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i'd even go as far as taking the feat extra traits to pick up heirloom weapon later in the game if we find a good exotic weapon.IMO the one limitation they should put on HR is that it's only eligible during character creation -- if a weapon is just loot that you found later, it's not a family heirloom that you spend time practicing with before going adventuring (with is where the trait bonus to attack comes from).
so once I'm 3rd level my grandpa can't die and will his sword i played with as a kid?
But that's not what you said. If you took it later on and used the "family member died" as a way to get a masterwork weapon, OK. If you take the feat because you found a piece of loot, then that isn't an heirloom weapon.so once I'm 3rd level my grandpa can't die and will his sword i played with as a kid?i'd even go as far as taking the feat extra traits to pick up heirloom weapon later in the game if we find a good exotic weapon.IMO the one limitation they should put on HR is that it's only eligible during character creation -- if a weapon is just loot that you found later, it's not a family heirloom that you spend time practicing with before going adventuring (with is where the trait bonus to attack comes from).
As long as there was at least one level and a decent amount of in game time between the acquiring of the weapon and the acquiring of the trait, I would probably allow it. It isn't technically an family heirloom, but as something that is part of your history, I would allow it as long as you worked it into your character's story and didn't try to take the trait immediately.
As long as there was at least one level and a decent amount of in game time between the acquiring of the weapon and the acquiring of the trait, I would probably allow it. It isn't technically an family heirloom, but as something that is part of your history, I would allow it as long as you worked it into your character's story and didn't try to take the trait immediately.But that's not what you said. If you took it later on and used the "family member died" as a way to get a masterwork weapon, OK. If you take the feat because you found a piece of loot, then that isn't an heirloom weapon.so once I'm 3rd level my grandpa can't die and will his sword i played with as a kid?i'd even go as far as taking the feat extra traits to pick up heirloom weapon later in the game if we find a good exotic weapon.IMO the one limitation they should put on HR is that it's only eligible during character creation -- if a weapon is just loot that you found later, it's not a family heirloom that you spend time practicing with before going adventuring (with is where the trait bonus to attack comes from).
Since heirloom weapons are always of masterwork quality, you can't take a piece of loot as an heirloom weapon unless it's masterwork.
Since heirloom weapons are always of masterwork quality, you can't take a piece of loot as an heirloom weapon unless it's masterwork.As long as there was at least one level and a decent amount of in game time between the acquiring of the weapon and the acquiring of the trait, I would probably allow it. It isn't technically an family heirloom, but as something that is part of your history, I would allow it as long as you worked it into your character's story and didn't try to take the trait immediately.But that's not what you said. If you took it later on and used the "family member died" as a way to get a masterwork weapon, OK. If you take the feat because you found a piece of loot, then that isn't an heirloom weapon.so once I'm 3rd level my grandpa can't die and will his sword i played with as a kid?i'd even go as far as taking the feat extra traits to pick up heirloom weapon later in the game if we find a good exotic weapon.IMO the one limitation they should put on HR is that it's only eligible during character creation -- if a weapon is just loot that you found later, it's not a family heirloom that you spend time practicing with before going adventuring (with is where the trait bonus to attack comes from).
Masterwork weapons as loot aren't unheard of. You can get them with regular frequency in the early levels, which is the best time to be picking up a weapon that could eventually become an important enough story item to keep into higher levels.
I personally don't find the trait all that overpowered. A good DM will take the built in plot hook and use it to pull the character into the campaign and world.
Since heirloom weapons are always of masterwork quality, you can't take a piece of loot as an heirloom weapon unless it's masterwork.
Why do you need to take it from loot? Seriously.
Wizard Wally : "Hey guys, my sister's wedding was fun! She married a minor noble! My grand father was so proud he almost exploded." He laughs, and then pulls a MW bastard sword out of his bag of holding. "Look! This was my grandfather's sword when he was in King Alphonse's Royal Guard." He whips it around one handed, showing a lot of skill with it. "When I was little, I used to practice with this thing every day, until I got too old to sneak into Grandfather's storeroom. That stupid window was too small once I got to be 13." He grins. "Grand father gave it to me though, even though I ended up studying wizardry."
Boom, Wally has spent a feat for two traits at level 9. He took Heirloom Weapon (Bastard Sword), and got his grand father's MW bastard sword at his sister's wedding.
I'm not even sure if Heirlom Weapon can be used as a prerequisite for other feats.
It can't.
And that would work fine. Nobody is saying that it wouldn't, but that wouldn't be (as name violation put it), "i'd even go as far as taking the feat extra traits to pick up heirloom weapon later in the game if we find a good exotic weapon."
Ah, yeah, ok, sorry, missed that. Nah, heirloom weapon's free proficiency is based on the fact you grew up playing with that specific weapon. The only way it should show up is if you are working on some family plot device, and find it in the loot.
And that would work fine. Nobody is saying that it wouldn't, but that wouldn't be (as name violation put it), "i'd even go as far as taking the feat extra traits to pick up heirloom weapon later in the game if we find a good exotic weapon."
As long the good exotic weapon also happens to be masterwork, which isn't that hard to believe could happen at lower levels, there wouldn't be a problem. If it happens at higher levels when magic weapons are common, it could still be done, as a lot of backup weapons for most of the single digit levels are still masterwork.
And that would work fine. Nobody is saying that it wouldn't, but that wouldn't be (as name violation put it), "i'd even go as far as taking the feat extra traits to pick up heirloom weapon later in the game if we find a good exotic weapon."As long the good exotic weapon also happens to be masterwork, which isn't that hard to believe could happen at lower levels, there wouldn't be a problem. If it happens at higher levels when magic weapons are common, it could still be done, as a lot of backup weapons for most of the single digit levels are still masterwork.
All magical weapons are masterwork, so any magic item can also be a heirloom.
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I'm not even sure if Heirlom Weapon can be used as a prerequisite for other feats.It can't.
So it's probably strongest at first level. At a later point the character just gets a +1 on attack rolls, but has to use a steel weapon.
If players take Heirloom Weapon to gain falcate proficiency, that's mostly a falcata problem. And any character with martial weapon proficiency can get falcata proficiency for 1,500 gp, he just has to avoid AMFs.
So it's probably strongest at first level. At a later point the character just gets a +1 on attack rolls, but has to use a steel weapon.
If players take Heirloom Weapon to gain falcate proficiency, that's mostly a falcata problem. And any character with martial weapon proficiency can get falcata proficiency for 1,500 gp, he just has to avoid AMFs.
What's AMF?
Also, how does one get proficiency through gold?
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> > I'm not even sure if Heirlom Weapon can be used as a prerequisite for other feats.
>
> It can't.
It grants you proficiency in a weapon which you might not otherwise have proficiency in, meaning you could take Heirloom Weapon for a falcata and then take Weapon Focus:Falcata. (It may not be advisable to construct a build that way, but you can certainly do it.)
> > I'm not even sure if Heirlom Weapon can be used as a prerequisite for other feats.
>
> It can't.It grants you proficiency in a weapon which you might not otherwise have proficiency in, meaning you could take Heirloom Weapon for a falcata and then take Weapon Focus:Falcata. (It may not be advisable to construct a build that way, but you can certainly do it.)
Except it doesn't give you Falcata proficiency. You can use Uncle Zevran's falcata as if you were proficient.
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heirloom weapon
benefit: This heirloom weapon is of masterwork quality (but you pay only the standard cost at character creation). You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls with this specific weapon and are considered proficient with that specific weapon (but not other weapons of that type) even if you do not have the required proficiencies.
weapon focus
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
whats not legal?
you can legally take weapon focus "this one weapon", but most people wouldn't. (Black blade magus being the exception)
weapon focus "specific weapon called thors warhammer" is allowed, but weapon focus "warhammer" would work on any warhammer, including thors
It would work better in my own game, since we moved to weapon groups. So, the trait actually gives you Weapon Proficiency (Weapon Type) in my game. That's because WP in my game is by weapon group (see fighter entry in core).
By core, it would only give you proficiency in Grandpa's Bastard Sword. You could then pick up Weapon Focus (Grandpa's Bastard Sword), since you are proficient with it. However, that's a dangerous build, as if you ever lose GBS, then you're out of luck on feats that no longer work.
I don't see anyone ever taking that chain honestly. At least not in my games. I actually do sunder weapons occasionally, or have NPCs steel the character's stuff if they get KOd.
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To elaborate for a sec ...
The current feat, Weapon Focus, requires you to be proficient in all types of weapon A to get a bonus to all types of weapon A. Being proficient in a single unique weapon A in order to gain bonus to all types of weapon A wouldn't seem correct.
Now, a feat that required to be proficient in a unique singular weapon in order to get a Weapon Focus bonus in that singular unique weapon might be great, but it doesn't exist.
]
Heirloom weapons gain the same metagame plot immunity as a wizard's spellbooks or a witch's familiar.
I just wish there were PF Society feats for the newer classes :)
They are very good overall. I've taken the fighter and the cleric ones before.
agree completely. The Rogue one is bad, indeed.
Overall however, I actually think traits that make a skill into a class skill are the most powerful overall, since there's no other mechanic that can replace that.
Those are awesome because allow greater customization. Since customization is a strong point of the system, this is a good thing.
To elaborate for a sec ...
The current feat, Weapon Focus, requires you to be proficient in all types of weapon A to get a bonus to all types of weapon A. Being proficient in a single unique weapon A in order to gain bonus to all types of weapon A wouldn't seem correct.
Now, a feat that required to be proficient in a unique singular weapon in order to get a Weapon Focus bonus in that singular unique weapon might be great, but it doesn't exist.
Short of an FAQ or Dev Quote (Jason Buhlman or Sean Reynolds, as much as I respect James Jacobs, he's said himself multiple times that rules decisions come from JB/SKR, his posts are only how he would handle it in his game), the combo is legal. It's just a stupid thing to do is all.
I know I would allow people to take feats based on heirloom weapon. Like mdt has said, the risk of taking an entire line of feats based on a single weapon is risky enough that the people most likely to abuse it are going to be the first people to flat out reject the idea.
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If we're going to claim a trait which gives +1 to a Skill and makes that Skill a class Skill gives us a net +4 bonus for the trait, then I guess we also have to count Heirloom Weapon as giving a +6 bonus to attack, since it eliminates the -4 non-proficiency penalty, and gives a +1 trait bonus, and gives you a masterwork weapon. :)
Compared with Rich Parents, which grants anywhere from +890gp (for the lowest Monk roll on starting gold) to a mere +600gp (for the highest starting gold roll), Heirloom Weapon is granting a flat +300gp (for adding the masterwork quality to a weapon) - so it's worth up to half the value of another trait just for that.
Compared with Anatomist (which gives a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls to confirm critical hits), Fencer (which gives +1 trait bonus on AoO with some weapons), and the like, Heirloom's weapon covers all such bonuses by giving a flat +1 trait bonus on attack rolls - so it's worth multiple other traits (or simply the Weapon Focus Feat) for that.
Compared with the Martial Weapon Proficiency, or Exotic Weapon Proficiency Feats Heirloom Weapon matches them - so it's worth a Feat for that.
The only mitigating aspect of the trait is the 'unique weapon only' restriction... which, as has been pointed out, really isn't as much of a restriction as it seems at first glance (after all, how many characters actually use more than one melee, one missile, and maybe a back-up weapon?).
Put another way - without the unique weapon restriction the trait is worth 2 Feats (Proficiency + Weapon Focus) and up to half a trait (up to half the gp value of Rich Parents)... So maybe 2.25 Feats worth of stuff in total. The unique weapon restriction, in theory, reduces this total to 0.5 of a Feat. So, that restriction is dividing the 'value' of the component parts of the trait by 4.5...
... How many other traits or Feats would PCs happily take the 'unique item only' restriction on if in return they could multiple the 'value' of that Feat or trait by 4.5? That's like being able to take a whole Feat chain for the cost of a single Feat, as long as you limit it to one unique item.
So... overpowered for a trait? Most certainly. Game breaking? Not at all. Flavourful? Definitely, if taken for that (and not sheer min-maxing cheese... but the same can be said for pretty much anything in the game).
Personally, whilst I recognise that the trait breaks the general mechanics of traits in a big way, I don't really have any problem with using it in my games. Low level PCs generally need all the help they can get, and it allows players to make level 1 characters which fit concepts they otherwise couldn't (due to the weird +1 BAB prerequistite on the Exotic Weapon Proficiency Feat). It also tends to add depth to character backstories (even if players are just trying to think up a way to get me, the DM, to allow such cheese!), and promotes characters sticking to one weapon they upgrade throughout their careers (in a fantasy fiction style), instead of swapping every other fight (in a MMORPG style). If anything it's the full +1 bonus to attacks which is the overpowered bit (where other traits just give a +1 bonus to attack rolls in specific circumstances, like confirming criticals or AoO), but even that isn't likely to break the game any time soon.
IMHO, as always... :)
The +1 to attacks is noticable at 1st or 2nd level, but even by 3rd level, I am noticing that it has less of an impact as everyone else starts getting masterwork weapons, and the numbers are starting to get high enough that a single constant +1 simply isn't as visible or as powerful as all the other buffs that are starting to appear regularly.
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To elaborate for a sec ...
The current feat, Weapon Focus, requires you to be proficient in all types of weapon A to get a bonus to all types of weapon A. Being proficient in a single unique weapon A in order to gain bonus to all types of weapon A wouldn't seem correct.
Now, a feat that required to be proficient in a unique singular weapon in order to get a Weapon Focus bonus in that singular unique weapon might be great, but it doesn't exist.
where are you getting Proficient in all types of that weapon? you are adding words that arent there.
again
weapon focus
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
no "all weapons of that type" clause.
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you can legally take weapon focus "this one weapon", but most people wouldn't. (Black blade magus being the exception)
Or fighters, since they can retrain feats (to be on the safe side, my builds have a fighter-bonus feat taken at some point before weapon focus which can later be exchanged for EWP. Cleave and Furious Focus are examples of feats which lose luster with leveling and hence make good trade-outs prior to playing Lair of the Sundering Devils.
If I took Heirloom weapon it would be to get an Exotic Weapon at 1st level with 3/4 BAB class that I can use. At 3rd I'd grab Exotic Weapon Proficiency and build on that chain. I'd do that anyways with 3/4 BAB class but I'd be stuck not being able to use the weapon I want with that build till 3rd level. I hate how Exotic Weapon Proficiency requires a BAB of +1.
All magical weapons are masterwork, so any magic item can also be a heirloom.And that would work fine. Nobody is saying that it wouldn't, but that wouldn't be (as name violation put it), "i'd even go as far as taking the feat extra traits to pick up heirloom weapon later in the game if we find a good exotic weapon."As long the good exotic weapon also happens to be masterwork, which isn't that hard to believe could happen at lower levels, there wouldn't be a problem. If it happens at higher levels when magic weapons are common, it could still be done, as a lot of backup weapons for most of the single digit levels are still masterwork.
Magic items aren't masterwork, their ma...
Wait, no, forget I said anything. I'd like to play in one of your games. I'll be starting play, at level one, with my granddaddy's +5 Vorpal BastardSword, if you don't mind.
To elaborate for a sec ...
The current feat, Weapon Focus, requires you to be proficient in all types of weapon A to get a bonus to all types of weapon A. Being proficient in a single unique weapon A in order to gain bonus to all types of weapon A wouldn't seem correct.
Now, a feat that required to be proficient in a unique singular weapon in order to get a Weapon Focus bonus in that singular unique weapon might be great, but it doesn't exist.
where are you getting Proficient in all types of that weapon? you are adding words that arent there.
again
weapon focus
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
no "all weapons of that type" clause.
Yes. Weapon Focus only ever gave you +1 with one particular weapon, selected when you took the feat, regardless of whether you took Heirloom Weapon. Why do you think everyone thinks it's such a terrible feat?
Magic items aren't masterwork, their ma...Wait, no, forget I said anything. I'd like to play in one of your games. I'll be starting play, at level one, with my granddaddy's +5 Vorpal BastardSword, if you don't mind.
All dolphins are whales.
Not all whales are dolphins.All humans are mammals.
Not all mammals are humans.
All politicians are liars.
Not all liars are politicians.
All politicians are invertibrates.
Not all invertibrates are politicians.
All magic weapons are MasterWork.
Not all MasterWork weapons are magical.
Magic items aren't masterwork, their ma...
Wait, no, forget I said anything. I'd like to play in one of your games. I'll be starting play, at level one, with my granddaddy's +5 Vorpal BastardSword, if you don't mind.
He means at level 5 or so, by a +1 weapon without paying masterwork cost with hierloom trait as you could choose it.
You can't take Hierloom for a +5 Vorpal bastardsword till 15th level minimum (usually).
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where are you getting Proficient in all types of that weapon? you are adding words that arent there.
again
weapon focus
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
no "all weapons of that type" clause.
You didn't show the whole entry:
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
So if your proficient with Long Swords, you can can take Weapon Focus (Long Sword) and get +1att with any long sword (as I said).
There is no feat that says if your proficient with one particular unique weapon, you can gain Weapon Focus bonus for that one unique weapon.
So your left with saying that proficiency with one unique weapon, is enough to gain a bonus in all weapons of that TYPE (see feat).
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As far as the designers, I couldn't find the quote in question ... it was part of a weapon focus thread somewhere ... so YMMV. I wouldn't allow Heirloom weapons to qualify for the feats, and in PFS definitely not, just because I don't see how its even close according to core or intention. What other trait replaces a feat as a prerequisite?
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where are you getting Proficient in all types of that weapon? you are adding words that arent there.
again
weapon focus
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
no "all weapons of that type" clause.
You didn't show the whole entry:
** spoiler omitted **
So if your proficient with Long Swords, you can can take Weapon Focus (Long Sword) and get +1att with any long sword (as I said).
There is no feat that says if your proficient with one particular unique weapon, you can gain Weapon Focus bonus for that one unique weapon.
So your left with saying that proficiency with one unique weapon, is enough to gain a bonus in all weapons of that TYPE (see feat).
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As far as the designers, I couldn't find the quote in question ... it was part of a weapon focus thread somewhere ... so YMMV. I wouldn't allow Heirloom weapons to qualify for the feats, and in PFS definitely not, just because I don't see how its even close according to core or intention. What other trait replaces a feat as a prerequisite?
if it isnt in the prereqs or the benefits, it doesnt mean crap. you are quoting and bolding useless fluff. i quoted cold hard mechanics
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
this particular longsword in question is 1 particular type of weapon. it is particularly a long sword
the only place "type" is mentioned at all involving weapons is with bludgeoning, piercing or slashing damage types. weapons dont use the word type anywhere else. and we know its not RAI to pick weapon focus (slashing).
the ONLY parts of feats that matter are the prereq, benefits, special, and normal lines. the wall of text above it is cute, but useless when it comes to what things do
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it doesnt mean crap.
Whatever, I've seen enough ... obviously:
"You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster)"
is not ... how did you so intelligently phrase it ... "crap."
This is not fluff, hence its a rule and hence your obviously ignoring the rule. Do as you like.
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it doesnt mean crap.
Whatever, I've seen enough ... obviously:
"You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster)"
is not ... how did you so intelligently phrase it ... "crap."
This is not fluff, hence its a rule and hence your obviously ignoring the rule. Do as you like.
rules go in correct spots. not there, not a rule. the stuff up top is nice for fluff, but nothing up there is an official rule, just some clarification for rays and grapple.
again weapon "types" are defined as bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing not sword, axe, ect. so are you allowing weapon focus (slashing)?
from the SRD
Type: Weapons are classified according to the type of damage they deal: B for bludgeoning, P for piercing, or S for slashing.
Magic items aren't masterwork, their ma...Wait, no, forget I said anything. I'd like to play in one of your games. I'll be starting play, at level one, with my granddaddy's +5 Vorpal BastardSword, if you don't mind.
All dolphins are whales.
Not all whales are dolphins.All humans are mammals.
Not all mammals are humans.All politicians are liars.
Not all liars are politicians.All politicians are invertibrates.
Not all invertibrates are politicians.All magic weapons are MasterWork.
Not all MasterWork weapons are magical.
I appreciate the lesson in syllogism, but fail too see how it applies to my argument. I never implied all masterwork weapons were magical, nor does heirloom weapon even mention magical weapons.
If all magic weapons are masterwork, and all masterwork weapons can be heirloom weapons; then all magic weapons can be heirloom weapons. And you pay only standard cost (35gp for a Bastard Sword) at character creation.
I appreciate the lesson in syllogism, but fail too see how it applies to my argument. I never implied all masterwork weapons were magical, nor does heirloom weapon even mention magical weapons.If all magic weapons are masterwork, and all masterwork weapons can be heirloom weapons; then all magic weapons can be heirloom weapons. And you pay only standard cost (35gp for a Bastard Sword) at character creation.
Because the trait does not give you a Magic Weapon, it gives you a Masterwork Weapon. A magic weapon is a maswterwork weapon, but the same is not true in reverse.
Your logic is like this : I can get an animal companion who is a dolphin. A dolphin is a whale, so therefore I can also have an orca.
The trait gives you a MW weapon (not a magic weapon).
Because the trait does not give you a Magic Weapon, it gives you a Masterwork Weapon. A magic weapon is a maswterwork weapon, but the same is not true in reverse.
Your logic is like this : I can get an animal companion who is a dolphin. A dolphin is a whale, so therefore I can also have an orca.
The trait gives you a MW weapon (not a magic weapon).
Actually, my logic is just the reverse. I can get an animal companion that is a whale. A dolphin is a whale, therefore I can also have a dolphin.
The trait gives a MW weapon. Magic Weapons are MW. Therefore I can take a magic weapon.
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now if we REALLY want to rules lawyer this into stupidity, one could argue that heirloom weapon makes you GIVE UP proficiency in a lot of weapons
"Benefit: This heirloom weapon is of masterwork quality (but you pay only the standard cost at character creation). You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls with this specific weapon and are considered proficient with that specific weapon (but not other weapons of that type) even if you do not have the required proficiencies.
so if you heirloom weapon a falacata, you COULD be giving up proficiency with all other slashing weapons (since you are considered "not proficient" with other slashing weapons and this specific trait overrides the general rules of proficiency)
Because the trait does not give you a Magic Weapon, it gives you a Masterwork Weapon. A magic weapon is a maswterwork weapon, but the same is not true in reverse.
Your logic is like this : I can get an animal companion who is a dolphin. A dolphin is a whale, so therefore I can also have an orca.
The trait gives you a MW weapon (not a magic weapon).
Actually, my logic is just the reverse. I can get an animal companion that is a whale. A dolphin is a whale, therefore I can also have a dolphin.
The trait gives a MW weapon. Magic Weapons are MW. Therefore I can take a magic weapon.
If your level 1 character can afford the +5 Vorpal sword and the feat pays 300 gold for the masterwork component you are correct, because the feat pays for the masterwork component. I haven't played in a game where I had starting gold over 1000 gold though.
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I've made one or two absurdest arguments in my time, but MAN! This thread puts me to shame!