Have I discovered a new route to immortality?


Rules Questions

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Any GM that takes a valuable resource that the player has INVESTED IN with the expectation of it being an advantage (a feat and a class ability in this case) and uses it to totally screw the player over by making it anything but an advantage will quickly run out of players willing to play with him (or get punched in the face).

Unless everyone else at the table thinks it's REALLY funny. :P


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
And I still say that if you come up with some legal conundrum which they can't answer, they should break down with smoke coming out their ears or at least turn themselves in to their home plain for repairs and upgrades.

A marut's job is not to answer your legal questions. The legality has already been decided. They are the executioners. You don't get a stay of execution by chatting up the guy flipping the switch on the electric chair, and you don't get a stay of execution by chatting up an inevitable.


LazarX wrote:

And Imps are imps... unlike pseudodragons obeying thier master is a secondary priority at best. That's the price you pay for thier relatively greater power and utility.

Agreed, I recall the wising mp all to well to ever trust any imp with holding my soul, And yes the GM has every damned right to overrule your actions if your actions are outside of what an NPC would do.

And while you do control the imp as a player he only serves your pc as long as his true master wishes it. Not a minute longer.

So yes the GM may{and I would} take your soul off to hell all gift wrapped with a bow even.


Zurai wrote:


A marut's job is not to answer your legal questions. The legality has already been decided. They are the executioners. You don't get a stay of execution by chatting up the guy flipping the switch on the electric chair, and you don't get a stay of execution by chatting up an inevitable.

Totally agree here, You might as well try to argue with the axe removing your head for all the good it will do you.


I could see Maruts getting involved if your body-hopping caused major disruption in the fates - stealing the body of someone fated to do X, and you get that body killed or otherwise stop it happening when you should be dead, that could cause problems.

I think the clone idea is a better one to use, myself.

Scarab Sages

I figure that if you *were* able to come up with something the Marut couldn't answer, that's more a gm issue than the creature itself. I'd leave it repeating the same phrase any time you asked it something it couldn't answer - while continuing to pummel the crap out of you :P


Zurai wrote:
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
And I still say that if you come up with some legal conundrum which they can't answer, they should break down with smoke coming out their ears or at least turn themselves in to their home plain for repairs and upgrades.
A marut's job is not to answer your legal questions. The legality has already been decided. They are the executioners. You don't get a stay of execution by chatting up the guy flipping the switch on the electric chair, and you don't get a stay of execution by chatting up an inevitable.

Ok…Maruts are something we have not used in any of our 3.5 campaigns.

Who or what exactly makes them judge, jury and executioner on who can and cannot be immortal?


Maruts are creatures that enforce the laws of the universe. If you start breaking those laws in a really big way, then they come after you, big time. Whether this method would be regarded as breaking those laws to a huge extent or whether it would slide 'under the radar' is another matter for the DM to decide.

Liberty's Edge

Dabbler wrote:
Maruts are creatures that enforce the laws of the universe. If you start breaking those laws in a really big way, then they come after you, big time. Whether this method would be regarded as breaking those laws to a huge extent or whether it would slide 'under the radar' is another matter for the DM to decide.

They're a particular type of Inevitables, Lawful Neutral extra-planar Intelligent Constructs. They're tasked with enforcing the 'laws' of the Multiverse. I see them as enforcers, they're basically Police, not attorneys. They don't care if you're guilty or not, they're there to serve the warrant.


Hobbun wrote:

Who or what exactly makes them judge, jury and executioner on who can and cannot be immortal?

Inevitables (such as maruts, as well as kolyaruts, zelekhuts, and all the others) are the Lawful Neutral exemplars. They're the LN equivalent to demons (CE exemplars), eladrin (CG exemplars), devils (LE exemplars), etc. Each alignment has a type of outsider that exemplifies that alignment. Inevitables are created on the plane of Mechanus, which is an infinitely huge machine that keeps track of every single law in existence (including natural laws like gravity) for every single plane. Inevitables enforce those laws.

So, your answer in a nutshell: the universe does.

I don't have a hard copy of the Golarion planar handbook, so I can't say offhand how they handle the source and guidance for inevitables.


Zurai wrote:
Hobbun wrote:

Who or what exactly makes them judge, jury and executioner on who can and cannot be immortal?

Inevitables (such as maruts, as well as kolyaruts, zelekhuts, and all the others) are the Lawful Neutral exemplars. They're the LN equivalent to demons (CE exemplars), eladrin (CG exemplars), devils (LE exemplars), etc. Each alignment has a type of outsider that exemplifies that alignment. Inevitables are created on the plane of Mechanus, which is an infinitely huge machine that keeps track of every single law in existence (including natural laws like gravity) for every single plane. Inevitables enforce those laws.

So, your answer in a nutshell: the universe does.

I don't have a hard copy of the Golarion planar handbook, so I can't say offhand how they handle the source and guidance for inevitables.

Ah, I see, thanks.

To be honest, I wouldn’t consider one PC’s change over to immortality (through a potentially shaky method) to shake the foundation of the universe.

And if Maruts stepped in for this, they would destroying any sort of creature that turned itself into a Lich.


In golarion the plan of Axis and the axiomites who live there seem to make them.

From the great beyond

Unlike the other two native races, the inevitables are constructs rather than outsiders, and were created in order to fulfill distinct and supremely important roles. Mass-produced in enormous factories, the soulless inevitables patrol the streets of Axis, defend its portals and outer walls, act as agents of Law across the planes, and most importantly make war upon the forces of chaos, primarily the Maelstrom and the Abyss.


Hobbun wrote:

To be honest, I wouldn’t consider one PC’s change over to immortality (through a potentially shaky method) to shake the foundation of the universe.

And if Maruts stepped in for this, they would destroying any sort of creature that turned itself into a Lich.

They hunt lichs as well. So yeah it falls in the same group. Why do you think there are so few lichs?


What book is this in?

I didn’t even know there was a Planar Handbook. For Golarian or otherwise.

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Hobbun wrote:

To be honest, I wouldn’t consider one PC’s change over to immortality (through a potentially shaky method) to shake the foundation of the universe.

And if Maruts stepped in for this, they would destroying any sort of creature that turned itself into a Lich.

They hunt lichs as well. So yeah it falls in the same group. Why do you think there are so few lichs?

Ok, this must be a Golarian specific thing then, with the Maruts. I thought originally it was something that I missed, but now I know why I was not aware of them.


Sorry, double post.

Liberty's Edge

Somewhat more to the the OP's topic. When it comes to 'trusting an imp,' you need to remember that like a pseudodragon, imps aren't some wild creature that you make a bit smarter to serve you. They are free-willed creatures that have chosen to 'serve' you. The feat is the mechanical cost a player pays get the improved familiar.


The great beyond. Although that book does not explain the types , but Maruts do indeed hunt lichs, to me this explains why there are so few, after all the call of never dying does call strongly. So the ones left are the ones who keep killing the Maruts sent for them.

You can find the book here it was written by Planscape nut Todd Stewart. Good stuff.


Hobbun wrote:

Ah, I see, thanks.

To be honest, I wouldn’t consider one PC’s change over to immortality (through a potentially shaky method) to shake the foundation of the universe.

And if Maruts stepped in for this, they would destroying any sort of creature that turned itself into a Lich.

They do actually hunt liches (the 3.5 writeup specifically says this, actually). They hunt any mortal that attempts immortality, although simply being resurrected a few times is the Marut equivalent of jaywalking or stealing a weekday newspaper. They're specialized in fighting spellcasters, since it's generally only through magic that a mortal can attempt immortality. Dispel magic at will, at will teleportation, lots of fort save abilities, etc.

It's not that a mortal trying for immortality "shakes the foundation of the universe", it's that it's breaking universal laws. Murder doesn't shake the foundation of our universe, either, but you still get executed for it (in some states/countries, anyway).

Liberty's Edge

Hobbun wrote:
Ok, this must be a Golarian specific thing then, with the Maruts. I thought originally it was something that I missed, but now I know why I was not aware of them.

The armies from Axis is from a Golarion book, but Inevitables and Maruts weren't created by Paizo. I first remember Inevitables in either 3rd edition Fiend Folio or Monster Manual II and back then they were enforcers of certain universal laws. I assume they've probably been around since 1st or 2nd edition in one form or another.


Kierato wrote:
I would suggest using a homunculus to carry the Item.

Or build it into the middle of an Iron Golem...or inside your Staff, part of a floating Palanquin...made of Adamantine..

Contributor

Zurai wrote:
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
And I still say that if you come up with some legal conundrum which they can't answer, they should break down with smoke coming out their ears or at least turn themselves in to their home plain for repairs and upgrades.
A marut's job is not to answer your legal questions. The legality has already been decided. They are the executioners. You don't get a stay of execution by chatting up the guy flipping the switch on the electric chair, and you don't get a stay of execution by chatting up an inevitable.

So they're termininators is what you're saying. Fine. But that begs the question of why they have +6 Diplomacy if they don't use it and +10 Knowledge Religion if they don't use that either.

Having a marut out to kill the lich Sarah Connor methodically killing every Sarah Connor in the city until it finds the right one may work for some games, but frankly I think the embodiments of Law should be a bit more lawful.

The "Kill them all and let Pharasma sort them out" approach is likely to get Pharasma ticked off, especially since one would assume that She is the god in charge of sending out maruts for overdue souls.


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
So they're termininators is what you're saying. Fine. But that begs the question of why they have +6 Diplomacy if they don't use it and +10 Knowledge Religion if they don't use that either.

If you'd actually read the description of inevitables and maruts in the Monster Manual, you'd find that you're totally off-base here. Maruts gather information on their targets, seek allies against powerful spellcasters, and so on. They aren't mindless automatons; they're enforcers of universal laws. Having a couple ranks in Diplomacy doesn't mean you're free to metagame your way out of breakin universal laws.

Here's an example quote:

SRD wrote:
Once it has found its target, a marut brings it the death it has been trying to avoid. Those who defile death through necromancy may instead receive a geas and/or mark of justice to enforce proper respect.

Dark Archive

yeah, the diplomacy is because they gather info, talk to people and ask where you are, find out info about you, ect.

if anything it could be to talk to other group members of yours and give the "leave me to my mission lest thee suffer the same fate" speech

and yes 1 immortal pc does make a huge difference. Its called precedent. they use it in court. "well so-and-so did x and didnt get punished so neither should my client", so its kill'em all or kill none in a sense. Letting 1 live is playing favorites and such.

Thats why most immortal pc's are no longer adventuring, they are hiding from these things or protected by gods or other higher powers


It is also possible the Marut may wish to investigate the character's extension of life - are they actually seeking to sidestep the laws, or are they just deferring them a short period? ie, are they seeking out immortality or just an extended lifespan?


stealing other folks bodies pretty much is past mere life extension. Oh I hope those made it into the Beastriy 2, I always loved them so.


Name Violation wrote:

yeah, the diplomacy is because they gather info, talk to people and ask where you are, find out info about you, ect.

if anything it could be to talk to other group members of yours and give the "leave me to my mission lest thee suffer the same fate" speech

and yes 1 immortal pc does make a huge difference. Its called precedent. they use it in court. "well so-and-so did x and didnt get punished so neither should my client", so its kill'em all or kill none in a sense. Letting 1 live is playing favorites and such.

Thats why most immortal pc's are no longer adventuring, they are hiding from these things or protected by gods or other higher powers

Since PCs cannot be subject to Diplomacy, I'm pretty sure it's for gathering intel.

Also, I'm curious. If these constructs must annihilate every single immortal and inordinately long-lived player character, why does the elan exist as a PC race? Are DMs supposed to smoosh poor newmade psions under massive brass fists?


RD, just have Hama follow in the footsteps of Durvin Gest and find the fountain of youth. Problem solved! Except that she will forever be a withered old hag, of course.


Nyarai wrote:
Also, I'm curious. If these constructs must annihilate every single immortal and inordinately long-lived player character, why does the elan exist as a PC race? Are DMs supposed to smoosh poor newmade psions under massive brass fists?

Maruts pursue those who violate the sanctity of the grave. Naturally immortal races don't trip their triggers. I'm not familiar with elans in general (never used psionics much), but they don't, as a race, violate natural laws to become immortal, do they?

Also, while there's an essentially infinite number of maruts, there are also an essentially infinite number of necromancers and mortals who fear death enough to try to become immortal. They have to prioritize their time. That's why resurrection doesn't normally cause a marut stampede, unless it's being done for the hundredth or so time on the same person.


Zurai wrote:
Maruts pursue those who violate the sanctity of the grave. Naturally immortal races don't trip their triggers. I'm not familiar with elans in general (never used psionics much), but they don't, as a race, violate natural laws to become immortal, do they?

Elans are humans that undergo a ritual transformation. Basically, they get imbued with psionic energy that allows them to rebuild tissues that would otherwise break down, keeping them eternally youthful and without a maximum age (they still get aging penalties every few centuries). They're also classified as aberrations in the XPH, so in my opinion, yes, they violate many natural laws.

{Also, I was mostly trying to provide a counterpoint to "All immortal PCs must be systematically exterminated" statement that NV was making. I love elans! My psion is one, but don't tell my party because they have no idea. ;P }

Dark Archive

naturally immortal races are a different subject. thats part of their natural order. they aren't cheating death. (elans just got that fluff about once bein human. if thats true, wheres their bonus feat and skill point?)

going out of your way to spit in the face of death by cheating it and making yourself immortal is bound to piss people off


Who says they do not hunt down elans. They go out of the way to hide what they are, live in secret and are not a common race at all.


Zurai wrote:
Hobbun wrote:

Ah, I see, thanks.

To be honest, I wouldn’t consider one PC’s change over to immortality (through a potentially shaky method) to shake the foundation of the universe.

And if Maruts stepped in for this, they would destroying any sort of creature that turned itself into a Lich.

They do actually hunt liches (the 3.5 writeup specifically says this, actually). They hunt any mortal that attempts immortality, although simply being resurrected a few times is the Marut equivalent of jaywalking or stealing a weekday newspaper. They're specialized in fighting spellcasters, since it's generally only through magic that a mortal can attempt immortality. Dispel magic at will, at will teleportation, lots of fort save abilities, etc.

It's not that a mortal trying for immortality "shakes the foundation of the universe", it's that it's breaking universal laws. Murder doesn't shake the foundation of our universe, either, but you still get executed for it (in some states/countries, anyway).

Hmm, interesting. I have played D&D for many years and never heard of them before. I know our DM has never used them.

Can't say I am a fan of the inclusion of them. Seems if the DM is hardfast in following those rules in sending the Maruts after mortals trying to become immortals 'illegally' it can really take away from potential adventures for PC's. How many times have we gone after Liches, Death Knights or other undead? And although there is a lot of undead that become that way unwillingly, a lot of those instances can be done willingly, as well.

"Please bite me Mr. Vampire, I think I like the idea of your powers, including immortality."

Also, and I am not sure how these "universal laws in preventing immortality" is set up, so I could be missing something here, but really, why is this needed? Why is it so important trying to prevent a magic-user, who may have been powerful in his life, become immortal? Why have this "universal law" for it? If they want to govern something, why not do something that is a little more important. Like maybe keeping the Glazberu (or greater creatures) from invading the prime material plane. Or putting that Tarasque back to sleep.

You say it doesn't have to "shake the foundation of the universe", but if they are extra-planar (which it sounds like they are), why are they meddling with something this minor?

Sorry, didn't mean to derail so much, but this extra-planar policing system for keeping mortals becoming immortal (incorrectly) seems a bit unneeded.


Hobbun wrote:
Can't say I am a fan of the inclusion of them. Seems if the DM is hardfast in following those rules in sending the Maruts after mortals trying to become immortals 'illegally' it can really take away from potential adventures for PC's. How many times have we gone after Liches, Death Knights or other undead?

Maruts are CR 15. They're the SWAT team of the Inevitable arsenal. They're also working on the entire multiverse as their precinct. They do eventually get around to everyone who violates the sanctity of death, but small timers aren't high on the priority list. Simply being undead isn't enough to get an immediate response from a marut. Now, a multi-millenia-old lich who is obviously not going to die without some assistance, that's probably going to draw an investigation.

And why would you say it invalidates potential adventures? Why not have the marut approach the PCs as allies, or why not have the PCs enlist maruts as their allies? Maruts aren't required to operate alone, and they're quite smart enough to join up with others to take out hard targets.

Quote:
Also, and I am not sure how these "universal laws in preventing immortality" is set up, so I could be missing something here, but really, why is this needed? Why is it so important trying to prevent a magic-user, who may have been powerful in his life, become immortal? Why have this "universal law" for it?

You're clearly not looking at this from a planar perspective. The entire planar structure, including the deities themselves, rely on souls to function. Mortals that become immortal take their soul out of circulation, and creatures that raise the dead as undead (which is the other thing maruts punish) damage or destroy those souls. If nothing punished these actions, there would be a serious decrease in the flow of souls to the planes, which would destabilize the power structure of the entire universe. To paraphrase Paul Atreides, the souls must flow.

Quote:
If they want to govern something, why not do something that is a little more important. Like maybe keeping the Glazberu (or greater creatures) from invading the prime material plane. Or putting that Tarasque back to sleep.

I believe there actually is an Inevitable for maintaining the sanctity of the prime material plane, that hunts both demons and angels that interfere too much in mortal affairs. It's not in the SRD, though. And anyway, you're missing the point. It's a universal law, just like gravity: mortals die, then their souls pass into the outer planes. I'm not saying it's a law as in "don't go faster than 70 miles per hour on the highway", I'm saying it's a law like "all actions have an equal and opposite reaction". If those laws (and there are way more than just "all mortals die, and their souls pass into the outer planes", and an Inevitable for each) get violated too often and too egregiously, the entire multiverse could cease to exist.

Quote:
You say it doesn't have to "shake the foundation of the universe", but if they are extra-planar (which it sounds like they are), why are they meddling with something this minor?

The once per minute leak in your kitchen faucet may not shake the foundation of your house, but when every single faucet in New York City drips once a minute, you're talking about incredibly massive amounts of water being used up every day. Same principle with maruts.

------

Basically, think of Inevitables as ultra-specialized white blood cells for the multiverse. Each type of Inevitable is a different type of white blood cell that only targets one or two very specific problems in the multiverse.

Dark Archive

Hobbun wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Hobbun wrote:

Ah, I see, thanks.

To be honest, I wouldn’t consider one PC’s change over to immortality (through a potentially shaky method) to shake the foundation of the universe.

And if Maruts stepped in for this, they would destroying any sort of creature that turned itself into a Lich.

They do actually hunt liches (the 3.5 writeup specifically says this, actually). They hunt any mortal that attempts immortality, although simply being resurrected a few times is the Marut equivalent of jaywalking or stealing a weekday newspaper. They're specialized in fighting spellcasters, since it's generally only through magic that a mortal can attempt immortality. Dispel magic at will, at will teleportation, lots of fort save abilities, etc.

It's not that a mortal trying for immortality "shakes the foundation of the universe", it's that it's breaking universal laws. Murder doesn't shake the foundation of our universe, either, but you still get executed for it (in some states/countries, anyway).

Hmm, interesting. I have played D&D for many years and never heard of them before. I know our DM has never used them.

Can't say I am a fan of the inclusion of them. Seems if the DM is hardfast in following those rules in sending the Maruts after mortals trying to become immortals 'illegally' it can really take away from potential adventures for PC's. How many times have we gone after Liches, Death Knights or other undead? And although there is a lot of undead that become that way unwillingly, a lot of those instances can be done willingly, as well.

"Please bite me Mr. Vampire, I think I like the idea of your powers, including immortality."

Also, and I am not sure how these "universal laws in preventing immortality" is set up, so I could be missing something here, but really, why is this needed? Why is it so important trying to prevent a magic-user, who may have been powerful in his life, become immortal? Why have this "universal law" for it? If they want...

it opens up just as many options as it stops.

maybe the group is contacted by the lich to protect him from the marut, then double crosses the group after they fight it.

it also depends on how under the radar you fly. a cursed prisoner who never ages and has been chained to a wall in an antimagic field for centuries isnt picking up any attention as opposed to if it was out planar hopping or running a muck in civilizations. they aren't looking for you unless you've left the kind of reputation a PC makes during their career

but pc's are supposed to be the more powerful than normal people type. PC's are the main characters, not the cannon fodder.

Maybe the maruts have an office on another plane and you can file an extension on your lifespan with the proper permits :P
They could put a gem in your hand and when your times up it changes color and they hunt you


Name Violation wrote:
it also depends on how under the radar you fly. a cursed prisoner who never ages and has been chained to a wall in an antimagic field for centuries isnt picking up any attention as opposed to if it was out planar hopping or running a muck in civilizations. they aren't looking for you unless you've left the kind of reputation a PC makes during their career

Yep, this is important to note as well. Inevitables aren't omniscient. They don't have portfolios like deities that allow them to know any time something related to their portfolio happens. They have to do legwork just like a mortal investigator does (except that they have air walk, dimension door, locate creature and true seeing at will, naturally). If you lay low enough, it's quite possible you'll die of something other than a marut attack.


Zurai wrote:

Maruts are CR 15. They're the SWAT team of the Inevitable arsenal. They're also working on the entire multiverse as their precinct. They do eventually get around to everyone who violates the sanctity of death, but small timers aren't high on the priority list. Simply being undead isn't enough to get an immediate response from a marut. Now, a multi-millenia-old lich who is obviously not going to die without some assistance, that's probably going to draw an investigation.

And why would you say it invalidates potential adventures? Why not have the marut approach the PCs as allies, or why not have the PCs enlist maruts as their allies? Maruts aren't required to operate alone, and they're quite smart enough to join up with others to take out hard targets.

Yes, very good point. Especially with you saying they necessarily do not go after the minor offenders at first. You'd still have the regular adventures (without the Marut(s)) and the big adventures with a Marut.

Zurai wrote:

You're clearly not looking at this from a planar perspective. The entire planar structure, including the deities themselves, rely on souls to function. Mortals that become immortal take their soul out of circulation, and creatures that raise the dead as undead (which is the other thing maruts punish) damage or destroy those souls. If nothing punished these actions, there would be a serious decrease in the flow of souls to the planes, which would destabilize the power structure of the entire universe. To paraphrase Paul Atreides, the souls must flow.

Ok, I see what you are saying. And that does make sense now. I was looking at a completely different perspective.

I think what I will need to do is pick up the Great Beyond book and take a look at it.

Liberty's Edge

Ravingdork wrote:


Two things:

1) Players play their familiars just as readily as druids/rangers/summoners play their animal companions/eidolons.

2) Any GM that takes a valuable resource that the player has INVESTED IN with the expectation of it being an advantage (a feat and a class ability in this case) and uses it to totally screw the player over by making it anything but an advantage will quickly run out of players willing to play with him (or get punched in the face).

It is certainly not the GM’s job to screw over players. If a player comes up with a good plan (for immortality or whatever else) that works within the rules of the game, it is not the GM’s job to set out to destroy this plan. On the other hand, the GM does not need to make things easy for the player, and if there are any obvious flaws in the plan the GM is free to choose whether or not to exploit them. I believe that if these flaws are something that the player could not have foreseen, but the character possibly could have, the GM should provide the player with fair warning.

A player should absolutely get a clear benefit from spending feats and choosing class abilities. By taking Improved Familiar and an Imp familiair, the player absolutely does get a benefit – namely, an improved familiar. And that familiar should act exactly true to its nature (as described in the rules, the imp’s entry in the Bestiary); “Willingly serving spellcasterss as familiars, imps play the role of dutiful servants, often granting their masters cunning advice and infernal insights. In truth though, an imp works to deliver souls to Hell, assuring that it’s master’s soul – and as many collateral souls as possible – faces damnation upon death.” The other important part of the imp’s descriptive text is this; “after they’ve been summoned to serve as familiars and their masters have perished (often indirectly due to the machinations of the imp itself).”

Now, any spellcaster with a couple of ranks in Knowledge (Planes) is likely to know this. If they don’t, or if they choose to trust their imp familiar with their soul despite knowing this, well, that’s on their head.

I believe the GM would be acting quite fairly within the rules to have the imp familiar ‘accidently’ let something happen to the soul within its care in this scenario – BUT, this is by no means automatically what the imp would do. The imp (GM) should weigh up what is more to its advantage, and to Hell’s advantage. On the one hand, the spellcaster in question almost certainly already has her soul damned to Hell, and seems to be trying to delay death indefinitely, so the imp may wish to speed the soul on its way to its rightful destination (and then the imp can be free to spread more evil on the Prime on its own). On the other hand, imps are devils and devils are patient. It’s unlikely at this point that the spellcaster will redeem herself, and although her death may be delayed, chances are she will die eventually, and eventually her soul will come to Hell. In the meantime, evil begets evil, and the imp may think that it has a better chance to corrupt and spread evil working with this spellcaster than on its own. So it is not a clear cut choice either way.

In the end, this should not be about screwing the player, but it should be about the GM interpreting the rules (in this case the rules on an imp’s nature) and acting accordingly. If the GM decides that in his / her game imp familiars are loyal servants who would not betray their masters, or that different rules apply to PCs and NPCs in this regard, or that a player ALWAYS makes every decision for a familiar, animal companion or cohort, no matter if it means acting outside their nature or best interest, and that has been communicated to the player, then there is no issue.

Ravingdork wrote:


The conniving imp that runs off with the caster's soul is what happens to foolish NPCs (usually to set up a story of some kind), or to PCs after their play time has ended and they've retired/died.

Well, you might argue that once the character has passed the age at which she should die (no matter what body she might be in), her play time has ended ...


Nyarai wrote:
Also, I'm curious. If these constructs must annihilate every single immortal and inordinately long-lived player character, why does the elan exist as a PC race? Are DMs supposed to smoosh poor newmade psions under massive brass fists?

Consider the differences between an Elan, a Vampire and a Lich.

The Elan extends his life by a considerable degree, but he does not become immortal - he can be killed by disease, accident, assassin etc. He is still a living being and very much part of the natural order in that respect, he can die and his soul then passes on to the Undiscovered Country in a form uncorrupted save by his own actions.

The Vampire has become undead, and while his soul is warped and corrupted, he can still be 'killed' - although with difficulty. While he is outside the natural order, he still relies on the living for his sustenance. When the vampire hunter finally catches up with him, his soul too goes on the Outer Planes.

A Lich has no connection with the living; by creating his phylactery he has placed his soul out of circulation: killing his body does not release his soul, it is held and then rejuvenates a new form for the lich. Pending the destruction of the phylactery the lich is forever outside the natural order. Of all three, he is the one who is closest to being truly immortal.

In short, from the Marut's point of view, the Elan bends the rules (he is still in the world of the living), the Vampire breaks them but they will likely catch up with him one day (he has a foot in both worlds), and the lich tears a hole in the rule book and spits on it (he has placed himself completely outside the natural order). So yes, the Inevitables would likely prioritise: Liches first, then very old vampires, then very ancient Elans. Younger vampires and Elans are beneath their notice, odds are on they will die eventually anyway.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Zurai wrote:


A marut's job is not to answer your legal questions. The legality has already been decided. They are the executioners. You don't get a stay of execution by chatting up the guy flipping the switch on the electric chair, and you don't get a stay of execution by chatting up an inevitable.

Totally agree here, You might as well try to argue with the axe removing your head for all the good it will do you.

I also agree with Shadow. Dude, that is like the 3rd time this year.

The thread is over if me and Shadow agree. Sorry Dork your PC might be in a lot of trouble. :)


wraithstrike wrote:


I also agree with Shadow. Dude, that is like the 3rd time this year.

The thread is over if me and Shadow agree. Sorry Dork your PC might be in a lot of trouble. :)

Dude it's worse then that for him. Me, you and Zurai all three agreed on it.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


I also agree with Shadow. Dude, that is like the 3rd time this year.

The thread is over if me and Shadow agree. Sorry Dork your PC might be in a lot of trouble. :)

Dude it's worse then that for him. Me, you and Zurai all three agreed on it.

Good point. I think his PC is already dead in that case. He is just in denial.


pretty much :)

Contributor

Zurai wrote:
You're clearly not looking at this from a planar perspective. The entire planar structure, including the deities themselves, rely on souls to function. Mortals that become immortal take their soul out of circulation, and creatures that raise the dead as undead (which is the other thing maruts punish) damage or destroy those souls. If nothing punished these actions, there would be a serious decrease in the flow of souls to the planes, which would destabilize the power structure of the entire universe. To paraphrase Paul Atreides, the souls must flow.

This honestly looks like a retcon to justify the maruts existence. There are plenty of gods of undeath who like the undead situation just peachy, and would argue quite credibly that the souls of undead are serving them exactly where they are, and yes, that includes the liches too.

In other words, while you may have a majority of the gods saying "The souls must flow!" there's a large and substantial minority who think "Undeath is the new black!" or however they phrase it.

In which case, at best you don't have the maruts as enforcers of universally agreed upon metaphysical laws but just being the bully boys of the majority party.

Becoming immortal? Alchemists do this routinely, though not until level 20, at which point a CR15 monster becomes mostly a nuisance. And as mentioned earlier, in Golarion there are approved methods of immortality, such as the Test of the Starstone.

Personally, looking at the maruts and at Golarion, if they're put anywhere, they're likely the servants of Pharasma and effectively truancy officers looking for souls that have missed their appointed hour with the Lady of Bones. Urgathoa is probably #1 on their most wanted list, complicated by the fact that she's now the goddess of undeath, but I'd be thinking that undead with the "create spawn" ability cause a much larger paperwork hassle than the occasional high level spellcaster who comes up with some new method of immortality, unless they're body hopping, in which case that's causing a great deal of unpleasant paperwork.


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
This honestly looks like a retcon to justify the maruts existence.

That would be difficult, because it's the official line since before Golarion existed.

Quote:
Becoming immortal? Alchemists do this routinely, though not until level 20, at which point a CR15 monster becomes mostly a nuisance.

They start at CR15. Assuming they gain CR 1-for-1 with HD (they start out at 15 HD, so that's a reasonable assumption), the biggest marut would be CR45. That's 15 higher than the demigod Achaekek, for the record.


Zurai wrote:


That would be difficult, because it's the official line since before Golarion existed.

It's been the official line before 3e existed.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Zurai wrote:


That would be difficult, because it's the official line since before Golarion existed.

It's been the official line before 3e existed.

Yeah, I didn't want to say that since I wasn't sure when they were created. I know Planescape was around in 2nd edition, and Inevitables are one of the alignment exemplars, but I wasn't sure they were the 2nd edition LN exemplars. My memories of AD&D Planescape are hazy, and Planescape: Torment didn't have any Inevitables.


I have the books still, I need to go take a look see. I do recall it had the story about him standing as a stature for hundreds of years just to get a prince as foretold. They were often the agents of gods if I recall.

Liberty's Edge

Maruts as a creature in the game predated Inevitables. Maruts were in Planescape (and may possibly have been around before) but I don’t think ‘Inevitables’ as a race were; Maruts were later retconned as a type of Inevitable.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
LazarX wrote:

And Imps are imps... unlike pseudodragons obeying thier master is a secondary priority at best. That's the price you pay for thier relatively greater power and utility.

Agreed, I recall the wising mp all to well to ever trust any imp with holding my soul, And yes the GM has every damned right to overrule your actions if your actions are outside of what an NPC would do.

And while you do control the imp as a player he only serves your pc as long as his true master wishes it. Not a minute longer.

So yes the GM may{and I would} take your soul off to hell all gift wrapped with a bow even.

+1

There are costs above and beyond the mechanical - i.e If I choose to play a Drow in a good-aligned human city based campaign, you can bet it's gonna cost me more than the +ECL...

Making deals with devils?

Bad.

(Who'd have thought? :D)

..

Why do people do it then?

For the power...

..

I'm being ripped off!

Evil doesn't play nice.

..

Imps are strong familiars but are also evil creatures from a realm of evil. Evil -- not to be trusted! Evil! Bad! Surely you thought this through before you decided to acquire one?

You game with an evil group -- do you trust them? o_o

''Ok Jimmy the Evil, from the Family of Evil Back Stabbers, brother of Fred 'I kill people for kicks', son of 'Steve 'Trust me and I kill you', I want you to stay here and gaurd my vast hoarde of power and gold while I sleep in the next room. You have the only key so keep it safe. While I'm rambling I'd like to remind you that tonight I will be mostly unconscious thanks to my new medication that your brought me and that was apparently made by your mother out of love and kindness.''

''Ok boss!''

''Excellent.. .and hmm.. mm.... ...ok, what is it? Why are you smiling?''

*shakes fist*

..and yes, people with good aligned/non-evil comrades/familiars/companions don't have to worry about this. They just have the constraints of being good/having to play nice.

Just because it's your familiar and you get to play it, doesn't mean it's a mindless robot. If I take an angry badger as a familiar and leave it alone in an orphanage you can betcha life my GM will insist on certain characterful traits manifesting in a violent, fur-frenzied, child maiming manner! :)

//

If you want to win as evil, get in with the good guys! :D

*shakes fist*


Agh! My first attack of the postmonster as a member of these boards! T_T

Zurai wrote:
Inevitables aren't omniscient. They don't have portfolios like deities that allow them to know any time something related to their portfolio happens. They have to do legwork just like a mortal investigator does (except that they have air walk, dimension door, locate creature and true seeing at will, naturally). If you lay low enough, it's quite possible you'll die of something other than a marut attack.

The idea of a bunch of inevitables running a modern-day police station or private eye's office makes me giggle.

Anyway, this is what 3.5 has to say.

Monster Manual wrote:
When an inevitable is created, it receives its first mission, then finds the transgressors and metes out appropriate punishment.

That to me says, "Someone higher up is telling the maruts who to strike down." Now whether that's the god of death (who would be omniscient) or some middle-management celestial, I haven't a clue. Either way, if I got kicked out of a factory with a transgressor's name and maybe a small description, I'm pretty sure that I could persuade a wizard/cleric to scry for me in a jiff. Granted, there are protections against that, but not all immortals will have them in place. Especially if the City of Brass is as ruthlessly efficient as I would expect them to be.

A shame there isn't more source material about the inevitables that might provide more insight about how they operate (ex. Will they strike while a transgressor is weak, how do they prioritize kills, etc).

{Incidentally, if these books exist and I'm just not aware of them, lemme know. ;P}

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