Compiled APG spoiler thread


Product Discussion

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Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Zurai wrote:
Actually, I don't understand. The book is OGL, which means permission is automatically granted to reprint anything in it except specific exclusions (setting specific info like names of deities and so on), and the people posting here have gotten the material legally. Also, if it's going to be Society legal at GenCon, it needs to be available in some form to non-subscribers before the con.

Zurai, you are absolutely correct. This material is Open Content and technically there is nothing I can do to stop folks from posting content early. However, the early pdfs are a perk for subscribers and I am just a little concerned about all the leakage.

I know there is a learning curve with this, especially for society play, but that is not my primary concern here. Let me get some feedback from the rest of the staff. Answers to come soon.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Somehow I don't think the subscribers will manage to reproduce the entirety of a 320 page rulebook here before the 4th. <shrug> I'll shut up, though.


Do Summoners get higher level Summoner spells and do they get spells that let them totally reconfigure their eidolons?


Gorbacz wrote:
Yeah, but print distributors and LGS owners are probably not entirely happy while reading this thread.

As if this thread is hurting their sales? Please. I already bought my book and this just makes me want it even more. Best advertising ever. Keep that crunch coming, I say!


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

There are some interesting combinations you can do with multiple archetypes for the monk:

Drunken Master of the Four Sacred Mountains (3 archetypes)
Ki Mystic of the Four Sacred Mountains (3 archetypes)
Empty Handed Monk of the Four Sacred Mountains (3 archetypes)
Empty Handed Weapon Adept (Shuriken only) (2 archetypes)
Drunken Weapon Adept (2 archetypes)
Drunken Monk of the Lotus (2 archetypes)

Note, however, that you cannot combine the Zen Archer with any of the others because it modifies too much of the core class to legally blend with any of the other monk archetypes.


Gorbacz wrote:
Yeah, but print distributors and LGS owners are probably not entirely happy while reading this thread.

Why not? I doubt that anyone would not buy the book because this information is available online. I also am extremely doubtfull that releasing a PDF will have any negative effect on FLGS sales of the hardcover book. It is not like players will not want the hardcopy (I personally don't know any players who only use PDF.......). I think is more likely to be a good advert rather than a reason not to buy.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

For the Ranger archetypes, the Skirmisher can combine with any of the others as it is the only one to sacrifice spellcasting for various "tricks" that are actually pretty cool. None of the other Ranger archetypes modify spellcasting.

I like the idea of a Shapeshifting Skirmisher Guide Ranger

Sovereign Court

I don't want to know what they actually DO, I just want a list of what sorcerer bloodlines were added.

Same with Paladin substitutions, I don't need to know how they work, but knowing what they can sub would be cool.

What I do think would be awesome would be telling us what changed with the new base classes.

What's new between the old oracle and the new oracle, did curses get fixed or do they still stifle multi-class oracles?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Imagine that you run a store. Subscriptions and free PDFs are bad enough to draw ppl away from you AND then stuff from a nice hardcover book gets posted online en masse 2 weeks before the street date. No fun.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Hi there everybody,

I have discussed this issue with people around the office and here is the deal.

The early pdfs are a perk for subscribers and we would prefer that the reposting of large sections of the text hold off until the books release. Now, that said, these pdfs were acquired legally and the OGL allows you to repost as much as you want, but we would like to ask kindly that you did not copy and paste large portions of the rules.

I am really very excited about all the enthusiasm here and I do not want to trample that. We are all very pleased with the excitement and anticipation that everyone has for the book (me most of all.. it has been a long labor). So, feel free to talk about what is in the book, answer questions, paraphrase bits to explain a point, but try to avoid posting large pieces of text directly. There is no hard and fast rule here, but I can tell you that posting all the rules content of the antipaladin is probably not a great idea, but summarizing what smite good can do is just fine.

We are not going to lock or remove anything from this thread, what is out is out. If anybody wants to discuss this further, please move it to a new thread. Lets save this one for the continued discussion about what is in the book.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


ty Ashanderai useful info , Lastknight the bloodline list have been posted a few times now


Even though I do not have the PDF and such I am totally cool with that can can respect that Jason

Just make sure your servers do not die on the 4th ok :)


No crunch for a week makes Ambrus something something... =(

*sigh*

So could someone please paraphrase the gnome's alternate racial abilities?

Dark Archive

So... how about those racial favored class benefits, eh?

It looks like all spontaneous casters are now humans! : P

Also, the some of the variant racial features are incredibly good.

Gnomes being able to gain proficiency with ANY and ALL weapons that they make themselves? Wow.

Scarab Sages

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
The early pdfs are a perk for subscribers and we would prefer that the reposting of large sections of the text hold off until the books release. Now, that said, these pdfs were acquired legally and the OGL allows you to repost as much as you want, but we would like to ask kindly that you did not copy and paste large portions of the rules.

Thanks for the clarification, Jason. Let the summarizing ... begin!


Carpy DM wrote:


Battle herald: bard/cavalier multiclass.

What are the requirements for the Battle Herald PrC? Can a Bard/Paladin qualify?


Can someone answer two questions for me about the Extra Revelations feat without reposting it?

1) Can you take it more than once
2) is there a minimum level requirement

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hey guys I was wondering if someone could post up whether the oracle still gets all of the cure or inflict spells free as well as the list of bonus spells the life mystery grants (I don't need spell description yet)

EDIt: What Varthanna said =D


In fact, could somebody just briefly tell us what they changed about the Oracle since the playtest?

(Third time's a charm...)

Dark Archive

Arkadwyn wrote:
Carpy DM wrote:


Battle herald: bard/cavalier multiclass.
What are the requirements for the Battle Herald PrC? Can a Bard/Paladin qualify?

No. Not unless you're a bard/paladin/cavalier, anyway. The PrC requires the Challenge ability.

Interestingly (and unfortunately), I can see no way to wear medium armor when playing this class (despite the artwork depicting a fairly heavily-armored character). If you want to keep your bard spells, you're wearing light armor.

Other than that, fairly great support PrC that allows for some extremely versatile on-the-fly party buffing.

Not the most powerful PrC in the book, but it's incredibly hard to compete with the Rage Prophet, Master Spy, and Vindicator (three of the most powerful PrCs I've seen in awhile).

Sovereign Court

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hi there everybody,

I have discussed this issue with people around the office and here is the deal.

The early pdfs are a perk for subscribers and we would prefer that the reposting of large sections of the text hold off until the books release. Now, that said, these pdfs were acquired legally and the OGL allows you to repost as much as you want, but we would like to ask kindly that you did not copy and paste large portions of the rules.

I am really very excited about all the enthusiasm here and I do not want to trample that. We are all very pleased with the excitement and anticipation that everyone has for the book (me most of all.. it has been a long labor). So, feel free to talk about what is in the book, answer questions, paraphrase bits to explain a point, but try to avoid posting large pieces of text directly. There is no hard and fast rule here, but I can tell you that posting all the rules content of the antipaladin is probably not a great idea, but summarizing what smite good can do is just fine.

We are not going to lock or remove anything from this thread, what is out is out. If anybody wants to discuss this further, please move it to a new thread. Lets save this one for the continued discussion about what is in the book.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Very reasonable. Understood.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hi there everybody,

I have discussed this issue with people around the office and here is the deal.

The early pdfs are a perk for subscribers and we would prefer that the reposting of large sections of the text hold off until the books release. Now, that said, these pdfs were acquired legally and the OGL allows you to repost as much as you want, but we would like to ask kindly that you did not copy and paste large portions of the rules.

I am really very excited about all the enthusiasm here and I do not want to trample that. We are all very pleased with the excitement and anticipation that everyone has for the book (me most of all.. it has been a long labor). So, feel free to talk about what is in the book, answer questions, paraphrase bits to explain a point, but try to avoid posting large pieces of text directly. There is no hard and fast rule here, but I can tell you that posting all the rules content of the antipaladin is probably not a great idea, but summarizing what smite good can do is just fine.

We are not going to lock or remove anything from this thread, what is out is out. If anybody wants to discuss this further, please move it to a new thread. Lets save this one for the continued discussion about what is in the book.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Jason I sometimes think people don't appreciate enough how generous you guys are. Thank you.

Dark Archive

xevious573 wrote:

Hey guys I was wondering if someone could post up whether the oracle still gets all of the cure or inflict spells free as well as the list of bonus spells the life mystery grants (I don't need spell description yet)

EDIt: What Varthanna said =D

I do not have access to my PDF just this second, but I gave the oracle a once-over and did not see any major changes.

Yes, the oracle gains all the cures or inflicts.

No, there is no level requirement for Extra Revelations (and yes, I think you can take it more than once).

No, there were no "new" mysteries.

The Exchange

Ashanderai wrote:

There are some interesting combinations you can do with multiple archetypes for the monk:

Drunken Master of the Four Sacred Mountains (3 archetypes)
Ki Mystic of the Four Sacred Mountains (3 archetypes)
Empty Handed Monk of the Four Sacred Mountains (3 archetypes)
Empty Handed Weapon Adept (Shuriken only) (2 archetypes)
Drunken Weapon Adept (2 archetypes)
Drunken Monk of the Lotus (2 archetypes)

The monk stuff is my favorite part of the book. My character is going to be a Ki Mystic Weapon Adept.


Aaron Scott 139 wrote:
Jason I sometimes think people don't appreciate enough how generous you guys are. Thank you.

Actually, I think that most everyone's willingness to abide by a request that they're not legally obliged to conveys quite nicely the respect we have for the Paizo staff and all they've done for us. So kudos all around.


Garden Tool wrote:
Gnomes being able to gain proficiency with ANY and ALL weapons that they make themselves? Wow.

Eh? What's that? I assume it's only with that specific weapon and NOT with one like that they pick up somewhere.

Is that a replacement racial ability or a class substitution?


Garden Tool wrote:


Interestingly (and unfortunately), I can see no way to wear medium armor when playing this class (despite the artwork depicting a fairly heavily-armored character). If you want to keep your bard spells, you're wearing light armor.

Standard bard ability are not limited by armor. Only spells , which have ASF past light. Ad much of that can be gotten around with feats or armor or spell selection.

Dark Archive

QOShea wrote:
Garden Tool wrote:
Gnomes being able to gain proficiency with ANY and ALL weapons that they make themselves? Wow.

Eh? What's that? I assume it's only with that specific weapon and NOT with one like that they pick up somewhere.

Is that a replacement racial ability or a class substitution?

It's an alternate racial ability. I forget what you give up for it - I think you give up your bonuses vs "creature types x, y, and z", but I'm not sure.

And yes, you gain proficiency with any SPECIFIC weapon that you create, but not with other weapons of the same type that you find or buy. So your bard or sorcerer could have a net, a double-crossbow (a new weapon from the Equipment chapter), a greatsword... whatever you want, as long as you made it yourself.

There's no limit to how many proficiencies you can gain with the ability, you just have to make the weapons yourself.


I'm not expecting or asking for a copy and paste but could anyone tell me if there are any bardic performance feats that boosts bardic performance, let them linger, or if there is a feat that boost or replaces Inspire greatness?
Please? ;-)


Ambrus wrote:
Aaron Scott 139 wrote:
Jason I sometimes think people don't appreciate enough how generous you guys are. Thank you.
Actually, I think that most everyone's willingness to abide by a request that they're not legally obliged to conveys quite nicely the respect we have for the Paizo staff and all they've done for us.

I guess I'm more referring to my own personal experiences more than anything else. I'm usually a lurker in here and like to read various threads from time to time and it seems to me Jason and other Paizo staffers really go out of their way to interact with their fan base. Just thought I'd share the love. :)


If any body wants to take the time, can we get a summery of the Ki Mystic's abilities?
P.S. Thankyou all who have been sharing this information, we know you don't have to. :-)

Dark Archive

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Garden Tool wrote:


Interestingly (and unfortunately), I can see no way to wear medium armor when playing this class (despite the artwork depicting a fairly heavily-armored character). If you want to keep your bard spells, you're wearing light armor.

Standard bard ability are not limited by armor. Only spells , which have ASF past light. Ad much of that can be gotten around with feats or armor or spell selection.

Bards get FULL arcane spell failure from medium and heavy, so even Arcane Armor Mastery won't make wearing heavy armor a viable option. A couple of the substandard medium armors have a 20% spell failure chance, so those could be made viable if you didn't mind running around a bit unoptimized, as far as AC goes.

If you were willing to put the cash into it and didn't mind losing your swift actions to cast, you could probably get by on mithril armor and the Arcane Armor Training/Mastery feats.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Garden Tool wrote:


Interestingly (and unfortunately), I can see no way to wear medium armor when playing this class (despite the artwork depicting a fairly heavily-armored character). If you want to keep your bard spells, you're wearing light armor.

Standard bard ability are not limited by armor. Only spells , which have ASF past light.

Correct. Since you only need 1 level of bard to qualify, and since the PrC does not advance your spellcasting ability, you could certainly just take Bard1 and choose out-of-combat spells like, say identify and detect secret doors for your spells, and when you need to use em, pop off the ol' full plate and go to town.

Also, you are completely able to use wands and such while armored up.

If, on the other hand, you want to use your bard spells more than incidentally, then just stick to light armor.

Dark Archive

Kierato wrote:

If any body wants to take the time, can we get a summery of the Ki Mystic's abilities?

P.S. Thankyou all who have been sharing this information, we know you don't have to. :-)

The Ki Mystic traded Stunning Fist for a "number of uses per day equal to monk level" touch attack that tranquilizes and pacifies hostile targets who fail a save. His other abilities are all pretty similar in spirit - geared towards defusing violence and "giving peace a chance".

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Garden Tool wrote:

Posted this on the Product Discussion, but it probably belongs here.

The PrCs in this book are AMAZING. Very powerful (with the exception of the extremely 'meh' Horizon Walker).

Here's the low-down on a couple of my favorites:

The Master Spy
** spoiler omitted **

The Rage Prophet
** spoiler omitted **...

Actually, the add CON bonus to spell DC power comes at 7th level, not 1st.

Dark Archive

Zark wrote:

I'm not expecting or asking for a copy and paste but could anyone tell me if there are any bardic performance feats that boosts bardic performance, let them linger, or if there is a feat that boost or replaces Inspire greatness?

Please? ;-)

1.) Yes, there are mechanics that allow bardic performances to linger.

2.) Yes, at least one of the variants allows you to replace inspire greatness.

Dark Archive

Jason Nelson wrote:
Garden Tool wrote:

Posted this on the Product Discussion, but it probably belongs here.

The PrCs in this book are AMAZING. Very powerful (with the exception of the extremely 'meh' Horizon Walker).

Here's the low-down on a couple of my favorites:

The Master Spy
** spoiler omitted **

The Rage Prophet
** spoiler omitted **...

Actually, the add CON bonus to spell DC power comes at 7th level, not 1st.

Does it? That's too bad. Still incredible, though, and the class is literally bristling with abilities.

Dark Archive

Aaron Scott 139 wrote:
Do Summoners get higher level Summoner spells and do they get spells that let them totally reconfigure their eidolons?

The Summoner appears just as it did in the playtest version. However, to mount an eidolon, it needs to be one size larger and take the 1 point mount evolution.

As far as spells go, there is a spell that reconfigures your eidolon. There are a few spells that add evolution points to it, as well.

As far as feat support goes...there really isn't any. Eidolon still take a minute to summon. The only feat specifically for the summoner is called Summoner's Call, which grants the Eidolon either a +2 str or con or dex, for ten minutes after it is summoned. Rather crappy.


I'm still hoping to hear something about the gnomes' alternate racial traits and am getting sick of hearing myself beg. Will someone please put me out of my misery?

Dark Archive

I'd like to say - overall, I think the barbarian made out like a bandit. Compared to the rest of the base classes, he's like the kid at Christmas that all the other kids are just a little jealous of. The kid who got everything he wanted.

A BUNCH of new rage powers, and LOTS of them are very supernatural and totemic.

He got a mounted variant that gets a toned-down animal companion that can (with the right build) share his rage AND his rage powers with him, plus gains magic natural weapons, big DR, and can trample and overrun (cretures of its own size category, no less).

Also, anyone seen Fiend Totem yet? A five-foot aura that sickens and tears good creatures apart with phantasmal slashing damage. Stack that with the Spirit Totem tree of powers, which grants a protective aura of angry spirits (concealment vs. ranged) that attacks all your enemies within 15 feet for free.

There's also a rage power that simply ignores ALL HARDNESS for a round (usable once per rage only). Pair that with the Breaker archetype, and you have taken sundering to never-before-seen levels. The power is even available at first level. You can snap adamantine spears in half at first level... once per rage. : P


Ambrus wrote:
I'm still hoping to hear something about the gnomes' alternate racial traits and am getting sick of hearing myself beg. Will someone please put me out of my misery?

There was the one with the profiency with weapons they can make themselves......


Jared Ouimette wrote:
Aaron Scott 139 wrote:
Do Summoners get higher level Summoner spells and do they get spells that let them totally reconfigure their eidolons?

The Summoner appears just as it did in the playtest version. However, to mount an eidolon, it needs to be one size larger and take the 1 point mount evolution.

As far as spells go, there is a spell that reconfigures your eidolon. There are a few spells that add evolution points to it, as well.

As far as feat support goes...there really isn't any. Eidolon still take a minute to summon. The only feat specifically for the summoner is called Summoner's Call, which grants the Eidolon either a +2 str or con or dex, for ten minutes after it is summoned. Rather crappy.

Thanks for answering the questions. Are there specific magic items for Summoners?

Dark Archive

Ambrus wrote:
I'm still hoping to hear something about the gnomes' alternate racial traits and am getting sick of hearing myself beg. Will someone please put me out of my misery?

I'm kind of limited in that I have to work from memory (PDF is on my laptop at home), but there was one variant ability that allowed a gnome to become proficient with ANY and ALL weapons that he personally crafted. To be honest, that one was so good that I can't even remember the others.

There were also several feats that added additional cantrips and first-level spells to a gnome's list of spell-like abilities.


Garden Tool wrote:
Kierato wrote:

If any body wants to take the time, can we get a summery of the Ki Mystic's abilities?

P.S. Thankyou all who have been sharing this information, we know you don't have to. :-)
The Ki Mystic traded Stunning Fist for a "number of uses per day equal to monk level" touch attack that tranquilizes and pacifies hostile targets who fail a save. His other abilities are all pretty similar in spirit - geared towards defusing violence and "giving peace a chance".

that sounds really similar to what I've heard about the lotus monk, how do these two differentiate themselves?


Berhagen wrote:
There was the one with the profiency with weapons they can make themselves......

Alright, something more... =P

I read a mention of a trickster and a pyromania gnome and the bit about proficiency with crafted weapons. It isn't clear if these are all alternate racial abilities, what the first two do and if there are any others however...

I'd appreciate anything else others could share, oh so much.


Garden Tool wrote:
I'd like to say - overall, I think the barbarian made out like a bandit. Compared to the rest of the base classes, he's like the kid at Christmas that all the other kids are just a little jealous of. The kid who got everything he wanted.

That's honestly a good thing, because he was the sadface kid (along with the monk) in the core rulebook.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Garden Tool wrote:
Kierato wrote:

If any body wants to take the time, can we get a summery of the Ki Mystic's abilities?

P.S. Thankyou all who have been sharing this information, we know you don't have to. :-)
The Ki Mystic traded Stunning Fist for a "number of uses per day equal to monk level" touch attack that tranquilizes and pacifies hostile targets who fail a save. His other abilities are all pretty similar in spirit - geared towards defusing violence and "giving peace a chance".

Umm... No, it doesn't. I think you are confusing Ki Mystic with Monk of the Lotus.

The Ki Mystic replaces still mind to gain his ki pool a level earlier with extra points added to the formulae to figure out your ki pool as well as adding bonuses to your knowledge checks as long as you have at least 1 point of ki in your pool.

He gains Mystic Insight at the expense of purity of body, which allows him to grant an ally the ability to reroll an attack roll or saving throw.

At 11th level, he gains Mystic Visions in exchange for diamond body. It basically grants him the divination spell as a supernatural ability.

He gains Mystic Prescience at 13th level, which gives him an insight bonus to AC and CMD that increases at 20th level. It replaces diamond soul.

He gets Mystic Persistence by losing empty body. With this, he can create an aura with his ki that lets him and his allies make two rolls for every attack roll or saving throw made for that round. The aura can be extended by expending more ki.

Liberty's Edge

Jared Ouimette wrote:
As far as feat support goes...there really isn't any. Eidolon still take a minute to summon. The only feat specifically for the summoner is called Summoner's Call, which grants the Eidolon either a +2 str or con or dex, for ten minutes after it is summoned. Rather crappy.

Disappointed :(

Oh well, at least we got new Summoner Spells :)


Garden Tool wrote:

I'd like to say - overall, I think the barbarian made out like a bandit. Compared to the rest of the base classes, he's like the kid at Christmas that all the other kids are just a little jealous of. The kid who got everything he wanted.

A BUNCH of new rage powers, and LOTS of them are very supernatural and totemic.

He got a mounted variant that gets a toned-down animal companion that can (with the right build) share his rage AND his rage powers with him, plus gains magic natural weapons, big DR, and can trample and overrun (cretures of its own size category, no less).

Also, anyone seen Fiend Totem yet? A five-foot aura that sickens and tears good creatures apart with phantasmal slashing damage. Stack that with the Spirit Totem tree of powers, which grants a protective aura of angry spirits (concealment vs. ranged) that attacks all your enemies within 15 feet for free.

There's also a rage power that simply ignores ALL HARDNESS for a round (usable once per rage only). Pair that with the Breaker archetype, and you have taken sundering to never-before-seen levels. The power is even available at first level. You can [/i]snap adamantine spears in half at first level[/i]... once per rage. : P

This is a really good thing. The barbarian had less toys than the other full-bab classes (rather the toys they had weren't as good as the others') and this seems to put everyone on equal footing.

The monk, who also needed goodies, seems to be getting nice things too, even if it is getting much less than the barabarian.

I'm glade the full casters stuff seems much less than the warriors.

edit: ninja'd by Zurai

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