Some magic items say you HAVE to have the spell prerequisites, whereas with others you can simply up the DC by 5 and bypass the prerequisite altogether.
Which are potions? Can my sorcerer with a limited spell list (but min/maxed spellcraft) make potions of healing? Or am I stuck with potions of enlarge person (the only potionable spell I know)?
Some magic items say you HAVE to have the spell prerequisites, whereas with others you can simply up the DC by 5 and bypass the prerequisite altogether.
Which are potions? Can my sorcerer with a limited spell list (but min/maxed spellcraft) make potions of healing? Or am I stuck with potions of enlarge person (the only potionable spell I know)?
The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in
the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or
bard) and must provide any material component or focus the
spell requires.
Sorry this means you can only create potions of spells you can cast. If you want you can grab yourself a level of cleric or a level of Alchemist and you can make it via the formula rule stated in the class. other then that its not much use if you have the feat maybe you can 'retrain' or ask the DM if you can change it. Its up to you. Sorry this wasn't the answer you were looking for but I hope it helped.
Some magic items say you HAVE to have the spell prerequisites, whereas with others you can simply up the DC by 5 and bypass the prerequisite altogether.
Which are potions? Can my sorcerer with a limited spell list (but min/maxed spellcraft) make potions of healing? Or am I stuck with potions of enlarge person (the only potionable spell I know)?
The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.Sorry this means you can only create potions of spells you can cast. If you want you can grab yourself a level of cleric or a level of Alchemist and you can make it via the formula rule stated in the class. other then that its not much use if you have the feat maybe you can 'retrain' or ask the DM if you can change it. Its up to you. Sorry this wasn't the answer you were looking for but I hope it helped.
Um...no it doesn't. Every magic item description says that. That passage alone doesn't change the fact that you can bypass it by upping the DC.
See for yourself...
Creating Magic Weapons
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the weapon, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the weapon triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the weapon's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
Creating Wondrous Items
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
See what I mean? I don't think anyone would tell you that you HAVE to have the spells for wondrous items and magic arms and armor, provided you can beat the increased Spellcraft DC for not having them OR you could get the spell some other way (such as having a second caster cast it in your stead).
That means we need some other determining factor. Are there any OTHER passages that you know of?
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
That combined with the fact that potions are neither spell completion or spell trigger (the only types of items where it specifically says you need to have the spell at hand) is what made me ask the question in the first place.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spelltrigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
I think you were going for this quote and that's fine if the game says you can increase the DC then that's fine.
So this would mean if you were a Sorcerer with a wis. of 10 you could do this.You must increase the DC by +5 for the fact that you don't know the spell. Arguably, you must increase the DC +5 more for not having a high enough wis to cast Cure light wounds.
And it can even be argued that you have to go +5 more because you do not me the prerequisite to be a divine caster. (But that can fall back in with the spell is not know.)
To make a potion of cure light wounds you are required to have to be a divine caster with a wisdom of 11+ and the spell prepared (or known). sense you fufill none of that but the CL (and really you don't sense you are not a Divine caster but they don't specify so you can slide by) I would say you can create them by increasing the DC by 10 (5 for the spell and 5 for the lack of a high enough ability score required to cast the spell)
That's about all I can say really I think in the end as a DM myself. I may let a party of people that don't have a character that can make them without this method, use it. But otherwise would have to say it seems a little off that means that you have to roll. a DC of 16 for a Sorcerer (with a 10 wis) to make a potion of cure light wounds (1d8+1)
I guess you can argue that is says you need to increase it for each thing you don't fulfill that the item needs. and if you ask me that divine caster, the known spell, and the needed ability score(assuming you don't have it).
So really I would say its up to your DM to allow you to use that. And with that rule given I would have to say as a by-the-book GM I would have to say you can do it with a +15 to the DC.
The easiest potions because simple for you now because you can create potions of any spell you don't have by increase the DC by 5.
I think you were going for this quote and that's fine if the game says you can increase the DC then that's fine.
So this would mean if you were a Sorcerer with a wis. of 10 you could do this.You must increase the DC by +5 for the fact that you don't know the spell. Arguably, you must increase the DC +5 more for not having a high enough wis to cast Cure light wounds.
And it can even be argued that you have to go +5 more because you do not me the prerequisite to be a divine caster. (But that can fall back in with the spell is not know.)
To make a potion of cure light wounds you are required to have to be a divine caster with a wisdom of 11+ and the spell prepared (or known). sense you fufill none of that but the CL (and really you don't sense you are not a Divine caster but they don't specify so you can slide by) I would say you can create them by increasing the DC by 10 (5 for the spell and 5 for the lack of a high enough ability score required to cast the spell)
That's about all I can say really I think in the end as a DM myself. I may let a party of people that don't have a character that can make them without this method, use it. But otherwise would have to say it seems a little off that means that you have to roll. a DC of 16 for a Sorcerer (with a 10 wis) to make a potion of cure light wounds (1d8+1)
I guess you can argue that is says you need to increase it for each thing you...
I personally believe the only real prerequisite outside of the item creation feat is the spell itself (meaning ONLY a single +5 increase) when it comes to potions, but had I been in your game, I would likely have accepted your ruling (as I can just take 10 and get a 23 at 3rd-level anyways).
I personally believe the only real prerequisite outside of the item creation feat is the spell itself (meaning ONLY a single +5 increase) when it comes to potions, but had I been in your game, I would likely have accepted your ruling (as I can just take 10 and get a 23 at 3rd-level anyways).
I understand that it looks like the only one but if you think about it you have to meet all the requirements to do it normally or roll for in place of the ones you can't. Like I said its can be argued...
Exactly so even increasing it by 15 for everything would only make it a 21 for a first level potion... and that's means you can do it at 3rd level by taking a 10 anyway. So its irrelevant for 1st level spells at first level.
I would ask you DM what they would require you to increase it by. In my game personally I would say 15 but they my rule different just like in your game I am sure you would make it only a +5 to the DC.
Which now makes me wonder if my alchemist can do that. Hmm.
Wow, Ravingdork, I never really thought about this. The restriction of absolutely needing to know the spell applies only to spell completion and spell trigger items though, whereas potions are use activated. I guess you've found a loophole where Brew Potion allows access to any spell...well, any spell which can be put into a potion...
It feels like we must be missing something here, but I don't see what it is. I wonder if the designers really intended Brew Potion to allow access to off list spells, but I think it could actually be a good thing since Brew Potion was always one of the worst item creation feats.
Anyhow, I don't think there's any need to have a Wisdom of 10 to make a potion of Cure Light Wounds. Cure Light Wounds can be found on the Bard list, which is arcane and Charisma based. I'm also not sure if the ability score is really a prereq if you aren't actually casting the spell. It doesn't matter much for this case, but the idea of a rather stupid caster who can only use spells over 1st level by making potions kind of amuses me.
There's also a feat somewhere which lets non-casters create magic items. It would be cool if that could be combined with Brew Potion to let a party without a spellcaster brew their own healing potions.
There's also a feat somewhere which lets non-casters create magic items. It would be cool if that could be combined with Brew Potion to let a party without a spellcaster brew their own healing potions.
That feat only applies to armor, weapons, and wondrous items--which is really weird considering they list alternate creation skills for every other kind of magic item as well.
*bump* Does anyone know the truth of it either way?
The feat is Master Craftsman, and I for one can see no reason why a character with Craft (Alchemy) should not brew potions. I'd only give it the first +5 DC for not knowing the spell - after all, a bard could prepare a potion of cure light wounds and not have a penalty for not being a divine caster or having a high enough wisdom.
That said, from what I can see with the exception of scrolls it should be possible to make any kind of item without the right spells. Scrolls I would exclude simply because you could otherwise have a wizard writing scrolls for spells he doesn't know, then record them into his spellbook and learning them ...
I REALLY don't think ability scores count as perquisites for the purpose. In fact I'm pretty certain that if it isn't listed in the perquisites section of the magical item, then it isn't.
Dabbler, I think by the RAW wands are out as well as scrolls since the "you must have the spell" rule applies to both spell trigger and spell completion items. Frankly I think that's for the best since there should be something good about Brew Potion. Granted, I think the fact you can brew any potion without knowing the spell might be just a loophole in the RAW. It would be interesting to know if it was intentional or not.
Dabbler, I think by the RAW wands are out as well as scrolls since the "you must have the spell" rule applies to both spell trigger and spell completion items. Frankly I think that's for the best since there should be something good about Brew Potion. Granted, I think the fact you can brew any potion without knowing the spell might be just a loophole in the RAW. It would be interesting to know if it was intentional or not.
I can agree with that, yes. I can think of skills that 'replace' the need for spell effects when using Master Craftsman, and Craft (alchemy) certainly feels right for potions. Wands I can agree with as being out of bounds as they directly duplicate spell effects and there is no skill I can think of that would be applicable to making them, as with scrolls.
So if we agree that Weapons, armour, universal items and potions can be made with the skills and without the right spells, and that wands and scrolls cannot, what about staves, rods and rings?
The only items called out as absolutely requiring the spells as prereqs is Spell Completion and Spell Trigger. So Rings and Rods are in. Staves would have to do some reading.
Staves are spell trigger items like wands, so they're out.
I think you were going for this quote and that's fine if the game says you can increase the DC then that's fine.
So this would mean if you were a Sorcerer with a wis. of 10 you could do this.
You must increase the DC by +5 for the fact that you don't know the spell. Arguably, you must increase the DC +5 more for not having a high enough wis to cast Cure light wounds.
And it can even be argued that you have to go +5 more because you do not me the prerequisite to be a divine caster. (But that can fall back in with the spell is not know.)
To make a potion of cure light wounds you are required to have to be a divine caster with a wisdom of 11+ and the spell prepared (or known). sense you fufill none of that but the CL (and really you don't sense you are not a Divine caster but they don't specify so you can slide by) I would say you can create them by increasing the DC by 10 (5 for the spell and 5 for the lack of a high enough ability score required to cast the spell)
A bard with a charisma of 11 can cast cure light wounds....
The prerequisites for cure light potions are brew potion, caster level 1, ability to cast cure light wounds. The only thing you must have is brew potion. Since potions are not spell trigger(wands and staves) or Spell completion(scrolls), everything else can be avoided at +5 to the DC.
A sorcerer would have +5 to their DC. A fighter would have a +10 to their DC unless they had the feat that allowed them to use their skill ranks in place of their caster level.
If it helps, think of brewing cure potions as mixing medicinal herbs, then infusing it with magic. Classes with cure light woulds would have an easier time infusing the mixture because their magic is more suited to healing, but other classes can do it.
So you can make rings, rods, weapons, armour, universal items and potions without knowing the requisite spells and with Master Craftsman as long as you have the appropriate Craft skill. Sounds good to me.
So you can make rings, rods, weapons, armour, universal items and potions without knowing the requisite spells and with Master Craftsman as long as you have the appropriate Craft skill. Sounds good to me.
Doesn't Master Craftsman limit you to magic arms and armor, as well as wondrous items?
Since this thread has been resurrected, I'll throw my 2 cp in here as well:
yes, Brew Potion needs spell prerequsites. The reason is in the rules as written (quoted below with some *added emphasis*):
Note that all items have *prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites* must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."All items have prerequisites in their descriptions". These are specifically the prerequisites that can be omitted, at the cost of a higher creation DC.
If you look at the section on "Potions" in the "Magic Items" chapter, you'll find that (unlike most items) individual potions do not, in fact, have descriptions (or "CONSTRUCTION" sections, which is where the "Requirements"/prerequsites are actually shown). Thus, they have no "prerequisites" for the purposes of the originally-quoted paragraph. All they have is the "requisite item creation feat", which is quite clear that you do, in fact, need to know a spell to make a potion from it (as is the "Creating Potions" section on p. 551).Potions have no prerequisites that can be omitted by the mechanism described in the paragraph; thus, they work as their creation feat (and other similar text) describes, which specifies that you have to know the spell.
Are you seriously arguing that, because the game designers didn't want to waste space typing out every possible kind of potion, that potions don't have prerequisites? That's absurd.
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Are you seriously arguing that, because the game designers didn't want to waste space typing out every possible kind of potion, that potions don't have prerequisites? That's absurd.
Don't be so dense and argumentative. What you are trying to argue is clearly not RAI and almost certainly munchkin and you are accusing others of absurdity? You are trying to view this question on rules from the most acute angle as possible, so to justify your position on based on half-baked opinions of what the term "Requirement" means.
The king wears no clothes.
Are you seriously arguing that, because the game designers didn't want to waste space typing out every possible kind of potion, that potions don't have prerequisites? That's absurd.Don't be so dense and argumentative. What you are trying to argue is clearly not RAI and almost certainly munchkin and you are accusing others of absurdity? You are trying to view this question on rules from the most acute angle as possible, so to justify your position on based on half-baked opinions of what the term "Requirement" means.
The king wears no clothes.
I wasn't saying that the idea that you need the spell to craft the potion was in itself absurd (it isn't), just that particular argument that ACW was making.
Howie23 said it best:
There is no statblock for potions; as such, I find the argument that the spell prerequisite doesn't appear in that missing statblock, and thus cannot be waived by the skill increase to lack any weight for me. It is immaterial whether the publisher chose to make a long, trivial, and redundant list of such item descriptions. I see that as a publishing decision, not a rules decision.
Fortunately, a close reading of the rules still yields the result that is almost certainly the intended one: No, you can't make a potion of a spell you don't know.
I'm still not seeing it. There is just as much evidence refuting such a notion as there is supporting it.
Are you seriously arguing that, because the game designers didn't want to waste space typing out every possible kind of potion, that potions don't have prerequisites? That's absurd.They could have just said "Potions: Prerequisites: The spell to be made into a potion." They didn't.
What I actually think happened is that someone said "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Spellcraft was actually used to craft magic items?"
And then someone else said "Yeah, and then with a high Spellcraft score, maybe you could skip some prerequisites!"
To which the first person replied, "Okay, write it up. Oh, but don't let people make wands and scrolls of spells they don't know, that would be silly."Now, maybe they forgot that this left potions potentially ambiguous. Or maybe Person 2 said "Hey, what about Potions?", and Person 1 said "That would be even sillier. No point in wasting the word-count." :) Really, though, I think they just forgot. Fortunately, a close reading of the rules still yields the result that is almost certainly the intended one: No, you can't make a potion of a spell you don't know.
The changes were to make the game more reflective of fantasy literature. In a specific copyrighted story, a dwarf fighter made an amazing magical warhammer for his human barbarian charge. That is something that was flat out impossible under the older sets of crafting rules. That a dwarven master craftman had to take levels in a caster class to be able to craft magic weapons or armor was just one of many jarring problems with the older crafting systems.
Seeing how fantasy literature is full of magical herbs that have mysterious properties, I seriously doubt potions is an accidental omission from the list of things that require a spell.
The spell trigger and spell completion restrictions make sense, but in a world where tanglefoot bags and alchemist fire are possible do you really believe that magic is the ONLY way to make a healing potion?
The changes were to make the game more reflective of fantasy literature. In a specific copyrighted story, a dwarf fighter made an amazing magical warhammer for his human barbarian charge. That is something that was flat out impossible under the older sets of crafting rules. That a dwarven master craftman had to take levels in a caster class to be able to craft magic weapons or armor was just one of many jarring problems with the older crafting systems.Seeing how fantasy literature is full of magical herbs that have mysterious properties, I seriously doubt potions is an accidental omission from the list of things that require a spell.
The spell trigger and spell completion restrictions make sense, but in a world where tanglefoot bags and alchemist fire are possible do you really believe that magic is the ONLY way to make a healing potion?
I was thinking much the same thing.
The changes were to make the game more reflective of fantasy literature. In a specific copyrighted story, a dwarf fighter made an amazing magical warhammer for his human barbarian charge. That is something that was flat out impossible under the older sets of crafting rules. That a dwarven master craftman had to take levels in a caster class to be able to craft magic weapons or armor was just one of many jarring problems with the older crafting systems.Seeing how fantasy literature is full of magical herbs that have mysterious properties, I seriously doubt potions is an accidental omission from the list of things that require a spell.
The spell trigger and spell completion restrictions make sense, but in a world where tanglefoot bags and alchemist fire are possible do you really believe that magic is the ONLY way to make a healing potion?
This is much they way I feel as well.
To which the first person replied, "Okay, write it up. Oh, but don't let people make wands and scrolls of spells they don't know, that would be silly."
Now, maybe they forgot that this left potions potentially ambiguous. Or maybe Person 2 said "Hey, what about Potions?", and Person 1 said "That would be even sillier. No point in wasting the word-count." :) Really, though, I think they just forgot. Fortunately, a close reading of the rules still yields the result that is almost certainly the intended one: No, you can't make a potion of a spell you don't know.
If I recall correctly, there was discussion during the Beta period of a wizard creating scrolls of spells he doesn't know and then writing them into his spellbook. I think most people can agree that's silly and/or unpalatable. Why wands got lumped in with scrolls and why potions didn't is not for me to conjecture.
My two cents: Judging from the number of potions crafted by PCs over the years (almost none), expanding the list of possible potions to brew is a fine idea, so I'll go with that interpretation.
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How about this, how would you rule on Master Craftsman being used to create Elixirs of any spell known?
They would fit in the "single use, use-activated" section for pricing.
Now, if you allow that, would you allow them to make an elixir of any spell that they either have or fake (via the Master Craftsman feat) the caster level of?