One other thing you could do is make bad rolls cool. Come up with situations where failing your roll is a benefit or at leased a cool plot hook. Like Conan the Barbarian (film) where the guy misses and hits the column which then sends parts of it falling down that they all have to try and avoid (good guys and bad guys). Over time this will keep them from thinking that if they roll bad they will automatically have less fun.
I actually do this a lot. I like to include the surrounding environment a lot when I roll out situations. Low rolls tend to cause some interaction in cramped quarters; this almost never results in a numerical penalty or negative effect, it's more for flavor.
Just this past Saturday, the players were battling through a horde of zombies in town, and as they were fighting their way out of an alley, they would get caught up on piles of refuse and had to maneuver around barrels and boxes on low rolls. I allowed the gnome in the group to Spot a window of a building to jump into to circumvent the alley. The spear wielding cleric rolled low to hit, so her spear went through a zombie, but it just shambled to her up the shaft of the spear. Things like that really got the players more interested and excited than simply drawing some squares and saying "he has cover. You miss."
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I have guy who does/did this. He isn't in my current game (Kingmaker), but he is a friend, a good player otherwise, and as boon, as far as having a good Roleplayer at the table.
I simply told him (And everyone) that anyone pulling the Ninja/Snatch dice method misses automatically, period.
That stopped that pretty quick, after a few crucial rolls were missed.
I also sat my most honest player next to him as a watchdog, and h gleefully calls out the guy's rolls. 'Ben rolled a 5! Woohoo Ben!'
Hehehe...
-Uriel
Seriously, as a GM, I encourage cheating.
So, basically, what you're telling me is that the way I GM is wrong. Not only are you saying it is wrong, you are saying that the way I GM encourages people to act in such a way that you think they are worthy of being insulted. When, what I see it as, is a way to promote fun - which is really the ultimate point of the game.
So, yeah, I got a big issue with you. I may not enjoy the way some of you play, but I've always said that what you do at your table is what you do at your table - whether or not I want to play at your table.
Quit being arrogant pricks.
Nobody is saying you GM wrong. Not even me, for as much as we tend to go in circles. GM however you want. You want to encourage cheating? Have at it. Just don't be surprised when you show up on a RPG message board, supporting cheaters, and wonder why we kinda give the "raised eyebrow" look.
Cheating is cheating. Put any spin on that you want.
I have guy who does/did this. He isn't in my current game (Kingmaker), but he is a friend, a good player otherwise, and as boon, as far as having a good Roleplayer at the table.
I simply told him (And everyone) that anyone pulling the Ninja/Snatch dice method misses automatically, period.
That stopped that pretty quick, after a few crucial rolls were missed.I also sat my most honest player next to him as a watchdog, and h gleefully calls out the guy's rolls. 'Ben rolled a 5! Woohoo Ben!'
Hehehe...
-Uriel
I've seen the ninja snatch method quite a few times, amusingly enough the person who does it the most is also the most honest, or at least we've come to call him the whiffle bat considering how often he misses. I have seen players do that in the past though, a little excessively and they seemed to hit more often than not. I'll bear this in mind for situations wherein the layout of the gaming room doesn't facilitate a dice tower.
And if I, as the GM, am at a table where my players are expected to cheat (and know that they are expected to cheat), should a player new to the table just start out and say "Hey guys, I can't abide cheating on dice roles when things go south"?If I was that latter player, I would know it was time for me to find a new gaming group.
+1. (or more)
Also, I have to ask, do you tell new players when they show up "By the way, if you're under 25% hp and things look bad, we expect you to start calling out 18s and 20s on your rolls?", or do they learn this by feeling underpowered compared to all their "lucky" friends, until they figure it out and join in?
Either way, not my kind of game.
I'm sorry, but what's the point of having tactics if there are no threats? I mean, we can just wade in, and then bump our rolls?
If every time things go south, suddenly, everyone hits and crits the baddies regardless of AC, modifiers, etc... then where's the risk? And if there's no *risk*, where's the sense of accomplishment and reward?
Yes, I do realize that I'm taking this to the extreme, but in my experience, allowing "story-based" cheating, even a little, leads to a slippery slope, where people go from bumping their rolls by 1 or 2 when things are rough to just declaring success, for instance.
If you want "roleplay to trump rolls", then do that in a way that's consistent withing the rules. I've known GMs (myself, included) who grant circumstance bonuses for entire encounters based on good planning, good research, etc. Net result: RP helps, rules still matter, there's still a risk.
And yes, I like the idea of a game where the PCs are special - and I hate seeing people die only because the dice hate them - but my solution to that is to not kill them. Defeat doesn't automatically equal TPK unless they're fighting something that's ravenous and unintelligent.. [eg - Take them prisonner to be interrogated/sacrificed/ransommed/tortured/eaten later when we're hungry/etc/etc/etc]. If you want people to be able to feel like they can shape the story by doing something heroic, then give them Hero Points (Action Points, whatever), so they can do those things - but again, within a set of rules... Because those limitations will make those actions even more special -- certainly way cooler and niftier than just having a 20 in your pocket whenever you want it.
The only thing i find odd about this conversation is the disposition of opinions between players and dms. As if they are some kind of different breed of people. If a dm fudges a roll it must be to further the story or make sure everyone is having fun. If a player fudges a roll the automatic assumption is he must be a cheat.
I think in my group the distinction between dm and player is nearly non-existant. Often we work together on adventures, where one runs a couple sessions then another picks it up. Or a pair of dms run a campaign together, trading off in the same way but in a more organized fashion. There is no ultimate authority at the table.
I trust my players judgement in the matter to be close to my own. Sometimes i cant pull punches, so it helps if they throw in an extra heavy punch now and again. I dont advocate fudging rolls either as a dm or as a player, but I have done it for and against the party on both sides of the screen, and really the only thing I think is important is discretion. I am certain I am not the only one in my group to do so either, though much to their credit I cannot recall specific examples. If the group remains unaware, to me it isnt an issue and everyone will continue to have fun.
Perhaps it is a matter of style, as I have never tried to rigidly control my game, either in story or setting, generally if my players want something in my world or in the story, I figure out a way to put it there. I do think there is a loose correlation there. The more collaborative the game, the less this is likely to be an issue. I believe my group is an extreme case of collaboration, which is why I see it as less of a problem then some of those in this thread.
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The only thing i find odd about this conversation is the disposition of opinions between players and dms. As if they are some kind of different breed of people. If a dm fudges a roll it must be to further the story or make sure everyone is having fun. If a player fudges a roll the automatic assumption is he must be a cheat.
Well there are a few reasons for this
DM cheating/fudging = Knows and sees the whole picture, may have made encounter too powerful, made mistake, knows potential future events, etc. Job is to move game along, adjust challenges and provide fair and fun gaming environment.Player cheating = Self serving, even if he saved the party he also saved himself. Improves his abilities, efforts, etc, while other player who do not cheat, or cheat as much suffer full negative effects of bad roll, situation, etc.
So yeah, DM and players are different - they have different jobs, responsibilities and so on. Not different breeds, just different responsibilities. That is RAW at its most basic for most RPGs.
I am sorry if this breaks the kumbaya holding of hands and sharing duties of new school players. That isn't how the game is setup nor designed, nor how most people play it.
If you want to go diceless, or have player take 100% story control, or no one dies, etc, that's cool - it isn't PFRPG as it is written (nor is it even close) but another game entirely. But people who play a diceless game and allow random at will cheating/fudging shouldn't really be commenting on a post about cheating since it has NOTHING to do with their particular groups play-style i.e. apples vs. oranges. If you want to promote and advocate a diceless or fudging based game with player control it probably shouldn't be in a thread with a group where -
A) The DM doesn't cheat
B) All the other players go by the rules, honest about dire rolls, stats
C) One player doesn't follow the accepted rules and cheats - The problem.
Not trying to incite anyone who advocates a cheating system or player 100% control of the game, it just has 0% to do with the OPs problem. Again you guys are making arguments for a different system.
On a side note, best friend since childhood who gamed with me since we were kids was banned from gaming when it was found he was cheating. Kicked him out of the gaming group after repeated attempts to contain and observe him. Eventually (years later) was allowed to play with requirements that duplicates of his PC sheet were kept by a 3rd party, die rolls in open, random audits (all ok'ed by the cheating player). It sucked, was totally destructive and self-serving. If if his actions saved others it was always during the course of saving himself.
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The only thing i find odd about this conversation is the disposition of opinions between players and dms. As if they are some kind of different breed of people.
As has been pointed out, there are two main differences:
1) GMs are (the majority of the time) in charge of many more characters than the players, are privy to much more info about the game than the players, and are expected to act as arbiters in any situation where the rules aren't 100% clear.2) It's assumed by most gamers (IME) that many GMs fudge rolls occasionally, and GMs will often state up front, at the beginning of a game, their stance on the fudging issue, so it is known to the group. When players "fudge", they obviously don't announce it to the table, and it is almost never SOP for players to have free reign over what the results of their dice are.
There is a reason that we make distinctions between GMs and players - it's because the game itself makes a distinction between them.
And as I mentioned before, if you're playing in a group where everyone is expected to fudge their die rolls, or everyone has equal responsibility and control over every game element, then you are an exception, not the rule. If you break the rules after everyone agrees that the rules don't apply, then you aren't cheating.
If a dm fudges a roll it must be to further the story or make sure everyone is having fun.
If a GM fudges a roll, yes, it should be to ensure everyone is having fun, and that is often the reason a GM fudges rolls.
If a player fudges a roll the automatic assumption is he must be a cheat.
It's a fair assumption. An average game assumes that players don't fudge rolls, and abide by the numbers on the dice. If a player does fudge a roll, he's either doing it without consent and is therefore a cheater, or he's doing it with the consent of the group in which case it's not cheating at all, it's playing by a houserule.
I'd be interested to know: Kolokotroni, Sean FitzSimon (if he's still reading), since you guys have admitted to "fudging" rolls as players, is your GM or the rest of your group aware that you do this? Do they condone/encourage it, as is the case in LillithsThrall's group?
Or do you do it secretly? If secretly, why do you feel the need to hide your activities from the rest of the group, if they only serve to further the game/story, as you claim?
Interesting turn of events in this discussion....
Frankly, the way I see it: Since the OP feels that this whole probable cheating/fudging being committed by his players is a problem to him and his game, then it is a problem for him and his game.
All these feel good posts touting the wonders and virtues of wholesale group-cheat is nice see (maybe) but they probably should be done in another thread.
It's a fair assumption. An average game assumes that players don't fudge rolls, and abide by the numbers on the dice. If a player does fudge a roll, he's either doing it without consent and is therefore a cheater, or he's doing it with the consent of the group in which case it's not cheating at all, it's playing by a houserule.
I totally agree, and in fact I would rather see a heropoint/action point system put in place, I was just interested in putting across my view on the general subject. Where I certainly dont advocate fudging, but I recognize the need to do so at times.
I'd be interested to know: Kolokotroni, Sean FitzSimon (if he's still reading), since you guys have admitted to "fudging" rolls as players, is your GM or the rest of your group aware that you do this? Do they condone/encourage it, as is the case in LillithsThrall's group?
Or do you do it secretly? If secretly, why do you feel the need to hide your activities from the rest of the group, if they only serve to further the game/story, as you claim?
I think the most important part of this is that it's discrete. For example in the case where my paladin would have one shotted a major badguy in an encounter the dm had worked hard on, and I fudged it against myself, if the dm was aware of it it would have cheapened the experience for him. As it stood I think my actions made it a more fun experience for him. I do not know if that would be the case if he had been aware of the fudge.
The same goes for the other way around. As a dm, I will put on a performance if I am fudging rolls, I dont WANT the players to know it because I think it makes for a better experience. My goal when I am dming is to make the players THINK they are in grave danger, but for them to pull through. I prefer to work within the rules to do this, but sometimes it calls for dealing with outliers in the world of probability. But I still think its important for players to think I could and would have killed them, or else the sense of danger and excitement is lost. That is why I believe that fudging should be done very rarely and in secret regardless of the side of the screen you are on.
Keep in mind, I do not advocate diceless play, or the player having 100% control over the story. What I prefer is for the players to be actively involved in crafting the game and the story. Because I think for my group it makes for a more fun game, then if the dm played the role of a video game/ movie director, and set a rigid path for players to follow.
The only thing i find odd about this conversation is the disposition of opinions between players and dms. As if they are some kind of different breed of people. If a dm fudges a roll it must be to further the story or make sure everyone is having fun. If a player fudges a roll the automatic assumption is he must be a cheat.
I think in my group the distinction between dm and player is nearly non-existant. Often we work together on adventures, where one runs a couple sessions then another picks it up. Or a pair of dms run a campaign together, trading off in the same way but in a more organized fashion. There is no ultimate authority at the table.
I trust my players judgement in the matter to be close to my own. Sometimes i cant pull punches, so it helps if they throw in an extra heavy punch now and again. I dont advocate fudging rolls either as a dm or as a player, but I have done it for and against the party on both sides of the screen, and really the only thing I think is important is discretion. I am certain I am not the only one in my group to do so either, though much to their credit I cannot recall specific examples. If the group remains unaware, to me it isnt an issue and everyone will continue to have fun.
Perhaps it is a matter of style, as I have never tried to rigidly control my game, either in story or setting, generally if my players want something in my world or in the story, I figure out a way to put it there. I do think there is a loose correlation there. The more collaborative the game, the less this is likely to be an issue. I believe my group is an extreme case of collaboration, which is why I see it as less of a problem then some of those in this thread.
I can understand there being no ultimate authority at a table in the sense that nobody is THE DM all the time, but where does the buck stop for any particular session? Wouldn't that be the DM of the day?
Frankly, if I had another player fudge against the party, I think I'd be kind of pissed off. I expect the DM to use his insider knowledge to keep the game flowing along and make adjustments if needed. But for a player to do so without that insider perspective seems like meddling with things without enough ability to predict consequences. It would also feel like you're setting yourself at cross-purposes to the rest of us players who may want to build a good story, yes, but also don't want to have to be subject to a monster's attacks longer than necessary.
This is one reason I think player cheating is generally bad for the group dynamic.
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Well there are a few reasons for this
DM cheating/fudging = Knows and sees the whole picture, may have made encounter too powerful, made mistake, knows potential future events, etc. Job is to move game along, adjust challenges and provide fair and fun gaming environment.
Player cheating = Self serving, even if he saved the party he also saved himself. Improves his abilities, efforts, etc, while other player who do not cheat, or cheat as much suffer full negative effects of bad roll, situation, etc.So yeah, DM and players are different - they have different jobs, responsibilities and so on...
This^^
As a DM, I have fudged a rare dice roll, but only to advance the story, or to attempt to correct a miscalculation on my part. I sometimes take long breaks between DMing and I get rusty. I make mistakes. I sometimes over/under-estimate the party's abilities. I rolled up an encounter that was a bit too rough for my party, early in a new campaign I was running. I fudged 2 attack rolls that would've otherwise killed a new player's character on the second night of gaming. So, instead of outright killing a new player's character, they simply went unconscious at -2 hp, with an ally close by capable of helping them stabilize. I made a bad DM call with the encounter I placed in front of the players, and I lessened the blow of two hits to help try and reign things back in a bit.
As a player? Never. I have miscalculated bonuses before, but those were honest mathematical mistakes and not attempts to cheat, or fudge. I actually have a reputation for rolling low a lot, so it's almost just as much of a spectacle when I roll low as when someone else roll's a crit; I make no attempt to hide my low rolls. I roll out in the open, for all to see. On many occasions, I have gone entire game sessions without rolling higher than a 5 on the d20.
I was once accused of being a munchkin since I tend to optimize my characters. One of my fellow gamers jumped in to my defense by saying: "Dude! Have you seen him roll? He has to power-game just to survive!" Funny, but true.
I can understand there being no ultimate authority at a table in the sense that nobody is THE DM all the time, but where does the buck stop for any particular session? Wouldn't that be the DM of the day?Frankly, if I had another player fudge against the party, I think I'd be kind of pissed off. I expect the DM to use his insider knowledge to keep the game flowing along and make adjustments if needed. But for a player to do so without that insider perspective seems like meddling with things without enough ability to predict consequences. It would also feel like you're setting yourself at cross-purposes to the rest of us players who may want to build a good story, yes, but also don't want to have to be subject to a monster's attacks longer than necessary.
This is one reason I think player cheating is generally bad for the group dynamic.
In the vast majority of situations I agree with you. But there are definately times when a player is capable of making that judgement. When you are about to single shot the big bad guy you have been building up to for the last 5 sessions, it doesnt require some additional perpective to realize this will put a damper on things. If you can visibly see other players getting frustrated with your character out performing them in a similar role and the party is not in mortal danger (it should be clear how dangerous an encoutner is a couple rounds in no?) then i think again its possible to make a judgement call here. Could I be wrong? Ofcourse, but its not impossible for me to be right either.
As a player? Never. I have miscalculated bonuses before, but those were honest mathematical mistakes and not attempts to cheat, or fudge. I actually have a reputation for rolling low a lot, so it's almost just as much of a spectacle when I roll low as when someone else roll's a crit; I make no attempt to hide my low rolls. I roll out in the open, for all to see. On many occasions, I have gone entire game sessions without rolling higher than a 5 on the d20.
I was once accused of being a munchkin since I tend to optimize my characters. One of my fellow gamers jumped in to my defense by...
Have you tried different dice? It is possible for dice to be slightly mishapen enough to roll 'better' or 'worse' then average. If this is a reoccuring theme, its time to look for new dice.
Have you tried different dice? It is possible for dice to be slightly mishapen enough to roll 'better' or 'worse' then average. If this is a reoccuring theme, its time to look for new dice.
I have. I own at least 12 different sets, along with handfuls of single dice I've acquired over the years. I'm convinced it's something in the way I roll them. Something to do with how my hand moves, or what number is already facing up when I roll them. Either way, it's so bad it's affected the way I make characters.
In the vast majority of situations I agree with you. But there are definately times when a player is capable of making that judgement. When you are about to single shot the big bad guy you have been building up to for the last 5 sessions, it doesnt require some additional perpective to realize this will put a damper on things. If you can visibly see other players getting frustrated with your character out performing them in a similar role and the party is not in mortal danger (it should be clear how dangerous an encoutner is a couple rounds in no?) then i think again its possible to make a judgement call here. Could I be wrong? Ofcourse, but its not impossible for me to be right either.
My take on situations like these is that they are better dealt with through other decisions than fudging the dice.
One-shotting the BBEG can be pretty memorable in and of itself, particularly if accompanied by an appropriate one-liner or soliloquy. But I have to ask, how do you know you're going to one-shot him? If you're a couple of rounds into the encounter and have received enough info to tell, then it's no longer really a one-shot as I see it. Even if he hasn't been hit yet, a couple of rounds of active conflict pretty much keeps it from being a blatant one-shot. If you're using a power that explicitly causes one-shots like a vorpal weapon, then the appropriate decision would be to not use that power if you really want to avoid one-shotting the BBEG.
If you're outperforming another PC because of hot dice, I wouldn't change it. Random chance will change that for you eventually anyway. If it's because of a superior build or superior playing skills in this particular area, then a better solution would be making different decisions. If you care about overshadowing other players in the first place, you're probably not inclined to push the envelope of optimization in build or tactics all the time anyway. So it's easy enough to take a different action to shunt the spotlight to another PC or share it in some fun way.
I have. I own at least 12 different sets, along with handfuls of single dice I've acquired over the years. I'm convinced it's something in the way I roll them. Something to do with how my hand moves, or what number is already facing up when I roll them. Either way, it's so bad it's affected the way I make characters.
Have you tried different dice? It is possible for dice to be slightly mishapen enough to roll 'better' or 'worse' then average. If this is a reoccuring theme, its time to look for new dice.
Could be. I realized one time while I was rolling up a rifts character that the way I picked up the d6 and rolled it tended to make it show whatever number was facing up when I picked it up.
This was back where if you rolled 17+ you added a d6 to that stat, and if you rolled a 6 on that d6 you rolled another d6 ad infinitum. I ended up with a stat like 38 or so because of how I rolled the die, which is when it hit me that something really was off in how I was throwing the die.
My take on situations like these is that they are better dealt with through other decisions than fudging the dice.
One-shotting the BBEG can be pretty memorable in and of itself, particularly if accompanied by an appropriate one-liner or soliloquy. But I have to ask, how do you know you're going to one-shot him? If you're a couple of rounds into the encounter and have received enough info to tell, then it's no longer really a one-shot as I see it. Even if he hasn't been hit yet, a couple of rounds of active conflict pretty much keeps it from being a blatant one-shot. If you're using a power that explicitly causes one-shots like a vorpal weapon, then the appropriate decision would be to not use that power if you really want to avoid one-shotting the BBEG.
We were playing with a house rule where 2 natural 20's followed by a confirmed crit is an automatic kill. I rolled a 20, then a 20, and then pretended I failed to confirm (much to the DM's relief since he saw the first 2 rolls and not the third) when I actually rolled enough to confirm (i believe it was an 11 or 12). It was like a 1 in 800 chance, and it happened at the exact wrong moment. If I had revealed that I had confirmed the DM couldnt fudge anything, it was a auto kill by the rules he had laid down. It would have been really disappointing to everyone.
If you're outperforming another PC because of hot dice, I wouldn't change it. Random chance will change that for you eventually anyway. If it's because of a superior build or superior playing skills in this particular area, then a better solution would be making different decisions. If you care about overshadowing other players in the first place, you're probably not inclined to push the envelope of optimization in build or tactics all the time anyway. So it's easy enough to take a different action to shunt the spotlight to another PC or share it in some fun way.
Actually I am an optimizer, my whole group is. We were all however trying out new ideas (most were 3rd party classes or APG classes). There was also a cavalier and a Super Genius Might Godling in the party. Both of those were not built as well as mine since the players had no experience building them. They had less optimal choices in error, errors that would be and were corrected after the session (we always allow players to re-work characters within the first couple sessions). If everyone optimizes there is no reason why you cant optimize AND try to not overshadow other players, which I do.
And in terms of actions, there wasnt a way I could think of to step back without making it obvious. My eidolon hits things, my summoner summons and also hits things with his mace, and he has like 2 spells per day one bf control (grease) and minor buff (mage armor for the eidolon) so i didnt have actions to take besides summon a monster and hit things. There were not any choices i could make that would make any sense in character or at the table where i could step back without continuing to overshadow them.
We were playing with a house rule where 2 natural 20's followed by a confirmed crit is an automatic kill. I rolled a 20, then a 20, and then pretended I failed to confirm (much to the DM's relief since he saw the first 2 rolls and not the third) when I actually rolled enough to confirm (i believe it was an 11 or 12). It was like a 1 in 800 chance, and it happened at the exact wrong moment. If I had revealed that I had confirmed the DM couldnt fudge anything, it was a auto kill by the rules he had laid down. It would have been really disappointing to everyone.
Had that instant-kill result come up in any groups I've played with, we'd have cheered that spectacular result. Frankly, I think it's even more sweet against a BBEG. It's like everything the party's done up to that point has led to a laser-like focus, all the adversities overcome, culminating in a perfect sword-stroke or perfect arrow flying straight and true.
I'd have been really disappointed to see a player fudge that away even if it wasn't my lucky achievement.
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To me the problem with 'constructive' or 'benevolent' cheating is that if you get caught it brings up the same kind of trust issues as any other type of cheating. There is a lot of trust built into the game system and when you catch someone cheating suddenly you start second guessing all that persons calls.
When I was taking him home on a road trip my nephew lied to me about some stupid little inconsequential thing... ultimately whether it was true or false was irrelevant but from that point on I was second guessing pretty much everything he said. If he would lie about something trivial what else will he lie about?
That's how I feel about gaming too. If a player is going to lie about a roll what else is he willing to fudge? Do I need to recheck his character sheet for 'mistakes'... it all goes downhill once that trust is broken.
To me the potential cost to the group of getting caught far outweighs any benefits that might come from even the most well considered cheating.
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I would look over the screen at him, giving him the over the eyeglasses look of the ticked off librarian, and say "Dude?". If he doesn't back off, I would call him on it.
I use action points and allow luck feats that can involve re-rolls. So there is player fudging going on at my table - in an organized and structured way, which I believe is the appropriate method for player fudging. They won't save the party from everything, but they help.
I won't abide willy-nilly player fudging to avoid the consequences of poor decision-making or failing to react to a run of bad luck.
Seeing your look, he backs off and says, "no, I made a mistake. I failed that roll". Everybody was happy and excited, now they aren't. The tpk happens. Oh wait, no it doesn't. You, being the "merciful" GM, bring in the heavy hand of a Deus Ex Machina and the party is saved. Sure, they aren't happy about it. They know they were saved by GM intervention, but what does that matter? You've proven to everyone at the table that you are the puppet master.
How on Earth is enforcing the rule of 'Let the dice fall where they may' the action of a 'puppet-master'?
Do you even understand the meaning of the term?The biggest railroading puppet-masters around are the 'Storyteller' DMs who want a captive audience for their magical Mary-Sue self-insertion fanfic. Thrill to the adventures of Sparkle McSnowflake, as she skips effortlessly through every encounter, on her way to the Magical Tea Party.
When I was taking him home on a road trip my nephew lied to me about some stupid little inconsequential thing... ultimately whether it was true or false was irrelevant but from that point on I was second guessing pretty much everything he said. If he would lie about something trivial what else will he lie about?
Just out of curiosity, are you married? If so, has your wife ever asked you something like:
"Do you think I'm still as pretty as when we got married?"
"Do you think I have gained weight?"
"Do you mind us going to see my parents?"
"What do you think about this haircut?"I mean, realistically, everyone tells "little lies" all the time. Mostly because saying "No, you aren't really as pretty as when we got married" to your spouse is something akin to suicide...
So that must make it OK to con people out of their life savings ... well no, it isn't. There is no black and white answer, it comes down to expectation and scale. However, if you are playing a game there is a social contract to play fair and by the rules (unless there isn't as in certain people's games' cheating seems to be expected, and that's OK if everyone knows about it and is cool with it - and those occasions are the exception, not the rule) because otherwise why have rules at all?
If you break that social contract, you are disrespecting your peers to a greater or lesser extent; you cannot expect them to be happy with that. How unhappy they will be depends on how much you are cheating by, but basically, cheating, in any game, is a bad idea if you want to keep the respect of your peers and stay a member of the social group. Nothing irritates an honest player than being upstaged by a cheat, and if his game is spoiled it is firmly the responsibility of the cheat.
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When I was taking him home on a road trip my nephew lied to me about some stupid little inconsequential thing... ultimately whether it was true or false was irrelevant but from that point on I was second guessing pretty much everything he said. If he would lie about something trivial what else will he lie about?
Just out of curiosity, are you married? If so, has your wife ever asked you something like:
"Do you think I'm still as pretty as when we got married?"
"Do you think I have gained weight?"
"Do you mind us going to see my parents?"
"What do you think about this haircut?"I mean, realistically, everyone tells "little lies" all the time. Mostly because saying "No, you aren't really as pretty as when we got married" to your spouse is something akin to suicide...
That is not the sort of little lie was referring to. I guess I wasn't very clear. Basically my nephew was spinning a wholesale lie trying to make himself look a little better.
I don't generally invest in little white lies to avoid hurting someones feelings either but that is IMO different.
Maybe early in our relationship I set an expectation that I don't invest in casual lying so she doesn't expect it from me... I don't know but it works for us and ultimately I think we trust each other more because of it.
Just out of curiosity, are you married? If so, has your wife ever asked you something like:...If he would lie about something trivial what else will he lie about?
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I am blessed with a wife smart enough not to ask loaded questions
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Maybe early in our relationship I set an expectation that I don't invest in casual lying so she doesn't expect it from me... I don't know but it works for us and ultimately I think we trust each other more because of it.
This really is the crux of the matter, and how I would handle it myself were I involved in such a relationship. I should hope that my wife/girlfriend had the maturity not to put me in that kind of situation.
I mean, realistically, everyone tells "little lies" all the time.
And I consider it a mistake when I do and do what I can to work to rectify it. Just because it's a "little" error doesn't mean it simply should be excused.
*Waits to see if the OP is going to post again... munches popcorn*
I used to get stressed out by forum posts... when the folks who don't agree with you just won't see your point of view it can be so -frustrating-. Then I switched to Ubernostrom and stopped worrying about what people who I'll probably never meet think about some game.
I really hope the tension is gone from this thread. Forums are meant to be fun and informative.
And some people learn how to weight or shave their dice so that they usually come up on good numbers.There is a trick to rolling dice such that they tend to come up the way you want to.
I used to be able to do this with d6s before my hand got broke. I think it's why you have to bounce the die off the far wall or roll them in a cup at gambling halls.
Another thought: Is the camoflauge d20 he's using apart of a set or is it a "spin-down" die? Spin-down dice are typically used by CCGs(like Magic or YugiOh) to keep track of health as all of the low numbers are on one side and all of the high numbers are on the other, they take very little skill to get 15+ every roll.
Also they commonly get mixed into the cheap dice container at the FLGS, I usually pull them out and tll the owner/manager they need to be separated... after a short discussion they usually understand and agree. Not like they don't have tons of extra little boxes laying around.
Anyway... that's only something I noticed one of my player's doing(known for cheating), I made him switch to a normal D20 as I provided a cereal bowl full of dice for them to use for those who did not own a any.
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I agree with the much earlier statement though, just having everyone roll in the open. The box lid idea someone threw out earlier was pretty clever, especially using the 'dice roll off the table excuse', if it's not rolled in the box lid... it wasn't rolled. Though it has the potential of getting in the way when it comes to combat and miniatures/terrain, not to mention 10th level+ sheer number of dice.
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As for dice choices, there are a lot of crappy dice out there, I don't know about visibility from across a table, but definitely low contrast... From completely clear dice(etched numbers, no paint) to those marbled dice with light gold numbers and more recently the various rune dice(elvish, dwarven, etc.) that draw fancy little pictures around the edges in effect hiding the number from a distance. I avoid these kind of dice, I like being able to read my dice WITHOUT examining them closely EVERY roll.
*Waits to see if the OP is going to post again... munches popcorn*
I used to get stressed out by forum posts... when the folks who don't agree with you just won't see your point of view it can be so -frustrating-. Then I switched to Ubernostrom and stopped worrying about what people who I'll probably never meet think about some game.
I really hope the tension is gone from this thread. Forums are meant to be fun and informative.
I like: people posting about how they play the game.
I dislike: people posting about how other people play the game wrong.
This thread's picking up again. All it takes is one or two people to cancel that out. :p
Anyway, I'm with the "no harm, no foul" crowd. Cheating is certainly wrong, and a breach of trust. OTOH, the dice component of the game is pure luck, not skill, so cheating dice is really cheating fate, not another person. When it DOES start to cheat another person, it needs to be stopped. Until then, consider the cost-benefit. It may be much more trouble than it's worth.
I agree with this, providing the fudging is occasional and not to the detriment of any player, gm or story (particularly in a fatal situation where a gm does not kill PC's).
But is a player who is 'lucky' the same as a someone who cheats fate?
That's why a fate chip/ luck re-roll is a better system to mean that the game doesn't rely on every roll.
Also if a player is a cheat for fudging negatively (personally not to screw the group) is this any different from not participating actively in a combat? To me the question of cheating is all about player understanding and charisma.
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I would rather see a heropoint/action point system put in place
This entire thread has inspired me to look into action point systems for my games.
I think the most important part of this is that it's discrete. For example in the case where my paladin would have one shotted a major badguy in an encounter the dm had worked hard on, and I fudged it against myself, if the dm was aware of it it would have cheapened the experience for him.
Emphasis mine. This is exactly why I disapprove of cheating, benevolent or otherwise. It breaks trust and cheapens the experience of playing by the whims of chance.
I'm sorry cheating really says something about a persons character, and it usually isn't good. IMHO anyway.
I have to agree. I don't mind a "once in a long while" fudge from a player I reckon - I've done it a handful of times myself. But someone who is chronically cheating - that means various other things about their personality that means I get concerned about having them in my house, around my things, around my kids... Around my wife if I still had one... Pass.
How to handle a cheating player?
I suggest killing him and putting his skull in the middle of the table as a warning to all other players...but only if it's legal in your state. Of course what you could get away with in Texas isn't always as easy in the northeast.
A .22 pistol with silencer made from a one-liter and steel wool should do the trick.
Or you could take him aside and talk to him, but that never works.
I personally had a player formerly who did this very kind of thing, back when I used to run 3.5
He always played Rogues or Ninja's, and always 'prepared' his characters in advance and brought them to my gaming sessions, frequently, his characters had three or more natural 18's for stats (before items or racial adjustments) and no other attribute was lower than a 12 (in essence every stat offered a bonus).
Another issue is that he frequently took his sheets home and too frequently "lost" them and rewrites it from "memory" at the table. I noticed a gradual creep of the lower stats (adding a point here and there, turning an even to an odd which doesnt change the bonus but it sets him up to turn it into a bonus with the extra +1 for every 4 levels).
He was also frequently always the first character to act, with amazingly good initiative, and almost always scored critical hits and NEVER failed a save when it really mattered (he occasionally failed his saves against non life threatening effects but never failed saves against nasty effects).
He used the snatch method and frequently used a set of miniature dice that came out of a clear plastic tube, these dice were quite literally 1/2 the size of regular sized dice and were a dull green in colour with (what I suspect) green inked white digits which made the numbers almost camoflagued.
How I handled this...
#1 All characters had to be made in my presence, and all statistic rolls were made in front of the other players (I use a heroic method, 4d6 and drop the lowest), this prevents griping of cheating on character creation.
#2 Anyone who forgets their character better bring it next time, in the meantime, I give them an option - make a NEW character or use a pre-prepared NPC I created for just such an occasion.
#3 As much as anyone I have my own favorite dice as the GM, and I dont discrimminate against anyones 'favorite' dice. But I wont allow these 'mini' dice, they are virtually impossible for even the player next to the one using them to identify without a very close examination.
#4 On the subject of dice, I specially bought several sets of bone white dice (all types) with clear black numbers on them. Players who opt to use these in lieu of 'suspect' dice could expect me to fudge something once in a while in their favor (without their knowledge) as my personal gratitude for them making their rolling clearer.
#5 As for 'snatching', I use the rule that someones hand or other object cannot be used to obscure a still moving die intentionally, and when the die stops, the result has to be verified by one other player at the least. Anyone who 'cups' the dice with their hand or an object and declares a result is told to reroll it with another player on hand to 'spot' the die result.
#6 Importantly, if a player is suspected of cheating, never outright accuse them. Simply put it in a generic context that affects ALL players equally (eg "All players have to get at least one other player to verify their rolls", etc.). This results in more genuine dissapointment (with failed rolls) and more genuine excitement (when they actually pass an unlikely save or critical hit something at a pivotal moment). It generally improves the atmosphere of the game overall.
#7 I fudge rolls on occasion for my players behind a screen, but i do make the majority of my rolls infront of the players (attacks, saves, etc) except for skill tests which I always keep hidden (after all they shouldnt know if a hidden opponent is trying to steal from them, etc.). Also I make occasional rolls for the players (I have copies of their character sheets) when its regarding something they arent aware of. Another tactic I use (and I am sure many other DM's use it too) is to make random 'ghost' rolls now and then, usually behind a screen, which always makes my players pause and react with alarm, before they think (mostly correctly) that the coast is actually clear.
Mr. Fishy uses a stick. Beat the Cheat. See it's even catchy put that on a bumper sticker.
I personally had a player formerly who did this very kind of thing, back when I used to run 3.5<snipped>
#6 Importantly, if a player is suspected of cheating, never outright accuse them. Simply put it in a generic context that affects ALL players equally.
Some very, very sound advice there. Most people who cheat are insecure, and get very defensive. On the plus side, when they start to succeed without cheating, they get a real kick out of it.
When I was taking him home on a road trip my nephew lied to me about some stupid little inconsequential thing... ultimately whether it was true or false was irrelevant but from that point on I was second guessing pretty much everything he said. If he would lie about something trivial what else will he lie about?
Just out of curiosity, are you married? If so, has your wife ever asked you something like:
"Do you think I'm still as pretty as when we got married?"
"Do you think I have gained weight?"
"Do you mind us going to see my parents?"
"What do you think about this haircut?"I mean, realistically, everyone tells "little lies" all the time. Mostly because saying "No, you aren't really as pretty as when we got married" to your spouse is something akin to suicide...
I'm married, to a gamer no less. And yes, I get asked those questions. And yes, I answer them honestly. I do so in the most constructive and tactful ways possible, but I do tell her the truth. My wife and I are brutally honest with each other. Painfully so sometimes. We both figure if we want smoke blown up our arses we'll ask any random person those questions. When we want the truth, we ask each other.
Sure, sometimes it's easier to gloss over something with a simple one line statement. If I had a really crappy day at work, and my wife asks how the day went, I may just say "fine" because I don't want to dump a bunch of negativity about my day on her. These things should be a given though.
I take my marriage obviously more serious than gaming, but trust is trust, and time we spend with our fellow gamers is time spent none the less.
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I mean, realistically, everyone tells "little lies" all the time. Mostly because saying "No, you aren't really as pretty as when we got married" to your spouse is something akin to suicide...
I'm married, to a gamer no less. And yes, I get asked those questions.
You could pull out a d20, while saying 'You look wonderful', then roll secretly vs her Sense Motive, before telling her 'You detect no subterfuge'...
I mean, realistically, everyone tells "little lies" all the time. Mostly because saying "No, you aren't really as pretty as when we got married" to your spouse is something akin to suicide...I'm married, to a gamer no less. And yes, I get asked those questions.You could pull out a d20, while saying 'You look wonderful', then roll secretly vs her Sense Motive, before telling her 'You detect no subterfuge'...
Just don't fudge that die roll...
the acutall use of the Eminem solution blows.
we prefers the Aeromsmith solustion
I suggest killing him and putting his skull in the middle of the table as a warning to all other players...but only if it's legal in your state.
Death is the solution to all problems. No man - no problem.
Death is the solution to all problems. No man - no problem.I suggest killing him and putting his skull in the middle of the table as a warning to all other players...but only if it's legal in your state.
I thought it was alcohol...
"The reason for - and solution to - all of life's problems"
P.S.: Still thinking about that Aerosmith solution...
Death is the solution to all problems. No man - no problem.I suggest killing him and putting his skull in the middle of the table as a warning to all other players...but only if it's legal in your state.
Sadly there are these people called 'police' who have a tendency to view dead people as untidy. Then judges and things get involved, and they insist you go and stay in a jail for ages and ages ... easier just to boot them out of your group, really.
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Sadly there are these people called 'police' who have a tendency to view dead people as untidy. Then judges and things get involved, and they insist you go and stay in a jail for ages and ages ... easier just to boot them out of your group, really.Death is the solution to all problems. No man - no problem.I suggest killing him and putting his skull in the middle of the table as a warning to all other players...but only if it's legal in your state.
And they BAN D&D in jail! D: