How do you define 'iconic' LazarX? To me, iconic is anything that evokes a powerful image in the mind, and to me, a Paladin of a diety of the hunt (Ehlonna for example, to take one from older editions) is iconically a bow Paladin, delivering the power of his goddess through his bow to the evil fiend he is smiting, as she herself would do in his place.Ehlonna is not an iconic diety for Paladins. She's not that concerned with Good. When you think of Paladins you think of more martial dieties like Hieroneous... Bahamut, Illir. Those are dieties that sponsor Paladins. And even Correllon is noted for the sword that never misses.
Arrow fighting is for the wimp Ranger. :)
Maybe for you :)
I can easily see ranged paladins. If you can't, I'm not sure the problem is with me.
Hell, the Silver Flame in Eberron has longbow as favored weapon. When you're fighting/wiping out lycanthropes, the goal is to ensure nobody gets infected. That means you shoot them at range.
In Golarion, youve got Erastil. Lawful good, longbow weapon? Absolutely.
Paladins being melee only was a misconception due to the perverse influence Forgotten Realms had on 2e.
Paladin gonna get a nerf? And now that I finally thought them worth being played too.
Kinda funny how people have no problems with fighters (built right) doing pretty much the same damage against everything, except they are slightly more dependent on having good loot to bypass DR (until he gets to lv12 and get the fighter only Penetrating Strike tree to bypass DR all the time). Also, the fighter gets pretty much the same AC bonus as the smite through armor training, don't need a fourth stat and become much much more versatile. Lets take a min/maxed human with the 15 point buy:
Fighter 5 with Str18, Dex14, Con12, Int13, Wis8, Cha8 Weapon Focus/Specialization and +1 greatsword: +12 (2d6+10). Fullplate Armor+1 AC23
Paladin 5 with Str14, Dex12, Con12, Int8, Wis8, Cha18 Weapon Focus, smiting with +1 greatsword: +13 (2d6+9, +14 vs undead, dragons and fiends). Fullplate Armor+1 AC24
So, paladin has one more in AC, which doesn't stack with rings of protection or spells that give deflection bonuses. But the fighter has stats to take dodge, combat expertise and so on. Paladin CAN lower Cha to get better core physical stats, but then his other abilities that set him apart take a hit.
Only thing the paladin really has going for him is a superior saves. Unless you ban 3.5 material, a fighter can get the paladin's immunity to fear with the Fearless feat. And unlike the paladin, he has feats to spare.
I love the fluff and feel of the paladin, but he has always been the underdog, despite having the absolutely strictest code of conduct and multiple stat dependency.
For those of you who missed it, the nerf is in the 3rd errata, and boils down to smite damage bonus vs. Team Evil (Undead, Outsiders, Dragons) being doubled only on the first attack.
Ok, that I can live with. Was worried I would have to discard my paladin for Legacy of Fire in favor of a fighter in order to function as a damage dealer. Luckily, that Adventure Path seems to be ripe with evil ^^
Could you post a link to the errata? I can't seem to find it.
Edit: Nevermind, I was doing it wrong >_>
Well I am quite ok with this slight nerf, I just wish the aura of smiting would be replaced though, isn't the paladin meant to shine in abattle against evil, why share the shine with the fighter that can prolly outdamage the paladin by far. I hope the APG offers some alternative class features.
For those of you who missed it, the nerf is in the 3rd errata, and boils down to smite damage bonus vs. Team Evil (Undead, Outsiders, Dragons) being doubled only on the first attack.
Not much of a nerf, but a good call.
I still have a problem with the" bypass ALL DR".
That Errata change is actually pretty good...
Using AOJ does the party's first hit deal double?
yes
I think I'll ignore that errata for now. Maybe I'll "find" it if the Smite Evil of the Paladin in my group turns out to be overpowering later on. :p
BTW, a link would still be highly appreciated.
The link for the Errata Donwload page is here. The errata on the Smite Evil is on both the Core Rulebook errata files.
I think it is a pretty good errata, the former power tended to skew the encounter too much to an easy victory on some of the classical BBEG's.
I'll keep an open mind and playtest it, though I really want to get rid of the aura of smiting more than anything else, I do not like it for either flavor or effect.
HAY RANDOM DUDE THAT YELLED AT ME AT OUR PANEL! :D :D :D
I really hope you enjoyed it :)
OH, also, I don't mind this errata. Paladins are still pretty awesome, they just won't win at D&D against Evil enemies.
No, please don't fix the "problem". The Paladin Smite is quite fine at the moment, as many have noted before. If anything could need toning down, it's Aura of Justice, not Smite per se.We are aware of some imbalance issues with this class ability. They are being reviewed.
Stay tuned.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I agree with this. Smite is fine. Aura of Justice should be changed to only effect one party member that the paladin has to touch using 2 uses of his smite ability and only works against a target that the paladin is currently "smiting".
I never liked Aura of Justice to begin with. I dont like the whole concept of it and it is way to powerful. The above change makes it interesting but not broken.
Maybe it could be modified to persist even if the paladin is unconcious or dead. (With his dying breath the paladin grasps the fighter's hand and says finish what I could not! Bestowing on him for a short time the gift of his God.)
Has anyone played with Aura of Justice yet. That is the only thing that ever really got my attention. I have yet to see it in play.
Has anyone played with Aura of Justice yet. That is the only thing that ever really got my attention. I have yet to see it in play.
Yeah. Not that big of a deal-- the paladin used it once and then the cleric used banishment to remove half of the enemies from the board, subsequently removing the paladin's smite target... the sorceror used disintegrate to blow away the last remaining vrock. Without smite, it had already died. Smite just knocked it down to something like -42 instead of -12.
Then its body fell into a whirlpool.
Later on, the paladin used it again when facing down the xacabra (giant snake monster from 2D) and then the cleric used dispel evil on it and removed it from the board.
In a world where everyone who ever fights is always standing five feet from eachother and full round attacking, I'm sure Aura of Justice is a lot more powerful. Of course, that's the only world that people ever think of when they argue about it on an internet forum. In my own games, even the paladin was glad that the cleric blew the monsters away-- he'd rather have her save-or-lose them than have to expend more resources than necessary fighting them, anyways.
Though, he'd probably rather bless-weapon critical smite them and one shot them, but that's a completely different can of worms that I'm glad nobody has really opened yet.
Has anyone played with Aura of Justice yet. That is the only thing that ever really got my attention. I have yet to see it in play.Yeah. Not that big of a deal-- the paladin used it once and then the cleric used banishment to remove half of the enemies from the board, subsequently removing the paladin's smite target... the sorceror used disintegrate to blow away the last remaining vrock. Without smite, it had already died. Smite just knocked it down to something like -42 instead of -12.
Then its body fell into a whirlpool.
Later on, the paladin used it again when facing down the xacabra (giant snake monster from 2D) and then the cleric used dispel evil on it and removed it from the board.
In a world where everyone who ever fights is always standing five feet from eachother and full round attacking, I'm sure Aura of Justice is a lot more powerful. Of course, that's the only world that people ever think of when they argue about it on an internet forum. In my own games, even the paladin was glad that the cleric blew the monsters away-- he'd rather have her save-or-lose them than have to expend more resources than necessary fighting them, anyways.
Though, he'd probably rather bless-weapon critical smite them and one shot them, but that's a completely different can of worms that I'm glad nobody has really opened yet.
I will keep playing with the paladin under the old rules until it proves to be an issue then, thanks.
Has anyone played with Aura of Justice yet. That is the only thing that ever really got my attention. I have yet to see it in play.Yeah. Not that big of a deal-- the paladin used it once and then the cleric used banishment to remove half of the enemies from the board, subsequently removing the paladin's smite target... the sorceror used disintegrate to blow away the last remaining vrock. Without smite, it had already died. Smite just knocked it down to something like -42 instead of -12.
Then its body fell into a whirlpool.
Later on, the paladin used it again when facing down the xacabra (giant snake monster from 2D) and then the cleric used dispel evil on it and removed it from the board.
In a world where everyone who ever fights is always standing five feet from eachother and full round attacking, I'm sure Aura of Justice is a lot more powerful. Of course, that's the only world that people ever think of when they argue about it on an internet forum. In my own games, even the paladin was glad that the cleric blew the monsters away-- he'd rather have her save-or-lose them than have to expend more resources than necessary fighting them, anyways.
Though, he'd probably rather bless-weapon critical smite them and one shot them, but that's a completely different can of worms that I'm glad nobody has really opened yet.
It seems that your party doesn't have as many archers as mine does. My party is knocking on Aura of Justice's door with their 9th-level characters. They can get 11 (more with Haste) arrows out per round with a Full Attack at range. I've been challenging them quite a bit recently with Rise of the Runelords, but everything is Evil. Aura of Justice to make all those arrows bypass DR and also do 11 or 22 more damage (not to mention +6 to hit)? The fight will be over in round 1 for a party win (I've run a simulated playtest fight, and this is what I'm seeing from Aura of Justice), whereas currently their last major fights have taken at least 25 rounds each and have been the party barely scraping a victory from the jaws of defeat.
Let's consider--despite popular disparagement of the Bard class, those who have run the numbers agree that the Bard's Inspire Courage is actually a huge party boost that raises expected damage in a group of size 5 or 6 more even than adding a raging Barbarian to the fray. The Aura of Justice ability will add more to hit than Inspire Courage and much much more to damage. And it stacks (one of those archers in my group is also a Bard). Granted, if there are more than six or seven significant enemies, each significantly stronger in CR than one PC (like say seven APL+2 creatures), Aura of Justice may not be enough for a group of four to five to win that fight, but if that's the encounter the GM is throwing at a party, they also can't possibly win without Aura of Justice, and the fact that they have a non-negligible chance to win it with AoJ is kind of crazy.
Again, this assumes an archery heavy party. If the party has fewer than two archers, it will be less extreme than this but still incredibly powerful.
It seems that your party doesn't have as many archers as mine does. My party is knocking on Aura of Justice's door with their 9th-level characters. They can get 11 (more with Haste) arrows out per round with a Full Attack at range. I've been challenging them quite a bit recently with Rise of the Runelords, but everything is Evil. Aura of Justice to make all those arrows bypass DR and also do 11 or 22 more damage (not to mention +6 to hit)? The fight will be over in round 1 for a party win (I've run a simulated playtest fight, and this is what I'm seeing from Aura of Justice), whereas currently their last major fights have taken at least 25 rounds each and have been the party barely scraping a victory from the jaws of defeat.Let's consider--despite popular disparagement of the Bard class, those who have run the numbers agree that the Bard's Inspire Courage is actually a huge party boost that raises expected damage in a group of size 5 or 6 more even than adding a raging Barbarian to the fray. The Aura of Justice ability will add more to hit than Inspire Courage and much much more to damage. And it stacks (one of those archers in my group is also a Bard). Granted, if there are more than six or seven significant enemies, each significantly stronger in CR than one PC (like say seven APL+2 creatures), Aura of Justice may not be enough for a group of four to five to win that fight, but if that's the encounter the GM is throwing at a party, they also can't possibly win without Aura of Justice, and the fact that they have a non-negligible chance to win it with AoJ is kind of crazy.
Again, this assumes an archery heavy party. If the party has fewer than two archers, it will be less extreme than this but still incredibly powerful.
I feel like it has enough drawbacks to be worthwhile but also a real gambit if the DM is savvy enough with his badguys to keep up. My thoughts, randomly assembled:
1) Your paladin has a +6 charisma modifier at level 9. Holy crap. What's their strength score?
1b) My paladin in the example above had a +5 at level 16, with two +2 inherent bonuses to stats, one of which was charisma. That charisma mod on a character where charisma is a second or third stat is crazy.
2) At 11, the paladin has to use two of their four smites per day to fire off this ability, and then has to use one of their own smites to smite for themselves. Remember that the paladin is not an ally of themselves-- the paladin is the paladin and their allies are their allies. It's why most things, like, for instance, bardic performance (since you brought up bards) call out "The bard may inspire courage in his allies (including himself)" or "The bard my inspire greatness in himself or one ally." There's no such reference in AoJ-- meaning he doesn't hit himself with Aura of Justice when he uses it.
2b) If the paladin is using 3 out of 4 of their smites on one fight, isn't that just as bad as, say, an oracle or sorceror or bard buff novaing just before a boss battle, or a wizard chain-casting all of his level 6 spells in one fight?
3)If they're busting out Aura of Justice, it gives it to all of their friends within a 10 foot radius of them-- the paladin can't just wave the magic stick once he detects evil and then have the archer line pop up 120 ft. away to open fire. The paladin's going to have to use Aura of Justice as his first action in the combat if he's melee-- if he's ranged, yeah, there's a little issue there, but he's also not going to give it to the melee unless he runs up to do it.
3b)Since I imagine now that you're moving on from level 9, you're moving into book #3 and #4, so the areas you're entering are becoming less and less cramped and more and more open-- more space to cover, monsters with bigger reach, etc. In a lot of fights, the paladin's going to have to make the jump right as combat starts-- are these people evil? Which ones are evil? Which one should I use my move action detect evil on to make sure they're evil? What if I detect evil on one of them and it turns out they're all neutral?
4) I understand the party winning a really hard fight easily might be an issue, and as a DM, believe me, me and Anticlimax have become best friends. If you're so worried about it, just ask the paladin to be careful to not take the gusto out of your game. Remind him it's your job to do all of the work to give them a good time, and you're supposed to have fun, too, and part of the fun is running the bad guys and getting to be the villain. If he feels like he needs to use AoJ, he can use it, but using it every time the bushes rustle or a bad guy gives a monologue is just bad form-- just like saying "I open fire" when the villain has just stood up to talk, it's just facepalm worthy. I give this talk to my players sometimes if they come across something I think is really powerful-- they know it's annoying for me if they cheese my encounters. I don't care if they just roll it over because I suck, or they're doing really well, but to coup de grace an interesting and unique boss encounter after a round-one lucky sleep is something I just generally frown upon. (Round six? I don't mind anymore-- most monsters shouldn't live past round five!) It might be the same for you. Talk to them.
Another good trick, now that I think of it, is to have later lamias get someone to cast atonement on them to change their alignment to neutral and then use misdirection in conjunction with other creatures to have themselves ping as evil. But that's just frickin' ridiculous.
Anyway. Jason's fix is smart, simple and to the point. Nice work Jason :-)
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This is all assuming they all fail the pathetic DC 14 save against it... but this is all completely off topic anyways.
DC 14?!? As a wizard?!? So you only allow a 5 point buy or something? That means your wizard has either a 14 base stat + 2 for racial or a 16 base stat in int. And no spell focus. Spell focus enchantment isn't a bad thing for a straight wizard (unless your barred enchantment anyways...in which case why are you casting sleep?!? :P ).
stuff
a) a paladin will dump is wisdom
b) once she hit level 2 you can't kill them. Divine grace + lay on hands. And at later levels it get worse.
I feel like it has enough drawbacks to be worthwhile but also a real gambit if the DM is savvy enough with his badguys to keep up. My thoughts, randomly assembled:1) Your paladin has a +6 charisma modifier at level 9. Holy crap. What's their strength score?
1b) My paladin in the example above had a +5 at level 16, with two +2 inherent bonuses to stats, one of which was charisma. That charisma mod on a character where charisma is a second or third stat is crazy.2) At 11, the paladin has to use two of their four smites per day to fire off this ability, and then has to use one of their own smites to smite for themselves. Remember that the paladin is not an ally of themselves-- the paladin is the paladin and their allies are their allies. It's why most things, like, for instance, bardic performance (since you brought up bards) call out "The bard may inspire courage in his allies (including himself)" or "The bard my inspire greatness in himself or one ally." There's no such reference in AoJ-- meaning he doesn't hit himself with Aura of Justice when he uses it.
2b) If the paladin is using 3 out of 4 of their smites on one fight, isn't that just as bad as, say, an oracle or sorceror or bard buff novaing just before a boss battle, or a wizard chain-casting all of his level 6 spells in one fight?3)If they're busting out Aura of Justice, it gives it to all of their friends within a 10 foot radius of them-- the paladin can't just wave the magic stick once he detects evil and then have the archer line pop up 120 ft. away to open fire. The paladin's going to have to use Aura of Justice as his first action in the combat if he's melee-- if he's ranged, yeah, there's a little issue there, but he's also not going to give it to the melee unless he runs up to do it.
3b)Since I imagine now that you're moving on from level 9, you're moving into book #3 and #4, so the areas you're entering are becoming less and less cramped and more and more open-- more space to cover, monsters with bigger reach, etc. In a lot of fights, the paladin's going to have to make the jump right as combat starts-- are these people evil? Which ones are evil? Which one should I use my move action detect evil on to make sure they're evil? What if I detect evil on one of them and it turns out they're all neutral?4) I understand the party winning a really hard fight easily might be an issue, and as a DM, believe me, me and Anticlimax have become best friends. If you're so worried about it, just ask the paladin to be careful to not take the gusto out of your game. Remind him it's your job to do all of the work to give them a good time, and you're supposed to have fun, too, and part of the fun is running the bad guys and getting to be the villain. If he feels like he needs to use AoJ, he can use it, but using it every time the bushes rustle or a bad guy gives a monologue is just bad form-- just like saying "I open fire" when the villain has just stood up to talk, it's just facepalm worthy. I give this talk to my players sometimes if they come across something I think is really powerful-- they know it's annoying for me if they cheese my encounters. I don't care if they just roll it over because I suck, or they're doing really well, but to coup de grace an interesting and unique boss encounter after a round-one lucky sleep is something I just generally frown upon. (Round six? I don't mind anymore-- most monsters shouldn't live past round five!) It might be the same for you. Talk to them.
Paladins cast spells off Charisma, get a bonus to saves off Charisma, add Charisma to hit and damage while smiting, and get extra Lay on Hands from Charisma. My group definitely does not see it as tertiary for Paladins, although admittedly, forcing them to choose a low Charisma would certainly mitigate the effects of the Paladin abilities. The melee Paladin likes Strength and Charisma, and has left the rest of his stats out to dry (mainly his Wisdom, which is a penalty, though his Int I think is also 10). For archer Paladins, Halfling is a very popular choice due to the Dex and Cha boost. I think both of them have Cha as their highest stat, although the archer's Dex and the melee's Strength are just barely behind.
But you're right, in this case, the Paladin does not have a 22 Charisma at level 9, though, he has a 21 I think or maybe 20. I assume that by level 11 they will get a +4 Charisma item instead of a +2, though, so I'm assuming it will be 22 by level 11, so I used +6 in my simulations.
As to needing to get close to Detect Evil, a lot of things are just obviously evil, particularly in Rise of the Runelords but generically in many other adventures as well. I would consider the Atonement trick you mention to not be legitimate, or at least, I would not let a player use it with their character if they asked me to.
Paladin player here, I'm fine with the change. It was about to get silly as my # of attacks increased.
Allip. Wis damage touch attack.stuffa) a paladin will dump is wisdom
b) once she hit level 2 you can't kill them. Divine grace + lay on hands. And at later levels it get worse.
?
Allip. Wis damage touch attack.stuffa) a paladin will dump is wisdom
b) once she hit level 2 you can't kill them. Divine grace + lay on hands. And at later levels it get worse.?
He's saying that you can kill the Paladin with dumped Wisdom by doing a touch attack that gets rid of Wisdom. I find Allips will still miss the Paladin's touch AC though, but lamia matriarchs, who have an ungodly bonus to a touch attack with 2d4 Wisdom drain, have been pretty much the only thing that will KO my Paladins. Fortunately, they keep fighting the same one when she escapes.
Allip's touch deals wisdom damage. Enough of them and the Paladin can't move and dies.Allip. Wis damage touch attack.stuffa) a paladin will dump is wisdom
b) once she hit level 2 you can't kill them. Divine grace + lay on hands. And at later levels it get worse.?
yes right and that happens all the time.
There are probably creature that deals charisma damage. I still dump char if I was a fighter or a barbarian.
stuffa) a paladin will dump is wisdom
b) once she hit level 2 you can't kill them. Divine grace + lay on hands. And at later levels it get worse.
When I said fourth stat I meant that a fighter can focus on his purely physical ones, and the paladin needs to focus on Cha before any of them, but still needs good physical stats to survive/function. Sure, the paladin have no business raising his dex over 13 to get the most out of his plate and qualify for combat feats, but still.
I am, of course, less a fan of this nerf:
"In the Weapons section, change the third sentence of the
third paragraph to read as follows.
A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus
(enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus
equivalents, including those from character abilities
and spells) higher than +10."Which, at high levels, makes the Paladin's weapon-bond ability a giant waste. Thoughts?
-Cross
They had made this ruling a while ago, and are just now clarifying it in the errata. I think it is still an awesome ability, and like this ruling because it prevents things from getting too rediculous.
They had made this ruling a while ago, and are just now clarifying it in the errata. I think it is still an awesome ability, and like this ruling because it prevents things from getting too rediculous.I am, of course, less a fan of this nerf:
"In the Weapons section, change the third sentence of the
third paragraph to read as follows.
A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus
(enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus
equivalents, including those from character abilities
and spells) higher than +10."Which, at high levels, makes the Paladin's weapon-bond ability a giant waste. Thoughts?
-Cross
I think the ruling isn`t quite up to snuff because it doesn`t say HOW you resolve the situation where class ability + item stats are greater than +10 (i.e. do class abilities ´kick out´ permanent (or temporary, per a spell, etc) item abilities temporarily, or do item abilities prevent class abilities from activating? If none of the class ability can be applied because the item is already +10 equivalent, is the ability wasted or not?
But the idea of the change is that you AVOID having high + equivalent weapons if your class ability adds alot of + equivalents. Instead you use the money to buy other gear that you otherwise couldn`t afford.
And the paladin doesn't need as many Con as a warrior : his Cha pumps his Fortitude save and his Cha give him more swift action healing. Since he doesn't need Wis either, he's less MAD than the warrior.
+1
A Paladin doesn't need 18 char. He should go str and some char. Since char is the only mental stat he need to boost, getting a headband of char is no problem. Starting with char 15 (or 16) he will have +3 modifier at level 4. So enouge he can get a headband +2.Also if you gonna dump int you might as well go 7. He'll get the same skill points per level as int 8.
I have never seen a fighter with wisdom as a dump stat. Will saves are one of the few weaknesses a fighter have so he might actually want to start with wis 12. A fighjter may alos want to start with 14 con, but he can't, can he?
Divine Bond is still sweet. It just means you don't have to buy a +10 weapon, giving you money to spend elsewhere. Plus, Divine Bond still works miracles for things like the Holy Avenger.
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Divine Bond is still sweet. It just means you don't have to buy a +10 weapon, giving you money to spend elsewhere. Plus, Divine Bond still works miracles for things like the Holy Avenger.
Exactly, a full +10 weapon is expensive. Divine bond saves you a boatload of gold, and is considerably more flexible to boot
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Divine Bond seems perfect for your backup weapons. ..bows for the melee guts, swords for old archer-din.
This way, if you're forced to fight outside your comfort zone, you still have a decent weapon to use.
Its also great if you fight different kinds of enemies; in legacy of fire, having the chance to use axiomatic and keen has proved very very useful (main weapon is icy fire outsider bane scimitar +2)
Actually, to build off my previous statement, I'd say that Divine Bond is almost custom built to make Holy Avengers awesome. One of the big problems they had was that they didn't have all the super sweet abilities that you could make with custom magic weapons. Now that you've got Divine Bond, you get the best of both worlds.
And anything that makes unique magic weapons/armor good is fantastic in my view.
Divine Bond is still sweet. It just means you don't have to buy a +10 weapon, giving you money to spend elsewhere. Plus, Divine Bond still works miracles for things like the Holy Avenger.Exactly, a full +10 weapon is expensive. Divine bond saves you a boatload of gold, and is considerably more flexible to boot
+1
Actually, to build off my previous statement, I'd say that Divine Bond is almost custom built to make Holy Avengers awesome. One of the big problems they had was that they didn't have all the super sweet abilities that you could make with custom magic weapons. Now that you've got Divine Bond, you get the best of both worlds.
And anything that makes unique magic weapons/armor good is fantastic in my view.
+1
Divine Bond seems perfect for your backup weapons. ..bows for the melee guts, swords for old archer-din.
This way, if you're forced to fight outside your comfort zone, you still have a decent weapon to use.
Its also great if you fight different kinds of enemies; in legacy of fire, having the chance to use axiomatic and keen has proved very very useful (main weapon is icy fire outsider bane scimitar +2)
+1
There will be times when you might not want to spend a smite, and the enemy has DR. So you carry more that one weapon. A Blunt weapon, a slashing weapon etc.If you can't use your Holy Avenger, you use your morningstar.
Perhaps not a big problem at level 20, but then again who plays at level 20 anyway.
For those of you who are still upset.
Look at the 3.5 Paladin, then look at the Beta Paladin, then look at the current Paladin.
When your done, look at the Barbarian: 3.5 - Beta - Current.
And finally look at the fighter: 3.5 - Beta - Current.
if you come back with hyperboles on the Paladin nerf you're hopeless.
I'v seen a Pathfinder Paladin in play from level 1 to level 12. It needed a nerf.
Actually the pally might have low Wis (common sense) and high Cha (personality) RP-wise. How else would you explain fanatical LG views? ;)
Actually the pally might have low Wis (common sense) and high Cha (personality) RP-wise. How else would you explain fanatical LG views? ;)
Haha, yes.
Paladins can choose to have low wisdom and low intelligence. Looks like there's an in game reason for Lawful Stupid now ;p
Convert blackguards to even it out.
But no one said that you have to play good versus evil, or that all evil is found in dragons, undead and outsiders.
But if you want to, this ability is too powerful.
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Actually the pally might have low Wis (common sense) and high Cha (personality) RP-wise. How else would you explain fanatical LG views? ;)Haha, yes.
Paladins can choose to have low wisdom and low intelligence. Looks like there's an in game reason for Lawful Stupid now ;p
Oh dear god I hope one of my players doesn't read this...I REALLY don't need him to have more of a reason to play lawful stupid....
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Divine Bond seems perfect for your backup weapons. ..bows for the melee guts, swords for old archer-din.
This way, if you're forced to fight outside your comfort zone, you still have a decent weapon to use.
Its also great if you fight different kinds of enemies; in legacy of fire, having the chance to use axiomatic and keen has proved very very useful (main weapon is icy fire outsider bane scimitar +2)
See that seems cheesy to me. Why would a Paladin have a holy, communion with his god type bond for his back up weapon? That seems like a player trying to eke out every possible advantage not a Paladin character. YMMV.
Actually, to build off my previous statement, I'd say that Divine Bond is almost custom built to make Holy Avengers awesome. One of the big problems they had was that they didn't have all the super sweet abilities that you could make with custom magic weapons. Now that you've got Divine Bond, you get the best of both worlds.
You know, I've never really understood the big love for all the extra abilities and dice you can get with your enhancement bonus. It seems like getting the bonus to hit to make sure you hit and do whatever damage (especially with power attack and a two hander) is more valuable than getting a couple extra dice (average 3.5 damage per die).
Anywho, I'm torn on this nerf. Part of me says, "Hey, Paladins can do a ton of stuff, they shouldn't also be a balls to the wall super destroyer of evil." But, as some mathamagicians pointed out earlier in the thread, well made Fighters nearly match a Paladin's damage output when smiting a normal evil fella. If the APG gives Fighters anything that will bump its DPR (some sort of expendable resource or feat or whatever), Fighters may literally out-damage the Paladin against Demons! Is that what Paladins ought to be like?
You know, I've never really understood the big love for all the extra abilities and dice you can get with your enhancement bonus. It seems like getting the bonus to hit to make sure you hit and do whatever damage (especially with power attack and a two hander) is more valuable than getting a couple extra dice (average 3.5 damage per die).
Between oils and wizard spells, it was really easy to get that enhancement bonus without needing to buy it.
Divine Bond seems perfect for your backup weapons. ..bows for the melee guts, swords for old archer-din.
This way, if you're forced to fight outside your comfort zone, you still have a decent weapon to use.
Its also great if you fight different kinds of enemies; in legacy of fire, having the chance to use axiomatic and keen has proved very very useful (main weapon is icy fire outsider bane scimitar +2)
See that seems cheesy to me. Why would a Paladin have a holy, communion with his god type bond for his back up weapon? That seems like a player trying to eke out every possible advantage not a Paladin character. YMMV.
Actually, to build off my previous statement, I'd say that Divine Bond is almost custom built to make Holy Avengers awesome. One of the big problems they had was that they didn't have all the super sweet abilities that you could make with custom magic weapons. Now that you've got Divine Bond, you get the best of both worlds.You know, I've never really understood the big love for all the extra abilities and dice you can get with your enhancement bonus. It seems like getting the bonus to hit to make sure you hit and do whatever damage (especially with power attack and a two hander) is more valuable than getting a couple extra dice (average 3.5 damage per die).
Anywho, I'm torn on this nerf. Part of me says, "Hey, Paladins can do a ton of stuff, they shouldn't also be a balls to the wall super destroyer of evil." But, as some mathamagicians pointed out earlier in the thread, well made Fighters nearly match a Paladin's damage output when smiting a normal evil fella. If the APG gives Fighters anything that will bump its DPR (some sort of expendable resource or feat or whatever), Fighters may literally out-damage the Paladin against Demons! Is that what Paladins ought to be like?
Don't worry, that math just shows that the Fighter (with all her class abilities) can get close to the Paladin's damage with Smite, for the purpose of illustrating Smite on its lonesome. When combined with all of the Paladin's other abilities, the Paladin still rocks. I mean, even the Cha bonus to all saves and strong base Will save (the latter of which is unique to them among all the full BAB classes) are huge--the Fighter's biggest weakness is her Will save, and when the enemy caster uses Confusion or Dominate to get the high-damage Fighter on her side, its bad. It doesn't work so well on the Paladin.
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Divine Bond seems perfect for your backup weapons. ..bows for the melee guts, swords for old archer-din.
This way, if you're forced to fight outside your comfort zone, you still have a decent weapon to use.
Its also great if you fight different kinds of enemies; in legacy of fire, having the chance to use axiomatic and keen has proved very very useful (main weapon is icy fire outsider bane scimitar +2)
See that seems cheesy to me. Why would a Paladin have a holy, communion with his god type bond for his back up weapon? That seems like a player trying to eke out every possible advantage not a Paladin character. YMMV.
maybe because not everything is going to stay 5' in front of said Paladin. Maybe he needs the lance for some charging love, or has to switch to a bludgeoning or piercing weapon (when his primary is, say, a sword with Slashing only).
"Cheesy" means: not fair, deliberately tweaking the system for unintended advantages, or playing an obviously overpowered character...using the "God-Given" powers you have at your disposal to better defeat Evil (and Chaos...remember, can't smite them, can't bypass DR/Lawful til later) seems perfectly in line with the intended spirit of the Paladin, as well as the wording of the class feature.
Plus, let's not forget that this IS a game, not a dinner-theater production. If you neglect the game mechanics as a Player, I would hazard that your Player Character is NOT living up to his full potential, In-Game. In other words, ignoring the advantages present in such an ability seems highly unlikely for a trained, zealous, divinely-mandated Slayer of Evil, like our good old Paladin.