Compiled APG spoiler thread


Product Discussion

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Ok as spoiler are spread across the board now I am gonna post the ones here I know about. Please feel free to post any ya find or wish to share

Feat

Crossbow Mastery (Combat)
You can load crossbows with blinding speed and even fire
them in melee with little fear of reprisal.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Reload,
Rapid Shot.
Benefit: The time required for you to reload any type of crossbow is reduced to a free action, regardless of the type of crossbow used. You can fire a crossbow as many times in a full attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow. Reloading a crossbow for the type of crossbow you chose when you took Rapid Reload no longer provokes attacks of opportunity.
Special: Starting at 6th level, a ranger with the archery
combat style may select Crossbow Mastery as a combat
style feat.

Archtype info

Monk of the Empty Hand :

- proficient with shuriken only
- considers all normal weapons as improvised weapons (except shuriken, I guess)
- FoB works with improvised weapons
- can spend ki points to deal his unarmed damage with an improvised weapon and later on to give his improvised weapon any enhancement bonus or magical weapon ability

pole fighter info{from ice Titan}
- The ability to short haft in return for bravery
- normal weapon training stuff, including weapon mastery-- notable because many other fighter archetypes lose it
- the ability to choose a square he threatens to flank from, including occupied squares-- a polearm master could be in a configuration like this:

ooooooo
X.O
..x

the o's are a wall, the x is a rogue and the polearm master is the small X. he chooses to flank from inside the wall and gets +2 to attacks
-the ability to five-foot step back as an immediate action when threatened creatures step adjacent to them
-the ability to give allies attacked in his threatened area +2 to AC and DR 5/- as an immediate action
-can trip or bullrush with any polearm at a -4... which you could already do anyways???

Phalanx fighter can wield any spear or polearm his size as a one-handed weapon when he uses a shield (so, halberd or longspear as a 1-handed weapon w/ a tower shield) and negates the attack penalty of his tower shield by 11th level. Also other bonuses, like CMD bonuses, evasion when wielding a shield, or readying against charges as an immediate action.

Archer fighters can grapple with arrows at level 11. Enough said.

TWF fighters get the ability to attack with both weapons as a standard and on opportunity attacks, and other goodies. Fairly good.

Two-handed fighters get the old Pathfinder beta feats, like Overhand Chop, Devastating Blow and Backswing, in new forms. Really good.

Weapon masters are like the Sword & Fist variant in that they're the master of critical hits. Can add +1 to their multiplier as an immediate action x/day and gets a +4 to DCs of effects caused by critical hits.

New ranger combat styles

Crossbow
Mounted combat
Natural weapon
Two-handed weapon
Weapon and shield

Someone posted this as well

Sweeping Fend (Ex): At 13th level, a polearm master
can use any spear or pole arm to make a bull rush or trip
maneuver, though he takes a –4 penalty to his CMB when
making such attempts. Weapons with the trip property
do not incur this penalty on trip maneuvers. This ability
replaces weapon training 3.

Sovereign Court

Feeed me mooooar infoooo!


also for the caviler

Knight’s Challenge (Ex): At 15th level, the cavalier can make a knight’s challenge once per day. This functions like a normal challenge, but the cavalier adds his Charisma bonus on all attack rolls and damage roles made against the target of his challenge. In addition, he receives a +4 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made to confirm critical hits against the target of his knight’s challenge.


O.O

Melee options! GIMME!

Damn you, amazon preorder!

Shadow Lodge

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Archer fighters can grapple with arrows at level 11. Enough said.

TWF fighters get the ability to attack with both weapons as a standard and on opportunity attacks, and other goodies. Fairly good.

Two-handed fighters get the old Pathfinder beta feats, like Overhand Chop, Devastating Blow and Backswing, in new forms. Really good

0.o

YAY!

The Exchange

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Someone posted this as well

Sweeping Fend (Ex): At 13th level, a polearm master
can use any spear or pole arm to make a bull rush or trip
maneuver, though he takes a –4 penalty to his CMB when
making such attempts. Weapons with the trip property
do not incur this penalty on trip maneuvers. This ability
replaces weapon training 3.

Also, Short-haft is back:

Pole Fighting (Ex): At 2nd level, as an immediate action, a polearm master can shorten the grip on his spear or polearm with reach and use it against adjacent targets. This action results in a –4 penalty on attack rolls with that weapon until he spends another immediate action to return
to the normal grip. The penalty is reduced by –1 for every four levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces bravery.


Best thread EVER! :)


Salavates over the phalanx of fighter options.


Thank ya for adding to the thread for us that do not have the book yet.


can someone tell me if there is swashbuckler archtype in it?

Liberty's Edge

Tre Peezy wrote:
can someone tell me if there is swashbuckler archtype in it?

Yes, it's a Rogue archetype. Kind of a fighter-acrobat thing going on.

The Exchange

The Shielded Fighter gets one of my favorite goodies:

Quote:

Shield Fighter (Ex): At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains

a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a
shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels
beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded fighter
may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for
each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks
or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.
This
ability replaces weapon training 1.

It makes a good weapon+shield bash character possible without the TWF tree...

However:

Quote:

Bashing Finish (Combat)

You follow a powerful blow from your weapon with an
opportunistic bash from your shield.
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Master,
Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit with a melee
weapon, you can make a shield bash attack against the
same target using the same bonus as a free action.

Building on the TWF tree gives good options as well.

Not to mention the new Weapon/Shield Ranger combat style.

Damn you Paizo for making multiple versions of my Sword & Board Fighter possible.

*Shakes fist in frustration...


Wolfthulhu wrote:

The Shielded Fighter gets one of my favorite goodies:

Quote:

Shield Fighter (Ex): At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains

a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a
shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels
beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded fighter
may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for
each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks
or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.
This
ability replaces weapon training 1.

It makes a good weapon+shield bash character possible without the TWF tree...

However:

Quote:

Bashing Finish (Combat)

You follow a powerful blow from your weapon with an
opportunistic bash from your shield.
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Master,
Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit with a melee
weapon, you can make a shield bash attack against the
same target using the same bonus as a free action.

Building on the TWF tree gives good options as well.

Not to mention the new Weapon/Shield Ranger combat style.

Damn you Paizo for making multiple versions of my Sword & Board Fighter possible.

*Shakes fist in frustration...

meh.. more of the critical hit stuff, they really go overboard on weapons with high crit ranges. Kinda useless having those feats with an axe or a hammer.


Wolfthulhu wrote:

Short-haft is back:

Pole Fighting (Ex): At 2nd level, as an immediate action, a polearm master can shorten the grip on his spear or polearm with reach and use it against adjacent targets. This action results in a –4 penalty on attack rolls with that weapon until he spends another immediate action to return
to the normal grip. The penalty is reduced by –1 for every four levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces bravery.

Is that shrinking penalty -1 for every four (Polearm) Fighter levels as it would seem, or is that character level? Just checking... I´m probably OK either way :-)

...Anybody know what the new Rage Powers, Rage-linked Feats, and Alt Class Features for Barbarians are?


Remco Sommeling wrote:


meh.. more of the critical hit stuff, they really go overboard on weapons with high crit ranges. Kinda useless having those feats with an axe or a hammer.

Maybe allow more critical hit feats to be applied for weapons with higher multipliers?

The Exchange

Remco Sommeling wrote:
meh.. more of the critical hit stuff, they really go overboard on weapons with high crit ranges. Kinda useless having those feats with an axe or a hammer.

Good thing my build doesn't use an axe or a hammer then isn't it?

The Exchange

Quandary wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:

Short-haft is back:

Pole Fighting (Ex): At 2nd level, as an immediate action, a polearm master can shorten the grip on his spear or polearm with reach and use it against adjacent targets. This action results in a –4 penalty on attack rolls with that weapon until he spends another immediate action to return
to the normal grip. The penalty is reduced by –1 for every four levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces bravery.

Is that shrinking penalty -1 for every four (Polearm) Fighter levels as it would seem, or is that character level? Just checking... I´m probably OK either way :-)

It doesn't say, but I would assume it is Fighter levels.


Wolfthulhu wrote:

The Shielded Fighter gets one of my favorite goodies:

Quote:

Shield Fighter (Ex): At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains

a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a
shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels
beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded fighter
may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for
each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks
or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.
This
ability replaces weapon training 1.

That's VERY powerful... but the bolded part was already possible in my book.


Quandary wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:

Short-haft is back:

Pole Fighting (Ex): At 2nd level, as an immediate action, a polearm master can shorten the grip on his spear or polearm with reach and use it against adjacent targets. This action results in a –4 penalty on attack rolls with that weapon until he spends another immediate action to return
to the normal grip. The penalty is reduced by –1 for every four levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces bravery.

Is that shrinking penalty -1 for every four (Polearm) Fighter levels as it would seem, or is that character level? Just checking... I´m probably OK either way :-)

As always, class features use class level unless they state otherwise.

The Exchange

Quandary wrote:
...Anybody know what the new Rage Powers, Rage-linked Feats, and Alt Class Features for Barbarians are?

3 and a half pages of Rage Powers, but I have yet to play a PF Barbarian, so I don't know how they compare.

Maybe someone else...


Kortz wrote:
Tre Peezy wrote:
can someone tell me if there is swashbuckler archtype in it?
Yes, it's a Rogue archetype. Kind of a fighter-acrobat thing going on.

yes! finally i get to be a swashbuckler in pathfinder


Remco Sommeling wrote:


meh.. more of the critical hit stuff, they really go overboard on weapons with high crit ranges. Kinda useless having those feats with an axe or a hammer.

I agree with Remco there, too much stuff for the high thread weapons, too little love for the bulky weapons, me no likey.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Xum wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:

The Shielded Fighter gets one of my favorite goodies:

Quote:

Shield Fighter (Ex): At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains

a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a
shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels
beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded fighter
may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for
each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks
or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.
This
ability replaces weapon training 1.
That's VERY powerful... but the bolded part was already possible in my book.

Per RAW, I think you are correct, that the bolded part is already possible. I wonder if it's supposed to imply the shield fighter doesn't lose his shield bonus though when doing it (normally, if you use your shield to make a sheild bash, you lose your shield ac).

Shadow Lodge

Some of the new options down past Combat Reflexes are looking mighty interesting.

Combat Patrol (Combat) is a new feat requiring Combat Reflexes, Mobility and BAB+5

Benefit: As a full-round action, you may set up a combat patrol, increasing your threatened area by 5 feet for every 5 points of your base attack bonus. Until the beginning of your next turn, you may make attacks of opportunity against any opponent in this threatened area that provokes attacks of opportunity. You may move as part of these attacks, provided your total movement before your next turn does not exceed your speed. Any movement you make provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.

There's other goodies too for readying actions to interrupt spellcasting (i.e. the DC for the check goes up by +4 if someone has the feat).

The Exchange

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
mdt wrote:
Xum wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:

The Shielded Fighter gets one of my favorite goodies:

Quote:

Shield Fighter (Ex): At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains

a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a
shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels
beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded fighter
may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for
each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks
or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.
This
ability replaces weapon training 1.
That's VERY powerful... but the bolded part was already possible in my book.
Per RAW, I think you are correct, that the bolded part is already possible. I wonder if it's supposed to imply the shield fighter doesn't lose his shield bonus though when doing it (normally, if you use your shield to make a sheild bash, you lose your shield ac).

Can you quote me that? I'm pretty sure you choose to attack or shield bash, unless you have TWF. Or at best take the non-prof TWF penalties of 'No way I'm gonna hit, why bother?'.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
mdt wrote:
Xum wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:

The Shielded Fighter gets one of my favorite goodies:

Quote:

Shield Fighter (Ex): At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains

a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a
shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels
beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded fighter
may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for
each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks
or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.
This
ability replaces weapon training 1.
That's VERY powerful... but the bolded part was already possible in my book.
Per RAW, I think you are correct, that the bolded part is already possible. I wonder if it's supposed to imply the shield fighter doesn't lose his shield bonus though when doing it (normally, if you use your shield to make a sheild bash, you lose your shield ac).

That would be a kinda odd way of readying it, but I do see your point... not sure though. Maybe it was put there for simplicity... not sure.

But it does raise the question. What if a non shield fighter tries to do this? Then what?

The Exchange

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Xum wrote:
mdt wrote:
Xum wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:

The Shielded Fighter gets one of my favorite goodies:

Quote:

Shield Fighter (Ex): At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains

a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a
shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels
beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded fighter
may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for
each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks
or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.
This
ability replaces weapon training 1.
That's VERY powerful... but the bolded part was already possible in my book.
Per RAW, I think you are correct, that the bolded part is already possible. I wonder if it's supposed to imply the shield fighter doesn't lose his shield bonus though when doing it (normally, if you use your shield to make a sheild bash, you lose your shield ac).

That would be a kinda odd way of readying it, but I do see your point... not sure though. Maybe it was put there for simplicity... not sure.

But it does raise the question. What if a non shield fighter tries to do this? Then what?

Then he's two weapon fighting, would be my guess.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Wolfthulhu wrote:
mdt wrote:
Xum wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:

The Shielded Fighter gets one of my favorite goodies:

Quote:

Shield Fighter (Ex): At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains

a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a
shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels
beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded fighter
may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for
each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks
or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.
This
ability replaces weapon training 1.
That's VERY powerful... but the bolded part was already possible in my book.
Per RAW, I think you are correct, that the bolded part is already possible. I wonder if it's supposed to imply the shield fighter doesn't lose his shield bonus though when doing it (normally, if you use your shield to make a sheild bash, you lose your shield ac).
Can you quote me that? I'm pretty sure you choose to attack or shield bash, unless you have TWF. Or at best take the non-prof TWF penalties of 'No way I'm gonna hit, why bother?'.

It is been said time and again that you can attack with whatever weapons you have without penalty, as long as they are iterative attacks. There has been tons of discussions about this, specially regarding armor spikes and 2 handed weapons and stuff like that.


Any love for Dex based fighters in the book?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Wolfthulhu wrote:
Can you quote me that? I'm pretty sure you choose to attack or shield bash, unless you have TWF. Or at best take the non-prof TWF penalties of 'No way I'm gonna hit, why bother?'.
PRD wrote:


Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See “shield, heavy” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Just says you can use it to bash as an off-hand weapon. Treat it as a one-handed weapon.

Having re-read it, I see where the advantage is. The shield fighter can do so without treating it as an off-hand weapon, he can do so treating it as a one-handed weapon.

So, non-shield fighter : Attack Main Hand weapon, Attack shield as off hand, attack main (assuming he had 3 attacks)

Shield fighter : Attack main hand weapon, attack shield as if it were main hand weapon, attack main (again, assumign 3 attacks)


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Xum wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:
mdt wrote:
Xum wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:

The Shielded Fighter gets one of my favorite goodies:

Quote:

Shield Fighter (Ex): At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains

a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a
shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels
beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded fighter
may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for
each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks
or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.
This
ability replaces weapon training 1.
That's VERY powerful... but the bolded part was already possible in my book.
Per RAW, I think you are correct, that the bolded part is already possible. I wonder if it's supposed to imply the shield fighter doesn't lose his shield bonus though when doing it (normally, if you use your shield to make a sheild bash, you lose your shield ac).
Can you quote me that? I'm pretty sure you choose to attack or shield bash, unless you have TWF. Or at best take the non-prof TWF penalties of 'No way I'm gonna hit, why bother?'.
It is been said time and again that you can attack with whatever weapons you have without penalty, as long as they are iterative attacks. There has been tons of discussions about this, specially regarding armor spikes and 2 handed weapons and stuff like that.

I am pretty sure it will not inflict an AC penalty if used this way, there wouldn't be much of a point doing it otherwise, the ability is far from devastating.

Liberty's Edge

Without spoiling the whole thing, I'll tell you one thing I was (ever so mildly) sadfaced about: the beast master ranger.

One of the features he gets (again, without spoiling the whole thing) removes the "as druid level, but -3 levels" aspect of having an animal companion, but this doesn't happen until 12th level. I was really hoping for an option to completely eliminate spellcasting for the beast master, which I felt (and maybe I'm off base) would have been a fair trade for just eliminating that -3 altogether at 5th level, where Joe Ranger gets his spellcasting.

As it is, it's cool and everything (there are a few more perks which I'll let simmer), but it wasn't the "complete focus on animal companion" sort of thing I was hoping to see. So, take that for what it's worth, I suppose.

Scarab Sages

Tre Peezy wrote:
yes! finally i get to be a swashbuckler in pathfinder

More Swashbuckler Spoiler:

Martial Training (Ex): At 1st level, the swashbuckler may select one martial weapon to add to her list of weapon proficiencies. In addition, she may take the combat trick rogue talent up to two times. This ability replaces trapfinding.

Another ability replaces trap sense with a level-based morale bonus to Acrobatics and saving throw vs fear. The rest of it is lists of Rogue Talents that complement a swashbuckling rogue character :)

The Exchange

Xum wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:
mdt wrote:
Xum wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:

The Shielded Fighter gets one of my favorite goodies:

Quote:

Shield Fighter (Ex): At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains

a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a
shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels
beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded fighter
may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for
each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks
or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.
This
ability replaces weapon training 1.
That's VERY powerful... but the bolded part was already possible in my book.
Per RAW, I think you are correct, that the bolded part is already possible. I wonder if it's supposed to imply the shield fighter doesn't lose his shield bonus though when doing it (normally, if you use your shield to make a sheild bash, you lose your shield ac).
Can you quote me that? I'm pretty sure you choose to attack or shield bash, unless you have TWF. Or at best take the non-prof TWF penalties of 'No way I'm gonna hit, why bother?'.
It is been said time and again that you can attack with whatever weapons you have without penalty, as long as they are iterative attacks. There has been tons of discussions about this, specially regarding armor spikes and 2 handed weapons and stuff like that.

Time and again by whom? I'm sorry, but for me the logic doesn't flow. "I'm fighting with two weapons, but since I'm not Two Weapon Fighting I can do it with no penalties." As far as I know the only class that can do that is the Monk and it's a very specific Class feature.

The Exchange

mdt wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:
Can you quote me that? I'm pretty sure you choose to attack or shield bash, unless you have TWF. Or at best take the non-prof TWF penalties of 'No way I'm gonna hit, why bother?'.
PRD wrote:


Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See “shield, heavy” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Just says you can use it to bash as an off-hand weapon. Treat it as a one-handed weapon.

Having re-read it, I see where the advantage is. The shield fighter can do so without treating it as an off-hand weapon, he can do so treating it as a one-handed weapon.

So, non-shield fighter : Attack Main Hand weapon, Attack shield as off hand, attack main (assuming he had 3 attacks)

Shield fighter : Attack main hand weapon, attack shield as if it were main hand weapon, attack main (again, assumign 3 attacks)

Now, that makes sense. Thanks mdt.

Liberty's Edge

Wolfthulhu wrote:
Time and again by whom? I'm sorry, but for me the logic doesn't flow. "I'm fighting with two weapons, but since I'm not Two Weapon Fighting I can do it with no penalties." As far as I know the only class that can do that is the Monk and it's a very specific Class feature.

It's a legacy feature of the 3.X system that iterative attacks can be made with any weapon you have on hand (or could have on hand as a free action) as long as you take the iterative penalties.

So a guy wielding two longswords that has a BAB of 6 could make an attack with his right hand at +6 BAB and another at +1 BAB with his left hand, or both with his right, or both with his left, but needs two-weapon fighting (and the penalties associated) to do more attacks than that.
A guy with a longsword could do one attack with it at +6 BAB, drop it, quickdraw another weapon, then attack with that at +1 BAB if they really wanted to.

I don't believe this is stated in the PRD directly, but barring any official clarification to the contrary this is how I'm running it and how most will run it (since one often defaults to 3.5 rules when things are unclear).


Wolfthulhu wrote:
Xum wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:
mdt wrote:
Xum wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:

The Shielded Fighter gets one of my favorite goodies:

Quote:

Shield Fighter (Ex): At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains

a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a
shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels
beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded fighter
may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for
each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks
or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.
This
ability replaces weapon training 1.
That's VERY powerful... but the bolded part was already possible in my book.
Per RAW, I think you are correct, that the bolded part is already possible. I wonder if it's supposed to imply the shield fighter doesn't lose his shield bonus though when doing it (normally, if you use your shield to make a sheild bash, you lose your shield ac).
Can you quote me that? I'm pretty sure you choose to attack or shield bash, unless you have TWF. Or at best take the non-prof TWF penalties of 'No way I'm gonna hit, why bother?'.
It is been said time and again that you can attack with whatever weapons you have without penalty, as long as they are iterative attacks. There has been tons of discussions about this, specially regarding armor spikes and 2 handed weapons and stuff like that.
Time and again by whom? I'm sorry, but for me the logic doesn't flow. "I'm fighting with two weapons, but since I'm not Two Weapon Fighting I can do it with no penalties." As far as I know the only class that can do that is the Monk and it's a very specific Class feature.

Actually is not a class feature, it's about unnarmed strike. I'm talking about ITERATIVE attack, no extra attack is made. After the thing above about the off-hand, I understand. But, bear in mind that a quick draw dude can use his 4 iterative attacks at 16th level to attack each time with a weapon, and BIG weapons if he like.

I assumed, as most, that the off-hand penalty is aplied only if you are fighting with 2 weapons, and that's not the case in this feature. You are fighting with one at a time, so to speak.


StabbittyDoom wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:
Time and again by whom? I'm sorry, but for me the logic doesn't flow. "I'm fighting with two weapons, but since I'm not Two Weapon Fighting I can do it with no penalties." As far as I know the only class that can do that is the Monk and it's a very specific Class feature.

It's a legacy feature of the 3.X system that iterative attacks can be made with any weapon you have on hand (or could have on hand as a free action) as long as you take the iterative penalties.

So a guy wielding two longswords that has a BAB of 6 could make an attack with his right hand at +6 BAB and another at +1 BAB with his left hand, or both with his right, or both with his left, but needs two-weapon fighting (and the penalties associated) to do more attacks than that.
A guy with a longsword could do one attack with it at +6 BAB, drop it, quickdraw another weapon, then attack with that at +1 BAB if they really wanted to.

I don't believe this is stated in the PRD directly, but barring any official clarification to the contrary this is how I'm running it and how most will run it (since one often defaults to 3.5 rules when things are unclear).

THAT's what I meant.

Shadow Lodge

mdt wrote:

Just says you can use it to bash as an off-hand weapon. Treat it as a one-handed weapon.

Having re-read it, I see where the advantage is. The shield fighter can do so without treating it as an off-hand weapon, he can do so treating it as a one-handed weapon.

So, non-shield fighter : Attack Main Hand weapon, Attack shield as off hand, attack main (assuming he had 3 attacks)

Shield fighter : Attack main hand weapon, attack shield as if it were main hand weapon, attack main (again, assumign 3 attacks)

Hmm... why exactly would you spend a feat to do this?

Is there some advantage to shield bashing someone once per round I'm missing? Maybe using it to push an enemy in the middle of a full round attack?

The Exchange

StabbittyDoom wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:
Time and again by whom? I'm sorry, but for me the logic doesn't flow. "I'm fighting with two weapons, but since I'm not Two Weapon Fighting I can do it with no penalties." As far as I know the only class that can do that is the Monk and it's a very specific Class feature.

It's a legacy feature of the 3.X system that iterative attacks can be made with any weapon you have on hand (or could have on hand as a free action) as long as you take the iterative penalties.

So a guy wielding two longswords that has a BAB of 6 could make an attack with his right hand at +6 BAB and another at +1 BAB with his left hand, or both with his right, or both with his left, but needs two-weapon fighting (and the penalties associated) to do more attacks than that.
A guy with a longsword could do one attack with it at +6 BAB, drop it, quickdraw another weapon, then attack with that at +1 BAB if they really wanted to.

I don't believe this is stated in the PRD directly, but barring any official clarification to the contrary this is how I'm running it and how most will run it (since one often defaults to 3.5 rules when things are unclear).

See, I don't think that's a legacy feature, so much as a legacy rules manipulation.

But I'm not going to argue my point further, that's not what this thread is for.

The Exchange

0gre wrote:
mdt wrote:

Just says you can use it to bash as an off-hand weapon. Treat it as a one-handed weapon.

Having re-read it, I see where the advantage is. The shield fighter can do so without treating it as an off-hand weapon, he can do so treating it as a one-handed weapon.

So, non-shield fighter : Attack Main Hand weapon, Attack shield as off hand, attack main (assuming he had 3 attacks)

Shield fighter : Attack main hand weapon, attack shield as if it were main hand weapon, attack main (again, assumign 3 attacks)

Hmm... why exactly would you spend a feat to do this?

Is there some advantage to shield bashing someone once per round I'm missing? Maybe using it to push an enemy in the middle of a full round attack?

It's not a feat, it's a Class feature for the variant Fighter.

Although I have a Fighter build with only the first tier of TWF to do exactly that. *Hack Slash Hack... Bash.

Used to push the enemy into a flank or into difficult terrain etc.

The Exchange

I like the Shaman Druids too:

Quote:

Totem Transformation (Su): At 2nd level, a bear shaman

may adopt an aspect of the bear while retaining her normal
form. She gains one of the following bonuses: movement
(+10 enhancement bonus to land speed, +4 racial bonus on
Swim checks), senses (low-light vision, scent), toughness
(+2 natural armor bonus to AC, Endurance feat), or
natural weapons (bite [1d6] and 2 claws [1d4] for a Medium
shaman, +2 to CMB on grapple checks). While using totem
transformation, the bear shaman may speak normally and
can cast speak with animals (mammals only) at will. Using
this ability is a standard action at 2nd level, a move action at
7th level, and a swift action at 12th level. The bear shaman can
use this ability for a number of minutes per day equal to her
druid level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive,
but they must be used in 1-minute increments. This is a
polymorph effect and cannot be used while the druid is
using another polymorph effect, such as wild shape.


A poweful one at that. Ignoring the bolded part we discussed. A guy could have +7 to attack and damage with his shield, without adding any feats or enhancements, that's REALLY powerful.

Liberty's Edge

Wolfthulhu wrote:

See, I don't think that's a legacy feature, so much as a legacy rules manipulation.

But I'm not going to argue my point further, that's not what this thread is for.

We'll see if you think of this the same way if you get disarmed/sundered by an AoO you triggered mid-full-attack and are disallowed from attacking with a weapon you just quick-drew as a replacement. (Specific, I know, but it can happen.)

This isn't the most staggering of "rules manipulations" (as you put it) as you cannot get more attacks from this, neither can you get more powerful attacks, all it lets you do is switch weapon if you find yourself without one or find that your current one is ineffective (i.e. steel vs DR/material, quickdraw a silver weapon to try that or slashing vs DR/bludgeoning).

The Exchange

Xum wrote:
A poweful one at that. Ignoring the bolded part we discussed. A guy could have +7 to attack and damage with his shield, without adding any feats or enhancements, that's REALLY powerful.

Yeah, you could actually have a better chance to hit with you shield than your actual weapon. And damage is gonna be close as well.

Liberty's Edge

This is why we can't have nice spoiler threads.


Wolfthulhu wrote:
Xum wrote:
A poweful one at that. Ignoring the bolded part we discussed. A guy could have +7 to attack and damage with his shield, without adding any feats or enhancements, that's REALLY powerful.
Yeah, you could actually have a better chance to hit with you shield than your actual weapon. And damage is gonna be close as well.

When u add shield mastery to that equation, things get really silly, and whatever you have in the other hand becomes kinda "useless" so to speak.

The Exchange

StabbittyDoom wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:

See, I don't think that's a legacy feature, so much as a legacy rules manipulation.

But I'm not going to argue my point further, that's not what this thread is for.

We'll see if you think of this the same way if you get disarmed/sundered by an AoO you triggered mid-full-attack and are disallowed from attacking with a weapon you just quick-drew as a replacement. (Specific, I know, but it can happen.)

This isn't the most staggering of "rules manipulations" (as you put it) as you cannot get more attacks from this, neither can you get more powerful attacks, all it lets you do is switch weapon if you find yourself without one or find that your current one is ineffective (i.e. steel vs DR/material, quickdraw a silver weapon to try that or slashing vs DR/bludgeoning).

See, the difference is I'm ok with PCs (even my own) actually being at a disadvantage occasionally. You step back, shake it off and get back in the fight.

Shadow Lodge

JoelF847 wrote:
Can't you do this anyway - alternating between different weapons with a full attack?

You normally take a penalty for attacking with an offhand weapon regardless of whether it's party of a TWF attack or not.


Not to just be a pain but whats going on for Paladins ... not the anti paladin stuff but more alternate abilities ect. Thanks :D

Maybe Half orc racials :D

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