizo book slavery is a known social evil, completely illegal, and highly taboo. I hope someday someone can publish an RPG book with benevolent prostitution and everyone will understand "That's a fantasy, the real world doesn't work like that." Unfortunately, it is highly irresponsible to publish such a book in the world we live in, and I find the idea that someone would glamorize and justify prostitution in this way sickening.
Doubly disappointing is the fact that I know a fair amount of fiction perpetuates this fantasy. Terry Goodkind and Robert Heinlein I picked on in particular; I could also call out John Norman. I can't deny that there's an audience for it, sad as that makes me. However! It's trivial to omit this deeply offensive fantasy from the setting-neutral rules books. If this terrible idea is an irrevocable part of Golarion, so be it. Let it be a part of Golarion in the Golarion books.
So, you should be the censor for everyone else? Your beliefs and opinions are above reproach and anything that differs from them is the premise of those less moral and/or those too stupid to know any better? Wow. Just, Wow.
I am outraged that someone would present a subjective social evil as good in fiction,
I fixed it for you.
I am finding your holier-than-thou gibbering combined with a complete and utter inability to separate your personal trees from the forest of a full-blown fantasy world quite tiring.This is a fantasy WORLD. There is good and evil. Chaos and law. Princes, paupers, thieves, and tyrants. IT IS ALL ENCOMPASSING. Your argument would be great WERE YOU A CHARACTER. But you aren't. You are a real person who refuses to accept a randomly generated fantasy world as a fantastical approximation of the real world instead of the real world itself.*
Passive aggressiveness may not be in the DSM, but I know what is...
*Of course, a lot of people have that problem..
I don't know how I should feel about the fact that A Man in Black is making me agree with Cartigan.
Former prostitute, in the same sense as former slave or orphan, doesn't offend me at all. Having been wronged by a social evil doesn't make you a bad person. And nobody thinks antipaladins are good people. I am offended by a publisher presenting people who promote, perpetuate, and defend institutional prostitution as sympathetic people doing good work. Nobody thinks antipaladins are sympathetic people doing good work.
Care to climb down off your high horse and figure out what the hell you are talking about
