One of the giant flaws (?) of D&D (3.5 and earlier) was it's enormous dependency on magical items to balance the characters at medium and upper levels. Does Pathfinder still have this flaw, or are the characters more balanced?
Thoughts?
jh
One of the giant flaws (?) of D&D (3.5 and earlier) was it's enormous dependency on magical items to balance the characters at medium and upper levels. Does Pathfinder still have this flaw, or are the characters more balanced?
I think part of the flaw was lack of class abilities to make up the potential loss of magic items. With the Disjunction getting the nerf it needed and upping the raw power of the classes, I believe the problem is as close to resolved as it is going to get. If you are still having problems with dependancy on magic items, I suggest taking a break from Pathfinder and and instead become an Iron Hero.
Dependent? Yes.
Too dependent? Matter of opinion.
If you want to remove them entirely, there are threads on the forum that go into detail on various ways to do this.
I take the adventure paths as the "correct" level of magic item balance for the world of Golarion, which was created as a vessel for that content. The adventure paths are "just right" and also consistently less item-rich than the printed system would produce, but not by that much.
The rules are cool, and flexible enough that they're still worth using for other types of worlds, though. This is well known.
Yes. Too much of especially high level play is the dependence on magic items, especially on "the optimal loadout of just the right stat boosting" kinds of items.
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Do a search for the recent threads on reliance on the "Big Six" (the idea that most PCs are expected to have magic armor, a magic weapon, a cloak of resistance, a ring of protection, an amulet of natural armor, and various stat boosting items). There's a lot of analysis on the subject, particularly by Kolokotroni.
Generally: yes. Often, if you look at a high CR monster, its to hit bonus and AC and its saves and the DCs to save against its abilities are high enough that a "naked" PC of appropriate level would have barely a chance to save against that monster's attacks, avoid that monster's attacks, and hit that monster with either weapon or spell. The monster's stats essentially "assume" that PCs will be boosted by gear in some way.
Is this a good or bad thing? On one hand, part of the fun of the game is finding cool loot that boosts your abilities. Is it the main part of the fun of the game? No, not for me at least. But it definitely is PART of the fun for me.
On the other hand, it gets predictable, especially with reliance on high stats and high saves at high levels to be able to deal with certain enemies. I don't mind that high level characters are somewhat gear dependent, but that nearly all of them will likely have a Cloak of Resistance and/or stat boosters to survive gets rather boring. Going back to the fun of getting cool loot, part of that fun is finding stuff well suited to your character, not just the stock bits and pieces everybody wears.
How to deal with this if you don't like it?
A few options/ideas, none of which I have actually TRIED so I can't say how well they will work, so take it with a good chunk of salt:
- run low combat games, relying instead more on puzzles and exploration. When combat happens it will be tough, but its rarity justifies that. You will need certain kinds of players to make this work well, however.
- Use high ability score generation methods and/or allow stats to be boosted more frequently than every 4th level, but don't allow stat booster gear.
- Adjust the saving throw increase rate so PCs naturally get higher base saves as they reach high levels. Add in a "Defense Bonus" based on class (look at the way d20 Modern does it for the idea of it) so there is less need to find three or four or five ways to boost your AC. I don't have the mathematical skills to see easily how this would precisely work, so I welcome suggestions.
- In line with the previous, do a lot of "smaller/weaker" template work on monsters (reduce powerful monsters' saves, attacks, and to hit rolls by 2 or so).
- Attack with large numbers of weaker monsters, and/or attack using normal race/class NPCs, who without gear or with minimal gear will have much closer saves, AC, to hit, etc. as the PCs/
The problem with all of these is they require more prep time as a GM, and GMs ALREADY need more prep time if they're running a high level campaign to begin with.
lots of neat ideas
It might be easier than that, actually. It may boil down to "at levels 5-10, treat PCs as 1 level lower for CR calculations. At 10-15, treat them as 2 levels lower. At 15-20, treat them as 3 levels lower." or something (specific numbers may vary, but you get the idea).
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Another question: would the game break without ability score bumping magical items (and spells)?
Jay H
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Another question: would the game break without ability score bumping magical items (and spells)?
Jay H
It won't break, no...but it will be significantly harder (saves will be tougher to make, monsters will save almost all the time against PC spells, attacks will land less often, HP will be lower, etc.).
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In the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana, there was a Class Based Defense System that would eliminate the need for magical armor (but I'm not so sure about shields or other AC boosting items). Every class got a fixed AC boost that scaled with level based on that class's highest armor proficiency (none, light, medium, and heavy- a, b, c, and d respectively on the chart). I really liked it, although I haven't gotten a chance to use it in a campaign as of yet (I've been saving it for my Desert/Steampunk campaign, as it seems like a perfect fit for that environment).
I would say that the system is fairly item dependent, and as a player I know that I have to first spend gold on the vital items (for me it's just armor, weapons, and stat-boosters, really) before I can spend it on fun stuff like a Rod of Ropes or a Bag of Endless Caltrops (oh how I love them). As a DM though, it is kinda fun to see what the PC's can do without level-appropriate gear (and watch them still slaughter everything in the dungeon). With a well-built and well-organized party, items become less and less important for survival.
EDIT: And hey, if Wands of Cure Light Wounds aren't available at every corner, maybe somebody will actually use the Heal skill for something other than background and flavor
E6 as a rules system is pretty great for this.
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My answer to the OP question is my typical engineer's answer: It depends.
In this case, it can depend on the DM and how difficult or easy he makes the game. It can depend on the skill of the players, or lack there of. Hell, it can depend on the rolling of the dice.
In other words, it's all in what you make of it. So crack open a beer (or soda for those who can't or don't drink booze), roll the dice, and have fun. And let's be careful out there.
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Another question: would the game break without ability score bumping magical items (and spells)?
Jay H
No, these are not the items that I thought of when I read the original post.
The magic items that characters become dependent on are ones that are absolutely required to deal with certain challenges. Items that allow flight, divination, control of the battlefield etc.
If all you are removing are stat boost items, I would slightly increase the CR's of upper level monsters. No biggie.
Take out a fighter's ability to connect his weapon to the flying monster - now game balance gets fried.
Well, back in beta I had hoped for an alternative system for low-magic worlds, where PC's get fixed stats boosts at certain levels, with a corresponding "GP at level X" table to adjust PC's money gains.
I guess it is too much to hope that something like that is in the Gamemastery Guide? :p
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Another question: would the game break without ability score bumping magical items (and spells)?
Jay H
To your original question, yes pathfinder is heavily reliant on magic items at high levels. I've done a little analysis and to be honest even at mid range levels characters without the 'big six' items in particular have serious issues dealing with CR appropriate monsters.
In addition, without other sets of items like treantmonk points out, certain classes absolutely require support from casters to deal with common threats. A 20th level melee flyer could probably be killed by a flyer if he isnt equiped for it or has a caster handy to help him out.
As to this question. Depends, again casters in particular have issues getting their spells off against CR appropriate monsters. And the characters fall behind in their own saves, attacks, etc. If you are willing to adjust CRs to account for this loss, it wont 'break'. It just means you have to be more careful about what and how many of what you throw against the party.
If your game is has the enemies your party faces being primarily NPC's with class levels, the game actually holds of ok without magic items, but the bestiary monsters are much more difficult to use after you arrive at midrange levels.
With any version of D&D it is important to equalize the wealth in regards to coins, gems, resources, hirelings, and/or magic items. Any one of those can tip the balance if it is not distrubted evenly amongst the characters. For a homebrew campaign this is easier to control, unless you allow for easy crafting, brewing, etc. or place no limits on wealth, or let someone hold a monopoly as a character.
I can't really understand whats the problem here.
A big part of the game for many players is to make their char better, and magic items are a major source of excitement.
If you are unconfortable with this (and your players too) then either play E6 or give out fixed AC and to hit adjusts of +1 every full 5 levels and +2 every full 10 levels and you should be golden - but make sure that you players don't mind finding another "nothing valuable powerwise" among the BBEG possessions.
I can't really understand whats the problem here.
A big part of the game for many players is to make their char better, and magic items are a major source of excitement.
If you are unconfortable with this (and your players too) then either play E6 or give out fixed AC and to hit adjusts or +1 every full 5 levels and +2 every full 10 levels and you should be golden - but make sure that you players don't mind finding another "nothing valuable powerwise" among the BBEG possessions.
It's not necessarily a problem, but there's a few things that some find irksome--or simply get sick of--after awhile.
There is a difference between unexpectedly finding a really cool item that boosts your abilities in a way that is helpful, and feeling like you NEED a specific item to be able to contribute effectively to your party. In high level games, have seen players say, "Aw man, my saves suck, I need a save boosting item" and really feel disheartened about their character because of this issue. And then as a GM I have to look at what I was planning to give them... sure, I thought the Cloak of the Bat would be a really cool, different thing they hadn't seen yet, but maybe I ought to change that to a bog-standard Cloak of Resistance that everyone and his brother has. Or change that Helm of Brilliance to a Headband of Inspired Wisdom. Or change future encounters entirely to reduce the need for saving throws.
As has been discussed, though, there are ways to deal with this. If you begin a campaign with low-magic items, Drow Vampyre's suggestion of dropping the CR for higher level encounters probably would help a lot, though there will have to be some fudging based on the party construction etc. You and I both have already suggested the class based AC increase.
It also occurs to me that if you want a low-magic item game, to maybe allow something like extended buff spells. This is more paperwork for the party to track, but if you allow certain performance booster buffs to last for longer (and allow more stackable bonuses), those could effectively sub in for magic items.
It also occurs to me that if you want a low-magic item game, to maybe allow something like extended buff spells. This is more paperwork for the party to track, but if you allow certain performance booster buffs to last for longer (and allow more stackable bonuses), those could effectively sub in for magic items.
But then instead of requiring certain items, you require certain classes to be in the party. Casters would still need to burn alot of their daily spells to provide these buffs to an entire party, particularly if its more then the typical 4 pc size. Making a party NEED a wizard and cleric is not the way to remove the NEED for certain magic items.
Given that the abilities in magic items are pretty much neccessary, i would recommend making them inherant in characters. I am likely going to use something like this in my next game, where players just choose between 'big six' like abilities as they level. Then i can leave things open for the interesting items every once in a while that are just fun because they have unique abilities like the cloak of the bat.
One of the giant flaws (?) of D&D (3.5 and earlier) was it's enormous dependency on magical items to balance the characters at medium and upper levels. Does Pathfinder still have this flaw, or are the characters more balanced?
Thoughts?
jh
Yes. PF is dependent upon magic items. Too dependent? Yes, for my tastes but that was a price to pay to be as backwards-compatible as possible with 3.5.
I understand many love the optimization mini-game that magic items offer. However, I've seen too many instances where the gear became the focus versus the character or the plot. When players grouse that their PC is "unuseable" because a cherished magic item is lost, then you've built too great a dependency on items into the game. (Yes, it also speaks to player maturity.)
Magic item availability should be a tunable option set by the GM, like the advancement scale. Arguably, the PFRPG addresses this to some degree in the advice given in the core rulebook, but the adventures & APs themselves assume a pretty high volume of magic items.
For those who cry "the math breaks" without readily available magic items, I hope that Paizo at some point addresses the game mechanics implications in a future sourcebook. I'd glady turn to Paizo-approved mechanics options rather than house-ruling it all.
What I find as a flaw in the system is that there are no guidelines or "dials" that can easily be adjusted to change the assumed amount of magic items in the game.
I'd hoped that there would have been some CR adjustment, or create a list of monsters in the Bestiary that assume certain types of magic items are present to be able to defeat them, or just hand out bonuses at certain levels if a low magic game was assumed.
Basically, make the system transparent and already pre-organized for the style of game you want to run.
+100
I can't really understand whats the problem here.
A big part of the game for many players is to make their char better, and magic items are a major source of excitement.
If you are unconfortable with this (and your players too) then either play E6 or give out fixed AC and to hit adjusts of +1 every full 5 levels and +2 every full 10 levels and you should be golden - but make sure that you players don't mind finding another "nothing valuable powerwise" among the BBEG possessions.
You do realize that some people play the game for more than the "hey, a new shiny" factor, right?
I can't really understand whats the problem here.
A big part of the game for many players is to make their char better, and magic items are a major source of excitement.
If you are unconfortable with this (and your players too) then either play E6 or give out fixed AC and to hit adjusts of +1 every full 5 levels and +2 every full 10 levels and you should be golden - but make sure that you players don't mind finding another "nothing valuable powerwise" among the BBEG possessions.
You do realize that some people play the game for more than the "hey, a new shiny" factor, right?
Most assuredly, but that doesnt mean that 'hey a new shiny' isnt a fun part of the game. At least for me I love getting a new item that boosts my character. I love handing such items out to my players. I dont have a problem with the classic dungeon crawl, killing monsters and taking their stuff.
Now I too would like to see something from proffessional game designers where this could be tweaked, dialing out magic items and either dialing down monsters or dialing in innane pc abilities, but we will have to wait and see if we get that from paizo or a 3pp.
E6 as a rules system is pretty great for this.
Not really.
E6 is a complete rules hack designed to keep the characters feeling "heroic" (levels 6 or below) without ever letting them develop "superheroic" powers.
Instead of rising to "higher levels" as the OP seems to want to do, E6 prevents that entirely. Saying E6 is a good substitute rules system for "higher levels" is like saying a bicycle is a good substitute for a Porshe.
I'm not saying E6 is bad, if that's what you're into (some people really like bicycles), but it certainly is not "great for this" (meaning, it's not great for playing at higher levels - which is what the OP wants to do).
Never worry about it as my character has Vow of Poverty.
And that is just a mechanical replacement for the very things the OP is concerned about. Most characters have a collection of magic items; you have a collection of innate abilities that do almost exactly the same thing.
Mechanically, it's the same, except you had to burn two feats to get it, but you can't have your stuff stolen or suppressed. Oh, and your ability is very far from Core Pathfinder rules, coming from a 3.5 splat book that, AFAIK, is banned by more DMs than any other book except Bo9S.
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Never worry about it as my character has Vow of Poverty.And that is just a mechanical replacement for the very things the OP is concerned about. Most characters have a collection of magic items; you have a collection of innate abilities that do almost exactly the same thing.
Mechanically, it's the same, except you had to burn two feats to get it, but you can't have your stuff stolen or suppressed. Oh, and your ability is very far from Core Pathfinder rules, coming from a 3.5 splat book that, AFAIK, is banned by more DMs than any other book except Bo9S.
I don't know...BoED and BoVD seems to be banned WAY more the Bo9S around here and on the boards. I think you just hear less about the BoED and BoVD because you just assumed those two books just won't be allowed.
I don't think the game is TOO dependent upon magic items. But it is dependent if you want to run it as it is expected to be run. The CR system and the RAW expect the PCs to have X amount of wealth in gear to handle CR appropriate bestiary creatures. This is a fantasy setting since we have people fighting mythological monsters such as demons, dragons and so forth we have to expect they weild items that enhance their abilities as humans no matter how skilled will have a hard time fighting off that fire breathing, genius level intelligent, and massively strong Dragon! ;-)
Now I think Pathfinder has actually reduced dependency on many of the basic stat builders and so forth by providing the classes, in my opinion all of the classes, with abilities that scale with the level and played properly can be useful from level 1 to 20.
But if you are asking for a game without magic items, I would suggest actually looking at another system as Pathfinder and the old 3. editions are require items to work properly with out heavy re-writing.
EDIT: note that yes if you run with almost all NPC villians you can be quiet a bit more balanced but I would also have to say if you run few magic items then casters become a little OP vs. Fightery types... then again maybe the fighter will make more saves.
Just my 2 cents- but then again I have yet to find magic items game breaking or troublesome. Remember if you do decide to change the way treasure and magic items are handled in your game- you are only doing it wrong if you stop having fun!
PFRPG isn't dependent enough on magic items.
Seriously. This is like asking "is Coke better than Pepsi?" 3.5 was designed as it was, and PFRPG doesn't veer very far on any given rule mechanic. I like it just fine the way it is. Others may not. You need to form your own opinion on topics like this.
A large staple of fantasy is the magic doofus. Warriors have their magic swords, wizards their staffs (with a nob on the end) and halflings their awesome rings of cosmic evil.
To have these is necessary, and to not have them influence the game is silly. BUT ... Pathfinder has allowed ways out of the impasse of not finding the right items.
If your fighter doesn't have the right armour and weapon, it takes five skill points and one feat for him to be able to make his own. No other version of D&D has had that facility before for the non-casting classes.
It's a bit depressing as a GM to spend a lot of time trying to encourage exploration and discovery when the players see everything as just liquidation for their own desired equipment kit.
This is not new to pathfinder or even 3.5. The idea that adventures delve in to dungeons, kill monsters and take their stuff is as old as the game itself. And as soon as looting began, figuring out how to take everything that wasnt nailed down (and even those things too as well as the nails) followed shortly there after.
As I said upthread, get rid of the stat boosters, leave magic arms and armor in the game, give the players inherent stat boosts at certain levels ( but convert deflection bonuses into dodge bonuses ^^ ) and adjust the amount of gold per level down. I even had made a chart in the beta playtest ( excluding the gold/level ).
One of the giant flaws (?) of D&D (3.5 and earlier) was it's enormous dependency on magical items to balance the characters at medium and upper levels. Does Pathfinder still have this flaw, or are the characters more balanced?
Pathfinder doesn't have a dependency on magical items. The CR/EL system has a dependency on magical items.
If you remove the CR system, what do you have? Some encounters are easy, some hard, and some challenge the group just right. Remove magical items, and some encounters are hard, some are easy, and some are just right.
The CR system is a tool. You don't use a hammer to paint your house, so if magical power is changes, the CR system gets changed.
Or you could just scrap it, since the CR system was never intended to be the "end all be all" of encounter design. It is a tool to help DMs with the process, and if you make ever encounter "level appropriate," you might as well just keep everyone at 1st level, since the ratio of character power to enemy power never changes. There's a name for that game: Checkers.
You do realize that some people play the game for more than the "hey, a new shiny" factor, right?
And how would that be a problem at all?
If they don't care for magic items, then just give them out for them in order to be inside the green spot of the CR of Bestiary Monsters for no extra work at all.
If you really want a session with low to no magic because it fits your camapign world (a gaslamp setting for instance would only have ritualistic items instead of +x magic), you could always substitute mundane items (beyond masterwork) that fill the same role.
If all else fails and you absolutely do not want +x items in your game, then you have to adjust the bestiary opponents ac, saves, to hit and damage reduction which would be some work, but hardly a lot for such a fundamental change of the rules.
If your fighter doesn't have the right armour and weapon, it takes five skill points and one feat for him to be able to make his own. No other version of D&D has had that facility before for the non-casting classes.
I find that makes the problem even worse, as it potentially further concentrates on getting just the magic item you want, rather than what is found. Further, it encourages locust-like wealth gathering, stripping the enemies and countryside of everything sellable so that the fighter has enough gold to make his fancy custom made weapon or armor.
It's a bit depressing as a GM to spend a lot of time trying to encourage exploration and discovery when the players see everything as just liquidation for their own desired equipment kit.
As opposed to stripping everything in sight in order to visit the magic shop, for example? If I have players fixating only on loot, then I generally place time and load constraints on them. It's an age-old problem with simple solutions and it happens when gear that is given isn't what they want. Actually, it happens then sometimes too.
Yes, I can see your point, but that's a problem with the players, not the game. If you want a low magic setting that does not nerf certain classes <cough>fighter<cough> then allow something like a heritage item - he uses his father's sword. At 2nd level, he has grown used to it, it becomes masterwork. At 3rd level he notices that it seems to have special properties (+1), as he awakens the spirit of his forefathers ...
It is if you let it get that way. While my groups tend to be 'Collectors of Fine Items', it gives them a focus they enjoy. They crawl into sages homes, Old Timers from a certain place, look up old tales of magnificent weapons/armor/items and go digging for them! They basically write half their own adventures for me! Gotta love it.
While I think the mechanics ( which I hate thinking about ) do almost require you to let your PCs load up on magic if you don't adjust your world or Pre Made Adventures.
I've lessened the impact, at least to me by using items that give stat boosts 3/day. That way, the PCs usually know they can 'Amp it Up' if they need to in a key fight or situation. Keeps them basically on a level playing field with the outside world but they can still take on the BBEG with an evil grin on their faces.
And NEVER let them buy the Magic Item Compendium if you want to keep your sanity! One of my PCs thinks every major city should have a friggin Magic Item Wall*Mart in it.
Hope some of this helped.
Have Fun out there!!
~ W ~
...makes the problem even worse because then players can really aim for...
...I'm kind of tempted to switch to the Conan d20 system at this point...
I still do not see what the problem is with giving the players what they want unless it's always and instantly.
Also switching systems is a rather severe step for a problem that can be easily fixed:
- ban detect magic
- give the players all the +x items they want and need to keep them inside the CR for easy playing
- use the time that you do not have to use in order to adjust monsters to invente very nice and theme-ful items that require the same slots as the +x items and let your players choose between one or the other
In my experience that usually does the trick.
In a Kingmaker game that I'm playing in that starts this weekend we're trying something new. The DM (Disciple of Sakura, if he happens to be floating around) is reducing wealth by level somewhat and all characters get an automatic progression of basic enhancement/deflection/resistance bonuses similar to how the Vow of Poverty functions. Weapons have an enchantment that makes them "magic" allowing them to overcome DR/magic but otherwise with no effect, meaning you can spend all of you money on interesting and flavorful stuff as opposed to the same-old bonuses.
I'm mostly curious about how it will work out myself. Admittedly a bit leery as I don't know for certain how much he is planning to modify our expected wealth. In most games it wouldn't matter as much, but I like the idea of spending a lot of my found treasure to enhance the kingdom. Admittedly, I'm also the only really gear dependent character in the party. Everyone else is a caster or monk.
I still do not see what the problem is with giving the players what they want unless it's always and instantly.I guess the problem I see is that the system creates an expectation of desires that can continually manifest into meta-game elements. One player continually tracks his wealth in relation to the "wealth by level" charts and points out if we are behind, stuff like that...
Off topic, but I had a player who did that once and it was really frustrating. Especially since he tended to bring it up by whining in the middle of game ("Well, DQ hasn't given us our proper WBL equipment yet, or else we would have the thing we need to foo the foo.") rather than just talk to me about it between sessions so I could explain to him what was going on (which was that the particular situation they were in, it didn't make sense to hide gold under every rock to make them up to par with WBL, but I was toning back the encounters or giving them NPC assistance if needed and not invasive. And that I was well aware they didn't have the magic bullet to foo the foo, the point was for them to use creative problem solving to deal with the foo instead, as they were more than capable skill and class ability wise to come up with multiple solutions).
It is an issue with the player pool that I currently have. I've played with lots of different people, but in my current area it is dominated by "gamist" players. I've been quite vocal that this current campaign is "simulationist" in vision, so there is that rub. Still, I know that if I was using a completely different system, that didn't have built into it an expectation for a magic item treadmill, then a lot of meta-game nonsense would evaporate.Still, for the group it's Pathfinder. So really just the broad criticism I have with the issue of magic items is that I wish Paizo would do the heavy lifting, put out a supplement that worked out the math so that I can hit a dial switch, turn it to "low magic," have the changes easily cascade and propagate through the system, and then just dive in to play.
I could houserule a lot of things, but the swarm of gamists would whine too much... they already have over some changes already made. They want a very RAW game. So what I'd love is a RAW game that emphasized a different set of expectations. I see that Pathfinder is completely doable in this way, I just don't want to spend all of the long hours sorting it all out, but I'd happily pay Paizo to do it for me.
I haven't finished reading through the Game Mastery Guide yet, and one hopes they have some guidelines for such things.
I dont know about dependancy as a whole, but I strongly desire a game where stat boost items are not needed. I would be hugely in favor of a high point buy or liberal dice rolling method in our game with a ban on stat boost items. I would love to have my belt and head slots back for things that provide more flavor and more unique options than just getting my strength up to par for my level etc. Alternatively I have always loved the traditional fantasy concept of the hero with one fantastic magic item and little to nothing else, but its a little tough to do unless the thing levels with you as it will be to strong at low levels and to weak at higher in most cases. Yes I know there are splat rules for this, but my DM has never been a fan.