what I am saying is is is not a weapon. A +1 Dagger of Brilliant Energy is not a candle, it can be used as a light source but that is not what it is made to do. I can beat someone with a chair does that mean that chair was meant to be a weapon?
An Athame should not be made to be a weapon, it could be yes, but so can a book. It should not improve your ability as a weapon as it is not a weapon. I would have no issue with it being a casting tool however.
Just why must it have full BAB and a d10? I keep hearing this but not sure why. It's a hybrid class. Not a straight warrior, it's a mix like the bard, alchemist, inquisitor and the like .
I am failing to see why it needs full BAB and a D10. If it had those items you pretty much made it have to be a half caster.
Just why does it need full BAB?
Mr. Fishy played a Mage with unarmed strike in the Iron Kingdoms, "Witchfire Trilogy". Mr. Fishy's puligist mage had the highest kill count and solo mech-thrall kill without magic.
A fighter mage could work but screaming for spell isn't the way to go. It's been done to death. Duskblade, Hexblade, Eldrich Knight, Warlock[3.5]
A battle field controller with melee base power could work but if all you want is to wear armor and cast at full power may a Fishy suggest Rifts or Exalted.
Name one Character in literature or movies that is a fighter/mage with Full BA and casting. Mr. Fishy has never seen one. Mr. Fishy has seen a few that were close. But they were ritual casters or weapon bound.
Maybe the new Fishy class should be like a ranger or a druid with two class paths, one focuses on magic and has more spell casting, like domains or element focus. Or more combat based with a magically created weapon like a flame blade [force or elemental] move action to activate. Weapon powers like firing bolts or Radius effect center on the Fishy.
Ideas are more productive than I want Full BA and casting. Just a though.
I am failing to see why it needs full BAB and a D10. If it had those items you pretty much made it have to be a half caster.
You haven't really justified that with any logic other than that is how you feel about it.
Neither have anyone else.
eDIT: I have more then most folks really.
Because they can blow up the whole room?
They are melee class first with a few haveing spells. You don't want half caster yet that is what the two full BAB casting classes have. Why should it be stronger then those classes? Whay shouldn't it have to have the same limits?
So half caster then. No? then why should it have full BAB? If ya want full BAB you give up spells, if ya want more spells ya have to give up Full BAB.
My suggestion:
========Bard Level of Power==========
Magus:
========Cleric Level of Power===========
I don't see that version of the magus class as on equal power as the cleric, but it probably would be slightly more powerful than the bard (bard is a support class, this version of the magus wouldn't necessarily be).
People have said that spell casters are more powerful than the rest of the classes. Whole threads are devoted to the arguement. Now your asking that a caster be give full BA and spells and you don't see why we have a problem with this? Really?
>This is going to be a good crop. Shakes out some more munchkin flakes<
Then there is absolutely no point for a magus to exist and this entire discussion is pointless.They are melee class first with a few haveing spells. You don't want half caster yet that is what the two full BAB casting classes have. Why should it be stronger then those classes? Whay shouldn't it have to have the same limits?
So half caster then. No? then why should it have full BAB? If ya want full BAB you give up spells, if ya want more spells ya have to give up Full BAB.
the point is to play an arcane warroir type from level 1. Not make another over powered broken class. You walk the line between fighting and casting your not goinna be as good at fighting. If you are your casting will suck
what you guys are wanting is simply over powered. You can't do both and keep it within the same power level
Magus:
Full BA, d10.
2/3 caster (bard progression) based on INT.
Some class abilities for combining spells with weapons.
Some restrictions on the spell list (though possibly being limited to 6th level might be enough).
No higher than medium armor proficiency.
2+Int skills
I would never allow such a class. Over powered doesn't even cover it.
>This is going to be a good crop. Shakes out some more munchkin flakes<
Can I help? I want to see how this harvest turns out.
I would never allow such a class. Over powered doesn't even cover it.Magus:
Full BA, d10.
2/3 caster (bard progression) based on INT.
Some class abilities for combining spells with weapons.
Some restrictions on the spell list (though possibly being limited to 6th level might be enough).
No higher than medium armor proficiency.
2+Int skills
Of course you believe that a spellcasting class that can only cast prestidigitation would be over powered with a full BA, so you'll understand if I dismiss your reservations as irrational.
Seeker, think of it this way. An EK can get 16 BAB and 9th level spells, but he can't be an EK until 7th level.
A Magus is basically trading 3 whole levels of spells, the best levels of spells, for 4 base attack bonus. Likeley they are further trading the versatility of a wizard spell selection for a very focused one, and also trading in all the fighter feats and possibly armor proficiencies etc etc.
If it isn't full BAB from the get go, or doesn't have good class abilities at every level of play, then people will just go Magus>EK which largely defeats the purpose of the class.
I think Full BAB, Bard casting, very restricted class list, and a couple of class abilities to help meld the two parts of the class, would be fine. You don't, we understand, but even as this goes it will be only a tier 2 class.
How about a dual path like the druid and ranger. One is a magic based path extra spells known and domain/school like powers.
The other path is a weapon base martial class. Character can summon a weapon of pure magical energy[Touch attack no stat to damage finessible]. Then add energy types or special power as the class levels. Like shooting energy bolts from the weapon or a burst of magical energy centered on the weapon. The weapon could become more powerful as the class level also, with fewer spells per day and better armor.(few spells/armor failure)
The HD could be D8s and the BA 3/4 and the class could still be viable because of the touch attack nature of the eldrich weapon or saves of the spells.
Ideas carry far more weight than, "I want."
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Of course you believe that a spellcasting class that can only cast prestidigitation would be over powered with a full BA, so you'll understand if I dismiss your reservations as irrational.I would never allow such a class. Over powered doesn't even cover it.Magus:
Full BA, d10.
2/3 caster (bard progression) based on INT.
Some class abilities for combining spells with weapons.
Some restrictions on the spell list (though possibly being limited to 6th level might be enough).
No higher than medium armor proficiency.
2+Int skills
Nowhere in your Magus break down is there any mention of the Magus being able to cast only prestidigitation.
Nowhere in your Magus break down is there any mention of the Magus being able to cast only prestidigitation.Of course you believe that a spellcasting class that can only cast prestidigitation would be over powered with a full BA, so you'll understand if I dismiss your reservations as irrational.I would never allow such a class. Over powered doesn't even cover it.Magus:
Full BA, d10.
2/3 caster (bard progression) based on INT.
Some class abilities for combining spells with weapons.
Some restrictions on the spell list (though possibly being limited to 6th level might be enough).
No higher than medium armor proficiency.
2+Int skills
True, but I did say spell list would probably be restricted. I did not outline exactly what that list would look like, believing others should have input. Still, a restriction to only prestidigitation would certainly qualify for that restriction. That is apparently over-powered. =D
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Name one Character in literature or movies that is a fighter/mage with Full BA and casting. Mr. Fishy has never seen one. Mr. Fishy has seen a few that were close. But they were ritual casters or weapon bound.
I would suggest Belgarath or Garion from David Eddings Belgariad series but I'm not sure if that falls under weapon bound. :)
I would suggest Belgarath or Garion from David Eddings Belgariad series but I'm not sure if that falls under weapon bound. :)
Name one Character in literature or movies that is a fighter/mage with Full BA and casting. Mr. Fishy has never seen one. Mr. Fishy has seen a few that were close. But they were ritual casters or weapon bound.
Gandalf?
Gandalf?I would suggest Belgarath or Garion from David Eddings Belgariad series but I'm not sure if that falls under weapon bound. :)
Name one Character in literature or movies that is a fighter/mage with Full BA and casting. Mr. Fishy has never seen one. Mr. Fishy has seen a few that were close. But they were ritual casters or weapon bound.
Yoda?
Seeker, think of it this way. An EK can get 16 BAB and 9th level spells, but he can't be an EK until 7th level.
A Magus is basically trading 3 whole levels of spells, the best levels of spells, for 4 base attack bonus. Likeley they are further trading the versatility of a wizard spell selection for a very focused one, and also trading in all the fighter feats and possibly armor proficiencies etc etc.
If it isn't full BAB from the get go, or doesn't have good class abilities at every level of play, then people will just go Magus>EK which largely defeats the purpose of the class.
I think Full BAB, Bard casting, very restricted class list, and a couple of class abilities to help meld the two parts of the class, would be fine. You don't, we understand, but even as this goes it will be only a tier 2 class.
The EK you struggle and build 7 level to even get there. At 17th level you have a caster level of 15th and a BAB of +13. Congrats you have med BAB not full. EK wouldn't do much for the Magus, lose a caster level some BAB bumps and count as levels of fighter for it. at bard progression ya would need 8th level so at 18th level your BAB is +16 also not really full BAB. Which you gave up a caster level and class ablitys for
I'll stand behind base class with bard progression of arcane spells and full BAB is to much.
I am not sure I like an always on ability that steps around BAB. Usable a few times a day or something cool, but not always on. I would like something more like an arcane strike or maybe an extra 1d6/2 levels of some arcane energy a few times a day or something. Or maybe some type of arcane smite ability. Some thing to boost attack but not always on.
Dips Robert In honey
Yoda?Gandalf?I would suggest Belgarath or Garion from David Eddings Belgariad series but I'm not sure if that falls under weapon bound. :)
Name one Character in literature or movies that is a fighter/mage with Full BA and casting. Mr. Fishy has never seen one. Mr. Fishy has seen a few that were close. But they were ritual casters or weapon bound.
Which one had full BA and Full Casting?
It was Belgarion, Mr. Fishy liked Silk and the cranky uncle dwarf Mr. Fishy can't remember his name. Belgarth was a thief/caster. Belgarion was a fighter/will worker and Yoda...
Yoda was stated and he didn't have full BA.
Gandalf was a wizard...with an ancient magic sword...and a demi-god.
Murgos... Chelax separated at birth?
wan't Gandalf and outsider? He wasn't much a wizard that's for sure.
A%!%#*& could even burn snow, POSER!
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Definitely agree Gandalf doesn't fit, although I've never gotten around to reading the books.
Garion was the best fit I could think of, even with his artifact sword. Obviously not Vancian magic, but a full caster nonetheless.
Oh, and Modesitt had his Saga of Recluse, with Order Mages usually having combat ability along with their magic. The Corellian Chronicles had a good number of Talented soldiers, but I don't know that I would call that full casting.
a*!@&*# could even burn snow, POSER!
Whoa, ease up Fish. I've been reading through and you seemed to be the rational one in what was, for pun's sake, a veritable feeding frenzy (is it too much of a stretch?). Don't lose it over the Gray/White one.
Take a minute and think about Gandalf, man. What was the most powerful spell he cast the whole series? Light? Message? Scrying? He didn't even drop a Featherfall in Moria.
In a world where there was like 7 wizards, that's one bad dude, but still...
...that being said, on the original subject, I'm with the "this is a waste of a new class" camp. EK does it. It even makes more sense. You can't master two complex disciplines at the same time; you master one, you master the other, and THEN you learn to blend them. It's more realistic.
That Mr. Fishy point it's unnatural.
It's more realistic.
No need to be rude.
;)
It's more realistic.No need to be rude.
;)
I'm confused... What was rude about my statement? *puzzled look*
That Mr. Fishy point it's unnatural.
Now I'm even more confused...
I'm confused... What was rude about my statement? *puzzled look*
...
About using the R word (Realistic) in a game debate.
I'm confused... What was rude about my statement? *puzzled look*...
** spoiler omitted **
Ah. I was always under the impression that explicit realism (, at least as far as one can define realism within the physicals and mechanics of a fantasy world) was desired as much as possible.
It's hard to read jokes in text, as vocal tone doesn't convey well over http. :) Glad to see the light heartedness.
Full caster and full BA is unnatural.
>drops Munchkin Grow Tabs tm<
*Drops a line into the waters of the thread, the hook baited with a fresh Munchkin gibblet* Heeeeeere fishy fishy fishy ....
>Mr. Fishy knows imitation munchkin when he sees it, smells it, or hears it(Munchkins are noise creatures)<
Actually, Gandalf fireballed a bunch of goblins in "The Hobbit."
Take a minute and think about Gandalf, man. What was the most powerful spell he cast the whole series? Light? Message? Scrying? He didn't even drop a Featherfall in Moria.
Magic item, Staff of the Magi.
As for talking fish; elf, wizard, dragon and you throw rocks at Mr. Fishy.