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Finally realize you were going too easy on your players? Mine happened last night, when I hit my Templar (homebrew base class) with a scorching ray and he almost crapped his pants. They're all level 4 characters, and apparently I've just never used enough spells in combat, I think because I've secretly wanted them to succede. But last night, ONE spell made him fear for his character. I would have laughed if it hadn't meant I never challenged him.
I just want to know when other GMs realized they were making bonehead mistakes like that.
I realized after the fact when I let a character live after taunting the LE Overboss of Falcons Hallow by replacing his chew with a foul substitute.
One way to rachet up tension and hopefully get them to realize that things are going to get harder from here on out is to have them face opponents that will defeat them, but not kill them out right. Neutral villains are great for this IMHO. After they get defeated a few times by opponents who keep them alive afterward, when they face an opponent who clearly won't, they'll either run or work that much harder to defeat it.
I've been pretty good at keeping things on an even par. One thing to remember is that as a GM, you can throw anything you want at the PCs (within reason). Hard encounters make them appreciate the easier ones. Something players need to remember is that "retreat" is a combat tactical option. Just becouse you throw something really powerful at them, doesn't mean they need to go for the win when a TPK is likely to happen. Run away to kill another day.
i realized my mistakes after several failed short lived sandbox games. i would be stingy with wealth for the first few levels and overcompensate afterwards. i gave too many high powered goodies, such as gestalt, uber high point buy arrays (50+ in 3.5.) free pc optimization (including special optimized pets too), the eventual monty haul, and easy to kill APL+5 npcs who just happened to carry uber loot tailored to thier needs.
Something players need to remember is that "retreat" is a combat tactical option.
So beautifully true. Until my friends realized this, we had three near-TPKs in twice that many games. Now they like my games more than others they play because they feel like they could die at any time. :)
after several failed short lived sandbox games. i would be stingy with wealth for the first 5-7 levels, and eventually overcompensate to the point of a monty haul. i also used to have a tendency to give away too many pc power ups. such as gestalt and ludicrously high nonstandard point buy values. (try 50ish point buy in a 3.5 game)
I used to give away too much also, and I get a little stingier every time I DM. That is also a product of the players getting better.
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my players dumbfound me sometimes.
they think they can barge into a temple of a god of death, leave when they run low on spells, and come back to the temple the next day and nothing bad will happen.
Leave a bunch of dead bodies in a abandoned temple of death on my watch? i think not.
and hit the main tank for 15 points of con damage and watch them almost cry. WTF?
the response: "if i knew it was there i wouldn't have moved like that",
me: "next time try making (and passing) a spot check."
hey, i was nice enough to give plenty of items and time to research, you guys didn't do anything intelligent.
also, the main villain in my game is the sword of Ah-HA a +6 keen vorpal, unholy longsword with 10d6 call lightning, slay living and an ego of 36. they screwed up and unleashed it at level 1... so they have to put it back. so far its killed the last 3 towns they went to
after several failed short lived sandbox games. i would be stingy with wealth for the first 5-7 levels, and eventually overcompensate to the point of a monty haul. i also used to have a tendency to give away too many pc power ups. such as gestalt and ludicrously high nonstandard point buy values. (try 50ish point buy in a 3.5 game)I used to give away too much also, and I get a little stingier every time I DM. That is also a product of the players getting better.
try doing this to everyone (pc and npc alike) and a level 8 pc in a single round kills a CR 14 boss monster (CR is pre gestalt, advanced template, ecl race, and 50 point buy, but had 15 class levels facored in). but to say, the pcs were all powergamed pregens judged merely by Yabathewhat's feature point system.
My players are pretty clever, so as long as they don't run into weirdly bad luck with the dice, I can usually push them pretty hard. I've (accidentally) tossed absurdly tough encounters at them and had them come out on top - one 5th-level Paladin soloed a Hill Giant without breaking a sweat, for example.
I HAVE noticed that I've had a tendency to throw them up against non-casting humanoid opponents; they've fought very few enemies with spells/spell-like abilities, and not too many that have significant size advantages. Those two factors seem really important in striking fear in the hearts of the PCs, which I've got to get back too (they've gotten way too cocky).
My players are pretty clever, so as long as they don't run into weirdly bad luck with the dice, I can usually push them pretty hard. I've (accidentally) tossed absurdly tough encounters at them and had them come out on top - one 5th-level Paladin soloed a Hill Giant without breaking a sweat, for example.
I HAVE noticed that I've had a tendency to throw them up against non-casting humanoid opponents; they've fought very few enemies with spells/spell-like abilities, and not too many that have significant size advantages. Those two factors seem really important in striking fear in the hearts of the PCs, which I've got to get back too (they've gotten way too cocky).
My players just pummeled the Stolen Lands. I will have to start them off with a custom made boss level fight, just to get my edge back. It will also allow me to test out the witch class, and a fighter idea I have.
When I started DMing in 3.0:
Guilty of having given away too much.
Guilty of supporting characters who can SOLO a monster CR +5 above them without much trouble.
Guilty of not using size advantages, reach, and save or suck spells.
Guilty of not using aid another strategies and CM when the characters are engaging low level crowds.
Thankfully you learn from your mistakes.
I realised I had been going to easy on my players when I started to run the 'City of the Spider Queen' adventure LOL that one is evil. They didnt feared for their lives most of the time. So much so that my wife who was playing in it has said running it is grounds for divorce.
I try and make my games alittle in that vain now, they use some pretty evil ideas in that adventure I had never thought of before.
I go way easy on my group a lot of the time, though I tend to get harsher if the game isn't reaching a cinematic point... like....
A: The PCs are an encounter away from facing Dread Lord Tim, the BBEG
B: The PCs are facing Dread Lord Tim, the BBEG
C: The PCs are engaging in a routine encounter
I'm very willing to kill PCs in B and C, but not in A, because I feel it breaks up the narrative. I've accidentally killed PCs before and then taken it back... like the time I prismatic sprayed a group of PCs, rolled the poison that instant-kills, and the person who got hit by it failed their save. I made them get hit by two rays instead, flesh to stone and plane shift, since those would "kill" him but would be easily reversible.
I just don't like save-or-dies on bad guys who aren't serious business, you know?
Subdual damage.
Just rolled a giant snowball and it knocked down a character and caused subdual damage equal to his hitpoints.
He is staggered....
First round staggered will be getting up....
Second round he might be able to attack. likely will move
third round attack
If he takes a hit he will be unconscious.....
It's funny you should say that. I tend to run a fairly low magic world not just in tems but also in spells. Spell casters, buth divine and magic, are pretty rare, even more so in "monster" races. This makes those encounters will spell casters more memorable.
I am probabyl guilty of some similar things others had mentioned in terms of over-compensating with goodies at higher levels. I have always been a "1 UBER thing is better than 4 little things" kind of guy so I usually blow it buy giving out a couple high end items the affect balance.
My biggest fault is letting people have too many points to buy stats. I really need to break myself og tht at some point. It would make me more willing to give out +stat items.
I started to let the dice fall where they may, though I may be regretting the random magic loot they got from killing a dragon (Maximize Metamagic Rod), but that session a PC died twice in two hours.
I did realize earlier that I was playing nice with damamge output because I want to finish the story, and my rules on TPKs is that the adventure is over, roll a new char. Their loot is noted into the adventure for the next group that runs through to find. (which would be in a few years IRL)
From a borderline elderly DM...
I am running Rise of the Runelords again with a Paladin, Cleric, Monk, & a Sorcerer. Only one experienced player (nuther old fart). The rest are 22-27 but never really played before...but have been since Feb.
Best cure for making it too easy or hard for PCs?
1. Fudge! It's delicious and can make storytelling much better (the combat too).
2. Make copies of the player's sheets and LEARN the characters. That way you can help out by making the goblin warchief miss once (Chief Ripnugget was altered with a long spear and spring attack, seriously bad with the archers thrown in), or you need to knock them down a peg you can do it w/o killing them (my monk just ate a handful of mold from the caverns in Misgivings cause I made the save for one of the haunts ridiculous high, but knew he had immunity to disease, scared him tho). And most times, they have a knack for finding the best ways to step on their own junk no matter how clever.
3. Also, keep a running tab on the goodies. PCs are pretty tough as is, keep them in the gp limits when you can.
4. And lastly...background. Have the players make up their own but don't let them "orphaned traveler" into the group, that's just being lazy. Nothing like a wife/sister/uncle/son that lets them know that their PC is mortal. It does work, especially since the Paladin's father was recently a victim of the Skinsaw man (don't worry his older brother gets the inheritance).
We only play 1/2weeks but everyone is homesick for Sandpoint every other Sunday...
When they managed to storm the castle of Cheliax and retreat again with only 3 deaths out of a party of 10. Granted, they had a really good plan and I -did- force the party leader to kill his own parents, so it wasn't a total loss.
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It wasn't in Pathfinder/D&D, but I realized I was going to easy on my players in a Mutants & Masterminds campaign, when I had the villain throw a fire truck at the heroes. They freaked out and the two that didn't get hit by the area attack actually fled the scene for a couple of rounds before realizing they weren't behaving like heroes. LOL!
We have all made bonehead mistakes...
Ease the players into the idea that during combat someone might go down!
Take it slow, PCs use the minimum tactics, cooperationn they need to get through a game....
The PCs planning and tactics are a good indicator to you of how tough you are being....
That last part.
Okay. Before a certain game. People were carefree in my games. People were... Not min maxed. They just had fun.
Then I ran the undermountain module, and combined it into my own campaign that lead until level 24.
During that. I killed players. I made them fear every corner, every shadow, every unknown thing they didn't know about.
Now. They minmax in everyone of my games. They use tactics to the extreme, and they RARELY run in -guns a blazing-.
Also stopped all metagaming attempts. One player had read the module before. He leaped into a pit which had a summoning ooze in it. Which he could solo easily. He made the mistake of telling me. "Well. I've read it before, and there is only the little ooze in there."
The summoning ooze, became a summoning cube. And his character died. Now people warn other players to PLEASE not metagame and make it worse for others.
Seriously went from kind and gentle DM, to a monster dm that people do not screw around with. Which I frankly prefer.
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We have all made bonehead mistakes...
Ease the players into the idea that during combat someone might go down!
Take it slow, PCs use the minimum tactics, cooperationn they need to get through a game....
The PCs planning and tactics are a good indicator to you of how tough you are being....
That last part.
Okay. Before a certain game. People were carefree in my games. People were... Not min maxed. They just had fun.
Then I ran the undermountain module, and combined it into my own campaign that lead until level 24.
During that. I killed players. I made them fear every corner, every shadow, every unknown thing they didn't know about.
Now. They minmax in everyone of my games. They use tactics to the extreme, and they RARELY run in -guns a blazing-.
Also stopped all metagaming attempts. One player had read the module before. He leaped into a pit which had a summoning ooze in it. Which he could solo easily. He made the mistake of telling me. "Well. I've read it before, and there is only the little ooze in there."
The summoning ooze, became a summoning cube. And his character died. Now people warn other players to PLEASE not metagame and make it worse for others.
Seriously went from kind and gentle DM, to a monster dm that people do not screw around with. Which I frankly prefer.
I like that.
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I'd say that being "easy" on your PC's can become a habit, unless you modify the game in-flight as it were.
For instance, I pitted a group of 5 against an appropriate CR monster encounter, and they pwned my bad guys. Excellent tactics, excellent use of skills/feats/equipment, and they just waltzed through.
The exact SAME group, faced with a Gibbering Mouther, got totally PWNED by the thing. It was a lower CR, it was really just there for me to screw with them and see if they would fall for it, and it just about TPK'd them.
Consequently, I challenge my party at every opportunity. I start with an NPC template, and then fly off the cuff if I have to, just to make it fun and exciting. I don't take away from huge luck on their side...so if the Smiting Evil Pally crits on a power attacking charge, well, good for him! I dont monkey with that NPC, its usually toast anyhow.
But if my group is wading through monsters left and right, I might add 10-20 hp to each one. The rare occasions my party has asked about it, I have them roll or cast spells...were the beasts enchanted? Did they have divine or infernal powers most fell which made them tougher? Perhaps they were a hardier variety of goblin/orc/beasty. This usually suffices, and kind of gives me the ability to include "normal" versions of the original monster as "mooks" or "minions".
GM: "Ok, after a tough fight with what appeared to be orcs, but were much tougher, you are there panting and cleaning your weapons, what do you do?"
Player1: "I use spellcraft to see if these orcs were enchanted!"
Player2: "I use Knowledge:Nature to see if they are a different breed of orc!"
Player3: "I just thank my lucky stars I didnt have to burn all my evocation spells!"
GM: "Ok, your spellcraft reveals nothing, they appear to not have been enchanted, but player2, your check reveals that these orcs are about 15% heavier and have a tougher skin. They are slightly more reddish/brown, and have larger protruding foreheads. Perhaps they are a heretofore unknown type of Orc, much tougher than usual."
I need to learn to go easier...
In 3.5, RttToEE, 34 dead PCs (11 to one player). Then AoW, 26 dead PCs. A TPK in a homebrew campaign in between, another TPK Iron Heroes game, as well. My upcoming PF RotR game, I need to do more work to make sure that encounters are tailored to the strength of the group and not let the luck of the dice dictate how long or how fun the game is.
I'm running a revised Age of Worms for Pathfinder currently...
We are two sessions in and they are just barely into the Whispering Cairn, so far, no deaths. But all they've fought have been a few Dark Creepers (an addition of mine) in Diamond Lake and a small pack of wolves in the Cairn.
I'll let you know if this doesn't prove deadly enough, but I think that AoW will take care of itself with some PF updates and revisions here and there.
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I was going a little easy on my current group of players (playing kingmaker, just hit book 2) because they're fairly new. Then they started getting brave, and did so against opponents that were either stronger or smarter than before, and it got interesting. At one point two of the four were knocked out with half the bad guys also still standing.
IMO it's okay to start out "going easy" to a certain extent for the first couple of levels (unless they're just getting stupidly brave) then ramp it up as they start pissing off people with real power. After all, no-one cares if you killed a rat in a sewer, but kill a mob boss's right-hand man? Bad ju-ju.
Then again, there always seems to be a TPK by level 10 when I DM... And with a policy of "new campaign!" on a TPK, this puts a downer on my prospects of an epic level campaign. I may have to change this policy. Especially since my only good campaign idea ATM is an epic-level one to be sure.
Then again, there always seems to be a TPK by level 10 when I DM...
Your players don't beleive in running away?
Your players don't beleive in running away?
Then again, there always seems to be a TPK by level 10 when I DM...
My own players have a "Leave no man behind" policy that sometimes gets them in over their heads.