Have I discovered a new route to immortality?


Rules Questions

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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Please tell me if the following is rules legal or not. If not, please clearly explain why.

My sorceress, Hama, is near death due to her venerable age. I have devised a way to halt her aging while allowing her to continue adventuring.

First, Hama makes great use of the silent spell and still spell metamagic feats. Being a sorcerer, she also has eschew materials. She has a faithful consular imp familiar as well.

My idea was to use the magic jar spell to inhabit a powerful, youthful body. Repeated castings of magic jar would be used to extend the duration of this effect indefinitely. The imp familiar will carry the magic jar as an amulet.

While in her new body, Hama will then cast binding (minimus containment) upon herself (that is to say, her "old self") placing her body forever into the magic jar. Being a sorcerer, she will likely use a scroll or similar method of doing this.

Now, her aging is effectively halted and she (in her stronger, monstrous body) is free to adventure the world. She cannot be killed very easily. Destroying her false body sends her back to the magic jar (which the imp will either keep close by so she can possess a new body to continue the fight or, failing that, fly away while invisible to fight another day). You cannot destroy her true body as it is inside the magic jar/binding gem.

If you destroy the magic jar, both spell effects end and Hama is freed at full health and returned to her normal body (which can then be killed normally provided you can do it before she teleports to safety).

If you dispel the magic jar, Hama is then physically trapped, fully conscious in the former magic jar/binding gem (as binding cannot be dispelled). The imp will usually retreat at that point, or Hama will emerge to continue the fight in her mortal form since she set a trigger condition that allows her to escape the binding easily (such as saying a certain rare phrase aloud)--or else dispel it normally if she is the caster.

I developed this tactic as a means of staving off natural death until lichdom can be achieved. I am looking for holes that might prevent the trick from working. What do you think? If you see any holes, I would also appreciate help in plugging them up and making the trick work anyways.

EDIT: Alternatively, I could exclude the imp entirely and wear the amulet/magic jar/binding gem on my new body. An amulet is the hardest thing to destroy next to a ring, right?

Sovereign Court

Ravingdork wrote:
I developed this tactic as a means of staving off natural death until lichdom can be achieved. I am looking for holes that might prevent the trick from working. What do you think? If you see any holes, I would also appreciate help in plugging them up and making the trick work anyways.

Biggest hole- Leaving yourself at the mercy of an Imp...


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I developed this tactic as a means of staving off natural death until lichdom can be achieved. I am looking for holes that might prevent the trick from working. What do you think? If you see any holes, I would also appreciate help in plugging them up and making the trick work anyways.
Biggest hole- Leaving yourself at the mercy of an Imp...

The imp, being an immortal being, is more concerned about my soul than my life.

The longer Hama lives, learning the dark secrets of the fiends, the darker her soul gets. Upon obtaining lichdom she will be pretty much forever damned. That is the imp's goal.

In any case, the imp isn't necessary for the trick anyways. It's just a method of keeping the magic jar mobile.

Dark Archive

Ravingdork wrote:
Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I developed this tactic as a means of staving off natural death until lichdom can be achieved. I am looking for holes that might prevent the trick from working. What do you think? If you see any holes, I would also appreciate help in plugging them up and making the trick work anyways.
Biggest hole- Leaving yourself at the mercy of an Imp...

The imp, being an immortal being, is more concerned about my soul than my life.

The longer Hama lives, learning the dark secrets of the fiends, the darker her soul gets. Upon obtaining lichdom she will be pretty much forever damned. That is the imp's goal.

In any case, the imp isn't necessary for the trick anyways. It's just a method of keeping the magic jar mobile.

actually becoming a lich makes it harder to get your soul, since you still have it.

Shadow Lodge

Huh, the idea of a magic jar phylactery just popped into my head...


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Name Violation wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I developed this tactic as a means of staving off natural death until lichdom can be achieved. I am looking for holes that might prevent the trick from working. What do you think? If you see any holes, I would also appreciate help in plugging them up and making the trick work anyways.
Biggest hole- Leaving yourself at the mercy of an Imp...

The imp, being an immortal being, is more concerned about my soul than my life.

The longer Hama lives, learning the dark secrets of the fiends, the darker her soul gets. Upon obtaining lichdom she will be pretty much forever damned. That is the imp's goal.

In any case, the imp isn't necessary for the trick anyways. It's just a method of keeping the magic jar mobile.

actually becoming a lich makes it harder to get your soul, since you still have it.

Yeah, but can you think of a better way to totally corrupt it? I don't think immortal beings are too concerned about WHEN they get a soul so much as whether or not they DO get the soul.

Dark Archive

Ravingdork wrote:
Name Violation wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I developed this tactic as a means of staving off natural death until lichdom can be achieved. I am looking for holes that might prevent the trick from working. What do you think? If you see any holes, I would also appreciate help in plugging them up and making the trick work anyways.
Biggest hole- Leaving yourself at the mercy of an Imp...

The imp, being an immortal being, is more concerned about my soul than my life.

The longer Hama lives, learning the dark secrets of the fiends, the darker her soul gets. Upon obtaining lichdom she will be pretty much forever damned. That is the imp's goal.

In any case, the imp isn't necessary for the trick anyways. It's just a method of keeping the magic jar mobile.

actually becoming a lich makes it harder to get your soul, since you still have it.
Yeah, but can you think of a better way to totally corrupt it? I don't think immortal beings are too concerned about WHEN they get a soul so much as whether or not they DO get the soul.

but immortality means they'll never get to claim it. its like when a friend dies and owes you 10 bucks, you realize you're never gonna get the money


Ravingdork wrote:

Please tell me if the following is rules legal or not. If not, please clearly explain why.

My sorceress, Hama, is near death due to her venerable age. I have devised a way to halt her aging while allowing her to continue adventuring.

First, Hama makes great use of the silent spell and still spell metamagic feats. Being a sorcerer, she also has eschew materials. She has a faithful consular imp familiar as well.

My idea was to use the magic jar spell to inhabit a powerful, youthful body. Repeated castings of magic jar would be used to extend the duration of this effect indefinitely. The imp familiar will carry the magic jar as an amulet.

While in her new body, Hama will then cast binding (minimus containment) upon herself (that is to say, her "old self") placing her body forever into the magic jar. Being a sorcerer, she will likely use a scroll or similar method of doing this.

Now, her aging is effectively halted and she (in her stronger, monstrous body) is free to adventure the world. She cannot be killed very easily. Destroying her false body sends her back to the magic jar (which the imp will either keep close by so she can possess a new body to continue the fight or, failing that, fly away while invisible to fight another day). You cannot destroy her true body as it is inside the magic jar/binding gem.

If you destroy the magic jar, both spell effects end and Hama is freed at full health and returned to her normal body (which can then be killed normally provided you can do it before she teleports to safety).

If you dispel the magic jar, Hama is then physically trapped, fully conscious in the former magic jar/binding gem (as binding cannot be dispelled). The imp will usually retreat at that point, or Hama will emerge to continue the fight in her mortal form since she set a trigger condition that allows her to escape the binding easily (such as saying a certain rare phrase aloud)--or else dispel it normally if she is the caster.

I developed this tactic as a means of staving off natural...

1.You are going to trust an imp? Yes, I know its your familiar.

2.I have not read the rules, but assuming they work be careful about who you kidnap. Sometimes people have powerful friends and relatives.

3. I did try to find holes in this plan, but it seems solid, on paper anyway. Just remember points 1, 2, and 4.

4. Your party is evil, nuff said.

Dark Archive

Yeah, Imp, amulet, gg. Like, you're stealing bodies; you're plenty corrupt, time to harvest for promotion.


As far as the "They never get to claim [the soul]" issue:

Just as evil sorcerers scheme and plan to achieve power, influence, riches, and immortality--so too do the Great Powers of the Evil Planes scheme to harvest the souls of those who *believe* they are immortal.

Now, I am not a being of Great Power form an outer plane, but I might guess that they relish the harvesting of these particular souls *more* than the run-of-the-mill type. And epically long, super-convoluted plans involving several layers of deceit and trickery {and suffering} might be right up their alley. Just a guess.


If growing old is a notion you hate,
Then by all means, friend, reincarnate.


I would suggest using a homunculus to carry the Item.


I'm really only seeing problems for the CHARACTER. I would allow it for a few reasons. It screws the character in the [very] long run, and having that character fight its way out of hell would be freaking sweet. Not to mention, the character becomes increasingly paranoid of anything that might want to kill him. Which means that imp? Bye bye. I would make that character the center of a game that the only purpose was to hunt down his enemies as hired help. That way a ridonkulously powerful character becomes a recluse and everyone hunts down their old characters! Perfect, RD, it's an awesome plan.


Well, it really boils down to if your DM wants to allow it. Even if your Imp plays ball others may try and stop it. You have specifically said you are trying to Cheat Death. That brings it into the realm of Inevitable. I believe there was a write up a while ago about one that specifically hunts down beings that try what you are suggesting.

So if I were your DM and cool with this... then no problem. If I wanted you to take the consequences of choosing an old character to gain those ability score bonuses... then you would have to pay the piper when the time is due.

Scarab Sages

Lets see, step by step.

1. Use the jar to inhabit a powerful, youthful body. I believe that taking someone's body with the intent of keeping it forever pretty much makes you evil. Your imp can do what imps do and screw things up now :p

2. Repeated casting of magic jar would be used to extend the duration of this effect indefinitely. This should work, as repeated castings of the same spell extend the duration *as needed*.

3. Binding (minimus containment). Possibly a problem with this one. Binding targets one living creature. Your unoccupied body probably doesn't count as a living creature, but as an object. It's very possible you wouldn't be able to target your body. Since your body loses the mental stats, it is probably actually treated as a construct. :/
You might try having someone else *perhaps a rube of an apprentice* place him soul in your body, thus rendering it a valid target.

Additionally, having a few clones floating around in strategic locations might not be a bad idea either. For some extra protection, you can work on changing your imps alignment to something less evil-inclined :p Deck of many things might be fun to make your imp play with. A geas/quest might help keep the imp on the right track.


I think whether or not the character is evil is irrevalent. If you're contemplating lichdom, it's pretty much sealed. I think, in all honesty, it's perfectly reasonable for the character in question to think that cheating death is a good idea. Talk to your GM about it, and I hope it works out. I'd really like to see how it goes. Great roleplay concept, here, and don't let anyone force you into metagaming just to have a few convenient things happen (like having the imp not stab you in the back). The only motivation stronger than love is revenge. And greed. And the lust for power. And the fear of death. Okay, so there's a lot more than one. I think, if your character goes this way, she will have a LOT of motivation! When the GM screws your character over, it isn't necessarily bad!


Banishment + Imp = Game Over

-- but aye, technically it's fine, but most people avoid this kinda plan because you have to hand your balls over to someone/something/someplace!

//

Personally tho, as has been mentioned, leaving your life in the hands of an Devil is... ..risky.

Imps are the underlings of more powerful Devils last time I checked - assigned to mortal casters to corrupt them/help them spread evil..

..so far, so good..

...now, what do you think the someone pulling the imps strings is going to do with the kind of leverage your offering?

Even if there's no one pulling the imps strings, the imp can now force you to do the evil IT wants, not the evil YOU want...

..and finally, as mentioned, if your immortal the imp can't cash in your soul and move on up the infernal food chain/gain the praise of it's master's...

..so aye, that imp would have you jumping through hoops and going out in a blaze of evil-self-destructive glory!

//

O_o Personally, I'd 'see the light', flip to Lawful Good, get a Lawful Good familiar/flunky to take the imps place and Magic Jar evil folk...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
jakebacon wrote:

If growing old is a notion you hate,

Then by all means, friend, reincarnate.

Jake hit the nail on the head. You don't need anything else, except perhaps a (limited) wish to ensure she comes back as her original race.

Scarab Sages

Julian Neale wrote:
jakebacon wrote:

If growing old is a notion you hate,

Then by all means, friend, reincarnate.
Jake hit the nail on the head. You don't need anything else, except perhaps a (limited) wish to ensure she comes back as her original race.

This actually happened to a whole group of PCs in my home game. One of them was a druid, and at the end of the game, realized that the PCs could fake their deaths and then remain alive forever, protecting their interests from the shadows. He told me that anytime a character gets too old, he'll kill them and reincarnate them, and when he's too old, he'll have his cohort, also a druid, do it. Now I'm running a campaign set 130 years into the future and the humans and half-orcs from the first game are still out there somewhere. We just have to roll to see what they happen to be today...

Silver Crusade

I guess it's just as well that I'm not a GM. I would never allow something like that. When the character's time expires, that's it. He is done. Finished. Kaput. (Cue "Taps" here.) The magic would inexplicably cease to function, and the character's soul would go wherever souls go. Of course, I wouldn't tell you in advance. I would tell you only when the character ceased to exist.

As I said, it's just as well that I am not a GM.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Ravingdork wrote:
My idea was to use the magic jar spell to inhabit a powerful, youthful body. Repeated castings of magic jar would be used to extend the duration of this effect indefinitely.

This, as I see it, is the problem, and is subject to house interpretation.

PRD wrote:
By casting magic jar, you place your soul in a gem or large crystal (known as the magic jar), leaving your body lifeless. Then you can attempt to take control of a nearby body, forcing its soul into the magic jar.

By the wording of the spell, the CASTING of the spell places your soul in the receptacle. Therefore, by repeated casting, you're freeing the host. There is nothing in the spell description that says that you can cast it while in a host and remain in the host.

Your GM might tell you that this is a perfectly acceptable way to extend it. Or he might use letter of the spell description to say that it ends the current casting.

What you might be able to do, again with GM permission, but this is more reasonable, is to create a Wondrous Item that acts as a permanent Magic Jar. The item creation rules have a table to figure out how to price an item not in the book.

PRD wrote:
Use-activated or continuous; Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp

Figure caster level x spell level x 2000 for a continuous effect. Since you mention casting an 8th level spell, I'll assume you're 16th level. Even though you mention using a scroll, I assume it's just so you don't have to use up a spell in your repertoire for a spell you'll only need once (although Binding does sound like a great spell for a lich to have handy). So, 16 x 5 x 2000 = 160,000 base cost, plus material component for the magic jar spell required (100gp gem). I guess the binding would be a separate casting and not part of the item itself, but then if you do it that way, can you actually use the same gem? Again, GM discretion, but it couldn't hurt to assume a hostile GM. So, add the cost of a Binding spell, too.

PRD wrote:
Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.

This is a gem the Imp is carrying, right? So it's a non-slot item.

Adding Binding to the spell, at CL 16, we add 16 x 8 x 2000 = 256000, but the footnote for continuous effects states:

PRD wrote:
If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.

Since the binding effect you're using is permanent, that 256,000 becomes 128,000.

You have to add the cost of the components, which is 500gp x the HD of the target. Since the target's HD will go up (target is you, and hopefully, you'll increase in HD), that's kind of open-ended. What level do you expect to be by the time you attain lichdom? I guess we should assume 20th, because there are no PF epic rules out yet. 20 x 500gp = 10,000, so the total cost of the Binding effect (with components) is 138,000. Both effects together (before components) are 288,000 plus 10,100 in gems, for a total item cost of 298,100.

So, create the whole item as this:

PORT-A-BODY
Aura Strong necromancy, enchantment; CL16
Slot ---; Price 298,100
Description
As a full-round action, the owner of this gem can use it to take over another body permanently. The target gets a Will save (DC17) to resist the initial effect (Spell level 5, Minimum Spell Stat 15, feel free to give a reason that's wrong, since it seems low to me). A creature that saves remains immune to the effect as long as the gem remains in possession of the current owner. A new owner must have the gem in his possession for 24 hours before being able to activate it. This is to prevent a holder from giving it to someone in the party and then having them give it back in the same encounter. The owner's body vanishes into the gem, and the owner's consciousness controls the target's body. The target's consciousness is trapped within the gem, but is unable to interact with the owner's body or the outside world. This effect lasts until the possession is dispelled (CL 16), at which time the owner's consciousness returns to the gem inside his own body. He is then returned to his body, which is expelled from the gem in the exact state it was in when the item was last used. Any spells with a limited duration on the owner's original body will be ended, but the body will not have aged, nor suffered any effects of time such as hunger, thirst, or fatigue. The possessed body's original consciousness returns to its own form.

If the effect is dispelled while the gem is more than 260 feet from the possessed body, both the owner and the possessed body die.

Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, magic jar, binding; Cost 154,100gp

Shadow Lodge

Magicdealer wrote:
2. Repeated casting of magic jar would be used to extend the duration of this effect indefinitely. This should work, as repeated castings of the same spell extend the duration *as needed*.

Except the target creature would get a save every Caster Level hours.

"Failure to take over the host leaves your life force in the magic jar, and the target automatically succeeds on further saving throws if you attempt to possess its body again."

So each time your target body saves you need to hunt down a new body. Hunting down a new body every 5-10 days would be a tedious way to spend eternal life.


0gre wrote:
Magicdealer wrote:
2. Repeated casting of magic jar would be used to extend the duration of this effect indefinitely. This should work, as repeated castings of the same spell extend the duration *as needed*.

Except the target creature would get a save every Caster Level hours.

"Failure to take over the host leaves your life force in the magic jar, and the target automatically succeeds on further saving throws if you attempt to possess its body again."

So each time your target body saves you need to hunt down a new body. Hunting down a new body every 5-10 days would be a tedious way to spend eternal life.

Unless you are a galorian gnome.

Shadow Lodge

Abraham spalding wrote:
0gre wrote:
Magicdealer wrote:
2. Repeated casting of magic jar would be used to extend the duration of this effect indefinitely. This should work, as repeated castings of the same spell extend the duration *as needed*.

Except the target creature would get a save every Caster Level hours.

"Failure to take over the host leaves your life force in the magic jar, and the target automatically succeeds on further saving throws if you attempt to possess its body again."

So each time your target body saves you need to hunt down a new body. Hunting down a new body every 5-10 days would be a tedious way to spend eternal life.

Unless you are a galorian gnome.

Golarion gnomes are already immortal, without any tricks.


only for so long, and the spending time every couple of days for looking for a new body (indeed LIVING in a new body) would probably help extend that much longer, since it would be constant new experiences...

In fact I could see a nice end game villian for a party that is a gnome that's gone at least slightly mad from living that way for several years. In fact it would even nicely explain how he could be a reoccuring villian.

But yes I agree -- I was merely pointing out that a gnome would probably love the experience(s).


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

If you successfully dominate the creature to be possessed, then whenever it is "released" from the magic jar, you can simply command it to allow the next spell cast by you to automatically affect it.

In that same fashion, you can keep your host body perpetually dominated and magic jar'd. Since it only uses one extra 5th-level spell slot every dozen or so DAYS, it doesn't really interfere with your adventuring/spellcasting overly much. :)

I'm considering using a troll's body, perhaps one with barbarian class levels. I won't be able to keep it's class levels, but it looks as though I would keep it's total hit points.


Ravingdork wrote:

If you successfully dominate the creature to be possessed, then whenever it is "released" from the magic jar, you can simply command it to allow the next spell cast by you to automatically affect it.

In that same fashion, you can keep your host body perpetually dominated and magic jar'd. Since it only uses one extra 5th-level spell slot every dozen or so DAYS, it doesn't really interfere with your adventuring/spellcasting overly much. :)

I'm considering using a troll's body, perhaps one with barbarian class levels. I won't be able to keep it's class levels, but it looks as though I would keep it's total hit points.

It would probably get bonus to its savings throw against the dominate spell for trying to make it into an eternal prisoner. "The next spell" is to vague for most DM's. You might be able to bluff and say the next spell is X, when really it is a spell that does worse things.

Contributor

She's overcomplicating matters.

Have her make a Simulacrum of herself. Then use Magic Jar on the simulacrum. Then use Temporal Stasis on her original body with the simulacrum's "soul" inside it.

She's still aging, but only about a minute a day from the time it takes to reapply the spells.


Congratulations!

The Maruts will be by to discuss your new method of immortality with you shortly. Please stand by.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Zurai wrote:

Congratulations!

The Maruts will be by to discuss your new method of immortality with you shortly. Please stand by.

Do Maruts even exist in Pathfinder?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
Zurai wrote:

Congratulations!

The Maruts will be by to discuss your new method of immortality with you shortly. Please stand by.

Do Maruts even exist in Pathfinder?

Yes.

EDIT: to clarify; I don’t think we have seen an official Pathfinder RPG rules update for the Marut, but they are OGL , they have been used or mentioned and illustrated in 3.5 Pathfinder products, and exist in Golarion (specifically Axis).


Ravingdork wrote:
Zurai wrote:

Congratulations!

The Maruts will be by to discuss your new method of immortality with you shortly. Please stand by.

Do Maruts even exist in Pathfinder?

They're in the SRD, so they're available for Paizo to use, yes. They aren't in the Bestiary, though. Maybe we'll see them in the Bestiary 2, or maybe Paizo is happy enough to just make up their own LN exemplars.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Zurai wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Zurai wrote:

Congratulations!

The Maruts will be by to discuss your new method of immortality with you shortly. Please stand by.

Do Maruts even exist in Pathfinder?
They're in the SRD, so they're available for Paizo to use, yes. They aren't in the Bestiary, though. Maybe we'll see them in the Bestiary 2, or maybe Paizo is happy enough to just make up their own LN exemplars.

Inevitables exist in Golarion, they are denizens of Axis. Marut have made an appearance once or twice in the Adventure Paths I believe, and there is an illustration of a Marut fighting a Protean in the Mealstrom article in End of Eternity iirc.

So yes, Marut are in Pathfinder.

Contributor

Zurai wrote:

Congratulations!

The Maruts will be by to discuss your new method of immortality with you shortly. Please stand by.

I'd like the maruts to explain, using their +6 Diplomacy and +10 Knowledge Religion, why gods apparently get a pass on the whole "immortality" and "raising the dead" business but the forces of law get their knickers in a knot if mortals do the same thing. If the answer is any variation of "Because" or "Look, I don't make the rules, that's just the way it is" then ask if they would please explain how this is rather obvious double standard is not hypocrisy. And if/when they admit that it is hypocrisy, point out that they are hypocrites and therefore cannot be Lawful Neutral as they say, since hypocrisy is evil, and indeed, in Golarion, it is an older evil than undeath, since there were hypocrites long before Urgathoa ever fled the Boneyard.

If this doesn't cause the maruts to short out and scream about "Does not compute! Does not compute!" I'll summon some malebranches to cart these obvious and admitted hypocrites off to the appropriate circle of Hell, because malebranches have dominion over hypocrites and these are obviously very fine examples.


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
hypocrisy is evil

Not true. That aside...

Quote:
I'd like the maruts to explain, using their +6 Diplomacy and +10 Knowledge Religion, why gods apparently get a pass on the whole "immortality" and "raising the dead" business but the forces of law get their knickers in a knot if mortals do the same thing.

First, raising the dead doesn't bring the attention of the Maruts. Maruts are only concerned with mortals seeking to become immortal through non-approved means. Currently, the only approved means to become immortal is to become a deity -- whether that's through taking the Test of the Starstone (Cayden Cailean, etc), achieving perfect enlightenment (Irori), or whatever other means there are for mortals to become deities -- or to die and have your soul transmigrate into an outsider (angel, demon, etc). Deities and outsiders aren't subject to this because the rule is only that mortals cannot cheat death.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Zurai wrote:

Congratulations!

The Maruts will be by to discuss your new method of immortality with you shortly. Please stand by.

I'd like the maruts to explain, using their +6 Diplomacy and +10 Knowledge Religion, why gods apparently get a pass on the whole "immortality" and "raising the dead" business but the forces of law get their knickers in a knot if mortals do the same thing. If the answer is any variation of "Because" or "Look, I don't make the rules, that's just the way it is" then ask if they would please explain how this is rather obvious double standard is not hypocrisy. And if/when they admit that it is hypocrisy, point out that they are hypocrites and therefore cannot be Lawful Neutral as they say, since hypocrisy is evil, and indeed, in Golarion, it is an older evil than undeath, since there were hypocrites long before Urgathoa ever fled the Boneyard.

If this doesn't cause the maruts to short out and scream about "Does not compute! Does not compute!" I'll summon some malebranches to cart these obvious and admitted hypocrites off to the appropriate circle of Hell, because malebranches have dominion over hypocrites and these are obviously very fine examples.

Heh heh, I don’t think exemplars of Lawful Neutral believe in or understand hypocrisy. If That Is What The Law States, then It Is The Law, no matter if it appears hypocritical or nonsensical.

Scarab Sages

Ehhh... I'd go with the whole *natural for the species* like. Mortals are, by definition, not immortal. Deities aren't necessarily immortal since they can be killed, however they do not naturally die from aging. Perhaps there is a version of Marut that puts the beatdown on gods who try to die :p

It's not necessarily about the living or the dying, so much as the established laws of an entities nature.


Magicdealer wrote:

Ehhh... I'd go with the whole *natural for the species* like. Mortals are, by definition, not immortal. Deities aren't necessarily immortal since they can be killed, however they do not naturally die from aging. Perhaps there is a version of Marut that puts the beatdown on gods who try to die :p

It's not necessarily about the living or the dying, so much as the established laws of an entities nature.

Not sure if 3.0 epic handbook was OGL, but there were inevitables in it that hunted down those who tried to either become a god or tried to commit deicide.

Contributor

Zurai wrote:
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
hypocrisy is evil

Not true. That aside...

Quote:
I'd like the maruts to explain, using their +6 Diplomacy and +10 Knowledge Religion, why gods apparently get a pass on the whole "immortality" and "raising the dead" business but the forces of law get their knickers in a knot if mortals do the same thing.
First, raising the dead doesn't bring the attention of the Maruts. Maruts are only concerned with mortals seeking to become immortal through non-approved means. Currently, the only approved means to become immortal is to become a deity -- whether that's through taking the Test of the Starstone (Cayden Cailean, etc), achieving perfect enlightenment (Irori), or whatever other means there are for mortals to become deities -- or to die and have your soul transmigrate into an outsider (angel, demon, etc). Deities and outsiders aren't subject to this because the rule is only that mortals cannot cheat death.

Well, I'm going with Dante's Inferno, specifically Canto XXIII, where it says that hypocrites go to Hell and there get tortured by the malebranche.

Since we're going with a Hell with nine circles and whatnot, it's not unreasonable to assume that some of the sins listed in Dante are still sins in the Pathfinder universe.

Of course, the Maruts can explain that since the Pathfinder universe's version of Vatican II, hypocrisy is no longer a sin and the malebranche are no longer responsible for hypocrites, the same as pimps, fortunetellers, and sorcerers are no longer automatically guilty of wickedness.

At this point, I will ask the Maruts for clarification on whether necromancers go to Hell and if necromancy is evil and thereby overtax their processors until smoke begins to come out their ears and their heads explode.


TheWhiteknife wrote:
Magicdealer wrote:

Ehhh... I'd go with the whole *natural for the species* like. Mortals are, by definition, not immortal. Deities aren't necessarily immortal since they can be killed, however they do not naturally die from aging. Perhaps there is a version of Marut that puts the beatdown on gods who try to die :p

It's not necessarily about the living or the dying, so much as the established laws of an entities nature.

Not sure if 3.0 epic handbook was OGL, but there were inevitables in it that hunted down those who tried to either become a god or tried to commit deicide.

ELH is mostly OGL (you find epic spells and monsters and feats in the 3.5 SRD) but those specific anti-deicide inevitables were in Fiend Folio.

Nevertheless, one could change the fluff of the Anaxim and go pretty well (as an abomination, you can even add moar powers and spell-likes to it!).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Perhaps I am wrong here, once your soul is in that jar/ amulet, what is to stop the imp from going home to hell and giving it to one of his superiors for kudos? why would the imp be interested in seeing your character achieveing an imortality where your character's soul is bound to an object on the materiel plane?. For that matter, what is to prevent the imp, from snatching your phylactery, returning to hell, and giving it to a hiegher up? Perhaps it has already been suggested.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
ElyasRavenwood wrote:
Perhaps I am wrong here, once your soul is in that jar/ amulet, what is to stop the imp from going home to hell and giving it to one of his superiors for kudos? why would the imp be interested in seeing your character achieveing an imortality where your character's soul is bound to an object on the materiel plane?. For that matter, what is to prevent the imp, from snatching your phylactery, returning to hell, and giving it to a hiegher up? Perhaps it has already been suggested.

What's preventing it?

Two things:

1) Players play their familiars just as readily as druids/rangers/summoners play their animal companions/eidolons.

2) Any GM that takes a valuable resource that the player has INVESTED IN with the expectation of it being an advantage (a feat and a class ability in this case) and uses it to totally screw the player over by making it anything but an advantage will quickly run out of players willing to play with him (or get punched in the face).

The conniving imp that runs off with the caster's soul is what happens to foolish NPCs (usually to set up a story of some kind), or to PCs after their play time has ended and they've retired/died.

Scarab Sages

Ravingdork wrote:
ElyasRavenwood wrote:
Perhaps I am wrong here, once your soul is in that jar/ amulet, what is to stop the imp from going home to hell and giving it to one of his superiors for kudos? why would the imp be interested in seeing your character achieveing an imortality where your character's soul is bound to an object on the materiel plane?. For that matter, what is to prevent the imp, from snatching your phylactery, returning to hell, and giving it to a hiegher up? Perhaps it has already been suggested.

What's preventing it?

2) Any GM that takes a valuable resource that the player has INVESTED IN with the expectation of it being an advantage (a feat and a class ability in this case) and uses it to totally screw the player over by making it anything but an advantage will quickly run out of players willing to play with him (or get punched in the face).

In the days of old when dnd was young, we use to refer to these GM's as Killer DM's. Yep, we never played with them again. And some did get punched.

Thoth-Amon has left his mental signature

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:


At this point, I will ask the Maruts for clarification on whether necromancers go to Hell and if necromancy is evil and thereby overtax their processors until smoke begins to come out their ears and their heads explode.

From the way this character has been described, her destination is downstairs for reasons below and beyond necromancy. The minimus containment won't work because when her soul is outside her body it's no longer a targetable creature for the spell.

Eventually it'll come down to the fact that the longer she kicks around, the more likely she's going to come to the notice of someone or some power who's main interest being that she stops blocking her natural destiny. At that point it's going to be one of those thins where she'll last until the day her juggling act between the powers that are interested in keeping her alive finally lose to those who are looking to bring her end.

And Imps are imps... unlike pseudodragons obeying thier master is a secondary priority at best. That's the price you pay for thier relatively greater power and utility.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
LazarX wrote:
And Imps are imps... unlike pseudodragons obeying thier master is a secondary priority at best. That's the price you pay for thier relatively greater power and utility.

Oh really? And here I thought the price I paid was the feat and class ability that I spent! Oh what a fool I've been to believe otherwise!

[/sarcasm]


Ravingdork wrote:
LazarX wrote:
And Imps are imps... unlike pseudodragons obeying thier master is a secondary priority at best. That's the price you pay for thier relatively greater power and utility.

Oh really? And here I thought the price I paid was the feat and class ability that I spent! Oh what a fool I've been to believe otherwise!

[/sarcasm]

It really depends on how much the DM uses flavor. They really should be out to get you. I would not have an imp directly take a player down, but he may set up negotiations through an outside party or withhold information to try to get the soul quicker. Using commune to figure out the best way to get you to die without having to wait hundreds of years is not a bad use of the spell. It would also depend on the party also. If it would really upset the player to use the imp against him I would find other means of harassment, other than the imp.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It does look like a good way of achieving immortality, or at least, extension of your life indefinitely. It would be a pain to keep getting a new body every now and again (because hosts WOULD make their saving throw occasionally). However, your largest problem is the weakness of the magic jar. If it gets broke, the spells all end; if it enters an anti-magic field, likewise ...

Your best bet might be to take the Leadership feat, and reward your cohorts and followers handsomely for letting you have occasional use of their bodies.


One note. Many here have posited that the imp will be quite duplicitous and likely to take the character's soul at 1st opportunity, whether directly or indirectly. There's actually good reason for the imp to be supportive of his master. Sure, Hell wants the guy's soul. No arguments there. But those devils have time. By letting Ravingdork live, he'll slide quite nicely to evil. Then, given he's found a good way to live forever (though it's a method that's been around through several editions), he's likely to commit MORE evil. Evil the imp can continue to support, thus sending more souls to his infernal masters....

Contributor

Exactly.

Some people want to play Hell and it's devils as having all the impulse control of a three-year-old in a candy shop. That's not Hell. That's the Abyss and its demons. Devils have a very firm grasp on the concept of delayed gratification.

And bargains for youth and longevity are as old as Faust and likely a good bit older. Restore an old man's youth and give him an extra fifty or so years of life in return for his soul, with the very real possibility of getting it earlier if he gets killed? What exactly is the downside for Hell here?

As for the maruts, there's a question of whether they're being played as the bully boys and enforcers of some random god, in which case they pass the buck for all their actions to said random divinity, or if they're simply enforcing Law as it has been written in all its inflexible majesty and petifogging detail, in which case the damn well better be able to quote ever code, sub-paragraph, and regulation regarding the illegal extension of life or inherent unlawfulness of undeadness.

And I still say that if you come up with some legal conundrum which they can't answer, they should break down with smoke coming out their ears or at least turn themselves in to their home plain for repairs and upgrades. After all, if they have Diplomacy and Knowledge Religion as skills, there should be ways to defeat them by using those same skills in return, negotiating a delay via etiquette and protocol or bamboozling them via theological twaddle about angels dancing on heads of pins.

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