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I like gestalt rules for great flavor even more than 'super powerful' builds. One of my favorite past characters was a Paladin/Wizard (Necromancer) follower of Wee Jas (Greyhawk campaign setting). Yes, I know Sorcerer would have been better for limiting stats and Paladin prevents use of all the undead and otherwise evil Necromancy spells... didn't care. I played him primarily as a Wizard (no armor, wands and scrolls, et cetera) who just happened to also wear a sword. Primarily did battlefield control and buffing... though ironically the Necromancer also wound up being the party 'face' somehow. Had great saves, resistances and immunities, healing, great HP and BAB for a wizard, wide assortment of utility spells/scrolls, et cetera... basically a great generalist able to contribute significantly to any situation except for Rogue type tasks (scouting, traps, et cetera).
Best scene of the campaign - the dread Arch Lich Big Bad enemy traps said Paladin/Necromancer away from the rest of the party by sealing the chamber with an immovable stone block and then begins his evil villain speech(tm) about how he will now destroy the vastly inferior wizard and raise him as an undead abomination to send against his friends. I use the Antimagic Field scroll I'd been hanging on to over a year (real world time) for just such an eventuality and slowly draw the sword that had been collecting dust at my hip for the past three levels. Game master spends the next five minutes making pained sounds while hopelessly searching for some way in which his Big Bad Arch Lich is NOT completely screwed.
It isn't how powerful the character is. It is how much fun you have playing them. :]
I personally think you can have a lot of fun with some combos:
Alchemist (mind chemist) / Witch
Paladin / Bard
Magus / Admixture school Wizard
Barbarian / Dragon Disciple
Monk /Gunslinger
I like the idea of a ranger/rogue. A sorc/wizard sounds fun too.
I have to ask why would someone gestalt a full spell caster class wouldn't that just make you worse then other characters such as a fighter/barbarian or full sorcerer because your spell lvls would cap at a very low spell level.
A player of mine brought up a very good question the other day, and that is if you have two favored classes (such as you are a half-elf or take a certain feat from the APG), how does that mesh with the Gestalt System? Do they get the benefit of both, or only one? Especially with the advent of the new favored class bonuses in the APG, I wonder how this might affect a gestalt game. Any ideas?a two class combination becomes your gestalt class.
EXAMPLE: fighter/barbarian is a separate class than fighter/ranger.The Gestalt was NOT built for Pathfinder so any answer here is a home rule answer, keep that in mind.
I'd say that under the Gestalt rules for overlapping class features what the half-elf bonus would mean that at each level you can choose what class you draw that bonus for, I would not allow both.
If at levels one through five you are a "fighter/wizard" and at level six you become a rogue/wizard, you just multiclassed. Houserule? I call that common sense.
I have to ask why would someone gestalt a full spell caster class wouldn't that just make you worse then other characters such as a fighter/barbarian or full sorcerer because your spell lvls would cap at a very low spell level.
no
Read this...http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm
I have to ask why would someone gestalt a full spell caster class wouldn't that just make you worse then other characters such as a fighter/barbarian or full sorcerer because your spell lvls would cap at a very low spell level.
You'd have full casting plus full access to whatever your other class is. I'm not sure why you think you're spells cap.
Then their overpowered, are they not?
Gestalt characters are good for high powered campaigns, or parties with 3 or less characters. Or both.
I think a paladin//rogue would be fun. Full BAB, all good Saves + Charisma to saves, 1d10 HD, 8+ skill points, evasion, smite, healing, sneak attack, and all sorts of defensive and offensive capabilities, some spell casting, and a strong moral compass. :-P
Synthesist/Barbarian
What makes AM BARBARIAN worse?
Being your own mount.
Then their overpowered, are they not?
Not as much as it might first seem. The major limiting factor is that everyone is still only allowed one standard action, one move action, and one swift action each round. So your gestalt character who has full casting progression alongside a full BAB, still has to decide whether to spend his turn casting a spell or bringing the hurt with his weapon.
Gestalt generally leaves characters with more hit points, better saves, better AC, and more options each combat round.
It's not the overwhelming power boost that it sometimes looks like initially.
Barbarian/druid
or Barbarian synthesist summoner
I like the flavor of an elven ranger/wizard or even druid/wizard.
They are considerably more powerful now than they would be in 3.5 because the base classes are that much more powerful, with a lot more ways to munchkin them. Pathfinder Gestalts can essentially curbstomp most 3.5 gestalts.
This is very true. For instance, a Pathfinder Paladin/Monk doing a smite evil followed by a flurry of blows is going to be much more devastating than a 3.5 era Paladin/Monk doing the same.
However, my point was to Theos' concern that a full casting progression would throw a gestalt character out of whack with other gestalt characters. And my point was namely that the action economy limits things enough where that's not as big an issue in practice as it might seem on paper.
Can someone still find any one of a babillion super sweet synergistic combinations of class abilities that makes them exceedingly good? Absolutely! (and that's part of the fun in the gestalt rules) But having a full casting progression alongside whatever other class you pick isn't going to be as gonzo-over-the-top-game-breaking as one might fear.
Of all the classes that threaten whatever balance there is in gestalt, I think it's the summoner. A full power eidolon ON TOP of whatever other class you have paired with summoner? In my opinion, that's a MAJOR edge if ever there was one as far as action economy goes.
Dal (or anyone), If you feel like running a Gestalt PBP send me a message and I'm totally in.
Finally got to play a gestalt game, and I have to say my character who is currently a synthesist 9/(monk 3/scout ninja 6) is awesome if only because of his "scout's pounces" and early greater invisibility. And yes... his eidolon form is a multi-tailed fox. I couldn't resist the Naruto reference XD
I *hate* running into DR though!
Even avoiding magic classes has a lot of nasty potential. Ninja/fighter Ninja/Monk Ranger/rogue etc etc etc
Even avoiding magic classes has a lot of nasty potential. Ninja/fighter Ninja/Monk Ranger/rogue etc etc etc
Personally, the class combo that scares me the most... Ranger/Paladin. Getting favored enemy and smite on the same foe = massive death. Though, he'd have to go Guide if he wants it to be very consistent I guess.
People underestimate the power of 3E gestalt possibilities...
Factotum//Wizard adds int to almost everything and can take extra standard actions and auto penetrate SR.
Monk//Druid can actually pounce with flurry + 5 or so secondary natural weapons b/c in 3E there was no restriction on attaching natural attacks to the end of a flurry. Oh, and he can fly and apply his monk speed bonus to his wildshape form's fly/burrow/etc.. speed b/c in 3E, it's not limited to land speed only. Oh, and wildshape itself is far stronger.
Just two of my personal favorites. My favorite is probably Factotum//Warblade, but that has almost no casting and thus is inelligible to be called powerful. I just like it because it has the best HD, BAB, and skills, and adds int to everything, not almost everything, and in some cases adds it twice. And gets a lot of encounter-based resources to both troubleshoot and kick ass in melee.
Pathfinder gestalts...hmm...
Paladin with Sorc or Summoner is definitely strong. Master of Many Styles Qingong Monk with Druid is pretty on par w/ the 3E monk//druid combo. Fighter or Ranger with Ninja or Vivvisectionist Beastmorph Alchemist would be a good not-so-glass canon, albeit lacking in casting and thus weak, it'd be fun at least. Empyreal Sorc with Cleric or Druid has tremendous wisdom focus. Sorc with Oracle also works, but that class is noticeably weaker than cleric or druid.
It would not have worked pre-level 10, but my current PF game is actually gestalt, and I play an archer Ranger // Menhir Savant Druid. DM allows 3E stuff, so I have alt. class features to replace any overlapping class features, took a domain to avoid the companion overlap, and have Bow of the Wintermoon (auto adjusts to your strength) with Sizing (swift to make the weapon any size you want) property, both from Magic Item Compendium, to on the fly adjust for my shapechanging. I also have Zen Archery feat (works just like the class feature). I mostly am a huge air or earth elemental, or smaller version when space limitations require. It is...quite devastating. Like, the DM triples the hp of things we face because myself and the other PC (it's a 2 person party) do such high damage.
Wizard/Sorcerer(Sage variant bloodline) would work well, being all about the INT, if not the most exciting Sorc bloodline. Might possibly want to Crossblooded it to keep it a bit interesting, though I'm not sure you are allowed to crossblood the wildblood bloodlines.
Of course, an oracle//sorcerer would be a fun uber-spellcaster.
My current party includes a bard/rogue, gunslinger/ranger(crossbow style ranger for pistol feats), inquisitor/alchemist, and what scares me the most, the barbarian(brutal pugilist)/monk(martial artist). This campaign is in its infancy so my opinion may change.
Im running a game for some friends that is gestalt. They have a Bard/Cleric, Inquisitor/Magus(broad study of course), and a Monk/Fighter(so many feats). I made a guide for them that is a dual cursed (blind/deaf) Oracle/Gunslinger. He's been a blast to play.
Correctly built gestalt characters are retardedly broken. My friends who are less experienced at PF are playing a gestalt campaign. My character soloed a monster 9 levels higher (vivisectionist 4/cleric 3/mystic theurge 3/rogue 3/heretic 1 vs. the 16 HD wraith from the deck of many things). I came back the next week as a character with 3 levels less than the rest of the party and it was more balanced.
I play synthesists a lot. You have to remember that the eidolon battle armor is like a body sack - your natural arms and legs do not go through. Also, it counts as an 'armor slot' so no armor (other than bracers of armor) with your battle armor.
From my experiences Magus and Summoner classes do not work well together when multiclassing.
While I cannot speak on saves and such, as someone stated, path finder base classes can munchkin a lot when you look at examples like barbarian rogue. With the archetypes, you can get sneak attacks on charges with scout rogues, with rogue powers you can have bleed attack and crippling strike on sneak attacks, and with the rage powers, you can pounce with barbarians.
That means that as soon as level 10 rolls around, you can make every turn a charge, do up to five attacks (TWF and bite), do up to 25d6 sneak attack damage, 5 points of bleed, and take off up to 10 strength damage to the opponent that the opponent will not likely live long enough to care about. Sure, it takes some feats to do that properly, but hey, you can make up for it with rogue talents and a couple of rage powers. Plus a ton of skill points helps to lighten that load as well. Also, you have 10d12 of health at that level and with invulnerable rager, 5 DR.
Ah looked at the saves, only missing a good will save. Otherwise, just plain scary. Worse if you got put under a spell and face off against your allies (this is Gestalt, so you know the GM would play hard ball with that). So you are practically like a suped up version of the barbarian's wild rager archetype. But again, there are rage powers that help with that.
If I where to play a Gestalt these are the ones I would be interested in...
Inquisitor/Paladin = absolutely destroy Evil
Magus/Sythesist Summoner = Now you can cast and attack like a real Summoner
Inquisitor/Ranger
Monk/Kensi Magus
Emyperical Sorc/Cleric
Sorc/Oracle
Monk/Sythesist Summoner
Thats off the top of my head. I really like the Inquisitor/Paladin. Expecially if you allowed CG variant Paladins.
Ive built afew diff gestalts and id have to say afew combos ive found to be fairly potent are:
Paladin(oath of vengeance)/Oracle of Battle
Barbarian(Invul Rager)/Fighter(2Handed or Weapon Master)
Ranger/Zen Archer Monk
Obviously any 2 spellcasters classes mashed together will be powerful no matter what they are..
For my own use I prefer:
Sage Sorcerer//Wizard
Only one spellcasting stat, insane number of spells, and every feat you take will enhance the abilities of both classes. If I played this character, I would actually leave most of my Wizard spell slots open to fill when I need a specific spell and use the Sorcerer spells in combat.
Sage Sorcerer//Rogue
Full sorcerer casting, 3/4 BAB, sneak attack, an insane number of skills, two good saves, and a bunch of Rogue talents. Probably be human, with a +2 Int bonus and the Human Sorcerer Favored Class bonus.
Gunslinger//Rogue
Freaking Han Solo, baby! Han shot first and Greedo took Sneak Attack damage. Booyah!
Assuming 3.5 material is ok: Artificer//Wizard
Build the Artificer as a blaster, and use the Wizard bonus feats to make sure you have all the metamagic feats you want. Get the feats to cut cost of creating either wands or staffs down to 1/4 normal, and watch as your enemies die like Kenny during a South Park marathon.
I can't say they are the most powerful, but they are the ones I would enjoy.
Correctly built gestalt characters are retardedly broken. My friends who are less experienced at PF are playing a gestalt campaign. My character soloed a monster 9 levels higher (vivisectionist 4/cleric 3/mystic theurge 3/rogue 3/heretic 1 vs. the 16 HD wraith from the deck of many things). I came back the next week as a character with 3 levels less than the rest of the party and it was more balanced.
I play synthesists a lot. You have to remember that the eidolon battle armor is like a body sack - your natural arms and legs do not go through. Also, it counts as an 'armor slot' so no armor (other than bracers of armor) with your battle armor.
From my experiences Magus and Summoner classes do not work well together when multiclassing.
Mystic Theurge is not allowed in Gestalt. Also, Rogue and Vivisectionist levels do not stack for sneak attack unless taken linearly rather than Gestalting.
The one guy in my campaign is going to be a summoner/paladin that rides his pouncing eidolon into combat. Nasty, nasty, nasty.
Taking something from another thread: White haired witch and hexcrafter magus. The witch provides the attack abilities and the magus provides the hexes(and black is white and cats chase dogs).
Unless someone tells me that natural attacks do not count for this, you could spellcombat for one hair attack, and then do a touch spell and deliver it with a second hair attack. With arcane accuracy, you can do both damage and hit with Int, so Str becomes a complete dump stat. Plus getting items to raise one stat alone is cheaper than dividing it between you melee and casting stats.
The hair would grow by 5ft for every 4th level, getting out to 30 ft at level 20. I mean, that is the entire reason people use the Aberrant Bloodline, right? Now it can do damage and grapple from the same distance. Hexcrafter magus gets back the hexes the witch traded off. Only real flaws are the 3/4th bab, health, and poor reflex save.
The one guy in my campaign is going to be a summoner/paladin that rides his pouncing eidolon into combat. Nasty, nasty, nasty.
Not nearly as nasty as a synthesist that smites with masses of natural attacks in addition to iteratives.
Holy thread necro :) Anyhoo, I support the "figure out what you want as a primary class, and pick a gestalt pair that gives you extra secondary bonuses that won't make you trip over yourself during action phases."
Every Pathfinder adventure Ive played with my group has been gestalt. I made a monk/Unarmed Fighter last version. A friend now is playing a Monk/Magus which seems pretty fun. I've got a Rogue Knife fighter/Fighter two weaponarchetype =)
my favorite gestalt of all time, monk/3.5 swashbuckler. to be fair i rolled really well on scores but i became the the hit and run king.
About to start a campaign going Vivisectionist BeastMorph Alchemist/Hexcrafter MAgus. Not as optimal since mutagen nerfs your int a bit but given the insane potential defenses and offense I can have it looks to be killer.
Paladin/Archaeologist is a solid build. Good skill selection, high survivability. At some point, you need a two-level dip into Pathfinder Savant to pick up heal for your Bard casting.
Monk/Inquisitor has a lot of synergy. High saving throws and the ability to negate almost any effect that allows a save.
Anyone try a Monk/Ranger? Not a caster, but interesting damage possibilities. Maybe a Master of Styles/Ranger?
I've got a ninja/inquisitor going right now, for a few minutes a day it can be utterly horrifying. I'm still deciding on what to do after I get Stalwart though, as none of the other class features entice me.
Paladin/Magus - Sacred Shield/Blackblade Archtypes - pretty fun and deadly.