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Hello, all. APG spoiler alert.
A question about the very powerful new Combat Patrol feat from the APG.
Combat Patrol (Combat)
Prerequisites: base attack bonus +5, Combat Reflexes, Mobility
Benefit: As a full-round action, you may set up a combat patrol, increasing your threatened area by 5 feet for every 5 points of your base attack bonus. Until the beginning of your next turn, you may make attacks of opportunity against any opponent in this threatened area that provokes attacks of opportunity. You may move as part of these attacks, provided your total movement before your next turn does not exceed your speed. Any movement you make provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
My question is: the feat reads that you may move as a part of these attacks... but nowhere does it imply that you have to. In fact, it plainly says that you threaten the extra spaces. Period. Does this mean that a 15 base attack bonus halfling with a dagger could set up a fifteen-foot line of 'threatened spaces' that he could make melee attacks into without moving?
For example:
X O X X X X
X X X
0 = Halfling PC
X = Threatened Space
Thoughts?
I would say that the enemy has to be in reach to be attacked........ still it would make e.g. a Whip a bit more interesting.
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The feat description doesn't say anything about granting "reach" and just because you threaten a square doesn't mean you can strike into it. If you can reach the square from where you are standing you can make an AoO into it without moving. If you can't then you will have to move to a position where you can. Look at the prerequisites, this feat is all about mobility within the combat space; not reaching things that you wouldn't normally be able to reach.
just my 2 cents but I believe you have to move to the target, I think the threat area just give you a crazy amount of attacks of opportunity. SO if some one moved into the area covered you could move to them and have an AoO, then if someone else moved in to the area you could move to them and have another AoO as long as you still have the movement left, so if you move 15 ft for the with a movement rate of 20 you could not then move 10ft to attack the next guy.
The language dose not specifically say you have to move but I think that it implies movement being necessary. If you had a whip or a reach weapon you would not need to move, but if the fear gave you reach I think that it would say that. Anyway do what the GM says in the end.
It seems pretty clear to me.
A) You set up an area you threaten, that area is your normal threatened area +5 feet per 5 points of BAB you have (which means it's useless before 5th level). So, assuming a medium 15th level fighter with a longsword, you threaten every space within 20 feet of you.
B) To get an AoO in that area, you must have enough movement to reach that character. So, you have a movement of 30 feet. Someone provokes an attack of opportunity 15 feet from you (in range of fighter above). You move 10 feet and do the AoO. Assuming you have combat reflexes (and you'd be an idiot not to with this feat), then if someone (still in the original area) provokes an AoO on the opposite side (20 feet away) you still have 20 feet of movement. You use 15 feet to get close enough to AoO. Finally, someone 15 feet away provokes, but you can't get your third AoO, you don't have enough movement left to get to them.
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shadowlord is correct.
You basically have a huge number of squares around you that trigger your AoOs... but you have to walk up to the foe to deliver your AoO if you have a regular reach of 5ft... makes the enlarge spell and lunge feat combo a whole lot more interesting now! :)
This is excellent news for anyone who's ever taken Combat Reflexes btw, as I always found it nigh useless in play.
Ok, so just to clarify, since this is takes full-round action to implement, any movement you can do will only be 5’ anyways, correct? It’s a bit confusing in saying you can move up to your speed, but you can never make more than a 5’ step anyways when doing a full-round action.
Ok, so just to clarify, since this is takes full-round action to implement, any movement you can do will only be 5’ anyways, correct? It’s a bit confusing in saying you can move up to your speed, but you can never make more than a 5’ step anyways when doing a full-round action.
No no no, this is a special manuever that takes a full round action. You're combining movement with preperation for AoO. Basically, your entire action is moving up to your movement. But, you get to do AoO while you're moving.
My question is, do you provoke attacks of opportunity when you move. It doesn't say you don't, but, it doesn't say you do either. I'd say you do, but the mobility helps a lot.
This is an especially good feat for the new spear fighter, as they get reach and short haft simultaneously making them very good at area control.
This really is a battlefield control feat, not a damage feat.
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Ohhh, you're thinking it just adds reach? Hm... yeah, I can see that. The wording could be clearer.
The question remains, though... can the halfling attack someone across the battlefield without moving? It sounds like 'yes'.
Unless he/she has a fifteen foot reach weapon, NO. The feat grants extra threatened area, not weapon reach by itself.
The "you may move" means that the move action eventually needed to get in reach of the target does not disrupt the full-round routine that expands the threatened area.
I would interprete it that this movement would be your normal speed. (e.g. the move action is part of the "full attack action" required for the combat patrol)
I would interprete it that this movement would be your normal speed. (e.g. the move action is part of the "full attack action" required for the combat patrol)
Bingo, that's how I read it.
I see an awesome bodyguard with this feat, it almost seems to be too good, combat reflexes, dodge and mobility will have to be taken first though, and if you do not have movement the feat isn't that useful.
I see more DM abuse towards players than players abusing creatures in an encounter. Lots of uses there.
Ok, so just to clarify, since this is takes full-round action to implement, any movement you can do will only be 5’ anyways, correct? It’s a bit confusing in saying you can move up to your speed, but you can never make more than a 5’ step anyways when doing a full-round action.No no no, this is a special manuever that takes a full round action. You're combining movement with preperation for AoO. Basically, your entire action is moving up to your movement. But, you get to do AoO while you're moving.
My question is, do you provoke attacks of opportunity when you move. It doesn't say you don't, but, it doesn't say you do either. I'd say you do, but the mobility helps a lot.
Oh, ok, I understand. Thank you for clarifying.
And yes, in the last line of the description it says you provoke AoO.
Mmm. A monk with this feat would be incredible. Ridiculous amount of movement plus solid damage plus an almost guaranteed high Dex.
Good times.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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It seems pretty clear to me.
A) You set up an area you threaten, that area is your normal threatened area +5 feet per 5 points of BAB you have (which means it's useless before 5th level). So, assuming a medium 15th level fighter with a longsword, you threaten every space within 20 feet of you.
B) To get an AoO in that area, you must have enough movement to reach that character. So, you have a movement of 30 feet. Someone provokes an attack of opportunity 15 feet from you (in range of fighter above). You move 10 feet and do the AoO. Assuming you have combat reflexes (and you'd be an idiot not to with this feat), then if someone (still in the original area) provokes an AoO on the opposite side (20 feet away) you still have 20 feet of movement. You use 15 feet to get close enough to AoO. Finally, someone 15 feet away provokes, but you can't get your third AoO, you don't have enough movement left to get to them.
1. This is the correct interpretation and a nice example for demonstration.
2. As to AoOs, yes, your movement does provoke (so Mobility will be high on your list of "want" feats).
3. It's a full-round action because, in essence, you are "saving up" your movement from your current turn to be able to "spend" later for moving up to make AoOs. So, on your turn, you can make a 5-foot step and take this full-round action. During the time in between your turn and your next turn, you can spend up to a single move worth of distance going around AoOing people.
4. Since your base move is the determining factor in how far you can move, people with this feat and Combat Reflexes will have an advantage if they have class features, spells, or items that boost their movement rate.
5. The idea of the feat is precisely to help you be a bodyguard/stand in the breach kind of guy who can literally defend their party members and block access to a large area. Ever get frustrated being a hulking defense fighter and the bad guys just walk by 5 feet outside your reach and laugh while they go attack the squishier party members behind you? That's what this feat is for.
6. In terms of the power of the feat, yeah, it lets you do something you can't normally do.
At the same time, you can't do any special combat tricks that take standard actions (Vital Strike, Cleave) or full-round actions (charge, coup de grace), and you are essentially betting that the AoOs you'll be able to get are going to be more valuable than just taking a full attack or move+attack or whatever on your turn in the first place. In the right situation, it's golden. In others... you might just take your normal turn.
But, it's a nice option to have!
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Okay... so basically, you're saying that reach does not equal threatened squares. I think I get it.
The other way round, but yeah.
I think that its usefulness is very situational, but it's also a really nice option to have in the rules, and the battlefield control possibilities are excellent from a tactical viewpoint.|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Okay... so basically, you're saying that reach does not equal threatened squares. I think I get it.
This feat is definately going on one of my villains very soon.
Yes, but in reverse - the feat lets you:
1. Threaten squares outside of your actual reach; and,2. It lets you move as part of your AoO, allowing you to go over there (to where you DO have reach to them) and bonk an enemy that provokes.
It seems pretty clear to me.
A) You set up an area you threaten, that area is your normal threatened area +5 feet per 5 points of BAB you have (which means it's useless before 5th level). So, assuming a medium 15th level fighter with a longsword, you threaten every space within 20 feet of you.
B) To get an AoO in that area, you must have enough movement to reach that character. So, you have a movement of 30 feet. Someone provokes an attack of opportunity 15 feet from you (in range of fighter above). You move 10 feet and do the AoO. Assuming you have combat reflexes (and you'd be an idiot not to with this feat), then if someone (still in the original area) provokes an AoO on the opposite side (20 feet away) you still have 20 feet of movement. You use 15 feet to get close enough to AoO. Finally, someone 15 feet away provokes, but you can't get your third AoO, you don't have enough movement left to get to them.
Can movement like this trigger Skirmish?
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Can movement like this trigger Skirmish?It seems pretty clear to me.
A) You set up an area you threaten, that area is your normal threatened area +5 feet per 5 points of BAB you have (which means it's useless before 5th level). So, assuming a medium 15th level fighter with a longsword, you threaten every space within 20 feet of you.
B) To get an AoO in that area, you must have enough movement to reach that character. So, you have a movement of 30 feet. Someone provokes an attack of opportunity 15 feet from you (in range of fighter above). You move 10 feet and do the AoO. Assuming you have combat reflexes (and you'd be an idiot not to with this feat), then if someone (still in the original area) provokes an AoO on the opposite side (20 feet away) you still have 20 feet of movement. You use 15 feet to get close enough to AoO. Finally, someone 15 feet away provokes, but you can't get your third AoO, you don't have enough movement left to get to them.
If I recall correctly, skirmish (eventually) just lets you sneak attack whenever you move 10 feet or more. So, yes. Moving is moving.
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Can movement like this trigger Skirmish?No, it's not movement during your turn. It's been awhile, so you might want to double check me on this.
-James
I assumed the poster was referring to the "new" scout archetype from the APG, for rogues (which pretty quickly gets it's sneak attack damage if it moves 10 feet or more). If you're talking about the actual 3.5 scout class, then you're probably right.
With 3.5 skirmish it's a GM call.
Argument for : The manuever takes a full attack action, and is done on my turn. The flavor text states I'm setting up a moving patrol in this area using my full base movement. Therefore, I've moved 10 or more feet on my turn, and I get skirmish.
Argument against : Yes, the flavor says you're moving around patroling the area, but you don't move on your turn you move in response to someone elses movements, so you don't move on your turn and you don't get skirmish.
I'd probably allow it, as it's not game breaking, someone has to provoke the AoO.
Argument against : Yes, the flavor says you're moving around patroling the area, but you don't move on your turn you move in response to someone elses movements, so you don't move on your turn and you don't get skirmish.
Well this movement itself would provoke from enemies, right?
Seeing how your movement could provoke from an enemy before the bad guy's turn, then also after their turn (for a new set of AOOs from the bad guy) I would say that mechanically you are moving when you take the AOOs which wouldn't be on your turn.
That said, the poor old 3.5 scout needs all it can get, so I too would allow it. Just that it would be a house rule for them, as RAW it wouldn't.
-James
LOL
To me, that's actually an argument to give it. If I am provoking attacks of opportunity for movement, then by golly I'm moving, give me my skirmish dice. :)
Actually, I've always liked the scout, and have had it used to devestating consequences in games I run.
I have a player who's favorite combination is :
Poisondusk Lizardfolk
Scout/Warlock
Large size + Combat Patrol. Your threat range is 10 feet. When someone closes next to you, can you move back 5 feet to threaten them with your reach before hitting them with your weapon. If you do, do you threaten from your target for moving away? (I think not, because your move/attack happens before their move into the square.) I can see a reach character using this to prevent an enemy from ever closing with them and getting many more attacks for the enemy attempting to close.
Question: Can a "Combat Patrol-er"'s victim stop moving/change his actions after getting an AoO?
Reasons:
1-A character with Combat Reflexes and Combat Patrol could move and attack up to 3 times the same target (front diagonal, side, back diagonal), or even more, for "getting out of a threatened square".
2-Couldn't the "Combat Patrol-er" get in front of him and force him to bull-rush, move around or use acrobatics to keep moving or charging?
Edit: kinda ninja'd by Caineach!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Large size + Combat Patrol. Your threat range is 10 feet. When someone closes next to you, can you move back 5 feet to threaten them with your reach before hitting them with your weapon. If you do, do you threaten from your target for moving away? (I think not, because your move/attack happens before their move into the square.) I can see a reach character using this to prevent an enemy from ever closing with them and getting many more attacks for the enemy attempting to close.
In theory, you could. However, I would probably rule that your own movement would provoke when you stepped back because now you're leaving a square they threaten without using a 5' step or the withdraw action. Combat Patrol stipulates that your movement provokes, even if you only move 5' (after all, it's not an official "5-foot step action").
So, it would be:
1.
XX
_XX_O_
O moves next to X, provoking an AoO from X.
2.
XX
_XXO__
X has Combat Patrol and 10' reach, so he steps back 5' before taking his AoO
3.
XX
XX_O_
This provokes an AoO from O.
BUT, I can see how you could logically do it the other way, saying that when #1 happens you actually move before O gets next to you. However, if that were the case you'd need to have 5 extra feet of reach because then at the time you made your attack you would actually be like this:
XX
XX__O_
If your reach were only 10', you couldn't attack from back there; hence, you couldn't use Combat Patrol to move there unless it was en route to a location from which you COULD attack.
NOTE: Combat Patrol does not require you to go in the straightest, most direct path towards the target of your AoO. You are free to move tactically, around obstacles or creatures, as long as you can move to a location from which you can make with the stabby-stabby.
Man, now I have to figure out how to get this feat on my feat-starved (but Large, Reach-On-Weapon-Attacks, Glaive-wielding) Eidolon.
New question: can you use combat patrol to fill inside your normal reach with a reach weapon (out to 10 ft for a large creature with a reach weapon), or does it only affect outward? It would be wierd if you could move to a larger area but when you did you can't theaten what was near you.
Also, Does your threatened area re-adjust to your new position if you move to make an AoO?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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New question: can you use combat patrol to fill inside your normal reach with a reach weapon (out to 10 ft for a large creature with a reach weapon), or does it only affect outward? It would be wierd if you could move to a larger area but when you did you can't theaten what was near you.
Interesting question.
I conceived it as outward, but I suppose there's nothing inherently preventing you from using 5' of extra reach to reach IN.
The feat already has a pretty significant opportunity cost - you give up your turn and any regular actions you might perform on the hope that you'll get AoOs that'll make up for it. I don't think allowing you to AoO short-hafting on a reach weapon is any nuttier than letting you run over and kack somebody 15 feet away casting a spell.
This is excellent news for anyone who's ever taken Combat Reflexes btw, as I always found it nigh useless in play.
All viable ways to use Combat Reflexes, short of having a stupid enemy run by you adjacent, which they rarely ever do. Like most feats, it just requires the correct build to get optimal use out of it.
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This is excellent news for anyone who's ever taken Combat Reflexes btw, as I always found it nigh useless in play.Reach weapon & Monk
Reach weapon & Spiked Gauntlets
Enlarge Person (Righteous Might, etc. aka size increase magic)
3.5E Spiked Chain All viable ways to use Combat Reflexes, short of having a stupid enemy run by you adjacent, which they rarely ever do. Like most feats, it just requires the correct build to get optimal use out of it.
The other important part of combat Reflexes is :
With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
This is a really interesting feat! I like it a lot. Requiring mobility I think this would be a solid addition to, and might make worthwhile, a whirlwind attack build.
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Bout to play a game where I'll have a dwarf Polearm Master with a Guisarme and Combat Patrol, at Lvl 10. Lot's of options especially with the ability to shorten his grip (although that prevents him from using Combat Patrol on the next turn). He'll be partied up with a Sorc, a Wizard, and a Monk of the Sacred Mountain.
His movement is the big limiting factor, so the goal is to keep him hasted all the time. As necessary I've requested that the casters have between them fly and enlarge person, because then, if necessary, I can have a 30' sphere of threat that extends upwards as well which will have a 10' hole that I can patch up on a round by round basis anyway. Combined with the Monk, who intends to grab Greater maneuver feats and stay in my threat radius to ensure that the AoO's don't go to waste, this should be great fun.
Also, took Disruptive and Spellbreaker. Anyone else see the hilarity of combining those two feats with Combat Patrol and a reach weapon?
All in the name of keeping the casters safe.
-Drillboss
If you have a spiked chain do you need to move less while using this feat? After all it has reach, but it doesn't threaten at range in PF...
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Bout to play a game where I'll have a dwarf Polearm Master with a Guisarme and Combat Patrol, at Lvl 10. Lot's of options especially with the ability to shorten his grip (although that prevents him from using Combat Patrol on the next turn). He'll be partied up with a Sorc, a Wizard, and a Monk of the Sacred Mountain.
His movement is the big limiting factor, so the goal is to keep him hasted all the time. As necessary I've requested that the casters have between them fly and enlarge person, because then, if necessary, I can have a 30' sphere of threat that extends upwards as well which will have a 10' hole that I can patch up on a round by round basis anyway. Combined with the Monk, who intends to grab Greater maneuver feats and stay in my threat radius to ensure that the AoO's don't go to waste, this should be great fun.
Also, took Disruptive and Spellbreaker. Anyone else see the hilarity of combining those two feats with Combat Patrol and a reach weapon?
All in the name of keeping the casters safe.
-Drillboss
Having a shortened reach doesn't prevent using CP. It just decreases the your "virtual reach" with CP by 5 feet. You can use CP with a dagger if you like.