So, a long time lurker has a question concerning the Arcane Trickster's 10th level ability, Surprise Spells.
My basic concept is to go 4 levels of sorcerer, three of rogue, and 10 arcane trickster. Coupled with practiced caster for the full caster level and the spell Nondetection, we end up with a Trickster that leaves your average monster unable to find him/her.
well as the creature itself.
My question is this: Say I am invisible and none of the monsters have noticed me (flat-footed they all be, as Yoda would put it). I cast a Delayed Blast Fireball against a room of five or six monsters, none of which have any resistance to fire. Would they all eat the 17d6 damage from the spell (assuming they fail the reflex save and are all in range), in addition to the 7d6 sneak attack damage I gain from rogue and prestige class levels?
Yes.
Not necessarily "eat" the damage.
Yes, you would do 24d6 damage. But they could still save for half (or none with Evasion).
Note that the extra Sneak Attack damage is the same kind of damage as the spell, so in this case, that would be 24d6 of fire damage (not 17d6 fire and 7d6 non-fire), which means it might be relevant if the enemies are resistant or immune to fire.
Of course. But it does give me basis for the sorcerer who, for dropping ninth level spells (Which are shiny), can gain 7d6 sneak attack with all of his spells so long as the opponent is flat-footed. Hello ray spells...XP
Of course. But it does give me basis for the sorcerer who, for dropping ninth level spells (Which are shiny), can gain 7d6 sneak attack with all of his spells so long as the opponent is flat-footed. Hello ray spells...XP
Actually, most ray spells can sneak attack already. Any spell that is touch or ranged touch and deals damage can be sneak attacked with, from Ray of Frost to Searing Light. Surprise Spells gives you the ability to sneak attack with any damaging spell, not just spells that require an attack roll.
And sneak-fireball sounds like fun, but honestly probably the best spell in the game to slap Suprise Spells on is Magic Missile. One first level spell and you get to sneak attack five people with no attack roll or save for half damage. Admittedly you have to target five different targets - you can't "double-up" the sneak attack - but that's equally true of fireball.
I'm pretty sure that the ruling was always that for multiple targeted spells (Scorching Ray being the one I have seen talked about the most) you only get the sneak attack on only one of targets. I can't find anything in Pathfinder that would change this, but I also can't find anything saying that this is correct in pathfinders either.
And sneak-fireball sounds like fun, but honestly probably the best spell in the game to slap Suprise Spells on is Magic Missile. One first level spell and you get to sneak attack five people with no attack roll or save for half damage. Admittedly you have to target five different targets - you can't "double-up" the sneak attack - but that's equally true of fireball.
Hrm...though, in comparison to the other abilities it almost negates the effect. Yes, you can sneak attack on an area-of-effect spell, but it only effects one target? Seems a little weak when you compare it to say, Crippling Critical (Duelist) or Spell Critical (Eldritch Knight). Though I do see it as a balancing issue.
Hrm...can we get a definite answer as to whether or not everyone eats the sneak attack damage from the multiple attacks (I don't think the magic missile sneak attack of doom works here, as it isn't an attack and doesn't gain the bonus damage from point blank shot, but I could be wrong).
After re-reading the "Surprise Spells " ability on the PRD now I'm agreeing with Maxastro idea that all magic missiles would get the sneak attack as long as they each hit different flat footed targets. As the ability say "targets" in the description, each target you hit with a "Surprise Spell" should take sneak attack damage.
However for normal sneak attacks with spells I still believe my early statement is correct.
From the PRD
Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.
I'm pretty sure that the ruling was always that for multiple targeted spells (Scorching Ray being the one I have seen talked about the most) you only get the sneak attack on only one of targets. I can't find anything in Pathfinder that would change this, but I also can't find anything saying that this is correct in pathfinders either.
And sneak-fireball sounds like fun, but honestly probably the best spell in the game to slap Suprise Spells on is Magic Missile. One first level spell and you get to sneak attack five people with no attack roll or save for half damage. Admittedly you have to target five different targets - you can't "double-up" the sneak attack - but that's equally true of fireball.
Skyguard, that makes a lot more sense and I agree. Of course, you have to deal with the pesky wizard who decides to cast shield, but that is what Disintegrate, Chain-Lightning (I believe each bounce would give sneak attack bonus damage) or Freezing Sphere are for.
I'm pretty sure that the ruling was always that for multiple targeted spells (Scorching Ray being the one I have seen talked about the most) you only get the sneak attack on only one of targets. I can't find anything in Pathfinder that would change this, but I also can't find anything saying that this is correct in pathfinders either.
I thought this was handled like Manyshot - the only the first simultaneous shot at a given target is a sneak attack, but shots at multiple targets are each sneak attacks.
In any case, the wording on Suprise Spells certainly does seem to imply that every target gets sneak-attacked.
Surprise Spells is most useful with the larges area effect spell you can cast, Meteor Swarm, Cone of Cold, etc.
Sneak attack only applies to the first attack in a volley. Scorching Ray, Magic Missile etc. would only apply sneak attack once. As has been said, this was clarified in 3.5 and PF has not overruled that.
I know sneak attack only applied to the first arrow in a 3.5 Manyshot, but I couldn't recall anything about it only applying once to multiple Scorching Rays. I read the 3.5 FAQ and couldn't find anything in there about it, but I finally found an old "Rules of the Game" article from 2004.
Sometimes, you make multiple attacks with the same attack roll, such as when you use the Manyshot feat, or you make multiple attack rolls as part of the same attack, such as with the scorching ray spell. When you do so, only the first attack in the volley can be a sneak attack.
Darn, there it is in black and white. The RotG articles were just barely official even for D&D though. I wonder if anything in Pathfinder corroborates or denies this ruling. I understand not getting multiple SNA damage on Manyshot since it is all one attack roll, but Scorching Ray is 3 attack rolls, so why can't you do SNA damage 3 times? I mean, an obvious answer would be that Skip said so once in an article 6 years ago, but I wonder if there's anything in the RAW (3.5 or PF) about this and what other people's opinions on it might be.
My girlfriend was already a little upset at how wimpy her Arcane Trickster is. She was really looking forward to stuff like SNA on multiple Scorching Rays. The poor AT is behind enough in spellcasting that she needs her SNA damage just to make up for what's lost from higher level spells or metamagic. I guess she won't get a high damage combo now until she hits Transformation at 15th level. That's an awfully long time to wait.
I've always thought the Scorching ray example odd, especially if you are using it on multiple enemies. I think it should at least apply sneak attack to each enemy hit once.
Arcane Trickster's underpowered certainly, until 10th lvl, then it's OP - unless you use PrC to get there. Rogue 1/Wiz 3/Assassin 1/AT X. Or if 3.5's allowed Rogue 1/Wiz 5/Unseen Seer 1/AT X.
If your GF really pissed and you're feeling generous i'd let her re-train using the re-training rules in PHBII.
Arcane Trickster's underpowered certainly, until 10th lvl, then it's OP - unless you use PrC to get there. Rogue 1/Wiz 3/Assassin 1/AT X.
I don't think that works. Assassin needs 5 ranks of stealth which you can't have as a Rog 1/Wiz 3, unless I missed something.
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Are we sure you can Sneak Attack with a Magic Missile?
The upside of the spell is that it has its own 'homing device', which is why it auto-hits, without any input from the caster (ie, no attack roll).
Hence, the caster cannot apply any adjustments to its flight-path, once it has left his finger.
Meaning the missile simply curls to follow the the general movement of the target, and hits them in a random part of the body, rather than a specific organ, desired by the caster, like in the neck, or the eye, etc.
This was the reasoning given for why the spell could never score a crit, and could be extrapolated to forbid precision damage being added.
Though I'm open to being proven wrong by a designer.
Are we sure you can Sneak Attack with a Magic Missile?
Not with a normal Sneak Attack, no. Spells that don't have an attack roll (normally) can't do Sneak Attack damage.
However, when using the Surprise Spell class feature of the Arcane Trickster, you can apply your Sneak Attack damage to each target, just as with an area spell. Surprise Spell is a specific exception to the general rule: "At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed." (emphasis mine)
Arcane Trickster's underpowered certainly, until 10th lvl, then it's OP - unless you use PrC to get there. Rogue 1/Wiz 3/Assassin 1/AT X.I don't think that works. Assassin needs 5 ranks of stealth which you can't have as a Rog 1/Wiz 3, unless I missed something.
m'bad! not having a good day was i? oh well, yeh - R 1/W 4/A 1/AT X.
Never actually done it that way myself tho, I much prefer the Unseen Seer entry. You get +1d6 SA and +1 Spell progression.
Tanis, I'm not the DM in that game. I also doubt that sneaky spells make the AT overpowered. At best it might make up for all the damage lost from not having higher level spells and higher level slots for metamagic. AT is a nice utility class for scouting and trap finding, but it is tough to see it being OP given the volley ruling.
K, let's have a look at it.
Scorching Ray = 12d6
Rogue 1/Wizard 5/ Unseen Seer 1/ Arcane Trickster 5 = 11th lvl caster/ 12th lvl character.
Rogue 1 - 1d6 SA
U/Seer 1- 1d6 SA
A/Trickster - 3d6 SA
Rogue's Vest - 1d6 SA
So we're looking at 6d6 sneak attack, so now we do a scorching ray while invisible:
each ray does on average 21 hp + 14 from the scorching ray...*3=105 hp...in one round.
Add feats like Metamagic Focus and make that an Empowered, Maximised Scorching Ray. A 12th lvl character should be able to afford a Metamagic Rod, Quicken Lesser.
Add that original one that does 232 dmg and you can see how this can break. Even using PF only it's pretty bad.
Rogue 1/Wiz 3/Assassin 1/AT 6 is:
Sneak Attack +6d6
Caster lvl 9
@ Character lvl 11. Take the trait that gives you +2 CL
dmg is only an average of 30 per ray = 90 + 225 for the Empowered, Maximised, Quickened Scorching Ray - you end up with 315 in 1 rnd...at 11th lvl. I've said it before, and i'll say it again - that's broken.
I accidentally used the term "sneaky spells" instead of "surprise spells" in my last post. My contention was basically that the AT isn't overpowered due to the surprise spells ability and certainly isn't overpowered with only one sneak attack per volley (as per the Sage ruling)
As to whether or not allowing sneak attack damage on all the attacks in a "volley" spell would be overpowered, I guess that's part of the question at hand. Your analysis seems pretty damning in this regards, but it also appears slightly flawed to me. Perhaps I'm just missing some details or we disagree on some rulings though.
First off, you'd need 4 Wizard levels for the Assassin build (as per the previous discussion). This leaves you with just 5 AT levels and a sneak attack of 4d6 instead of the 6d6 you were using (which I think would actually be 5d6 even with 6 AT levels). That said, I think using Assassin to qualify for AT while preserving your caster level is very clever though many games don't allow for evil PCs.
Anyhow, how is the Assassin fitting Empowered Maximized Scorching Rays into his 5th level spell slots? I know there's a trait for -1 metamagic cost, but you've used your magical trait to gain +2 caster levels. A full wizard wouldn't have to do that, so he'd be the one who could actually cast these spells. If you're using the 3.5 Arcane Thesis feat I suppose all bets are off and we can let the madness ensue (I love that feat, but even I'll admit it is a bit over the top). If we're sticking to PF I think the numbers should look more like this.
Wizard - Maximized Empowered Scorching Ray: 24 plus half of 4d6 averages 31 damage per ray for a total of 93 damage
AT (per Sage's ruling): Maximized Scorching Ray - 24*3=72 plus 4d6 sneak averages 86 total damage
AT (with sneak on all attacks): Maximized Scorching Ray - 24*3=72 plus 12d6 sneak averages 114 damage
Without the Sage's ruling the AT is a bit ahead in damage, but it doesn't appear to be a game breaking difference, and she had to qualify to get sneak damage somehow, possibly by spending a round and a 4th level slot casting greater invis. With the Sage's ruling the AT, who is specialized in causing extra damage, actually does less damage than a regular wizard.
I've done some analysis of how throwing magic items (lesser rod of quicken, etc) into the mix would turn out, and I think that worst case the AT might pull ahead of the wizard in damage by about 1/3. If the wizard gets creative and starts using the gold the AT spent on metamagic rods to arm an improved familiar with wands even that advantage could start to disappear though.
I figure that comparison of an AT to other casters is the only way to go here. Whether or not the Scorching Ray spell itself is out of control is a separate question. I think that at higher levels fire resistance/immunity tends to balance it out pretty well though.
EDIT: I was only looking at Scorching Ray here. Telekinesis is another issue altogether. It would be a very strong spell for an AT without the Sage's ruling. By itself it appears roughly balanced vs a full Rogue's TWF. Tanis' idea of using a Lesser Rod of Quicken would potentially let the AT tack on a significant amount of extra damage though.
K, let's have a look at it.
Scorching Ray = 12d6
Rogue 1/Wizard 5/ Unseen Seer 1/ Arcane Trickster 5 = 11th lvl caster/ 12th lvl character.
Rogue 1 - 1d6 SA
U/Seer 1- 1d6 SA
A/Trickster - 3d6 SA
Rogue's Vest - 1d6 SASo we're looking at 6d6 sneak attack, so now we do a scorching ray while invisible:
each ray does on average 21 hp + 14 from the scorching ray...*3=105 hp...in one round.
Add feats like Metamagic Focus and make that an Empowered, Maximised Scorching Ray. A 12th lvl character should be able to afford a Metamagic Rod, Quicken Lesser.
Add that original one that does 232 dmg and you can see how this can break. Even using PF only it's pretty bad.
Rogue 1/Wiz 3/Assassin 1/AT 6 is:
Sneak Attack +6d6
Caster lvl 9
@ Character lvl 11. Take the trait that gives you +2 CLdmg is only an average of 30 per ray = 90 + 225 for the Empowered, Maximised, Quickened Scorching Ray - you end up with 315 in 1 rnd...at 11th lvl. I've said it before, and i'll say it again - that's broken.
Yeah sure cause the fighter has only been doing that how long at this point?
Also each of those rays will lose damage to any energy resistance, and spell resistance is becoming pretty common at those ranges too which could kill a spell or two.
Finally how many times a day is he going to do this? Invisibility is not fool proof at level 12 either (even if you are using greater invisibility) so I would also point out there is no garantuee that you'll actually get your sneak attack dice.
Also to say that the metamagic rod of quicken causes this to be "broken" is completely ignoring what a wizard could do with that same rod at the same level -- or a bard for that matter (hello bardic music, haste and good hope all on the same round!).
I figure that comparison of an AT to other casters is the only way to go here. Whether or not the Scorching Ray spell itself is out of control is a separate question.
Also to say that the metamagic rod of quicken causes this to be "broken" is completely ignoring what a wizard could do with that same rod at the same level -- or a bard for that matter (hello bardic music, haste and good hope all on the same round!).
Agreed to both. I've probably confused the issue by using the example with a AT. It honestly doesn't matter which caster you do it with, it's broken IMO.
@Devilkiller: Yeh, you're right there about Empowered, Maximized being higher than 5th lvl slot - if we're talking PF only. Still too much IMO. With 3.5 it's down right BS.
@Abraham: I don't know at what level you can get a Fighter to do 225 pts of dmg/rnd, but can you show me an example please? I'm actually writing up a Fighter at the moment so I'd love to see it (no sarcasm intended).
Yes, I'm aware of Energy Resistance and SR, but that is not the standard, and obviously you'd be able to use it against them as well. What's that Fire immunity? That's cool, that means you have Cold vulnerability and...here's my Cone of Cold. So yeh, you're not going to do this trick all the time, but it's very useful.
For example what about Meteor Swarm? You're doing 4*2d6 (and if we're a 10th lvl AT, just to confuse things again) you're also doing 4*SA + 24d6 dmg. Holy crap!?!
For example what about Meteor Swarm? You're doing 4*2d6 (and if we're a 10th lvl AT, just to confuse things again) you're also doing 4*SA + 24d6 dmg. Holy crap!?!
Wizards and Arcane Tricksters both get that 24d6 area damage, so I'm not sure why an extra 7d6 to one target merits a "Holy crap!?!". It's been established -- to my vast disappointment in re: telekinesis -- that sneak attack isn't nearly so simple or nice as "I get it if I get a roll to hit."
Assuming they all hit and no saves are made, that's 32d6 (avg 112) damage, by a wizard with no sneak attack, possible at character level 17. It's 39d6 (avg 136.5) damage with sneak attack, possible at character level 19 (maybe) or 20.
That's a 21% increase. Nice, but worth waiting three levels for? Worth doing half as often (at best) or a quarter as often? A 20th level Evoker gets gets to do it five times a day, rolling twice for SR. An 18th level draconic bloodline sorc could cast Meteor Swarm three times a day, with +32 damage for an average of 142 (27% over wizard baseline).
And this is disregarding the probability that the wizard/sorc will have better save DCs and spell penetration. And, for that matter, a slightly better touch attack roll than the rogue/assassin build.
Anyway, sure, the damage on Meteor Swarm looks impressive, but the AT doesn't make it that much better. You're better off with Scorching Ray; it's low enough that AT has more than one/day and it has no save to pump.
A maximized, empowered Scorching Ray averages 93. An Arcane Trickster adds an average of 24.5, for a total of 117.5, or 26%. That's almost respectable. A gold draconic bloodline sorcerer adds only 12, would average 105, for an increase of about 13% over wizard baseline -- rock! -- I'm better than somebody, at something! I get one of those at 16th level... sorc gets five, wizard gets three.
Yeah. As the Arcane Trickster Devilkiller mentioned earlier, I've resigned myself to combat inferiority... though it helped that I did recently get to sneak around and even survived a Chain Lightning by an extremely high level NPC due to my Evasion.
As to Surprise Spells... err. It's 6:30 AM and I've been doing math all night instead of sleeping, so all I really have to say about Surprise Spells is that I think the real use isn't so much hitting with an area effect (that's good, but not game-breaky unless your DM groups monsters for you or allows Sculpt Spell) but that it's the one way to get sneak attack at a range greater than 30'. After playing two encounters (or was it three?) where the ambushers popped up just out of SA range, I am really looking forward to Surprising(ly longdistance) Fireballs.
Read my post dude, we're talking about each shot in a volley dealing sneak attack.
If you're a 17th lvl caster throwing a Meteor Swarm and your sneak attack is 8d6 (we're talking minimum here) you're gonna do 10d6 for each boulder. That's 40d6 right there.
Each 6d6 fireball that goes with the boulder add 8d6 to. Again, times 4.
That's 4 times 10d6 + 4 times 14d6 = 96d6 damage. Without all the metamagic and increases to sneak attack you can do.
Average of 336 dmg. That's (one of the many reasons) why sneak attack should not work with each shot in a volley. Just once per spell effect.
I've always thought the Scorching ray example odd, especially if you are using it on multiple enemies. I think it should at least apply sneak attack to each enemy hit once.
You can only really aim for on lung at a time on one target with a direct hit.
When people throw around damage numbers and use that to show non-full casters being overpowered, I laugh a little on the inside.
Well, a lot.
Well, on the outside too.
By the time the AT is doing is xdy whatever damage, the wizard is controlling the battlefield completely, summoning hordes of enemies at them, and dominating their minds. The best way to play AT - and the reason it's seen as weak - is to play it simply flat out as a normal wizard, only one that lost two spell levels.
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17th lvl caster.
Rogue 1 for 1d6 sneak attack
Wizard 4 for 4 caster levels
Assassin 1 for 2d6 sneak attack
AT 10 for 14 caster levels, 7d6 sneak attack
Wizard 3 more for 17 caster levels
Total 17 caster levels, 7d6 sneak attack.
character level 20
Evocation school would add 8 damage to any spell.
Meteor swarm deals:
6d6*4 fire damage, as well as potentially dealing 2d6*4 bludgeoning dmg with a ranged touch attack.
assuming 6d6*4 and 2d6*4, the average damage here is 120.
Sneak attack damage on each orb would constitute an additional 28d6 dmg, bringing the total average damage up to 218. The Arcane Trickster can probably do this 3 times/day. One from level, one from school, one from a high ability score.
A 20 wizard would be able to do this 4 times from level, one from school, and one from ability score. 6 times. Literally twice as often.
However, the wizard would be capped at an average damage of 122
Effectively, the AT could fire a total of 654 damage from 9th lvl spells, assuming that sa damage functions on every bolt.
The wizard could fire a total of 732 damage from 9th lvl spells, but takes twice as many rounds to deal damage as the AT takes.
If we look at some other wizard options
Empower is 2, maximize is 3.
So an empowered, maximized scorching ray and a quickened maximized scorching ray will deal..
4d6*3*1.5+10=118
4d6*3+10=82
=200 dpr using a 7th lvl spell and a 9th lvl spell.
The AT would start off at 187 dpr *-4 due to evocation* and then add 7d6*6 for a total of 343dpr
If we give both the wizard and the arcane trickster a meteor swarm and a quickened maximized scorching ray:
Wizard deals 130 + 82, or 214 dpr
AT deals 226+153, or 379 dpr
Allowing sneak attack damage on every attack in a volley pushes the at ahead of the competition. However, allowing sneak attack damage once on every target hit should probably keep this from being overpowering *as in taking out the big bad guy with one shot*, since it'll provide lots of overflow damage against the minions :D
I think your math got me a little confused tanis.
10d6*4 + 14d6*4... I'm not sure where you're getting all these d6's.
6d6fire/orb + 2d6bludgeon/orb + your estimate of 8d6 sa for a total of 10d6*4 + 8d6*4. Am I missing the other 6d6 source?
Of course, the AT spends the majority of his career with slower spell access, which means a lot more when you're comparing at different character levels than 20 :p
Read my post dude, we're talking about each shot in a volley dealing sneak attack.
If you're a 17th lvl caster throwing a Meteor Swarm and your sneak attack is 8d6 (we're talking minimum here) you're gonna do 10d6 for each boulder. That's 40d6 right there.
Each 6d6 fireball that goes with the boulder add 8d6 to. Again, times 4.
That's 4 times 10d6 + 4 times 14d6 = 96d6 damage. Without all the metamagic and increases to sneak attack you can do.
Average of 336 dmg. That's (one of the many reasons) why sneak attack should not work with each shot in a volley. Just once per spell effect.
Ok so at seventeenth level the AT can finally do as much damage with a spell as the fighter can do per round... fewer times per day, with spell resistance, and energy resistance.
How do you figure that 8d6 sneak attack is minimum by the way?
2d6 to get into the PrC + 5d6 from the PrC = 7d6. Assuming 20th level and you only took 3 rogue levels (in order to have the caster level of 17 as you suggest).
All I can say is "About time you did some decent damage."
@Professor: It's not a 'Wizard -2', it's a 'Wizard -2 +Rogue 13'. The sneak attack counts a lot especially with AoE spells.
@Magicdealer: My math was each boulder does 2d6 plus SA (8d6) = 10d6. Each fireball does 6d6 plus SA (8d6) = 14d6. There's 4 of each. That's 10d6 times 4 + 14d6 times 4.
However, I got a little carried away, i was thinking boulder + fireball - when it's just 4 spheres; and i missed the line that said "Despite stemming from separate spheres, all of the fire damage is added together after the saves have been made, and fire resistance is applied only once". So instead of 96d6 it's 64d6. So maybe a bad example.
They pull *a lot* in front. And if you allow the volley SA, then they're always better.
@Abraham: 8d6 because of the Rogue's vest. If it's PF only, then yeh, 7d6. But IMO, it's pretty harsh for the AT, if after he's taken 10 lvls he *has* to go straight Wizard again as there's no PF PrC's that have both SA and spell progression.
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If it's not pathfinder only, then you can take your first arcane trickster at level 5, with wizard3/rogue1, and go from there :P That's the undefeatable feat series there.
And with a few of the more classic metamagic feats like split ray, you can get a LOT more mileage out of the Arcane Trickster.
Wizard still has his place as battlefield controller :P The AT just make the wizard a bit trickier, and potentially increases the damage per round, but sacrifices versatility, and spells/round.
Pretty fair tradeoff, I think.
And if that's how you want to houserule it, that's cool. But my argument basically boils down to
a) It was specifically ruled out in 3.5; and
b) PF hasn't overruled that, in fact they've said that PF is 3.5 compatible.
This leads me to believe that unless they do overrule it, they have intended for that the way it is to be played. I've just been saying why I won't houserule it otherwise, your game, your rules.
btw, how do you qualify for AT with only 1 lvl of rogue? That would make it MUCH more viable at lower levels - where it hurts - in this, i definitely agree.
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One of the feats from undefeatable gives you, among other things, an additional 1d6 sneak attack dice when your caster level hits 3. I think it goes a long way to making the class more playable throughout its career. It ends up losing one caster level, which puts it on par with a sorcerer if the base is wizard, or not too far behind if the base is a sorcerer. One level hurts, but not nearly as much as two :p
I agree with sneak attack applying only once during a volley normally. My opinion for sneak attack damage applying once per target is specifically related to the arcane trickster capstone ability, not the normal every day sneak attacking rogue/wizard :D
The undefeatable series can be found in the pazio store. Specifically, you want the undefeatable: arcane trickster page if you want the source material.
Or you can open up the rokugan books. It's a two feat investment there, but it'll get you an extra 1d6 sneak attack.
@Professor: It's not a 'Wizard -2', it's a 'Wizard -2 +Rogue 13'. The sneak attack counts a lot especially with AoE spells.
No, it doesn't.
Damage is not the awesome force of nature you are painting it out to be.
Ok, the AT derps around with a fireball or a meteor shower or whatever. The wizard casts Time Stop, and wins immediately. Or he casts Gate and wins immediately. In fact, let's use your example of the level fifteen character, where the AT has level 7 spells and the wizard has level 8 ones. He has Greater Planar Binding. He has Summon Monster IX. He has Clone, which means he can be virtually unkillable.
Meanwhile the AT hasn't actually done anything because everything in the world is immune to fire damage. So I guess you hit four enemies for 2d6 + sneak attack. That's...not exactly the best use of a level 9 spell slot.
Do not play AT like a sneak attacking rogue. Use those caster levels. The AT isn't a rogue with a few spells, it's a wizard with some sneakiness. Stealth is awesome. You can't magically reveal stealthed creatures like you can invisible ones. Your skills are huge. You get a free still/silent spell x/day. You go invisible as a free action. These are what AT gives you.
In the words of a much wiser man by the name of Hella Jeff, "THE SNEAK ATTACK RUSE WAS A........... DISTRACTION"
Please for the love of god stop looking at the damage when discussing wizards. They have so much more that is so much better.
Note: Can you believe this post actually jumped to an entirely different sub-forum after I tried posting it?
I agree with sneak attack applying only once during a volley normally. My opinion for sneak attack damage applying once per target is specifically related to the arcane trickster capstone ability, not the normal every day sneak attacking rogue/wizard :D
Just to be clear, I've got absolutely no problem with every single opponent within the area of effect getting stung with SA due to Surprise Spells class ability. They hella earned, especially having to go thru the trauma of qualifying for AT. So we're in agreement here.
@ Professor: Normally, I've got no qualms with what you post, but this 'Wizards shouldn't throw fireballs, and dealing pure damage sucks' kinda comments are misleading.
Yes, Wizards are the best at controlling the battlefield. But that doesn't discount the poor old Evoker from being damn effective. btw, if an AT is casting Meteor Swarm, then they can cast Time Stop too. So that's not accurate.
Secondly, not everything is immune to fire, and as i've said before, if they are immune to fire they are vulnerable to cold. You can use immunities against creatures, and if you're smart, you memorize different energy spells, as well as different saving throw spells. I make a point of memorizing fire, acid, cold, electricity, as well as force spells; in addition to spells that require Fort, Ref and Will saves; and if you pick your targets well, they will fall.
All in 6 rounds.
And I'm a 11th lvl *gasp* Evoker.
and btw, I agree, use your spells for utility as well. The reason I killed them all without taking a single hit was because I had Gtr Invisibility, Displacement; Mirror Image and Overland Flight on. The couple of Ogre Magi that (I assume) had See Invisibility couldn't land a hit.
Yeh, 7,650gp. But in the end I didn't even need them. I thought we were way overmatched, but at the end I still had 70% of my spells left. Oh well, live and learn.
The caster level check was 18. (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1)
I'm a Master Specialist, so my CL is +1 with evocation. CL 12
So 5 or less. But even if you fail, the scroll isn't wasted, unless you fail a DC 5 Wisdom check and mishap.
Unless i've read it wrong...?
Uh
The only thing you really proved there was "If you have scrolls of spells five levels before you're supposed to, you can really clean house." I mean, well, yes ;p.
The funny thing is, one scroll of Gate would've done all of that and more ;p
I suppose pure damage has it's place, but people here tend to think of it as the only thing that matters, and it's really not. Far from it. Every class can do damage, but only wizards can cast other spells. That's why I "wat" whenever these types of conversations come up. Bragging about wizard damage is like a druid who brags about being able to talk to animals. I mean, yeah, you can, but look at all that other stuff you can do! :p
I agree, Wizards are the masters of utility. I guess it just gets my back up when it's implied/assumed/stated as fact that dealing damage is *OMG - the most sub-optimal thing to do!* They are actually the best at dealing damage to a large area, is my point.
I'm not discounting battlefield control either, I'm just saying each has it's place.
The best way to play AT - and the reason it's seen as weak - is to play it simply flat out as a normal wizard, only one that lost two spell levels.
You're probably right; it's easier to pump save DCs or avoid them than it is to prop up to-hit. But you still end up with very limited spells, and I'm not sure how worth it Evasion and Stealth are, especially if you forego a high dex in order to have decent spell DCs. Personally, I was trying to fill the role of backup thief, but even if I'd decided on the class on my own, I suspect I'd succumb to the lure of being a crappy rogue/mage rather than the ideal mediocre mage.
Read my post dude, we're talking about each shot in a volley dealing sneak attack.
If you want to break that, don't look at Meteor Swarm (few attacks, high damage from magic), look at Telekinesis (fifteen attacks, relatively low damage). 7d6*15 averages 367 before weapon damage. I was planning on, say, the occasional volley of flame arrow javelins. Not all of them will hit since it's not touch attacks and AT's base attack is lamentable, but that affects wizards too; that's 472 average damage, an increase of roughly 462% over standard Flame Arrow+TK (avg 105).
But, yeah, not allowed. ETA: And I probably just destroyed what slim chance there might've been of someone official showing up and saying something like, "Oh, yeah, actually if you roll an attack and it qualifies for sneak attack, you get it."
If you're a 17th lvl caster throwing a Meteor Swarm and your sneak attack is 8d6 (we're talking minimum here) you're gonna do 10d6 for each boulder. That's 40d6 right there.
8d6 minimum? In PF? It's 7d6 unless you want to spend extra levels in rogue (or assassin if your DM doesn't mind evil PCs). Even if your DM allows stuff from MiC, your gold is super tight because you're also trying to afford metamagic rods, possibly while using scrolls to mitigate having half the spells as a caster your level.
Each 6d6 fireball that goes with the boulder add 8d6 to. Again, times 4.
No. AoE don't get sneak attack unless you're using Surprise Spells. In Meteor Swarm, even with sneak attack on every attack die you roll, you'd get 4 sneak attacks, therefore, 28d6 added to your 32d6 -- still VERY good for Meteor Swarm, but not entirely outlandish given what a wizard that level could be up to, or apparently a fighter, from what someone said upthread.
Anyway, to sum up: Arcane Trickster is all fun and games and terrible terrible power if you're 20th level and your DM gives you tons of gold and lets you buy anything, be evil, and use feats from 3.5 and supplements. Otherwise, you're a wizard with missing levels and a few situational tricks and/or a rogue with crappy base attack, less SA, and no rogue talents. Rock! :)
Read my post dude, we're talking about each shot in a volley dealing sneak attack.If you want to break that, don't look at Meteor Swarm (few attacks, high damage from magic), look at Telekinesis (fifteen attacks, relatively low damage). 7d6*15 averages 367 before weapon damage. I was planning on, say, the occasional volley of flame arrow javelins. Not all of them will hit since it's not touch attacks and AT's base attack is lamentable, but that affects wizards too; that's 472 average damage, an increase of roughly 462% over standard Flame Arrow+TK (avg 105).
Yep, one more reason...
Quote:
Each 6d6 fireball that goes with the boulder add 8d6 to. Again, times 4.
No. AoE don't get sneak attack unless you're using Surprise Spells.
I was.
I agree with your summary btw.
My point is that SA + volley + wizard = breakage.
SA + volley + AT = utter pwnage.
Still, just my opinion.
Wait so to take a bunch of giants you blew through:
2 9th level scrolls
3 sixth level spells
1 fifth level spell
And that's good?
What are you going to do for the next fight? At 11th level you have next to nothing left! Wasted too many spells on one fight.
Every attack roll that qualifies for sneak attack damage gets it. If you fire four rays and you wont initiative then they all get sneak attack damage. I see no reason to try to say they dont get sneak attack damage if all the attack rolls can crit.
Wait so to take a bunch of giants you blew through:
2 9th level scrolls
3 sixth level spells
1 fifth level spellAnd that's good?
What are you going to do for the next fight? At 11th level you have next to nothing left! Wasted too many spells on one fight.
I have the 3.5 ACF Focussed Specialist 3.5 ACF (-1 Class spell slot/+2 Specialized school slot), as well as Precocious Apprentice feat (+1 2nd lvl spell slot) plus a 1st lvl and a 2nd lvl Peal of Power. so it's gonna be more than a standard PF Wiz.
Class Spells per day/ Int bns/ Specialist School Spells per day/ Total per day
0 4 / - / - / 4
1 3 / 2 / 4 / 9
2 3 / 2 / 5 / 10
3 3 / 2 / 3 / 8
4 2 / 1 / 3 / 6
5 1 / 1 / 3 / 5
6 0 / 1 / 3 / 4
To clarify, i used 2 9th lvl scrolls, 2 6th lvl , 2 5th lvls, 2 4th lvl, 2 3rd lvl, 1 2nd lvl spell. And yeh, that is good,
1) I did it mostly by myself.
2) In the end i didn't need half of the resources i used. So...y'know, live and learn :)
So i still have remaining:
1 - 9
2 - 9
3 - 6
4 - 4
5 - 3
6 - 2
@ Concerro: Doesn't change the fact that if you fire however many rays as part of ONE spell, by RAW, it's ONE sneak attack.
Doesn't mean you can't houserule however you want, but this forum is called Rules Questions not House Rule Questions.
btw, what difference does it make if they crit or not?
@ Concerro: Doesn't change the fact that if you fire however many rays as part of ONE spell, by RAW, it's ONE sneak attack.Doesn't mean you can't houserule however you want, but this forum is called Rules Questions not House Rule Questions.
btw, what difference does it make if they crit or not?
If you can only get sneak on one attack then you could only crit on one attack. That is not a houserule I mentioned. Scorching ray is one action, but it is several attacks(depending on the caster level) and each one is good for SA damage or a crit.
Scorching Ray:
You blast your enemies with a searing beam of fire. You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage. The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously.
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
We have several attacks, and each attack qualifies for sneak attack.
Yes you can get more than one crit with Scorching Ray but you can not get more than one sneak attack with one spell. Here's the ruling for 3.5, can you show me where PF changed this?
Multiple Hits:
Some weaponlike spells can strike multiple times in the same round. When the caster gets a bonus on damage with such spells (including sneak attack damage), the extra damage applies only to the first attack, whether that attack hits or not. For example, a 7th-level sorcerer/3rd-level rogue with Point Blank Shot makes a scorching ray attack at less than 30 feet (two rays, each requiring a ranged touch attack roll and dealing 4d6 points of fire damage). If the first ray hits, it deals 6d6+1 points of fire damage (4d6 normal + 2d6 sneak attack + 1 for Point Blank Shot), while each subsequent ray deals only 4d6 points of fire damage whether the first ray hits or not.
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Yes you can get more than one crit with Scorching Ray but you can not get more than one sneak attack with one spell. Here's the ruling for 3.5, can you show me where PF changed this?
Multiple Hits:
Some weaponlike spells can strike multiple times in the same round. When the caster gets a bonus on damage with such spells (including sneak attack damage), the extra damage applies only to the first attack, whether that attack hits or not. For example, a 7th-level sorcerer/3rd-level rogue with Point Blank Shot makes a scorching ray attack at less than 30 feet (two rays, each requiring a ranged touch attack roll and dealing 4d6 points of fire damage). If the first ray hits, it deals 6d6+1 points of fire damage (4d6 normal + 2d6 sneak attack + 1 for Point Blank Shot), while each subsequent ray deals only 4d6 points of fire damage whether the first ray hits or not.
personally i'd let the AT capstone ability trump that ruling.
thats my thoughts anyway.
If you take bleed as a rogue, you could do some pretty interesting things with that Fireball, Cone of Cold or Sunburst.
Yes you can get more than one crit with Scorching Ray but you can not get more than one sneak attack with one spell. Here's the ruling for 3.5, can you show me where PF changed this?
Multiple Hits:
Some weaponlike spells can strike multiple times in the same round. When the caster gets a bonus on damage with such spells (including sneak attack damage), the extra damage applies only to the first attack, whether that attack hits or not. For example, a 7th-level sorcerer/3rd-level rogue with Point Blank Shot makes a scorching ray attack at less than 30 feet (two rays, each requiring a ranged touch attack roll and dealing 4d6 points of fire damage). If the first ray hits, it deals 6d6+1 points of fire damage (4d6 normal + 2d6 sneak attack + 1 for Point Blank Shot), while each subsequent ray deals only 4d6 points of fire damage whether the first ray hits or not.
Can you show me where it exists in pathfinder? If not then it's not pathfinder -- it's 3.5 as such bringing it forward to pathfinder would be a house rule.
Compatible =/= beholden to all the same rules.
Well the guide is very specific in the wording.
Pg 378
Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed.
What is more important, is the ability to give trolls bleed if you use a fireball. Their regeneration has been disrupted, does bleed work?