I'm aware that the wizards in the Tolkien verse are called Istari, but everytime I hear it I think of Ishtar.
Well, even if historically she was not specially associated with magic, in fantasy and D&D she is often considered as the goddess of love, war and magic. So that would fit...
I think the reason Gish has been so popular is that their isn't really a word for for Warrior/Spellcaster in English. The closest I can think of is Bard, but that's already taken. If we don't want to stick to English we could use the word Istar which is elven for magician. Since 1st edition elves where all fighter/wizards I think it could be a good choice.'Bard' would be better for this than what its used for, wouldn't it?
disclaimer: no I'm not recommending anyone change it.
Bard has the implied association with storytelling, music, and "the knack" more so than the association with magic, IMO.
Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
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Kirpan....
Wikipedia says: "The kirpan is both a defensive weapon and a symbol. Physically it is an instrument of "ahimsa" or non-violence. The principle of ahimsa is to actively prevent violence, not to simply stand by idly whilst violence is being done. To that end, the kirpan is a tool to be used to prevent violence from being done to a defenseless person when all other means to do so have failed. Symbolically, the kirpan represents the power of truth to cut through untruth."
So, non-violent, peace symbol. Doesn't really fit with the concept of a fighter/mage. Also, it is Sikh, so this suggests it's HIGHLY regional (Vudra). That'd be cool, but also would limit it as a universal class concept.
Maugris.....
I like this! About as equally as athame. ;-)
I hear folks on the "athame" is an object, so you might as well call it "cross". Are you disliking this because you are pagan, and it rubs you the wrong way? Because, hey, if I had divine class that had abilities based on selflessness and personal sacrifice, "cross" or "crucifixian" would be spot on.
"Athame" sort of works because it's a blade that is used to channel magic. It suggests not only the blade wielded by the character, but that the character himself is the weapon. Personally, I'd prefer a derivative of the work, like "arthame" a bit better, if only to separate it a bit more from "athame", and make some people less bothered.
Hey, wait a second...
If this is for Pathfinder and it's going to be mainly used in Golarion, the Pathfinder world, why not connecting the name of the class to the god of magic?
Nethys...
So, what about Nethrite? Nethrym? Netharim? Nethron?
"Athame" sort of works because it's a blade that is used to channel magic. It suggests not only the blade wielded by the character, but that the character himself is the weapon. Personally, I'd prefer a derivative of the work, like "arthame" a bit better, if only to separate it a bit more from "athame", and make some people less bothered.
Athamist?
While "athame" does have an intriguing thematic fit, I just can't see naming a class after an object (even an appropriate one) personally. It's kinda like naming a fighter a "sword", a barbarian an "axe", and a ranger a "bow"… or even a wizard a "staff". The biggest drawback is that once again, it's a very specific "weapon": a dagger or knife. It has a similar problem to naming the class a "spellsword" or "mageblade". If athame was more generic in its weapon-like nature, it would get more traction with me.
If I'm not mistaken, I think there was a similar sounding word early on that had something to do with elvishness. Artha or Arthame?
EDIT: Alvar it was… with maybe a couple of other iterations.
The only magical martial artist I know of from history is the ... ninja!
I've always liked the Indian kshatriya, though that feels like it would have more of a divine connection than an arcane.
Dear Erik Mona,
The thread has begun to get light on new suggestions and heavy on debate. Is this what you want? Are you still actively seeking new suggestions? Is the debate influencing anyone's decision making there at Paizo on which name, if any of these, to choose?
I haven't added any suggestions in a long time once the thread got to the point that it contained several dozen solid, rule-following class names. If you're wanting more from us, I'll happily go back to scouring dictionaries and thesauri to find more.
I brought this up before:
Maugrist or Maugridon or Maugrian Names derived from Maugris, one of the 12 paladins of Charlemagne who was purported to have sorcerous powers.
This post is largely anecdotal, so everyone may just want to skip to the end.
Years ago I bought a book by David Gemmell, entitled Knights of Dark Renown. It concerns a bunch of (almost) ordinary people who become the Knights of the Gabala. They did so because of evil stirring in the heart of their land and the old Knights had disappeared through a demon-haunted gateway between worlds. Of the original Knights of the Gabala, a number of them were accomplished sorcerers, particularly their leader, Samildanach.
I liked the story so much that I did more research on it. I found that there were a number of real-world myths presented in the Mabinogion where witches and the like take to the field like knights attired in full armor. The story of Peredur, Son of Evrawg has a battle with ‘the Black Man’ a warrior-wizard who uses a series of spells (teleport being one) to escape Peredur. The ‘Black Man was from Castle Ysbidinogyl I think. He was also known as the King of Tortures.
The story end like this: For the third time the hag slew a man of Arthur’s before Peredur’s eyes, and Peredur drew his sword and smote the witch on the crest of her helmet so that the helmet and all the armour were split in two. And she raised a shout, and ordered the rest of the witches to flee, and said it was Peredur who was destined to slay all the witches of Caer Loyw [sic]
Caer Loyw was also referred to as Castle of Wonders, the Proud Castle, the Castle of Marvels and the Maiden’s Castle (and the Grail Castle? I am not sure), jumping in location from Gloucestershire to Spain. The castle was ruled by Klinschor, a sorcerer of some power. Klinschor appeared in the poem Parzifal and was the basis for Klingsor, who appeared in Parsifal, music-drama by Wagner. Both works were rooted in Peredur. Klinschor/Klingsor was trying to gain acceptance as a Knight of the Grail but was unable to remain chaste. He was mutilated and developed magical ability as a result. A Sorcerer-Knight! Cool.
For anyone who wanted to read the Mabiongion, may find it here.
(As a challenge, see if you replace Peredur with Anakin and watch how he is refused his petition to become a Knight, but becomes one anyway. Then, find the reference to the makeup Queen Amidala was wearing in Phantom Menace. Magic-Using Knights? A Black Man who was the King of Tortures? Where have we seen that before? It will mess with your head.
To end this post by at least giving up something positive, there are a few real world words here:
Gabala (real world word –I think it means ‘conquest’ or ‘invasion’ in some languages and is considered a variant of Cabala, which is the definition of several types of mysticism, but is only by inference that it is related to fighting arcanists, so it's flimsy)
Klingsor (A fighting arcanist from a Wagner Opera).
Maybe parallels could be drawn with Klingsor and Soulblighter one of the fallen lords who self mutilated to become immortal. His real name was Damas. Maybe Damas? What about Heron after the Heron Guard that appeared in Myth (the game). They were fighting arcanists.
Just throwing it out there.
I still think Athame(or Alvar, I forgot about that one) is a great option.
Would it really be so bad to have a base class that mixes daggers and magic? Must every gish use a long or greatsword?
That's just it. Now they'll all be using daggers! :o)
I still think Athame(or Alvar, I forgot about that one) is a great option.
Would it really be so bad to have a base class that mixes daggers and magic? Must every gish use a long or greatsword?
Personally, I would rather my Gish character to be able to use any weapon they wanted to (including fists) and for the spell-casting part to be mostly if not completely independent of the weapon.
Creative Director
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Dear Erik Mona,
The thread has begun to get light on new suggestions and heavy on debate. Is this what you want? Are you still actively seeking new suggestions? Is the debate influencing anyone's decision making there at Paizo on which name, if any of these, to choose?
I haven't added any suggestions in a long time once the thread got to the point that it contained several dozen solid, rule-following class names. If you're wanting more from us, I'll happily go back to scouring dictionaries and thesauri to find more.
I'm not Erik, but I can answer this question.
The thread has been enormously helpful, and we have more or less settled on the solution. While we haven't discounted the possibility of someone swooping in and getting an even better name, the fact that the names are getting progressively more and more obscure and esoteric tells me that all of the good names have been mentioned already.
Feel free to continue posting suggestions. We'll still be peeking in here for at least a few more days, now and then. But I'm pretty sure what we've chosen will not be changing.
Feel free to continue posting suggestions. We'll still be peeking in here for at least a few more days, now and then. But I'm pretty sure what we've chosen will not be changing.
Stabracadabra! I knew it!
your not going to tell us what it is are you. So mean.
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Dear Erik Mona,
The thread has begun to get light on new suggestions and heavy on debate. Is this what you want? Are you still actively seeking new suggestions? Is the debate influencing anyone's decision making there at Paizo on which name, if any of these, to choose?
I haven't added any suggestions in a long time once the thread got to the point that it contained several dozen solid, rule-following class names. If you're wanting more from us, I'll happily go back to scouring dictionaries and thesauri to find more.
I'm not Erik, but I can answer this question.
The thread has been enormously helpful, and we have more or less settled on the solution. While we haven't discounted the possibility of someone swooping in and getting an even better name, the fact that the names are getting progressively more and more obscure and esoteric tells me that all of the good names have been mentioned already.
Feel free to continue posting suggestions. We'll still be peeking in here for at least a few more days, now and then. But I'm pretty sure what we've chosen will not be changing.
I just basically said the same thing up-page. :P
Feel free to continue posting suggestions. We'll still be peeking in here for at least a few more days, now and then. But I'm pretty sure what we've chosen will not be changing.
So you should tell us in a few days when you have made you final decision so that we could stop using gish sooner. So think about.
I know this breaks the rules, but I'm exhibiting this name again: warrior-mage (or the less eloquent martial-mage)
I only bring it up again because there are literally no existing words (that we know of) to encompass all that this class really is. I'm trying to think at a very base level here. If I was completely new to the game, what name would immediately tell me what the class is about? Every other class name pretty much accurately describes what the class actually is without even knowing the conventions of the game. I've said that I really like warder and myrmidon. I still do like those names, but there is certainly a stretch to make them fit, just as there is a stretch to make warlock fit or athame, and pretty much all of the other great suggestions. Other names that are "new" such as maugrist that come to mean what the class is meant to be don't really translate well to someone new to the game. That may or may not be a bad thing.
There is no stretch to make warrior-mage fit. It encompasses a wide variety of archetypes of what a spellcasting fighter could be, and at the same time is is easily recognizable for what it is, even by someone not familiar with the game. I mention martial-mage simply because there is no repeat of an existing base class name.
Just figured I'd throw that out there.
I hear folks on the "athame" is an object, so you might as well call it "cross". Are you disliking this because you are pagan, and it rubs you the wrong way? Because, hey, if I had divine class that had abilities based on selflessness and personal sacrifice, "cross" or "crucifixian" would be spot on.
I am not offended I just do not see it fitting, You might as well call it Blade, or dagger or cross or cup of spell for as good as the name matches the concept. A Athame is a religious tool, not a weapon and as about appropriate as using a cross for the name.
It simply does not match.
My favorites so far:
Warlock
Myrmidon
Athame (or Arthame or Athamist)
They choose Fishy!
They choose Fishy!
Mr.Fishy is a class all of his own.
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Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
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I hear folks on the "athame" is an object, so you might as well call it "cross". Are you disliking this because you are pagan, and it rubs you the wrong way? Because, hey, if I had divine class that had abilities based on selflessness and personal sacrifice, "cross" or "crucifixian" would be spot on.I am not offended I just do not see it fitting, You might as well call it Blade, or dagger or cross or cup of spell for as good as the name matches the concept. A Athame is a religious tool, not a weapon and as about appropriate as using a cross for the name.
It simply does not match.
Point taken. I wanted to understand whether it was belief-based. Not being a pagan practitioner, I saw several posts that conveyed a distaste for the use of the word. Had to see if that was it.
I guess my thing is that I CAN see calling a fighter a "sword", a cleric a "symbol", a rogue a "blackjack", or a wizard a "wand". They are titles. But, that's just me.
I also sort of agree that every class has a name that basically describes what it is. Even the APG classes. Athame sort of requires that you know what that is (heck, I didn't...but Google be praised!) before you "get it".
(shrug) it sounds like Paizo has made their choice, and it has been a fun thread that got a LOT of us thinking! Heck, we even got a new member to the Boards out of this! Welcome!
Well done, everyone! This is what makes the Paizo community what it is!
"Athame"
How are people pronouncing Athame? I'm interested because whilst it is all well and good to throw names around, how they are sounded is just as important. You have to say them at the gaming table at the very least.
From dealings with Wiccans (an ex-GF), I have been advised to see it as 'Ath-a-MAY'. I guess the only other option is 'Ath-AIM' so I am curious how -the people who like 'Athame'- wants it used?
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Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
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"Athame"
How are people pronouncing Athame? I'm interested because whilst it is all well and good to throw names around, how they are sounded is just as important. You have to say them at the gaming table at the very least.
From dealings with Wiccans (an ex-GF), I have been advised to see it as 'Ath-a-MAY'. I guess the only other option is 'Ath-AIM' so I am curious how -the people who like 'Athame'- wants it used?
ah tha may, here.
Fighters could easily be called 'swords'...in an army, units are often delineated by weapons. The chinese used to call their soldiers 'pengs', which was their word for 'swords'.
i.e. "How many swords ride with him?"
No great shakes to extend that to casters. "How many wands with him? And altar-boys?"
:)
===Aelryinth
Rook
ah tha may, here.
Fighters could easily be called 'swords'...in an army, units are often delineated by weapons. The chinese used to call their soldiers 'pengs', which was their word for 'swords'.
i.e. "How many swords ride with him?"
No great shakes to extend that to casters. "How many wands with him? And altar-boys?"
:)
===Aelryinth
That's fine in a descriptive context, but it breaks down when applied to game terms; in this particular case, a class name.
It's just one of many reasonings to help pare down the number of names that have been submitted here.
Shane LeRose's alias: Hexcaliber
or even:
Hexcalibur
Another segue-word, I know, but this one uses the magic sword post from a while back and combines it with Hex. 'Hexe' being the Germanic word for Witch. Excalibur being the sword of Arthur. Witchsword. You cannot go wrong.
Anyways, I think I'm done!
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I'm not Erik, but I can answer this question.
The thread has been enormously helpful, and we have more or less settled on the solution. While we haven't discounted the possibility of someone swooping in and getting an even better name, the fact that the names are getting progressively more and more obscure and esoteric tells me that all of the good names have been mentioned already.
Feel free to continue posting suggestions. We'll still be peeking in here for at least a few more days, now and then. But I'm pretty sure what we've chosen will not be changing.
Do we get to know what it is? A hint even?
My brain will not allow this to go unknown. Do you want a loyal fan to have a brain aneurysm before he can even buy whatever book this will be in?
Feel free to continue posting suggestions. We'll still be peeking in here for at least a few more days, now and then. But I'm pretty sure what we've chosen will not be changing.Stabracadabra! I knew it!
I hope so.
I hope so so hard.
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I hear folks on the "athame" is an object, so you might as well call it "cross". Are you disliking this because you are pagan, and it rubs you the wrong way? Because, hey, if I had divine class that had abilities based on selflessness and personal sacrifice, "cross" or "crucifixian" would be spot on.I am not offended I just do not see it fitting, You might as well call it Blade, or dagger or cross or cup of spell for as good as the name matches the concept. A Athame is a religious tool, not a weapon and as about appropriate as using a cross for the name.
It simply does not match.
Point taken. I wanted to understand whether it was belief-based. Not being a pagan practitioner, I saw several posts that conveyed a distaste for the use of the word. Had to see if that was it.
I guess my thing is that I CAN see calling a fighter a "sword", a cleric a "symbol", a rogue a "blackjack", or a wizard a "wand". They are titles. But, that's just me.
I also sort of agree that every class has a name that basically describes what it is. Even the APG classes. Athame sort of requires that you know what that is (heck, I didn't...but Google be praised!) before you "get it".
(shrug) it sounds like Paizo has made their choice, and it has been a fun thread that got a LOT of us thinking! Heck, we even got a new member to the Boards out of this! Welcome!
Well done, everyone! This is what makes the Paizo community what it is!
Not offended, really. Yes, I'm pagan, but it's not about "offense". I just feel that because it's a tool, an object, it seems awkward to me.
I always liked Arcanamach.
Mach is derived from the Greek machy meaning to fight. The name can mean to fight with magic. I know WotC used it in a prestige class, which is where got it from anyway. Made up a few base classes called Arcanamach because of it.
Nothing says stabby-blast like the letter W. Warrior, Witch...
WARDER
WARLOCK
(just for Kirth)
Shane LeRose's alias: Hexcaliber
or even:Hexcalibur
Another segue-word, I know, but this one uses the magic sword post from a while back and combines it with Hex. 'Hexe' being the Germanic word for Witch. Excalibur being the sword of Arthur. Witchsword. You cannot go wrong.
Anyways, I think I'm done!
Only because I want to steal post 500. I'm plugging:
Hexcalibur
again :P
That is the kind of thing I was talking about with making one up. Awesome. I like the first two quite a bit! I suspect, though, that this won't be a Golarion-specific class...or is it?Hey, wait a second...
If this is for Pathfinder and it's going to be mainly used in Golarion, the Pathfinder world, why not connecting the name of the class to the god of magic?
Nethys...So, what about Nethrite? Nethrym? Netharim? Nethron?
Unlikely. As a base class they would want it available to as many people as possible, so I would be very surprised if they put it in a Golarion specific book.