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I have one Major problem with am Alchemist, The Alchemist weapon is a Potion Vial, problem is there are no items I can find in Pathfinder that makes it easy for retrieval.
Every time you want to use your ability to make a Potion you need to take a Move action to retrieve a Vial which also provokes an attack of opportunity.
For my home games this is not really an issue, I can just invent an Item for the Alchemist players that allows them to draw a Potion just like drawing a weapon out of a Sheath - Combined with a regular move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, but I can't do this with the Game I mostly Play, Pathfinder Society Games.
Paizo had the perfect opportunity do do something about this with the Adventures Sash in 'Seekers of Secrets' which states:
Each pouch has a stiff leather flap that can be secured against jostling with a clasp(requiring a move action to open or close) or left unfastened for easier access.
But they never actually added rules for what "easier access" means.
I feel the unfairly penalizes the Alchemist in society play and would love to see an item that would solve this issue, something maybe matching all the art of the alchemist that shows the vials in easy reach.
Anyone know of a way to solve this issue using current items or rules that can be used at a Society table?
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Mixing and throwing a bomb is a standard action.
Using an extract seems to be the same as using a potion.
Seems fair.
Very much so. I do think however there should be a way to "drink defensively" in general though, not just for alchemists. Potion drinking in combat is nearly as dangerous as ignoring your health what with the AoO and all.
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Very much so. I do think however there should be a way to "drink defensively" in general though, not just for alchemists. Potion drinking in combat is nearly as dangerous as ignoring your health what with the AoO and all.Mixing and throwing a bomb is a standard action.
Using an extract seems to be the same as using a potion.
Seems fair.
Extract Hat.
Problem solved.
I think that the RAW are fair, bombs are a standered action unless you have fast bomb, and Extract should be the same as drinking a poition. But the drinking defensively sounds like a good Idea to me. how would it work full round action no AoO.
in the end you are going to get AoO on you at some point and really I am ok with that.
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The problem is, you are going much slower then any other class. for Alchemist it is all about the potion, by having to perform a move action to retrieve them that proves an attack of opportunity I still feel you are being penalized unfairly compared to other classes main abilities. If you want to move that round you are pretty much not doing anything, it will be impossible to get into throwing range and act in the same round.
many times it will take 2 rounds to get off your main ability, how many other classes get penalized like that for their main power? How is that balanced and fair?
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for not agreeing with me...you will be punished Saturday... ;)Mixing and throwing a bomb is a standard action.
Using an extract seems to be the same as using a potion.
Seems fair.
Aw, you wouldn't want to leave Rags without a master.
The way I see it the Alchemist gets all simple weapons, light armor, bombs as a standard action, and the Throw Anything feat.
The fact that his spell mimicry and mutagen buffing can take a full round seems fair.
Or in some cases couldn't the Alchemist have his extract out and ready the previous round and then the next round still have his move action and be able to use the extract/mutagen?
Well, with stuff like combine extract and Mutagens that last a while, and really a lot of extracts to as well, Alchemist may have to give up a round or Two but when they get in the fight they are buffed pretty well, I kind of see it like a cleric’s healing spells, they did not do any action that helped them or hurt the enemy but he party is in a better spot. The Alchemist my not have hurt the enemy and maybe an AoO but not always. But they are buffed now and pretty well, and with the swift poison stuff the Alchemist has lots of options on his turn.
Accelerated drink trait is also a big help with the alchemist.
I really like the Alchemist Class, and I have had a few time where the Alchemist out damaged the Fighter with feral mutagen and other times where my alchemist took the roll of the healer really well and then AoE better then the Mage. The class has some obstacles to work around but the versatility of the class more then make up for the obstacles.
All that being said, I would love a way to draw a potion as a free action and then drink it as a move with Accelerated Drinker, Would the spring sheath item from the Adventurer’s Armory work for that. I don’t have the book or the PDF handy I am at work, slacking off.
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For starters, keep in mind, I don't have the book. I'd say just turn extracts into a standard action to grab and use all at once - they're spell-alikes, after all.
Hold it up to four things - balance, fun, "Makes sense," and comparisons.
Balance: Alchemists are so hilairously not "superpowered" if they can use extracts as a standard action without the move action to draw. Furthermore, using your entire action for just one thing is precisely why bombs were altered into a standard action instead of a standard + move in the first place.
Fun: Wasting your entire round isn't fun, especially when no other class has to do it. And again, there is a reason bombs were changed to a standard instead of a standard + move.
"Makes sense:" Here's the first real argument towards making it take the whole round - potions do, so this would to.
Comparisons: No other spell-alike requires a full round save metamagic'd spells. As I mentioned in balance, alchemists are not wizard level in strength, so making them suffer while wizards scoot on by is terrible. Secondly, the other alchemist ability, bombs, used to b a standard + move, but this was changed after a whole lot of outcry.
Prognosis: extracts/mutagens are a standard action :3
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The Alchemist is not a spell-caster. He mimics spell-casting through extracts and mutagens. I don't see a problem, thematically or mechanically, with there being a slight drawback to this.
His main offense is a standard action and he gets to wear armor without a chance of "spell" failure. The Alchemist is fine as written.
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The Alchemist is not a spell-caster. He mimics spell-casting through extracts and mutagens. I don't see a problem, thematically or mechanically, with there being a slight drawback to this.
His main offense is a standard action and he gets to wear armor without a chance of "spell" failure. The Alchemist is fine as written.
No His main attack is a Move+Standard Action, Even a Figther at 1st level does not need to take move action to prep his Main attack. Eveyrone else once they have a BAB of +1 don't need a move action, they can perform the action while moving.
This is how it would work for a Bomb.
Move into throwing distance, if vial is not ready take another move action to retireve vial, next round make bomb an throw as a standard action.
a fighter could move and attack the same round, alchemist can't, that is my problem. All other classes can move and attack with main attack ability, as far as I know only the Alchemist can't.
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Couple of things,
I don't want an item that can allow me to retrieve the vial as a free action, I just want something that that allows me to retrieve the vial during a move action like a weapon sheathe.
The original intent of the Adventures Sash was just that, but that text was never added to save space, I would like to see that text put in so it can be clarified as that for Society use. This is from the writer who wrote that item up.
Getting an item from a secured pouch would count as retrieving a stored item, from an unsecured pouch would count as "in easy reach", letting you use the "draw or sheathe a weapon" action to get at it. Burning an entire item's worth of words describing that didn't seem like an efficient use of text. Being able to switch configurations is a small benefit that probably only matters if your GM enforces some amount of realism when your character falls, gets hung upside down, or dumped in the water.
Another thing, I have known GMs who rule it is a move action to open a backpack, and another move action to retrieve the item, I want to so avoid that!
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This is how it would work for a Bomb.
Move into throwing distance, if vial is not ready take another move action to retireve vial, next round make bomb an throw as a standard action.
a fighter could move and attack the same round, alchemist can't, that is my problem. All other classes can move and attack with main attack ability, as far as I know only the Alchemist can't.
As I understand it, mixing and throwing a bomb is always a standard action. The Alchemist can move into range, retrieve the elements of his bomb, and throw it in one round.
Extracts/mutagens seem to work as a potion mechanic. I don't have the formulae list right in front of me but I don't think the Alchemist has a lot of combat extracts anyway.
And maybe a mutagen takes a full round to retrieve and use, but the next round the Alchemist can attack with +4 STR or DEX.
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This is how it would work for a Bomb.
Move into throwing distance, if vial is not ready take another move action to retireve vial, next round make bomb an throw as a standard action.
a fighter could move and attack the same round, alchemist can't, that is my problem. All other classes can move and attack with main attack ability, as far as I know only the Alchemist can't.
As I understand it, mixing and throwing a bomb is always a standard action. The Alchemist can move into range, retrieve the elements of his bomb, and throw it in one round.
Extracts/mutagens seem to work as a potion mechanic. I don't have the formulae list right in front of me but I don't think the Alchemist has a lot of combat extracts anyway.
And maybe a mutagen takes a full round to retrieve and use, but the next round the Alchemist can attack with +4 STR or DEX.
I am more concerned about the bomb, and how it works, is making *mixing* and throwing the bomb is a standard action, but you still need to get the actual vial to make it, which adds another move action, it works just like any other item retrival, for components the spell pouch covers that, which does not require a move action to access, but there are no items similar to the spell pouch for a alchemist.
all you need is a hat with 2 vial holders attached and a tube which runs from them to your mouth. Then you can suck down a potion as a free action while fighting. Think "the really drunk guy at the football game"
You'd want to drink that bomb, as well?
:)
That's the mix the OP is really referring to (the bomb). Being able to move and mix/throw in the same round. And I think it's a valid concern.
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per the APG: In order to create a
bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing
an ounce of liquid catalyst—
Creating and throwing a bomb requires a standard
action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
So, clearly, retrieving the small vial is part of the creation process that is part of the standard action.
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I believe that retrieving the vial is considered part of 'mixing the bomb'. Similarly, when a spellcaster casts a spell with a material component, they do not spend a move action to draw out the material components from a component pouch.
Thus, until I see official rules stating (clearly) otherwise, the standard action required to mix and throw the bomb includes retrieving the vial.
I agree, though I can also see Dragnmoon's POV and some GMs might read it as he does creating some problems in home games and uncertainty in PFS play.
The issue with the extracts I think it pretty clear though.
My solution to extracts is to use them as buffs prior to combat or as a full round action in the first round of combat. My GM also lets me use the spring loaded write sheaths to access 2 extracts or mutagens as a swift action but YMMV on that. Accelerated drinker from the Chelliax Companion is a great trait also.
Oh, bombs.
Bombs are very specifically a standard action both to pull out the vial and to make it into a bomb AND to throw it. You do all of that in one standard action.
During the beta/playtests, it required both a move action and a standard action. The end result was a terribly crippled class who couldn't do anything.
As for extracts, same as bombs - standard action to do everything all at once. You don't make spellcasters use a move action to draw components out, why make alchemists?
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Oh, bombs.
Bombs are very specifically a standard action both to pull out the vial and to make it into a bomb AND to throw it. You do all of that in one standard action.
During the beta/playtests, it required both a move action and a standard action. The end result was a terribly crippled class who couldn't do anything.
As for extracts, same as bombs - standard action to do everything all at once. You don't make spellcasters use a move action to draw components out, why make alchemists?
What?
I'm looking at the rules and it's not 'very specific', maybe you can point it out. The rules talk about vials of catalysts fairly explicitly, then it talks about "Creating and throwing" being a standard action. It does not talk about how you might retrieve said vials of catalysts. FWIW, I agree with you on this but I don't think it's clear and would love something very specific to point to.
As for extracts, "they behaive like spells in potion form"... seems pretty clear to me that they are used like potions. There is nothing in the class which suggests alchemists get to retrieve potions or things in potion form as a free action.
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Well as the PFRPG is backward compatible there is always the Potion belt & masterwork Potion belt from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. They hold 6 or 10 potions, oils, or vials of poison, yadda-yadda and allow you to pull one as a free action 1/ round that does not provoke an AoO. Costs 1gp or 60gp respectively.
Likewise there are bandoliers & mwk version that holds flasks, or daggers, darts, or other small drawable items. Hold 8 or 12 objects and cost 5sp or 50gp respectively. Doesn't grant any action saving economy, but has them out in the open for qucik draw.
--Vrock bottom prices on all inventory!!!
move into range, throw bomb 1/round. Next round hope you killed something cause they will be pissed (6 stirge attached onto me after I hit them with a bomb!)
I remember the discussions and it might be in the forums somewhere that the entire act of making and throwing a bomb is a standard action that provokes an AoO.
as for extracts we've been treating them like a potion, same rules for what you can and can't do in a round unless otherwise stated.
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move into range, throw bomb 1/round. Next round hope you killed something cause they will be pissed (6 stirge attached onto me after I hit them with a bomb!)
I remember the discussions and it might be in the forums somewhere that the entire act of making and throwing a bomb is a standard action that provokes an AoO.
This is what most people do... but it sort of assumes that pulling out the vial of is part of 'creating'. The more I think of it the more I think it falls into the same category of spell components. Any GM who wants to say 'creating' a bomb requires a separate action to draw the vial should by extension require spell components be drawn as a move action too. I just wish it were spelled out a touch more clearly.
as for extracts we've been treating them like a potion, same rules for what you can and can't do in a round unless otherwise stated.
Cirno is the only one I've seen suggest this works otherwise. Most people just treat them like potions. All around less good than treating them as spells but they are sill quite good.
"Creating and throwing a bomb requires a standard action."
Done and done. Bombs used to clarify that it took a move action to make and then a standard action to throw, but this was changed to both taking a single standard action together because of how terrible alchemists were with it.
As for extracts, yes, I advocate making it a standard action as well. Again refer to my Big 4.
Balance: Alchemists are so hilairously not "superpowered" if they can use extracts as a standard action without the move action to draw. Furthermore, using your entire action for just one thing is precisely why bombs were altered into a standard action instead of a standard + move in the first place. Limiting extracts to take up the entire round needlessly limits the alchemist, and does so hard.
Fun: Wasting your entire round isn't fun, especially when no other class has to do it. And again, there is a reason bombs were changed to a standard instead of a standard + move. Furthermore, by making extracts/mutagens take the entire round, you hit the point where players just won't use them. Actions are important.
"Makes sense:" Here's the first real argument towards making it take the whole round - potions do, so this would to.
Comparisons: No other spell-alike requires a full round save metamagic'd spells. As I mentioned in balance, alchemists are not wizard level in strength, so making them suffer while wizards scoot on by is terrible. Secondly, the other alchemist ability, bombs, used to be a standard + move, but this was changed after a whole lot of outcry.
Prognosis: extracts/mutagens are a standard action :3
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So wait, Professor, you're argument is basically that, even though it doesn't make sense, it would be more fun for an Alchemist to be able to be more like a regular spell-casting class.
He's not a spellcaster. He's an alchemist. He has to retrieve his spell-mimicking potion-like extracts and ingest them. Unless specifically ruled otherwise -- like the bomb -- this should take a round.
Different classes have different themes, abilities, and limitations. I don't see anything unfair about this.
So wait, Professor, you're argument is basically that, even though it doesn't make sense, it would be more fun for an Alchemist to be able to be more like a regular spell-casting class.
He's not a spellcaster. He's an alchemist. He has to retrieve his spell-mimicking potion-like extracts and ingest them. Unless specifically ruled otherwise -- like the bomb -- this should take a round.
Different classes have different themes, abilities, and limitations. I don't see anything unfair about this.
No.
I'm saying that three of the four Big 4 point at standard action extracts.
You could easily make up a fluffy reason for it to take a standard action...or you just ignore it, just as we've ignored spell components.
Do you make wizards use a move action to draw out spell components? No? But that's realistic! It doesn't make sense otherwise!
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"Creating and throwing a bomb requires a standard action."
Done and done. Bombs used to clarify that it took a move action to make and then a standard action to throw, but this was changed to both taking a single standard action together because of how terrible alchemists were with it.
As I said above, I don't disagree with you on this, I just don't think it's 100% CLEAR. This does nothing to change that. Maybe something from the book where it very clearly spells out the vials are drawn as a free action?
People who are playing the game shouldn't have to know the history of the play test to get this.
As for extracts, yes, I advocate making it a standard action as well. Again refer to my Big 4.
<snip>
Prognosis: extracts/mutagens are a standard action :3
Right now, people are uncertain of what the rules are and tossing out your personal angle (essentially house rules) into the mix is just confusing the issue. So what I'm seeing from you relates not a bit to what's in the rules so I just assume that since what you say flat out contradicts what's in the book you are house ruling stuff based on your personal feelings about balance. Can we please stick to discussing the rules and leave this sort of thing to the house rules forum?
What the book SAYS is: "they behave like spells in potion form". Do you have anything from the book that implies you would use an extract in any way other than as a potion?
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Okay, Professor, let's look at your arguments:
1)Balance. Is an Alchemist having to use a move action every once in a while really a severe disability? You say that the game designers made bombs a standard action for a reason, but you seem to think they have no reason for not doing so with extracts and mutagens.
2)Fun. It would be fun for a Druid to wear metal armor and wield a heavy mace. The Clerics are doing it. Plus, animal companions should get evolution points and be flying Minotaurs shooting lasers out of their eyes.
3)Makes sense. Here you state that it would make sense for use of extracts to be a move+standard action.
4)Comparisons. Alchemists are not spellcasters. They mimic spellcasting through causing physiological changes in their bodies. If the Alchemist has to compare favorably to every aspect of Wizards then what is the point of having different classes.
If it has to be explained, then I'd say the logic behind spell components and bomb creation is similar, while retrieving an extract, drinking it, and allowing for a physiological change takes a bit longer.
flying Minotaurs shooting lasers out of their eyes.
*writes this one down for a future entry in the Book of Beasts.*
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One of the best things for the Alchemist is the Accelerated Drinker combat trait (if your group uses traits, which mine does). It allows you to drink a potion as a move action so long as you started your turn with it in hand. So, with the potion belt you can draw a potion as a free action at the end of your turn, then move action drink it at the start of your next.
Or, you could always be carrying a potion in each hand wherever you go, so that when combat starts you can move action/drink and standard action/drink. Or, Move action/drink, standard action/bomb, free action/draw potion (assuming the potion belt, of course)
As I said above, I don't disagree with you on this, I just don't think it's 100% CLEAR. This does nothing to change that. Maybe something from the book where it very clearly spells out the vials are drawn as a free action?People who are playing the game shouldn't have to know the history of the play test to get this.
I think what Professor is saying is for you to actually create the bomb, you need to pull the vial out in the first place. So the rule of "creating and throwing is a standard action" you would be able to move (if you wished) and then pull vial out, create and then throw.
But I agree, it isn't obvious by any means. It takes some assumption in taking the vial out to create the potion. The rules should explicitly say that to pull vial out, create and throw is a standard action.
The rules should explicitly say that to pull vial out, create and throw is a standard action.Creating and throwing a bomb requires a standard
action that provokes an attack of opportunity. APG, p.28
Yes, we know, that has been quoted more than once this thread. But what is your point?
What is not clear is what is required to 'create' a vial. You probably can assume to create, you have to pull it out, but the RAW is not clear.
I'm not assuming anything.
To me the sentence says that creating and throwing a bomb is standard action.
Creating and throwing a bomb is also a sufficient cause for provoking an AoO.
If you read my post more closely, instead of just looking at my "create and throw a potion should be clarified as a standard action" I also said to pull the vial, create and throw should be clarified if it is a standard action. Not just create and throw.
The question is what consists of creating the potion? Is pulling the vial part of that? The RAW should state that.
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I'm not assuming anything.
To me the sentence says that creating and throwing a bomb is standard action.
Creating and throwing a bomb is also a sufficient cause for provoking an AoO.
Shooting a bow is an attack action. Does this mean that drawing the bow and firing it is all part of that action?
Creating and throwing a bomb is a standard action, Does this mean that drawing a vial of catalyst is part of that action?
Seems like almost everyone ASSUMEs it is part of the same action which is fine with me. I would prefer I didn't have to make assumptions like that since I don't know if the next GM running a PFS game is going to have that assumption as well.
"Creating a bomb" includes retrieving the materials to make a bomb; it's part of the standard action.
"Creating a bomb" includes retrieving the materials to make a bomb; it's part of the standard action.
Thanks for clarifying Sean.
Okay, Professor, let's look at your arguments:
1)Balance. Is an Alchemist having to use a move action every once in a while really a severe disability? You say that the game designers made bombs a standard action for a reason, but you seem to think they have no reason for not doing so with extracts and mutagens.
First off, yes. It is a disability. Look at what other actions take up a full round action - full attacking which does a lot of damage; charging, which isn't even a full action, it's more of a move and standard smashed into one; metamagic'd spellcasting, which is often stated as "not worth it." It's an utterly needless disability that brings low a class that doesn't need it.
2)Fun. It would be fun for a Druid to wear metal armor and wield a heavy mace. The Clerics are doing it. Plus, animal companions should get evolution points and be flying Minotaurs shooting lasers out of their eyes.
None of those are disabilities, however. Those are additions. Two entirely different things. To put it another way - would it be less fun if fighters needed to use a full round action to make a standard attack? Of course not. That would be incredibly stupid.
3)Makes sense. Here you state that it would make sense for use of extracts to be a move+standard action.
By the same line, however, it would make sense for all spells to take a move + standard action.
4)Comparisons. Alchemists are not spellcasters. They mimic spellcasting through causing physiological changes in their bodies. If the Alchemist has to compare favorably to every aspect of Wizards then what is the point of having different classes.
Alchemists are spellcasters, blahdeblahdefluff. They cast spells. It's in the form of extracts! But they're still spell-alikes. Alchemists don't have to compare favorably to every aspect of wizards, but with the full round rule of extracts, they don't compare at all.
If it has to be explained, then I'd say the logic behind spell components and bomb creation is similar, while retrieving an extract, drinking it, and allowing for a physiological change takes a bit longer.
Or realize that logic takes back seat to good mechanics and go "Yeah, standard action."
Know what would make alchemist extracts as a full round more wield-y? A way to lessen it. Potions as they are now are very iffy most of the time due to taking up so much time to use, only truly relevant for pre-battle buffing if for whatever bizarre reason you don't have the person to cast the buffs on hand. Essentially taking a full class and making their main spellcasting abilities equally iffy? Bad call.
Imagine if every spellcaster had to spend a full round action casting a spell. They'd never cast anything! "The enemy is nearby and threatening!" "WELP GUESS I DON'T DO ANYTHING THIS ROUND BUT BACK OFF. BOY THAT WAS EXCITING." Or how about "The enemy hides behind a rock, but if you move left - " "I can do what, watch him move to the other side of the rock and shoot me again? Somehow I don't think I wanted the Benny Hill song to be my soundtrack." What about healing spells? "Don't worry, I'll run up and heal you!" "Actually, you'll run up. And then he'll die. And then you'll heal him." "What."
Or hell, let's just look at the alchemist spells. Absorbing touch - only takes three rounds to do! Or god, alchemical allocation. It has a duration of one round. So you need to Move action standard action drink extract next round move action standard action drink potion. Two rounds of just standing there. Doing nothing. Even more fun are the spells that last one round per level. Bomber's eye? At level 1? "I drink the extract - now I have a better range and a bonus to my bombs!" "Then what?" "Oh. Well, I guess the bonus just goes away before I can do anything with it. Huh." What about detonate? You cast it and then explode. Good thing you have time to run at the enemy - wait, you can't? Welp.
Except Alchemicall Allocation has an interesting thing to notice. It's an alchemist only spell. It has a casting time of standard round. Not move + standard, not full round. Standard.
The fact is, some alchemist spells do not function if it takes a move + standard. Right now, I think it's a bit of a grey area. You drink it like a potion yes - I understand that part - but do you need to "draw the vial" first? With bombs, drawing the vial is a part or the action. I would say that, with extracts, drawing it is also a part of the action - literally the same as bombs.
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Fair points... but I'd say that if using an extract takes a full round, then wouldn't the spell's duration begin the next round? I'm asking; I don't know.
After looking at a couple of spell descriptions, though, they say the casting time is 1 standard action. So I'd say that could mean, like the bomb, retrieving and using an extract is a standard action.
Bombs we know. An official ruling on extracts and mutagens would be nice.
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Alchemists are spellcasters, blahdeblahdefluff. They cast spells. It's in the form of extracts! But they're still spell-alikes.
No they don't cast spells. They are quite clearly NOT spells. They are extracts which are a liquid that you drink. You seem confused on this issue.
They can also take a discovery and hand their extract to a partymate. When their partymate is using an extract does it act differently?
Alchemists don't have to compare favorably to every aspect of wizards, but with the full round rule of extracts, they don't compare at all.
This is like saying a fighter can full attack and move in the same round because they don't compare to wizards. You are ignoring what's written in order to fix a perceived balance problem.
Every time you want to use your ability to make a Potion you need to take a Move action to retrieve a Vial which also provokes an attack of opportunity.
Making a potion takes at least a minute anyway, so you wouldn't really worry about a move action or provoking.
If you mean bombs, it's spelled out, mixing and throwing is a standard, just like casting a spell.
To use a prepared extract, is there any reason to think it's not exactly like a potion? If it's not already in hand, move to draw, standard to drink. If you're worried about provoking, get a Handy Haversack, move to retrieve an item without provoking.
Note - I haven't read the APG yet, so if things have changed since final playtest then this may not apply.
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Until an official-type person says otherwise we have to assume that, while creating and throwing a bomb is a standard action, retrieving and ingesting an extract or mutagen is a move action and a standard action.
This still seems fair to me.
The Alchemist is thematically different from the Wizard and has a different set of skills and abilities. It's not out of line for it to be a little harder for an Alchemist to get a spell off.