What if someone wanted to PA for 1 because they are barely hitting?
In, 3.5 they could for +2 damage (if 2 handed), but not in PF unless they have low BAB.
Lose of choice is never fun.
Let it be stricken from the record that I was the one who started this thread!
Look at me! I'm on top!
I think counting the hat is cheating. :P
In 3.5 power attack was the easiest feat to cheese the game with. Players would declare they were using it and be rolling the dice before they declared how much the were pulling out of the to hit roll. If they rolled well and were questioned by the DM about it they would just say "dude I always pull 4"!
I wish people would just stop using dumb net speak like "nerfed" anytime a weak spot in the rules that is being exploited is fixed. In the end the feat is balanced now and still is a good option for high strength fighters. It never should have been used as part of a combo that disbalances encounters.
Oh and amen on the call about roleplaying being reduced to number crunching these days. I loved 3.5 and I love Pathfinder now. I love having character options. But since the AD&D days I've noticed that the focus on the game has shifted from the story/dungeon/adventure to making optimal character builds. I really miss the old days...
I don't expect a response and won't be hanging around to see if anbody does. I just felt that the original post struck a cord with me and had some time two put my two cense in. Now it's friday night and I have drinking to do. Peace!
In 3.5 power attack was the easiest feat to cheese the game with. Players would declare they were using it and be rolling the dice before they declared how much the were pulling out of the to hit roll. If they rolled well and were questioned by the DM about it they would just say "dude I always pull 4"!
I wish people would just stop using dumb net speak like "nerfed" anytime a weak spot in the rules that is being exploited is fixed. In the end the feat is balanced now and still is a good option for high strength fighters. It never should have been used as part of a combo that disbalances encounters.
Oh and amen on the call about roleplaying being reduced to number crunching these days. I loved 3.5 and I love Pathfinder now. I love having character options. But since the AD&D days I've noticed that the focus on the game has shifted from the story/dungeon/adventure to making optimal character builds. I really miss the old days...I don't expect a response and won't be hanging around to see if anbody does. I just felt that the original post struck a cord with me and had some time two put my two cense in. Now it's friday night and I have drinking to do. Peace!
+1
The loss of variabilty of power attack is more than made up for by the time it saves surely? At high levels the bonus, buffs & de-buffs take enought time without having to declare how much you are PAing.
Also what is the difference really between PAing for 5 & 6 (at high levels) before the dice is even rolled? You cannot be sure of what you get, so unless you only PA for an auto-sucess let the dice decide the outcome.
In 3.5 power attack was the easiest feat to cheese the game with. Players would declare they were using it and be rolling the dice before they declared how much the were pulling out of the to hit roll. If they rolled well and were questioned by the DM about it they would just say "dude I always pull 4"!
I wish people would just stop using dumb net speak like "nerfed" anytime a weak spot in the rules that is being exploited is fixed. In the end the feat is balanced now and still is a good option for high strength fighters. It never should have been used as part of a combo that disbalances encounters.
Oh and amen on the call about roleplaying being reduced to number crunching these days. I loved 3.5 and I love Pathfinder now. I love having character options. But since the AD&D days I've noticed that the focus on the game has shifted from the story/dungeon/adventure to making optimal character builds. I really miss the old days...I don't expect a response and won't be hanging around to see if anbody does. I just felt that the original post struck a cord with me and had some time two put my two cense in. Now it's friday night and I have drinking to do. Peace!
Amen brother, specially for the drinking to do!
Man, I was totally not meaning to start another Power Attack debate! I thought we could just all share horror stories about their friends complaining about cheese being invalidated by the new rules D:
The cheese will be back eventually, as more books are printed and the caster/non-caster power gap widens. That's how splatbooks work. Wizards, Clerics, and Druids get exponentially more power potential for every spell printed that they have access to, as they can add these to their arsenal at will. On the other hand, Feats for melee-types only add power potential in a linear manner, because they have to drop previously planned Feats from their builds in order to add them.
The reason for the Shock Trooper/Leap Attack cheddar in 3.5 was that it was one way to make an effective damage dealer who could almost touch the hem of the pristine robes of CoDzilla. Eventually Pathfinder will reach the same point and you will see some truly ridiculous Feat choices/combinations available to non-casters. And that is best-case scenario...if they don't put those gap closers into the game eventually, then game play past level 8 or 9 becomes even more unbalanced.
You still fail. Seriously, there's an art to it. Repeating the same weak attack doesn't make it less weak, it just makes you look more troll-ish.Yes, obviously I am a troll for pointing out how silly it is to want to penalize your players for knowing which way north is. Maybe they should just spend the 1 gp on a compass and not have to deal with DMs unable to accept that simple spells are simple spells.
Whatev. Go troll someone else, grasshopper, I'm significantly better at it than you and am funny while doing it. Come back when you learn to bait a hook with something worth biting.
Labeling someone a troll doesn't make the fact that they made you appear foolish by pointing out that you have a problem with the unlimited use of a spell that can be entirely replaced by a 1gp item go away.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Labeling someone a troll doesn't make the fact that they made you appear foolish by pointing out that you have a problem with the unlimited use of a spell that can be entirely replaced by a 1gp item go away.You still fail. Seriously, there's an art to it. Repeating the same weak attack doesn't make it less weak, it just makes you look more troll-ish.Yes, obviously I am a troll for pointing out how silly it is to want to penalize your players for knowing which way north is. Maybe they should just spend the 1 gp on a compass and not have to deal with DMs unable to accept that simple spells are simple spells.
Whatev. Go troll someone else, grasshopper, I'm significantly better at it than you and am funny while doing it. Come back when you learn to bait a hook with something worth biting.
Nope. Taking something out of context to set up a gamist attack makes someone a troll.
Failing to understand what was happening and commenting on it makes someone oblivious. Parroting the same incorrect summation of what was said demonstrates poor reading comprehension.
Let me know if you want to play too. I've got ego and assholism to spare. You seem to have a predisposition for politics threads, and likely an axe you've brought from their to grind in my direction.
In any event, I remain unimpressed.
troll
Hmmmm?
Failing to understand what was happening and commenting on it makes someone oblivious. Parroting the same incorrect summation of what was said demonstrates poor reading comprehension.
It was the only summation of the facts given. You seem to have forgotten that you left out the important details of how your players were trying to argue the rules worked until much later. Which just made you look even more like a jerk DM because you were trying to nerf utterly simple cantrips instead of bothering to point out the defined rules to your players
EDIT: But I forget, you are running "Bumbling pig farmers get lost and starve in the woods" instead of a fantasy campaign.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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It was the only summation of the facts given. You seem to have forgotten that you left out the important details of how your players were trying to argue the rules worked until much later. Which just made you look even more like a jerk DM because you were trying to nerf utterly simple cantrips instead of bothering to point out the defined rules to your players
Failing to understand what was happening and commenting on it makes someone oblivious. Parroting the same incorrect summation of what was said demonstrates poor reading comprehension.
You're persistant, I'll give you that. Still pretty weak, but persistant.
Look, I'd love to keep wiping the floor with you, but I've got evening plans and I promised the mods I'd quit feeding you. You failed in your troll attempts, you keep failing, and at this point I feel sorry for you. Go find an edition war thread and see if someone there will fall for this.
You
Y-you
Are
You
Y-you are!!!
Lindsey Lohan?
She would be smurfy if she had blue freckles.
I have many faces, but I'm all the same guy.
You know, just like in the book.
You guys have read Michael Moorluck, right?
Instead of ink, he used awesome sauce for optimal effect.
I think it's low blood-sugar. Let's all go eat something.
How bout Smurfberry crunch...
The question I have, is just how many trolls there actually were here?
a google smurf?
I think someone took out some of our little tricks.
Gargameld!!!! That's smurfed the f@%~ up, man!!!
or if she was naked and crab walking.Lindsey Lohan?She would be smurfy if she had blue freckles.
Thank Papa Smurf for photoshop.
(lol he's all jumping too....)
Successful Troll would like to congratulate all fellow trolls for outstanding success.
I've banned compasses in my game - asking for one lets me know immidiately that you're one of those filthy power gamers.
Whenever my players try to walk anywhere at all I roll a percentage die and consult a chart I made to see just how far off course they're going for no explicable reason.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, oh my god you are such a terrible DM and the biggest g~~*++n whiner I've seen here ever.
PS: The others weren't trolls, they were trying to show you the error of your ways in a logical fashion. You're just bad at life. Now me? I called myself a troll in the middle of hosting a panel at a convention. I'm the one you've gotta watch out for.
Man, I was totally not meaning to start another Power Attack debate! I thought we could just all share horror stories about their friends complaining about cheese being invalidated by the new rules D:The cheese will be back eventually, as more books are printed and the caster/non-caster power gap widens. That's how splatbooks work. Wizards, Clerics, and Druids get exponentially more power potential for every spell printed that they have access to, as they can add these to their arsenal at will. On the other hand, Feats for melee-types only add power potential in a linear manner, because they have to drop previously planned Feats from their builds in order to add them.
The reason for the Shock Trooper/Leap Attack cheddar in 3.5 was that it was one way to make an effective damage dealer who could almost touch the hem of the pristine robes of CoDzilla. Eventually Pathfinder will reach the same point and you will see some truly ridiculous Feat choices/combinations available to non-casters. And that is best-case scenario...if they don't put those gap closers into the game eventually, then game play past level 8 or 9 becomes even more unbalanced.
Shush man, don't take all the books in then. DM can always say NO. If a player comes with this new spell to add in his/her list, I simply ask where did he find it, as the non-core spells are not common knowledge and make him/her quest for it, if they really want it that bad.
Limiting power attack choice works well, it speeds up gameplay and keeps players from figuring out the exact AC to hit for the best damage type calculations. That is one of the things I hated about 3.5 power attack, it speeds up gameplay a bit, and for a feat that is used almost every round that is a good thing.
Request: Please, please don't do this over the weekend.
Bigger Request: Please don't do this ever.
Limiting power attack choice works well, it speeds up gameplay and keeps players from figuring out the exact AC to hit for the best damage type calculations. That is one of the things I hated about 3.5 power attack, it speeds up gameplay a bit, and for a feat that is used almost every round that is a good thing.
Math for effectiveness! Run away! Run away!
Math for effectiveness! Run away! Run away!Limiting power attack choice works well, it speeds up gameplay and keeps players from figuring out the exact AC to hit for the best damage type calculations. That is one of the things I hated about 3.5 power attack, it speeds up gameplay a bit, and for a feat that is used almost every round that is a good thing.
Each to it's own, for me the game is more fun if it isn't turned into a mathematical excersize. Speeding up gameplay is a good thing, alot of small things like these quickly add up to bog down an encounter that would otherwise be exciting and fun.
Compass
Source Adventurer's Armory 12
An ordinary compass that points to the magnetic north pole grants its user a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks made to navigate in the wilderness. It also can be used to grant the same bonus on Knowledge (dungeoneering) checks made to navigate underground.
Know Direction
Your knowledge of north is correct at the moment of casting, but you can get lost again within moments if you don't find some external reference point to help you keep track of direction.
Survival DC 15
Keep from getting lost or avoid natural hazards, such as quicksand.
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I don't really see the problem here. Know direction or not, as long as you have a druid or a ranger or someone with some ranks in survival it becomes trivial not to get lost.
Kingmaker basically encourages you to hand out a map to your players for easier navigation. Getting lost is not really considered a vital part of the game.
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Compass
Source Adventurer's Armory 12
An ordinary compass that points to the magnetic north pole grants its user a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks made to navigate in the wilderness. It also can be used to grant the same bonus on Knowledge (dungeoneering) checks made to navigate underground.Know Direction
Your knowledge of north is correct at the moment of casting, but you can get lost again within moments if you don't find some external reference point to help you keep track of direction.Survival DC 15
Keep from getting lost or avoid natural hazards, such as quicksand.
_____
I don't really see the problem here. Know direction or not, as long as you have a druid or a ranger or someone with some ranks in survival it becomes trivial not to get lost.
Kingmaker basically encourages you to hand out a map to your players for easier navigation. Getting lost is not really considered a vital part of the game.
One of the major plot points in literature is Man vs Nature, now this can be anything from crossing a stream or climbing a mountain. The players who choose to take a precaution against getting lost should be rewarded with their foresight and those who do not should fear the limitless dangers of the untamed wilderness.
also SMURF!!!!!!!!!!!
Shush man, don't take all the books in then. DM can always say NO. If a player comes with this new spell to add in his/her list, I simply ask where did he find it, as the non-core spells are not common knowledge and make him/her quest for it, if they really want it that bad.Man, I was totally not meaning to start another Power Attack debate! I thought we could just all share horror stories about their friends complaining about cheese being invalidated by the new rules D:The cheese will be back eventually, as more books are printed and the caster/non-caster power gap widens. That's how splatbooks work. Wizards, Clerics, and Druids get exponentially more power potential for every spell printed that they have access to, as they can add these to their arsenal at will. On the other hand, Feats for melee-types only add power potential in a linear manner, because they have to drop previously planned Feats from their builds in order to add them.
The reason for the Shock Trooper/Leap Attack cheddar in 3.5 was that it was one way to make an effective damage dealer who could almost touch the hem of the pristine robes of CoDzilla. Eventually Pathfinder will reach the same point and you will see some truly ridiculous Feat choices/combinations available to non-casters. And that is best-case scenario...if they don't put those gap closers into the game eventually, then game play past level 8 or 9 becomes even more unbalanced.
That same mentality could have been applied to every instance of "feat combinations for power attack cheese" that the OP was bringing up. I was just pointing out that we are likely to see such a scaling issue in the future.
Compass
Source Adventurer's Armory 12
An ordinary compass that points to the magnetic north pole grants its user a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks made to navigate in the wilderness. It also can be used to grant the same bonus on Knowledge (dungeoneering) checks made to navigate underground.Know Direction
Your knowledge of north is correct at the moment of casting, but you can get lost again within moments if you don't find some external reference point to help you keep track of direction.Survival DC 15
Keep from getting lost or avoid natural hazards, such as quicksand.
_____
I don't really see the problem here. Know direction or not, as long as you have a druid or a ranger or someone with some ranks in survival it becomes trivial not to get lost.
Kingmaker basically encourages you to hand out a map to your players for easier navigation. Getting lost is not really considered a vital part of the game.
Trained in Survival: You can always determine north in relation to yourself.
Something you didn't mention though Moro, was that in a core 3.5 game, the Fighter classes were practically worthless compared to the rest of the classes pretty much out of the gate. By 5th level you might as well throw your sheet away and roll up a caster. Rogues had it a little better, but there was still a point where, in a core game, a Rogue wouldn't be worth s!&@ either. Casters RULED 3.5 core.This problem has been somewhat mitigated in PF, to the point I doubt that Paizo will feel a need to close the gap that remains (though some of us GMs have our own remedies)
Oh yes, Pathfinder has done an excellent job of narrowing the gap, particularly at the early levels. You can still see a good bit of breakdown above the 10-12 level range, though. None of that changes the way every book printed can impact the balance of the game as a whole.
Trained in Survival: You can always determine north in relation to yourself.
I think the idea is that knowing where north is and being lost aren't mutually exclusive. While it is completely trivial to know where north is, it is just a tiny bit less trivial to avoid being lost.
A bad survival check could still lead to wasted time traveling. In some cases it is more a terrain issue than a direction issue that will let players feel lost.
I don't understand the problem with unlimited cantrips which lead to the Know Direction discussion. It isn't like lvl0 spells in 3.5 were a limitation in any way. You're as likely to die from thirst in pathfinder as in 3.5 in a standard party.
The only time I've seen interesting ideas regarding the management of food and water that would be rather impossible in Pathfinder is a zombie apocalypse scenario where the PCs ended up being in charge of a bunch of residents stuck with them in a building. Even then, considering the amount of food/drink purified or the amount of water created per spell... you got to have a lot of people to feed to be overwhelmed.
I've banned compasses in my game - asking for one lets me know immidiately that you're one of those filthy power gamers.
Whenever my players try to walk anywhere at all I roll a percentage die and consult a chart I made to see just how far off course they're going for no explicable reason.
"Okay, I'm going to charge the orc."
GM: ... percentile... traces out a curving line... places the mini far beyond the orc and to the south, rolls opportunity attacks..."What are you doing?!"
GM: "I consulted my table. You should have taken into account the slow curvature of the planet before charging. You take 11 damage. Who's next?"
@Cardigan
OK so new PA takes away your option to nut yourself. Nonetheless, against appropriate CR creatures, power attacking in PF is 95% better for doing damage, which is its purpose. Yeah ok you could power attack for 20...but you would only hit on a 20. PF PA plays better with iterative attacks, which in 3.0 was supposed to be how damage scaled for warriors.
Successful Troll would like to congratulate all fellow trolls for outstanding success.
There were no successful trolls here. I've got the maths to prove it.
Trained in Survival: You can always determine north in relation to yourself.I think the idea is that knowing where north is and being lost aren't mutually exclusive. While it is completely trivial to know where north is, it is just a tiny bit less trivial to avoid being lost.
...
That's the point actually. They are still crying foul when the players have an access to compasses or unlimited cantrips that can determine where the north is. Just finding the north is useless without landmarks for orientation. Yeah, walking in the desert is problematic without knowing it of course, but if the destination is, say, one day of travel away, then just a few degrees and you'll miss it anyway. There is no point in denying the PCs the North detection devices, because at best it gives them +2 bonus for the survival check to get where they need.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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That's the point actually. They are still crying foul when the players have an access to compasses or unlimited cantrips that can determine where the north is. Just finding the north is useless without landmarks for orientation. Yeah, walking in the desert is problematic without knowing it of course, but if the destination is, say, one day of travel away, then just a few degrees and you'll miss it anyway. There is no point in denying the PCs the North detection devices, because at best it gives them +2 bonus for the survival check to get where they need.
No one is making the claim that the players having access to a compass is a problem. In fact, I'm not even claiming that running a game where it's impossible to get lost is a problem. I was discussing how infinite cantrips have caused issue in my game, and, to be fair, wasn't as precise initially in describing the nature of the issue. That got strawmanned by the "if you don't play D&D as epic combat with incidental details swept aside, you're doing it wrong" crowd (particularly those who are well known here at Paizo for regularly trolling edition war threads and making such arguments), and hence additional a%$*%~@ry got heaped on top.
So, if we step back from the straman argument that no one is making, here's what the problem has been in my game. I've been using the getting lost rules. There are different DCs for the checks in the Survival skill (which is not terrain dependent) and in the description of the various wilderness types (which is terrain dependent). It ranges from 10-18 (I think). This is not entirely trivial for low level characters - I've had a ranger with ranks in Survival get the party lost more than once. We didn't have the adventurer's armory when we started the campaign, so they don't have a compass.
The trouble with Know Direction is that it's not clear what it does. The spell doesn't say anything like "grants a +X bonus to Survival checks because you know where north is." It says you know north, but you can get lost again in moments. Which, seems to imply, that casting it means you are automatically not lost. The fact that you may become lost moments later is irrelevant if you can cast Know Direction infinitely. Again, I don't think this is the only way to read the spell, or even the correct way, but it's an argument that's been tossed around at my table. Given that I want to use the getting lost rules (because my campaign is not about getting from point A to point B, where getting lost is just a frustrating event), I'm not happy that Know Direction seems to circumvent getting lost entirely.
This tied into the other at-will cantrips that threaten a simulationist game, such as Create Water, which is how we got on this topic in the first place.
To recap: I don't think Know Direction is broken, I don't think it makes someone automatically unlost, but I also am not sure what effect it is supposed to have. I understand that most people playing D&D want to get from the town to the adventure location without screwing around with the getting lost rules, and that's entirely reasonable. Similarly, most people don't want to waste the time and effort tracking food and water, and again, I think that's entirely reasonable. Create Water serves an important in-game function by letting you hand waive away that component. The same is true for Know Direction and getting lost. But, if you're running a game that wants to include these hazards (as trivial as they may seem), these spells are disruptive.
Hopefully, that provides sufficient explanation to the issue for those who are actually interested in engaging in a conversation and not just griefing on other peoples' playstyles. I'll probably start a new thread at some point about getting lost, tracking water, etc., because I there are a number of interesting questions about the topic, including whether the effort of tracking such items is worth the payoff (or, how to make such tracking interesting enough to justify doing it), whether the mechanics work as written if you use them at the table, and if there is a better way of handling the task than the RAW.
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That's the point actually. They are still crying foul when the players have an access to compasses or unlimited cantrips that can determine where the north is. Just finding the north is useless without landmarks for orientation. Yeah, walking in the desert is problematic without knowing it of course, but if the destination is, say, one day of travel away, then just a few degrees and you'll miss it anyway. There is no point in denying the PCs the North detection devices, because at best it gives them +2 bonus for the survival check to get where they need.No one is making the claim that the players having access to a compass is a problem. In fact, I'm not even claiming that running a game where it's impossible to get lost is a problem. I was discussing how infinite cantrips have caused issue in my game, and, to be fair, wasn't as precise initially in describing the nature of the issue. That got strawmanned by the "if you don't play D&D as epic combat with incidental details swept aside, you're doing it wrong" crowd (particularly those who are well known here at Paizo for regularly trolling edition war threads and making such arguments), and hence additional a@%%%!@ry got heaped on top.
So, if we step back from the straman argument that no one is making, here's what the problem has been in my game. I've been using the getting lost rules. There are different DCs for the checks in the Survival skill (which is not terrain dependent) and in the description of the various wilderness types (which is terrain dependent). It ranges from 10-18 (I think). This is not entirely trivial for low level characters - I've had a ranger with ranks in Survival get the party lost more than once. We didn't have the adventurer's armory when we started the campaign, so they don't have a compass.
The trouble with Know Direction is that it's not clear what it does. The spell doesn't say anything like "grants a +X bonus to Survival checks because you know where north is." It says you know north,...
ur doin it wong...
All Pathfinder games should be either
1)a fighter of "x" level vs. a creature of challenge rating equal to "x"
or
2)a wizard of "x" level vs. a creature of challenge rating equal to "x".
all of which occurs in a white void independent of anything but the combat at hand.
See, since no actuaries were nice enough to quit their high paying jobs at insurance companies to come and make game rules that statistically balance all classes perfectly in all situations, we really need to finish this wizards vs. fighters thing through some form of a war of attrition. It's been raging too long. The endgame is nighe.
When you cast this spell, you instantly know the direction of north from your current position. The spell is effective in any environment in which “north” exists, but it may not work in extraplanar settings. Your knowledge of north is correct at the moment of casting, but you can get lost again within moments if you don't find some external reference point to help you keep track of direction.
I think it's pretty clear that the getting lost sentence relates to the knowledge of direction. That is all. I'd give the party the +2 bonus for favourable circumstances. No rule says that exactly, it's the usual +2/-2 DM tool.
EDIT: I wouldn't certainly give the PCs full +4 bonus for proper navigation tools unless they also have something else for reference. The remainder of the Getting Lost rules works fine with that IMO.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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ur doin it wong...
All Pathfinder games should be either
1)a fighter of "x" level vs. a creature of challenge rating equal to "x"
or
2)a wizard of "x" level vs. a creature of challenge rating equal to "x".
all of which occurs in a white void independent of anything but the combat at hand.
See, since no actuaries were nice enough to quit their high paying jobs at insurance companies to come and make game rules that statistically balance all classes perfectly in all situations, we really need to finish this wizards vs. fighters thing through some form of a war of attrition. It's been raging too long. The endgame is nighe.
The thing that always confuses me is people who play the game with other people. How does that work? If you have other people at the table, they might not make the optimal decision in every situation or build their characters the wrong way. If you roll dice at a table with other people, you're doing it wrong. D&D is a series of logical and absolute axioms, which can be derived and solved. It's not really a game if you can't win.