In the vein of what Mynameisjake is talking about:
Party of adventurers goes to use invisibility sphere to walk into a cave with troll guards at the front.
The party gets just about 55 ft away and one of the trolls perks up the casts a spell -- Fireball.
Players: "How did he know to do that?!?"
DM: "Detect Magic"
Now that it's a level 0 spell and usable effectively at will, I am having a problem with PCs wanting to detect magic all the time, on everything.
I don't see the problem.
In 3.5 there was a feat that gave detect magic at will, and you could simply make it (or MUCH better arcane sight) permanent.
The game didn't end, heck you didn't even hear about it.
So accept it as part of the world and adapt/move on.
Perhaps actually use Leomund's (Phantom) Trap and other such magics.
-James
Because Permanence requires you to be really high level, not first level. If archmages can always see magic, that's less of a problem for me.
And the problem isn't magical traps - that's 1/100 of the cases in which detect magic may (RAW) counteract much higher level spells. Is the princess charmed? Easy to tell. Is that guy a magically transformed spy? Easy to tell. Is there an invisible guy around, or is that wall an illusion... No matter how high level the spell used to do it, no matter anything. Sure, you can ladle another 20 dweomers on to try to mask the important ones, in which case they just light up like a Christmas tree and are certainly targeted by PCs.
Anyway, for those who don't see it as a problem - fine, move on. There's other threads for you to go naysay. I do, however, and was looking for constructive comments that address meaningful game situations besides specific point items like magical traps to help maintain magical mysteries and whatnot in game. Many of you seem to be prescribing things that end up reducing to "sure you can keep magic a secret as long as you have a dozen spells to cast" or "well sure as long as anyone casting a spell is always piled on by the city guard." Those are, perhaps, solutions, and I appreciate those a lot more than the "you must suck as a DM if your world doesn't handle all this" crowd, but they don't seem to really fit with the general feel most campaign worlds have in my experience (GH, FR, Golarion). In those worlds, there's all sorts of people who use magic for various devious ends, but for some reason an at-will spell for most of the casters in the world *doesn't* trivially defeat.
Actually most of the "naysayers" have been providing advice on how to avoid the problems you claim exist, and the few that haven't have suggested that you should adapt to the change.
Beyond that this is the rules section -- not the advice section. If you want advice I would suggest having the thread moved -- not to be snarky but because the way I approach such issues is different depending on the section of the forum the question is asked in.
You ask here and I'm going to give you what the rules say, and how those rules interact with each other.
If you ask in the advice section I'm much more likely to look for ways around your problem and possible things the PC's might pull in response.
Basically you're asking in the wrong place.
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Well, just a little more advice for the social half of the issue. I have a small modification to all the "detect" spells, of the cone and concentration nature, that I use if they seem to be getting out of hand.
Detect Magic: Your eyes glow with a blue light during casting and as long as your are maintaining concentration.
Detect Evil: Your eyes glow with a white light...
Detect Good: red
Detect Poison: green
Detect Law: purple
Detect Chaos: yellow
Detect Undead: pink
Detect Thoughts: orange
A mage shopping in a magic shop who's eyes turn blue is not a problem. A paladin walking into a bar with his eyes glowing white is looking for a fight. It turns the spotlight back upon the character as the whether it is appropriate in the particular social situation to be using spells in checking others out.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Now that it's a level 0 spell and usable effectively at will, I am having a problem with PCs wanting to detect magic all the time, on everything.
I don't see the problem.
In 3.5 there was a feat that gave detect magic at will, and you could simply make it (or MUCH better arcane sight) permanent.
The game didn't end, heck you didn't even hear about it.
So accept it as part of the world and adapt/move on.
Perhaps actually use Leomund's (Phantom) Trap and other such magics.
-James
Because Permanence requires you to be really high level, not first level. If archmages can always see magic, that's less of a problem for me.
And the problem isn't magical traps - that's 1/100 of the cases in which detect magic may (RAW) counteract much higher level spells. Is the princess charmed? Easy to tell. Is that guy a magically transformed spy? Easy to tell. Is there an invisible guy around, or is that wall an illusion... No matter how high level the spell used to do it, no matter anything. Sure, you can ladle another 20 dweomers on to try to mask the important ones, in which case they just light up like a Christmas tree and are certainly targeted by PCs.
But, wouldn't your PCs have to have a reason to detect magic to determine some of these situations? For example:
Charmed Princess: Unless the princess is in an environment that merits the detect spell, why would your PCs target her? Do they make a practice of detecting magic on everyone they meet? And even if they did, what are the chances that the princess doesn't ALSO have a minor magic item on her person (she is royalty, after all) that would detect as magical? And in order to get more info than a magical aura, they would have to stare at her for 18 seconds - which would raise some eyebrows and probably make her uncomfortable enough to do something to break the observer's concentration.
I just can't see this particular example as a problem area, as a LOT of things have to occur to even prompt someone to detect magic on a person they are not in combat with, and once it is cast, there are many variables that could come into play to interrupt the spell to make it effective.
Magically Transformed Spy: Same argument as Charmed Princess. Logically, something the spy does has to prompt the viewer to target the spy with Detect Magic in the first place. And, once targetted, no self respecting spy is going to let ANYONE look at him for 18 uniterrupted seconds. All he has to do is duck behind a curtain, and the spell is broken. All the viewer then knows is that there is something magical about the person he just looked at.
Invisibility: Detect Magic is something requiring line of sight and contains Verbal and Somatic components - which can be viewed by the invisible person. All he has to do is move out of the line of sight and the viewer has to start all over again.
Round 1: "Wait, I see an aura." Invisible person moves.
Round 2: "Just lost it. Let me see if I can find the aura again." Invisible person backstabs viewer.
Again, I don't see this as a gamebreaker. Unless the invisible person or object is oblivious to the actions of the mage, it is easy to circumvent the effects of Detect Magic. And even so, a mage trying to use Detect Magic to locate an invisible person takes one of the heavy hitters of the PC's party out of combat to perform a relatively benign action rather than, say, casting a fireball or any number of more useful spells.
Illusion: Sure, you can tell pretty quickly there's a magic aura around that wall, but it takes 18 seconds to identify it as an Illusion. And even then, is the entire wall and illusion, or just parts of it? What is lurking behind that illusion? If the illusion is covering a trap or a monster waiting in ambush, the Detect Magic spell gives the trap or monster 3 rounds in which to be set off (ie, like a timer for a trap), or for the monster to attack.
Again, I don't see this as a gamebreaker either. To use it effectively, it takes the mage out of action for 3 rounds just to identify an illusion. More steps still need to be taken to determine enough information about the illusion to determine its specific nature and/or how to counteract it.
Overall, Ernest, I'm not seeing the at will Detect Magic to be the big problem you see it as. There are a lot of extenuating circumstances that must be met in order for the PCs to use the spell effectively in the scenarios you seem to have the most concerns about. I may be missing something in what you're saying, but hopefully my post can help you work through some of your concerns.
I like Detect Magic the way it is. Remember that you need three rounds to get full results...
+1
If there is a reasonable suspicion of an invisible attacker in the area and the best the mage can come up with is to concentrate on Detect magic for 3 rounds, and the best that the invisible attacker can do is stand there... both have failed.
As for your enthralled prince... perhaps he's under the effects of a Good Hope spell while negotiating with the players? Better yet, his father thinks he's a jerk and just uses Charm Person on him to at least make him agreeable to ideas that the old king has. Lots of ways to play this out.
As for a spy using illusion in any setting... I can't imagine the number of ways that a minor illusion could be used in everyday PF life.
I would also like to point out that strong auras overwhelm weaker ones, and too many auras muddle the results making them unable to identify. The book leaves both of these up to the DM to determine when they apply.
A charm person is a 1st level spell. Give your princess or spy anything with a strong aura, and suddenly that aura is undetectable. Or give them a decent number of magic items and overwhelm the PC with auras. Finally, use items that have the same type of aura (or claim they have them), like cloaks of elven kind to give off illusion auras. The Princess could have her own elixer of love she plans on using, or one of truth.
Most of the time, invisibility wont even be the problem that is detected. Most magic items have stronger auras than a 2nd level spell. That pearl of power you have is a strong aura (CL 17).
Really, there are so many ways to fool it that its not really an issue in any game I have run. Personally, I do like the interpretation that anything designed to fool the senses will also fool Detect Magic though. You can't study an aura that you can't see, so that illusion spell is safe.
For those mentioning that the invisible person can just move, check out the rules on lingering auras. Its possible to tail someone with detect magic if they are invisible and the other auras in the area are weak.
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I have a problem with Detect Magic as it is too - mostly for the out of combat consequences.
There are multiple ways to fix it, but if I'm going to hourserule something, I want it to be very simple to remember - nothing is more annoying than having a houserule that has ramifications throughout the system that have to be taken into account for new players.
My personal house rule for Detect Magic is that the cantrip Detect Magic has a range of touch. Anyone with either the cantrip or first level spell Detect Magic now has, as a first level spell option, Greater Detect Magic - which operates as the cantrip in the RAW.
Jess Door: As a house rule "work around", this is perhaps one of the nicer ones I've seen. This lazy DM may just snag this, if yea don't mind. :o)
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Jess Door: As a house rule "work around", this is perhaps one of the nicer ones I've seen. This lazy DM may just snag this, if yea don't mind. :o)
Not at all. I wanted to find the simplest change that would keep a freely castable cantrip from seeing through walls, and the necessity of exposing the wizard's squishy self to whatever he's testing is a nice little bonus. It's still trivial to identify magical items an dif you suspect something is magical you can find out, if you think it's safe to touch it.
There are other good and consistent options people have proposed, however. :) This has been talked of quite a bit.
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Couple of things here...
1. Let's stop with the trolling and name calling and what-not. We are all adults. We can agree, or we can disagree, but if this sort of thing continues, Paizo will close the thread (or worse). Seen it happen before at other sites.
2. I agree with a lot of what's been said, positive and negative about how people run their games and use detect magic. I've had the same issue in my game, and a couple of things come to mind.
- Been said before, but I'll say it again. Detect magic is a spell and therefore has a VSM (Verbal, Somatic, Material). It's not something that can be easily hidden and in a social situation is very obvious.
- Detect magic takes 3 rounds to identify, on one object, person, or location, how many specific schools of aura there are and their strength. In that time, the caster can't loose concentration and the object has to stay still.
- A couple ways around this are
1. Magic Aura - yes, it takes an extra slot to cast, but you can easily put it into a wand and use it that way. Magic aura nulifies the spell aura of the spell it is cast on. Also, remember that detect magic doesn't tell you what the specific spell is, only the school. Turn it on the players. Let them assume that an enchantment aura is a Charm or an Illusion aura is an assassin in disguise. When they find out that the Enchantment aura was a Heroism spell, or the Illusion was a Magic Aura spell someone used to feel more important they might feel like idiots, especially when they get in trouble for false acusations.
2. Material items cause blockage. Lead, stone, wood, earth, etc of a certain thickness all block detect spells. A certain episode in OotS comes to mind. Use this to block the characters detect spell. I've seen it used in quite a few Pathfinder adventures for this very reason. Who says NPCs need to be stupid, especially with the current ruleset in play. If I were an NPC making a magical trap, I'd be pretty pissed if I spent 10k gp on a trap only to have it be foiled by a cantrip. So, put some lead in, and voila, no detect magic.
3. A feat in my world called Inverted Spell (stole it from Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series). Basically it bumps the spell by one level and makes the spell undetectable. Not very useful for Fireball spells, but is for Dominate Person, Illusory Wall, etc.
4. For those dungeon delvers, the wizard/sorcerer/caster would need to be out front to be able to filter through the auras of magic of other players. Let the players figure this one out on their own. My group did. Being out front makes the caster vulnerable, which means he/she becomes a tasty snack or the resident trapfinder. A caster in the back using detect magic would never find anything due to all of the other PCs with magic items moving around. As a person, honestly, would you want to move 60 ft., and then have to stand still for almost a half a minute, move 60 ft., rinse, repeat. Heck no! I'd get pretty irritated after a while. If necessary, you could roleplay this aspect by stopping the game every 30 seconds for about fifteen seconds. When asked what you are doing, say "Shhh... the wizard is concentrating..." Realism, man, realism!
5. Constantly scanning for magical aura's takes TIME. Imagine a party searching 100 sqaure feet of dungeon, and then being told that they are done for the day (ie. rest, food, sleep etc). I did this with my party when they said that they were searching every 5 ft. square for traps. Slowing down the campaign that much becomes a drag on them. Let them understand this. Plus, it eats resources (food, water, light sources, etc). Finally, a slow moving party might attract a lot more wandering monsters than one that is spry on their feet.
6. Constantly concentrating on a spell must be fatiguing. Imagine trying to read small text all day, or doing the same repetative motion again and again. It wears you out. Who's to say that the caster doesn't start getting a headache after a while, or stubs his toes because he's not watching where he's going. Or the NPC thats with them gets bored and starts being annoying and whining. While there are no rules for this specific aspect, I find it to be realistic. In the end, you are the GM, and what you say goes. There's a reason that companies spent so much money research egronomics and the effects of posture and lighting in office spaces. It affects productivity. A caster concentrating on a spell for hours on end would reasonable suffer the same issues.
7. Have someone do the same to the PCs. Imagine the PCs are at a tavern and some other party comes in. The wizard with that party casts detect magic and keeps scanning the PCs. I would be irritated after a while. Let them know how obtuse they are being by doing so.
Players will always be players. Especially with my current group, I've learned that they are there to test me and push me and see what they can get away with. It's my job to give some, but mostly push back and let them know that rule breaking won't be tolerated. It's kinda like the teenager who starts testing their boundries. Let them test, but let them know where the walls are and that they can't go any further.
I would also like to point out that strong auras overwhelm weaker ones, and too many auras muddle the results making them unable to identify. The book leaves both of these up to the DM to determine when they apply.
This isn't actually true.
The spell destinctly points out that it gives you the number of auras on the second round and the schools of the auras on the third round with the correct check. Now what spells these are in that aura range is going to be hard to tell -- after all both good hope and charm person are in the same aura strength, as is greater heroism and dominate monster, burning hands and fireball, and summon monster 1~3.
You also don't know if the aura on the sword is a spell or the fact that it is magical.
The spell detect magic leaves lots of vagularities, unfortunately more auras do not "muddle the results".
Change of tactics due to detect magic being available at-will?!
Wait, your parties in 3.0/3.5 didn't create items casting detect magic at will?! It was on first items to be made if anyone had appropriate Item Creation feats or bought if no one had. It was cheaper than permanency and available on much lower level...
I removed some back and forth sniping.
Pointing out that someone has stepped over a line is fine, but please don't let it devolve into mutual name calling. If someone doesn't respond to polite reminders to be civil, that's what we have the flagging system for.
In my campaign Detect Magic can not detect things that their purpose is to hide something.
So, it cant detect invisibility (of any form) and magical traps.
It can still detect the traps that are created from spells (glyphs and fire trap) but not the usual traps that need money to be crafted and not just a single spell. Only a rogue can find them.
Maybe i wont allow it to detect conseiled things aswell (alter self..) and charm like auras.
so... what does it detect?
My DMs (multiple DMs mind you) have made Detect Magic near useless by blinding me every time I try and use it.
Me: "I activate Detect Magic"
DM: "Roll Fort as the magic is so powerful that it blinds you"
Me: *Never uses the stupid spell again*
My DMs (multiple DMs mind you) have made Detect Magic near useless by blinding me every time I try and use it.
Me: "I activate Detect Magic"
DM: "Roll Fort as the magic is so powerful that it blinds you"
Me: *Never uses the stupid spell again*
I've seen this so often I've almost puked over it.
Me: "No I'll simply take my one round of stun and let the spell deactivate exactly like it states in the spell description thank you all the same."
In my campaign Detect Magic can not detect things that their purpose is to hide something.
So, it cant detect invisibility (of any form) and magical traps.
It can still detect the traps that are created from spells (glyphs and fire trap) but not the usual traps that need money to be crafted and not just a single spell. Only a rogue can find them.
Maybe i wont allow it to detect conseiled things aswell (alter self..) and charm like auras.
Yeah, that's where I'm leaning too.
As to "what does it detect then?" Well, 95% of magic, which doesn't fit into that category. Most magic items, most spell effects, etc. "DM is useless if it can't detect charms and alter selfs" is silly.
Although I do think a roll to "overcome" - much like the Dispel Magic caster level check - could be in order.
It can still detect the traps that are created from spells (glyphs and fire trap) but not the usual traps that need money to be crafted and not just a single spell. Only a rogue can find them.
Just noticed this and wanted to point it out (this is a crusade for me): You are incorrect on the bolded part. The trapfinding feature doesn't give you the ability to find magical traps -- anyone can find magical traps -- all trapfinding lets you do is disable magical traps with the disable device skill.
Yeah, that's where I'm leaning too.
As to "what does it detect then?" Well, 95% of magic, which doesn't fit into that category. Most magic items, most spell effects, etc. "DM is useless if it can't detect charms and alter selfs" is silly.
Although I do think a roll to "overcome" - much like the Dispel Magic caster level check - could be in order.
Honestly I don't mind the thought of a roll to detect "concealed spells".
Also I had an idea that might be a good mixing of all options.
I was thinking -- walking around concentrating all the time would probably tire out almost anyone. It would be like the fighter walking around all day swinging that greatsword every six seconds -- even when not in combat. So how about a fatiguing rule for it instead?
This would cause players to not walk around with it active all the time so you won't have to worry about "HEY why didn't I see that with my detect magic spell up?" and since it's not always active they'll have to wait for a situation where it would make sense to cast the spell (and would be socially acceptable to do so).
They still get the current utility (which is good in my opinion) while you as a GM know that it won't be a "always on" function.
Combined with the idea of a roll to detect specific spells (and I would state this upfront as a GM of course, as well as provide a list of spells that could be "hidden" from detect magic so the PCs can use them as such as well) would probably balance it just fine (at least back to the point you want it).
The fatiguing idea would probably help with paladins detecting evil as a radar too.
I'd actually be ok with that. Any at will spell or spell like ability should begin to cause fatigue checks when used for more than CON minutes of continuous use. To reset the clock, you have to stop using it for 10 minutes (or CON minutes, whichever is less, so that you don't need to rest 10 minutes for using it 8 if your con is 8).
I'd actually be ok with that. Any at will spell or spell like ability should begin to cause fatigue checks when used for more than CON minutes of continuous use. To reset the clock, you have to stop using it for 10 minutes (or CON minutes, whichever is less, so that you don't need to rest 10 minutes for using it 8 if your con is 8).
Oh my GOD yes. I've been saying this forever... just because you have an at will spell doesn't mean it's effortless to cast over and over and over again, like the folks who think using Create Water to fill a big pit is going to be easy as pie.
Player: "Ok, so I cast Create Water over and over again until the pit is filled... so in a few hours"...
DM: ..."Within the first half hour you've collapsed from exhaustion".
Player: "What? That's not in the RULES"!
DM: "Them's the breaks".
Honestly I don't mind the thought of a roll to detect "concealed spells".
Doesn't this further minimize the usefulness of spells like misdirection, magic aura and non-detection?
Was this a problem for everyone in 3.5? I don't recall much discussion about it. Why/why not?
-James
You only had 5 or 6 0 level spells in 3.5, and most people memorized Read Magic and Prestidigitation more than detect magic, so you had maybe one or 2 castings of it. So, you hoarded that for when you really needed it.
You didn't have players going around saying 'I keep up Detect Magic at all times'.
If a spell is going to ruin your scenario/campaign then think of a way around it - many people have obviously given this some thought and there's merit in most of the suggestions. Pick one and run with it. My personal favourite is 'Range: Touch', although at the moment I let the spell run as per the rules in my own game. It hasn't been a problem - but maybe my group are just playing nice... :)
I would also like to point out that strong auras overwhelm weaker ones, and too many auras muddle the results making them unable to identify. The book leaves both of these up to the DM to determine when they apply.This isn't actually true.
The spell destinctly points out that it gives you the number of auras on the second round and the schools of the auras on the third round with the correct check. Now what spells these are in that aura range is going to be hard to tell -- after all both good hope and charm person are in the same aura strength, as is greater heroism and dominate monster, burning hands and fireball, and summon monster 1~3.
You also don't know if the aura on the sword is a spell or the fact that it is magical.
The spell detect magic leaves lots of vagularities, unfortunately more auras do not "muddle the results".
The spell leaves what gets affected entirely up to the GM, but does allow the GM to hide auras through obfuscation or overwhelming. You can easily tell the player "there are at least 5 auras, but after concentrating you can't tell what each is" or something to that effect, and you will be supported by the spell description.
Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local emmanations may distort or conceal weaker auras.
1) Don't disagree with it all, just feel that some of the cantrips might have been better 'punched up' and made 1st level spells, or modified to adjust them so that at-will is not as much of an issue. Personally, I would have 'punched up' detect magic and made it a 1st level spell by making it line of sight and just making magical items glow with an aura colored by school and been done with it.
2) Yep, but at 1st thru 4th levels spending 375g on a wand was more than most characters wanted to spend on it. And once you got up to 5th or higher, yes, it could get bought. Never saw it happen, honestly. I ran D&D 3.5 since it came out and never had anyone buy a wand of detect magic.
3) Yep, and at midlevels, I have no issue with it. Because by then, the traps and dangers are at a higher level, and I don't have to use an expensive aura spell on every trap in a dungeon designed to mess with 1st to 3rd level characters. In other words, previously, by the time you could get permanent detect magic, your threats were realistically going to counter detect magic, despite the cost.
4) Never saw the feat, but, I'm guessing it was again not one you could take at 1st thru 4th level.
5) But none that started off at 1st level, you're talking about things you could get when you hit 7th or 12th level. Again, level appropriate.
Don't get me wrong, it's fixable. What annoys me is people who get on and post 'You're dumb if you can't handle it'. It's a legitimate issue and people come to the board to discuss 'how do you handle at will detect magic' and then get dumped on by people who are more interested in proving how much of a jerk they are than helping other people with solutions.
Note I'm not including you in the above statement James, but if you look up thread, you'll see what I mean. You've been basically pointing out it's been a problem for some gm's pre PF. But not all GM's had issues with it before. The problem to me seems to be more of a kid with a new toy issue. The players have a new shiny toy and they use it as much as possible. In a year or so I doubt it will be as big an issue.
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I like Detect Magic the way it is. Remember that you need three rounds to get full results...
Very true; two PCs in my group have it "always on" (or so the players claim). However, it *does* take three rounds to get the full results, and I've started to rattle off *all* the surrounding auras (including from all the magical items the PCs are wearing and spells they have on, i.e. "Well, there are sixteen auras in close proximity... make a Spellcraft checks for the first one... and it seems to be faint alteration... then the second one...blah blah blah"). If I just let them "filter out" all the auras from their items and spells, magic traps would become pointless in the game -- now at least they don't try that tactic in *every* room and corridor.
I also emphasize that all Detect spells require you to study the subject *very* intensely -- for example, if the paladin keeps on staring rudely at people everywhere, he *will* get a reputation as a weird and perverted being. And some (if not most) people will not react kindly to such intense scrutinizing ("What are you staring at, creep?").
I'm thinking of making the level 0 spell only Sense whether there is magic in the area, while a level 1 spell Detect Magic would be more long the lines of the existing spell, I have to think it over though...
I like Detect Magic the way it is. Remember that you need three rounds to get full results...Very true; two PCs in my group have it "always on" (or so the players claim). However, it *does* take three rounds to get the full results, and I've started to rattle off *all* the surrounding auras (including from all the magical items the PCs are wearing and spells they have on, i.e. "Well, there are sixteen auras in close proximity... make a Spellcraft checks for the first one... and it seems to be faint alteration... then the second one...blah blah blah"). If I just let them "filter out" all the auras from their items and spells, magic traps would become pointless in the game -- now at least they don't try that tactic in *every* room and corridor.
I also emphasize that all Detect spells require you to study the subject *very* intensely -- for example, if the paladin keeps on staring rudely at people everywhere, he *will* get a reputation as a weird and perverted being. And some (if not most) people will not react kindly to such intense scrutinizing ("What are you staring at, creep?").
HAH! That makes me want to run a Paladin named "THE TICK"!
Honestly I don't mind the thought of a roll to detect "concealed spells".
Doesn't this further minimize the usefulness of spells like misdirection, magic aura and non-detection?
Was this a problem for everyone in 3.5? I don't recall much discussion about it. Why/why not?
-James
You only had 5 or 6 0 level spells in 3.5, and most people memorized Read Magic and Prestidigitation more than detect magic, so you had maybe one or 2 castings of it. So, you hoarded that for when you really needed it.
You didn't have players going around saying 'I keep up Detect Magic at all times'.
Honestly I usually had it up at all times. Either through a wand of it, or a magical item that had it, or a feat. If not directly detect magic it was a perminancied arcane sight, or something similiar.
Honestly I usually had it up at all times. Either through a wand of it, or a magical item that had it, or a feat. If not directly detect magic it was a perminancied arcane sight, or something similiar.
Honestly I don't mind the thought of a roll to detect "concealed spells".
Doesn't this further minimize the usefulness of spells like misdirection, magic aura and non-detection?
Was this a problem for everyone in 3.5? I don't recall much discussion about it. Why/why not?
-James
You only had 5 or 6 0 level spells in 3.5, and most people memorized Read Magic and Prestidigitation more than detect magic, so you had maybe one or 2 castings of it. So, you hoarded that for when you really needed it.
You didn't have players going around saying 'I keep up Detect Magic at all times'.
Agreed, ther Warlock could do it at level 1.
Yep at will Detect Magic was in version 3.5 for a while at low levels.
I'd actually be ok with that. Any at will spell or spell like ability should begin to cause fatigue checks when used for more than CON minutes of continuous use. To reset the clock, you have to stop using it for 10 minutes (or CON minutes, whichever is less, so that you don't need to rest 10 minutes for using it 8 if your con is 8).
Might I suggest a number of times of casting the spell in a row? Detect magic can last up to 1 minute per caster level off of one casting. So rather than a time limit (which could get odd with spells that take longer than the time period to cast -- say casting something with a 10 minute casting time several times in a row) having a casting limit of Con castings in a row before the fortitude save to resist fatigue?
For the rest time I would suggest:
10 minutes - Con modifier - 2 for the endurance feat.
This way endurance has a purpose for casters too (indeed it should help with the fatigue rolls too) and those that have a low Con will show appropriate fatigue from the strain while those with a high con will again recover appropriately (it makes little sense for someone sicklier than you to recover faster than you do)?
The bottom line is that detect magic is no good as written in the rules. It is a zero level cantrip that is just too powerful and now overused by players. Even the suggestions, many of which are excellent, prove the point. All of these adjustments just to balance a zero level spell are ridiculous. Paizo has done a great job with their rules but they need to change detect magic. It has become an exploit rather than a tool.
The suggestion to return Detect Magic to 1st level is a great one and probably the easiest fix. It has worked wonderfully this way in the D&D rules for decades.
It is fairly clear in reading these posts who are the DMs and who are the players. Particularly those posts where people are throwing verbal darts at others. Try to keep in mind that the game must be "fair" to both the DM and the players. The DM wants to establish a challenge that cannot be circumnavigated by bad rules. The players need to be able to rely on their abilities without being mislead by DMs overcompensating for bad rules.
Paizo needs to fix detect magic.
No detect magic is fine as is. I've not had a problem with it as a GM or as a player. Some people have specific problems with it in their campaigns mostly from a flavor point, or from a general distaste for players having a radar to ping around at level 1.
Make no mistake -- detect magic as an at will offers nothing that I wasn't handling in advanced or second edition without the spell on a regular basis, and most of those methods still work in pathfinder. Heck regular continuous use of detect magic has already been proven to be easily doable since advanced even. So it's not like this is a "new" rule even.
It's not a "bad rule" the "problem" is GM unable or unwilling to cope and wanting a different flavor for their campaign.
Which is of course their choice (and I'm not saying it is a bad one for some campaigns) but that doesn't mean that as it is detect magic is a "bad rule" it simply means they need an alternate way to handle it in their campaigns.
I've always thought that Detect Magic counted as 'interacting with an illusion' when it came to invisibility and other illusion spells. It doesn't do anything unless they make their will save, at that point they see beyond the glamer effect and notice a magical aura.
But that's just me.
Detect Magic is fine as written.
It always amuses me a little to read posts which contain GM's making complaints that begin "A 0th level spell should not be able to do ..." I think it may point to a loss of perspective. In games, of course, there is always a spell caster with detect magic, but in the general population, this is a rare ability. So if someone uses a magical disguise or places a magical trap on a treasure chest, the majority of people who might interact with the disguised person or attempt unauthorized opening of the chest will be people without the ability to test for magic.
Magic illusions, invisibility, and hidden magical traps work on the majority of people, so they are effective spells in most circumstances. When a party of PCs is involved, these magics are likely to be less effective. It just means that the GM must either use other ways to fool/sneak past/trap-injure a party or find creative ways to get the party to drop its guard.
The simplest solution is to create enough false positives to make the party abandon the plan of not moving anywhere without first doing three rounds of detect magic. Mundane objects could be enchanted with anti-dirt spells that cause the items to never need dusting. Put magic lighting that triggers on when a party moves past trigger points that look identical to a magical trap trigger. Have a fairly low cost illusion magic item that provides a person with the illusion of a clear, youthful complexion. Have Unseen Servant spells used routinely to keep hallways clean.
If enough of these things crop up, the party will have to let their guard down and stop checking everything and everyone for magic.
If someone knows in advance they are going to be dealing with adventurers, then they likely have access to magic-disguising spells and the like. Detecting magic shouldn't be that hard. In a society that uses magic frequently for non-threatening purposes, however, knowing something is magical need not give the party actionable information.