heres my feat i suggested in Hexcalibers thread, i stole the name (added my own twists) but it is very balanced for what it does. even if it is light on prerequisites. it doesn't totally replace strength at all. you still need to pay 2 feats. which is 20% of the feats you gain throughout 20 levels. it has an entirely different set of restrictions.
Weapon Celerity [Combat Feat]
Prerequisites; Weapon finesse, Dex 15+
Benefit; when attacking with light melee weapons, you may add your dexterity modifier instead of your strength modifier to damage rolls. You cannot multiply this bonus by 1.5 by means of wielding a light weapon in 2 hands. And this bonus is halved for any applicable weapons in your off hand.
Special; if you have the double slice feat, you may add your full dexterity bonus to damage with your offhand instead of ½ this number.
Special; you cannot benefit from both this feat and power attack at the same time.
Special; a rogue may take this feat in place of a rogue talent given that he or she meets the prerequisites
heres my analysis of a 2WF rogue with this feat.
to get this feat, they have to burn 2 feats to start with. and they are burning 4 feats on 2WF, 3 on the attacks, and a 4th on double slice, and they are restricted to light weapons. (which never deal more than 1d6 damage. some only deal 1d4) as people pointed out before me, there are still reasons to invest points in strength, encumbrance rules and skill checks to be precise. but a rogue is roughly burning 60% of thier feats. unless they find them from outside resources. which may deny them access to capstone abilities. and leave them a level or few behind. if 3.5. splats are allowed all open access, expect said rogue to take the craven feat from champions of ruin and penetrating strike alternate class ability from dungeonscape. a 7th feat has been burned. weapon focus may increase this number to 8 feats taken.
assuming all these feats, 2 +5 daggers, 20th level rogue and a 30 dexterity we have the following numbers
to hit
15 (bab) +5 (enhcanement) +1 (weapon focus) +10 (dexterity) -2 (TWF)
29/29/24/24/19/19
Damage per hit
10d6 (sneak attack) +20 (Craven) +5 (enhancement bonus) +10 (Dexterity)
average damage 72.5 per hit
average armor class of most CR20 creatures is in the late 40's.
the rogue is likely to hit 50% of the time with his first 2 swings and less than 25% with his second 2, the 3rd 2 most likely need a natural 20
other disabvantages that this rogue example has
they are screwed if they ever move more than 5 feet a round
they require special monsters to shine
they are so squishy that a monster can kill them in a round or 2 of full attacks
this example burns 8 feats out of 10, 80% of the allotted base feats that don't come from external resources. such as race and class. a huge investment for a non fighter. in 3.5. it may as well be all of your feats plus the human bonus feat.
they require excessive dm coddling to make sure there is a foe that they can hit
they require an ally present at all times that will help them flank and this isn't always guaranteed
they have to worry about how much they carry due to acrobatics checks having weight restrictions
they have to pay to enchant 2 weapons and will likely have weaker enchantments than the same guy who payed to enchant a single greatsword or falchion
this example uses a few 3.5. options that are neccessary for most rogues to keep up in combat.
you are screwed against oozes, incoporeal creatures, elementals, and many special unique monsters. including wizards of 3rd level or higher
you are crippled by a mere 2nd level spell called blur, many other similarly low level spells shut you down with similar ease. every smart wizard is going to record blur in thier spellbook as it literally makes them immune to rogues. blur badly needs to be slapped with the nerf bat.
and damage is pointless from levels 9-20+
all these are drawbacks of 2WF rogues. some of them are just plain rogue weaknesses. but they still apply.
It's not bad Neko, one thing I would specify though, is that in the case of finessible weapons that CAN be used with two hands the damage is x1.5, because I don't like to exclude the possibility of an Agile Melee combatant who uses two hands. The two-handed dancing dervish or the Ronin/Samurai duelist, or what-have you (I know the Elven Curve-blade fits for these archtypes, I believe that the Aldori or somesuch dueling sword is another example, but I haven't actually read it, so it might not be finessible)
i only wrote it as being usable with light weapons. rather than all finesse weapons. i can fix that with a followup feat.
Improved Weapon Celerity
Prerequsite; Dex 15+, weapon finesse, weapon celerity, B.A.B. +3
Benefit; your weapon celerity extends to all weapons with which weapon finesse apllies to. with any weapon that this feat applies to, even a light weapon, you can weild that weapon in 2 hands to gain 1.5. dexterity modifier to damage with those weapons. this feat also opens up the ability to use power attack with weapons to which weapon celerity applies to. including those opened up by this feat
special; you are no longer barred from using power attack with weapon celerity
Versatile Celerity
prerequisite weapon finesse, dex 15+ weapon celerity,
B.A.B. +2
benefit choose a number of weapons equal to your 3+ your intellegence modifier (minimum 1), you may apply the benefits of weapon finesse, weapon celerity and improved weapon celerity to those weapons. assuming you have any or all of them.
Don't you think that's an awefully big feat tax? Three feats to be able to do something that someone with a greatsword could do with out any? (Four if your not an elf and have to buy the weapon proficiency)It's not bad Neko, one thing I would specify though, is that in the case of finessible weapons that CAN be used with two hands the damage is x1.5, because I don't like to exclude the possibility of an Agile Melee combatant who uses two hands. The two-handed dancing dervish or the Ronin/Samurai duelist, or what-have you (I know the Elven Curve-blade fits for these archtypes, I believe that the Aldori or somesuch dueling sword is another example, but I haven't actually read it, so it might not be finessible)i only wrote it as being usable with light weapons. rather than all finesse weapons. i can fix that with a followup feat.
the feats i made are bigger in potency than the norm. they have extra additional things tacked on.
the improved weapon celerity not only opens up all finesseable weapons, it allows 1.5. dex with finesseable weapons and opens the door to power attack.
versatile celerity offers multiple expanded weapons to the list. (3+int modifier, min 1)
i like your idea better. i just made these feat taxes to cater to the GM's who dislike the idea. i need a way to get my dm to apporve them. and how else but making them a 3 feat chain. the followup feats were intended for fighters anyway.
i don't have msn. and i couldn't find you msn either.
i like your idea better. i just made these feat taxes to cater to the GM's who dislike the idea. i need a way to get my dm to apporve them. and how else but making them a 3 feat chain. the followup feats were intended for fighters anyway.
i don't have msn.
Ohhh, player perspective. Yeah, that's more difficult to get past. Some GM's are really stubborn about things like that.
** spoiler omitted **
i might try it. do you allow adaptions of 3.5. material? what is the point buy? and is msn the same as windows live?
i might try it. do you allow adaptions of 3.5. material?i like your idea better. i just made these feat taxes to cater to the GM's who dislike the idea. i need a way to get my dm to apporve them. and how else but making them a 3 feat chain. the followup feats were intended for fighters anyway.
i don't have msn.
Ohhh, player perspective. Yeah, that's more difficult to get past. Some GM's are really stubborn about things like that.
** spoiler omitted **In a sense. Probably best if we continued this discussion via email rather than clutter this thread though.
** spoiler omitted **
i sent you an email, my email address is luminieresolas@yahoo.com
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Weapon finesse isn't viable? Huh...that's news to me.It's ONLY viable for two-weapon fighting or Duelist rogues. That's it, two concepts employing one class.
So now EVERY feat has to be viable for EVERY class and EVERY build? Should I complain because wizards gain no benefit from say, rapid shot or weapon specialization? Hell, there are probably a dozen feats that cannot even be taken by any class other than fighter. Your argument falls flat in light of that fact alone.
Getting dexterity to damage as precision damage that does not double or go to 1.5 due to two handedness and isn't increased by a crit and requires you take two feats and have a minimum BAB and dexterity check will make strength COMPLETELY NONEXISTANT guys!
Also, you said you were going to leave this discussion, like, three pages ago, Ironic. Not a man of your word, it seems.
Well, i've been doing it that way for years, strength has not become non existent. in fact, we really didn't notice a change, except the dex guy was dealing a few more points of damage.
so many people are so afraid of just doing things.
Strength adds to melee because the Strength of your swing lends to its speed and power.
Dex with weapon finesse allows for PRECISION and maybe some speed with the lighter weapons. A well placed PRECISE blow will kill you just as dead as will a great big huge sword that rippeth they head off.
Never said realism. I just underatand what this thread REALLY is. Someone thought, "I'll make a dex fighter! That'll be cool!" Then some guy wtuth a great sword and power attack dealt more average damage. The dex fighter then said, "Waah! Waah! He's dealing more damage than me! That's not fair!"
In the first place, this is pure conjecture on your part, and pretty insulting conjecture as well. As likely someone sat down and said: "Hey, you know I'd love to do a swashbuckler concept in Pathfinder, it'd be really cool, but functionally it just doesn't seem to happen, how can I make it work?"
In the second place, they had a point: Precision DOES help when it comes to dishing out damage, and there is precedent in the system in three places: Sneak Attack class feature, Precise Strike class feature, and the Deadly Aim feat. We aren't re-writing the system from the ground up, we're making small changes to the system to make a concept that should be viable actually viable. For myself I do not think they should replace strength damage; strength is always going to be a factor when it comes to hitting people.
Ideas are:
Adapt the Deadly Aim feat so that it applies to finesse weapons.
Create a 'Sneak Attack' feat.
Create an Improved Weapon Finesse feat that adds dex bonus to damage in some way.
None of these ideas are functionally better than just being big and strong and swinging a two-handed weapon, but they do allow the nimble fencer to be as deadly as the big guy with the big axe. Both of these concepts are after all heroic concepts in their own way, some people prefer to be D'Artagnan to Conan, after all, and it's a concept that suits some campaign settings more than others.
Pfft. D'Artagnan? Porthos ftw.
Or any of the four, really! Point is, they are cool fighters with light weapons, not muscle-bound slabs with the biggest chopper they can lay their hands on.
um, no, I said I was going to quit arguing with you specifically. I believe that since I find my opinion as valid as you all find yours, I feel that I'm not out of line in stating them. But there's that whole hostility thing I was trying to steer away from. Seeing as you haven't actively called me a name, I gotta say, you're my favorite dissenter! Also, to those who implied that I wear my butt like a crown, I ask, how is it that me being open about my combative personality somehow makes my argument less valid? Unless you mean to say that I do, in fact, have a collection of rectums that I wear on my head, in which case, I must admit that I don't, though I am not opposed necessarily, except to say that hats aren't particularly my style, rectal hats or otherwise.
Seriously? Let's just re-cap here ...
Nah, we got it, we were just hoping you weren't that much of an asshat and gave you the benefit of the doubt.Joke's on you; I am.
You admitted to being an "asshat" yourself. Thus "self-admitted" ...
Apparently reading and logic aren't strong suits of his either.
Again - follow my suggestion here and simply ignore him. He can spew all the bile he wants, but if we ignore it then it's a waste of bandwidth for him.
:shrugs:
back to pondering dex-based fighters, etc.
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So now EVERY feat has to be viable for EVERY class and EVERY build? Should I complain because wizards gain no benefit from say, rapid shot or weapon specialization? Hell, there are probably a dozen feats that cannot even be taken by any class other than fighter. Your argument falls flat in light of that fact alone.Weapon finesse isn't viable? Huh...that's news to me.It's ONLY viable for two-weapon fighting or Duelist rogues. That's it, two concepts employing one class.I'm not trying to say it's non-viable, I'm trying to say there are two other concepts that we are trying to make work.
The Agile Fighter, and the Monk.
Creating a way to gain Dexterity instead of strength to damage helps those concepts work, which is a good thing.
(Also... I know I'm a weird GM, but if a wizard took Rapid Shot I would totally let him fire off an extra Magic Missile or Scorching Ray because of the feat, with the penalty on the scorching ray of course)
My wife plays an agile fighter to great success...she just uses a bow.
Now the problem I have with allowing Dex to increase damage--strength is set up in such a way that 99% of its benefit is the extra damage it does in combat. There are what, 2 skills tied to it (climb and swim IIRC)? It doesn't effect any saves...it affects encumbrance, but I can't remember the last game where encumbrance was actually tracked. If you put a feat into place that allows another ability score to increase damage, you're just encouraging a strength dump with no detriment whatsoever. Why would anybody (who planned on TWF) keep strength if they could use a feat and focus entirely on dex for the same benefit (or more if you consider AC, Ref save, 7+ skills, Init, etc)? Nobody would focus on strength anymore if that was the case making strength the dump stat for EVERY class/build that wasn't using a 2HW. Any change to weapon finesse unbalances the game IMHO.
You know what ... someone mentioned multiplying this dex-based damage w/the 1.5 thing if using the weapon 2-handed. I'm just not a fan of this for THAT damage boost we're suggesting, though.
I mean, half of the reason for this is the validate style choices, no? Ie: make D'Artangnan playable ... but his finesse weapons (ie: rapier, dueling sabre, etc) are all 1-handed in style. You just don't go 2-hand on a rapier and expect to be effective ... you know?
I'm also against it on game balance as well. Those 2-hander weapon guys are giving something up to get their higher damage output, and I'd hate to see the dex-monkey's muscle in on their territory (excuse the puns) via some mechanic that multiplies dex-based damage at all.
I'm fine w/it being usable only on targets that *have* some sort of anatomy only, and with it being able to be multiplied on a crit, like str damage, but no WAY should it matter if 2-handing the weapon.
I'd think that maybe even an exclusionary line would better suit that bonus damage honestly (ie: "you can not gain a x1.5 dex bonus to damage using a finessable weapon in 2-hands with this feat").
At the same time, deep-plunging a dagger, or short sword does make sense and *could* benefit from the str thing. Now, since we've mentioned "little people" and low str scores/penalties. -1 x 1.5 = -2. How the HELL does that make sense to 2-hand it and come up with even LESS damage? IMO, I'm changing the rules to reflect something on the line of "... x1.5 str bonus to damage, OR +1 point, whatever is most beneficial." At least that way the low str guy isn't getting screwed through that flat damage multiple/one size fits all mechanic that's presently in place.
In the end, though ... I'm thinking that *most* finesse weapons just won't benefit in 2-handed style ... not stylistically, anyway. I can't imagine a rapier fight and someone going 2-handed w/the rapier being anything OTHER than cut up/pierced up big time for exposing himself THAT badly and throwing his style and discipline aside to try and super-impale an opponent. Now, IF it hit ... I *guess* it might make for some more damage ... style-wise, it's massive exposure, though, and deserves death if it fails (ie: it's a very stupid idea given the fencing style overall).
Nobody would focus on strength anymore if that was the case making strength the dump stat for EVERY class/build that wasn't using a 2HW. Any change to weapon finesse unbalances the game...
I disagree.
IF this is what you're after (changing finesse to make dmg an option) we've discussed several things. Every one of which inherently limits/demands resources as much as it gives to the concept of the "agile fighter".
1) I do not believe anyone's forwarded a "replace str" entirely rule yet. At least not w/out being immediately reminded about the place of str in damage. At present I believe it's been "in addition to" that is the favorite, so dump str IF you want, but it'll still come back and affect your damage output in the end. (ie: -2 str and +4 dex = +2 dmg in total).
2) Most of us have also wanted to limit the damage targets that it applies to. Ie: no anatomy of note = no bonus dex damage.
3) Feat investments. We've run the gamut here from free Finesse by default (not my favorite mind you - specifically FOR balance purposes), to upwards of 3+ feats and several BAB points BEFORE you can manage such a feat ...
How is this unbalanced exactly? You're dedicating a LOT of feats to do things the str guy can do "out of the box" with NO investment beyond equipment selection.
Case in point a few fighters, humans, w/2-hander and "agile fighter" concepts in mind ...
2-Hander, the Smasha'!
He's got 3 feats at 1st level to start. He can get power attack, and cleave - basics. Then he's got +1 for utility spending - Improved Sunder, Improved Init, etc, etc, etc lot's of stuff here.
Finesser the Quick!
He's got Wpn Finesse, Improved Wpn Finesse, a Dex requesite to hit, can't *dump* str outright w/out affecting his damage output (and undermining his investment in the first place) and then there's the *possibly* 3rd feat rout to get this all done. Seriously ... he's got NONE of the options open to the 2-hander and all of his base feats are dedicated to simply making his play style viable.
Again - *how* is this unbalanced? It's full of trade-offs from level 1 that they will ALWAYS be trying to make up for later on ...
Jeez, ya leave for a few days and everything goes to heck.
I've taken my idea for Weapon Celerity and made it a fighting stance. I have the rules for this and a few other stances on my home computer, so that will be posted here later on tonight. In the meantime I'd like to state the obvious.
Until Paizo themselves makes a Dex to damage feat this all a moot point.
I have my houserules and people are invited to use them. If a player wants Dex for and their GM is saying no then they'll just have to suck it up and drive on. Not every GM is as reasonable as I am and I don't expect them to be.
Ultimately it really comes down to what your game allows. Arguing solves nothing. If you don't like a suggestion, move on.
I think I said this already, but one handed/light weapons already have it made with weapon finesse, as all melee classes except barbarian get some bonus to damage to TWF, and in most cases TWF builds will have a higher dex than strength so this make weapon finesse perfect for them. However, I agree that there is too many feats in the TWF build, so reducing this by making weapon finesse free is a great idea.
So I think we need is a feat for people who are using two hands on a single weapon to get some sort of bonus. However the problem arises for me, that there are only 3 weapons that are currently finesseable and can be used with two hands. Rapier, Elven Curve Blade, and Spiked chain.
But I am sure everyone does not agree.
I think I said this already, but one handed/light weapons already have it made with weapon finesse, as all melee classes except barbarian get some bonus to damage to TWF, and in most cases TWF builds will have a higher dex than strength so this make weapon finesse perfect for them. However, I agree that there is too many feats in the TWF build, so reducing this by making weapon finesse free is a great idea.
So I think we need is a feat for people who are using two hands on a single weapon to get some sort of bonus. However the problem arises for me, that there are only 3 weapons that are currently finesseable and can be used with two hands. Rapier, Elven Curve Blade, and Spiked chain.
But I am sure everyone does not agree.
Personally, I think getting rid of ITWF and GTWF and giving them for free would be a better change to TWF than removing weapon finnesse.
Personally, I think getting rid of ITWF and GTWF and giving them for free would be a better change to TWF than removing weapon finnesse.
Yes - I'm with you there. Just make it scale w/normal BAB and iteratives would work wonders, IMO, for improving this particular combat style.
Some folks in this thread are taking things too personally. Chill.
So to sum up my suggestions for feats are:
Deadly Aim (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by pinpointing a foe’s weak spot, at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all ranged attack rolls (or attack rolls made that are modified by dexterity instead of strength, see below), to gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls that hit with these attacks. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Special: You may apply this bonus damage to melee attacks made with Weapon Finesse, but not in combination with Power Attack.
Improved Weapon Finesse
Your well-aimed blows inflict additional damage.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse and either Combat Expertise or Deadly Aim.
Benefit: When attacking with a finesse weapon you add your dexterity modifier to your damage in addition to other effects and bonuses. This is precision damage, and will not effect creatures immune to critical hits or sneak attacks. Note that armour can restrict the maximum dexterity modifier you may apply.
Improved Combat Expertise
You avoid attacks with even greater alacrity.
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, BAB +4.
Benefit: Double the value of your bonus to AC from Combat Expertise, up to the limit of the maximum dexterity bonus permitted by your armour.
Enhanced Sneak Attack
You can sneak attack for extra damage.
Prerequisites: Sneak attack class feature, or Deadly Aim or Combat Expertise.
Benefit: Your sneak attack increases by an additional dice. If you do not have the sneak attack class feature, you gain sneak attack +1d6.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. You may not at any time use this feat to increase your total number of sneak attack dice to more than half your character level.
So now EVERY feat has to be viable for EVERY class and EVERY build? Should I complain because wizards gain no benefit from say, rapid shot or weapon specialization? Hell, there are probably a dozen feats that cannot even be taken by any class other than fighter. Your argument falls flat in light of that fact alone.Weapon finesse isn't viable? Huh...that's news to me.It's ONLY viable for two-weapon fighting or Duelist rogues. That's it, two concepts employing one class.I'm not trying to say it's non-viable, I'm trying to say there are two other concepts that we are trying to make work.
The Agile Fighter, and the Monk.
Creating a way to gain Dexterity instead of strength to damage helps those concepts work, which is a good thing.
It sounds like many people agree that Weapon Finesse is good for the Rogue and a Two Weapon Fighter. What I don't understand is why people think that the Dex Monk is not viable. If Weapon Finesse is good for a TWF, why not a Monk? Flurry of Blows is just TWF after all.
As for the Agile Fighter, that's what the Duelist class if for. It sounds like all of the bases are covered. Why is another feat needed to add Dex to damage.
It sounds like many people agree that Weapon Finesse is good for the Rogue and a Two Weapon Fighter. What I don't understand is why people think that the Dex Monk is not viable. If Weapon Finesse is good for a TWF, why not a Monk? Flurry of Blows is just TWF after all.
As for the Agile Fighter, that's what the Duelist class if for. It sounds like all of the bases are covered. Why is another feat needed to add Dex to damage.
The duelist is OK, but in spite of it's advantages it just doesn't quite make up the difference. It gives you better AC and damage, but it doesn't make up all the difference you lose, and the benefits are limited.
Dex monks work OK, in my experience, but again the problem is damage - Power Attack or for that matter Deadly Aim just don't cut it because of the monk's lower BAB. Adding dex mod to damage with a feat would certianly help the dex-based monk cut it. Having lots of dice isn't much help when you roll snake-eyes against a foe with DR.
Several things.
1: Monks are more MAD than two weapon fighters, requiring 4 good stats instead of 3. This feat would give them a hope of actually contributing more to a party than standing around not getting targetted by the bad guys because he can't hurt them and is more difficult to hurt.
So a Monk needs good Str, Wis and a decent Dex and Con. A Weapon Finesse Monk needs Dex, Wis and a decent Str and Con. Decent being no less than 10.
A Two Weapon Fighter needs Str, Dex and a decent Con. A Two Weapon Finesse Fighter will need Dex, Str and a decent Con. Unlike the Monk, the fighter's short swords will always do just 1d6 whereas the Monk's weapons will eventually do 2d10. Also, most Fighters will have at least a 10 Wis (if not more) just for the Will save and bonus to skills.
2: The Duelist prestige class, at least in my mind, does not stack up to snuff. 9 times out of 10 straight fighter will do better, and that's a problem. The two should be equal choices.
I think this is the part where we differ.
If someone wants to create a Combat Monster that only drools and hits things with a large chunk of metal, then I allow him to do more damage.
If you make a Finesse Fighter, then you won't do as much damage, but you will be able to jump around and do a lot of other cool and interesting things. Plus, Duelists get all the ladies (after the Bard that is).
This is a Role-Playing game. Being able to do all kinds of nifty things outside of combat (or even in combat) will balance out doing a little less damage during combat.
A dex monk is pretty depressing. It does very little damage, has generally garbage CMB (which monks need), and needs a lot more feats.
As for duelist, if you want to houserule other bonuses, go for it. Without houseruling, the duelist gets no more ladies then the fighter (zero duelist abilities use charisma, so it's still a dump), nor does it get any bonuses to acrobatics to jump around a lot or do "other cool things" that a straight fighter couldn't.
People keep saying strength will become worthless, and yet everyone here who has playtested these feats say it hasn't. Let's see the advantages of both assuming the feat
Dex:
Applies to initiative
Applies to dodge AC
Allows for better one had or two weapon fighting
Strength:
1.5 or 2x to damage rather then just one
Not precision damage
Pre-requisites for power attack
Doesn't require any feats
Allows for better two hand fighting
All the dex to damage feat does is allow finesse characters to catch up. Finesse is currently good for rogues because rogues already have a second means of damage doing in sneak attack. Nobody else has that. Duelist especially suffers because he doesn't have TWF.
It sounds like many people agree that Weapon Finesse is good for the Rogue and a Two Weapon Fighter. What I don't understand is why people think that the Dex Monk is not viable. If Weapon Finesse is good for a TWF, why not a Monk? Flurry of Blows is just TWF after all.
As for the Agile Fighter, that's what the Duelist class if for. It sounds like all of the bases are covered. Why is another feat needed to add Dex to damage.
The duelist is OK, but in spite of it's advantages it just doesn't quite make up the difference. It gives you better AC and damage, but it doesn't make up all the difference you lose, and the benefits are limited.
Dex monks work OK, in my experience, but again the problem is damage - Power Attack or for that matter Deadly Aim just don't cut it because of the monk's lower BAB. Adding dex mod to damage with a feat would certianly help the dex-based monk cut it. Having lots of dice isn't much help when you roll snake-eyes against a foe with DR.
So the Duelist does almost as much damage, but not quite. The Dex Monks are OK, but doesn't do a lot of damage. Again, I am not seeing the problem. They shouldn't be doing as much damage. They have a whole lot of other abilities that help them out.
Rolling snake-eyes doesn't cut it vs. DR, but rolling two 10s sure helps a lot! Certainly a lot more than rolling a 6 with a short sword. If you only had one roll for damage I would agree with you, but the fact that you are going to be rolling damage dice a LOT more than makes up for the possibility of a low roll.
A dex monk is pretty depressing. It does very little damage, has generally garbage CMB (which monks need), and needs a lot more feats.
I made an Elven Dex Monk with core rules and he seems fine to me. He doesn't do as much damage as a Two-handed Fighter, but again, he shouldn't be. CMB is garbage? It's +20 at 20th level just like the Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, and Barbarian. Take the Agile Maneuvers feat and you are good to go. I realize you are now taking two feats, but you are now able to dump Str (mostly) it should cost you something.
As for duelist, if you want to houserule other bonuses, go for it. Without houseruling, the duelist gets no more ladies then the fighter (zero duelist abilities use charisma, so it's still a dump), nor does it get any bonuses to acrobatics to jump around a lot or do "other cool things" that a straight fighter couldn't.
Enhanced Mobility, Grace, Acrobatic Charge, and Acrobatics as a Class Skill... Sounds like jumping around to me. Add in all the other abilities (Improved Reaction, Parry and Riposte are all good abilities) with Precise Strike to help make up damage and it adds up pretty well. Keep in mind that Pazio intentionally made Prestige Classes a little less attractive than in the past.
The part about the ladies was a joke. Sorry the humor didn't translate.
People keep saying strength will become worthless, and yet everyone here who has playtested these feats say it hasn't. Let's see the advantages of both assuming the feat
Dex:
Applies to initiative
Applies to dodge AC
Allows for better one had or two weapon fightingStrength:
1.5 or 2x to damage rather then just one
Not precision damage
Pre-requisites for power attack
Doesn't require any feats
Allows for better two hand fightingAll the dex to damage feat does is allow finesse characters to catch up. Finesse is currently good for rogues because rogues already have a second means of damage doing in sneak attack. Nobody else has that. Duelist especially suffers because he doesn't have TWF.
I am not sure which feats you are assuming, but if we just add Weapon Finesse and a feat for Dex to do damage. I see the list like this.
Dex:
+ to initiative
+ to AC
+ to hit melee
+ to hit ranged
+ to damage
+ to 7 skills
Str:
+ to 2 skills
encumbrance(?)
So really you only need just enough Str to carry your stuff. If you want the Power Attack feat you need a 13 Str. Wow, that's tough. This cost two feats.
Let's flip it around. What two feats will allow a Str Fighter to drop his Dex to 13? What will raise his Initative, Armor Class, and Ranged Attack by, lets say, 5 points? We will just call the skills even. Although the Str Fighter is dumping 7 to the Dex Fighter's 2.
So the Duelist does almost as much damage, but not quite. The Dex Monks are OK, but doesn't do a lot of damage. Again, I am not seeing the problem. They shouldn't be doing as much damage. They have a whole lot of other abilities that help them out.
You misunderstand me, the duelist does not do anything like the damage of, say a TWF or two-handed fighter. He does get better mobility and an AC advantage, which help him as well. Also, he needs good int to make the most of his abilities. So he needs reasonable strength, constitution, intelligence and maybe charisma as well as good dex.
Rolling snake-eyes doesn't cut it vs. DR, but rolling two 10s sure helps a lot! Certainly a lot more than rolling a 6 with a short sword. If you only had one roll for damage I would agree with you, but the fact that you are going to be rolling damage dice a LOT more than makes up for the possibility of a low roll.
True, but the average is not wild. A 20th level monk is doing 2d10, average 11. A 20th level fighter can be dishing out a lot more than that with the same chance to hit - with a greatsword and power attack, you are looking at an average of 25 damage per hit before you factor in strength and most importantly bonus magical damage. A +5 greatsword with +2d6 damage from one source or another is 37 per hit, with a better chance to hit than the monk (yes, you can get an amulet of mighty fists ... but they don't get very good and they cost the earth). Now on a target with DR20, your fighter is still hurting it and your monk ... isn't, regardless of how many hits he gets.
Now if your dex-based monk could add in some benefit from that dex, at level 20 he could increase his average respectably. It won't catch him up to the fighter, but can certainly help him along.
The duelist is essentially a "finesse fighter" but wait - can't use hvy armor (ie: always taking a hit on AC - unless INT is pumped WAY up there. How many fighter's are running around w/a +10 Int mod mind you?).
They CAN'T use 2-wpn fighting AND gain ANY class abilities (wtf?!?!?!? Rapier and Main-Gauche anyone?).
They CAN'T use shields ... not even a buckler (ie: where swashBUCKLER's get their titles from in the first place), and gain any of their PrC bits.
So, loss of hvy armor - check. loss of shields - check. loss of 2-wpns - check.
What the hell *do* they get? Precision damage in the amount of +1/class level ... really? Oh ... my. And THAT is also negated if using a shield, hvy (or medium) armor, or a wpn in the off hand ... yeah. Color me less than impressed.
The only *real* way to make it work is to build a freakin' STRONG fighter in the first place and just pick up wpn finesse as a "throw away" feat, so you can add the Duelist dmg to the str dmg in all cases where it would/could apply. Hell ... with the PF fighter, you can even end up treating some of the heavier armors (med mostly) as Light after you factor in the move bonus and the check penalties in the end.
All of the other abilities are pretty much crap.
Improved Reaction - one, only after 2 times this thing equates to a single feat. Sure, it *can* stack w/the feat, but so what? How does 2 1/2 feats compare? Ans: not very well at all.
Parry - this is a neat option, but you know what? This was the default for EVERYONE in 2e in the first place. Again, color me less than impressed. It's also limited to only 1 parry, period regardless of the # of attacks you have.
Enhanced mobility - just what a sub-par damage dealer wants anyway, right? More AC and a bigger trade off for NOT being able to score damage to save his life. This one, at least, matches up 1:1 with an existing feat.
Combat reflexes ... seriously? 6th level BEFORE you can qualify to enter the PrC, so 7th to hit it at level 1, and 3 more before you get to this tremendous advantage? So ... by 11th level as the 'swift, lightly armored' fighting concept ... you FINALLY qualify for Combat Reflexes??? Really? REALLY!?!?!
Grace - Cmb Ref is then paired up for it's lame excuse of a benefit (11th level ... cripes!) with this. An additional +2 boost on the ONLY GOOD save the PrC has ... ??? Seriously? It's *already* a good save ... *shakes head incredulously*
Riposte - actually ... this is flavorful, useful, and helps out the PrC (first thing on it's list, really). It's also unique to the class ... at least in how it plays out. There are 3.x feats that allow more or less the same thing, though the order and particulars differ slightly.
Acrobatic Charge - wow .... 13th level and running over mucky ground is the best you got, eh?
Elaborate Defense - Ok, so ... toss a bone to the AC starved guy, right? No - not quite. Not without severely restricting and hampering the already hampered concept some more. +1 to AC/3 duelist levels ... consider this. AND you MUST fight defensively, or be in total defense to do this. In other words, you take penalties to hit (but can't be something like say Combat Expertise in play as that's not "fighting defensively" as the maneuver), or forgo the ability to hit ANYTHING in the first place (total defense) to get AT BEST a +3 to your AC .... yeah. I'll just let that alone to stew a while (mind you, we're at level 17 or so by now assuming 7th level was an immediate leap into the class and you stuck with this sub-par PrC to it's end).
Deflect Arrows - sure, you can do it w/a weapon, and w/out the preceeding feats ... but shouldn't this be an option anyway for armed types as well as unarmed types? It's just a feat ...
No Retreat - I'll grant this one as useful. It lets you take an AoO when you *should* be denied one. It's pretty good, and unique to the class, so thumbs up here.
Crippling Critical - it's a capstone, so it's actually pretty cool. Pales compared to most base class capstones (especially the Fighter) but it's ok by comparison. Still ... it has 1 of 3 effects, each of which is dependent upon a crit to be confirmed first (compare it to the fighter w/auto-confirmed crits, a higher crit multiplier, and an inability to EVER be disarmed - it's 3 vs. 1 effects here = weak sauce comparitively speaking).
So, honestly, there's only 3 features in the whole of the class build that are worth a damn. None of them do any of that "extra stuff" you mention about being cool outside of combat. IMO, this would suggest that in a revision, adding such features to the class could very well help out significantly as, currently, they are lacking and sorely missed.
:shrugs:
Duelist PrC is weak as hell ... for what it claims to be, it falls far too short.
Just a quick post for Dabbler - they NEVER get an AC "advantage" over the straight fighters. EVER.
They will NOT have the ability points or $ to invest it properly *to* get their "advantage" in the first place. It's a trap!
@Lord Twig: I agree, Dex does more than Str, BUT I'm also a proponent of 3 feats to make this happen (ie: let Dex sub for Str in combat stats - exception being str multiplier for 2-handing), though. I think there *should* be a cost for messing with the system's default assumptions and design (ie: Str is melee king). However, I'd like to see a set up where 3 feats (human) taken at 1st level will allow this to happen. Or, 3 feats total (non-human) will let a full on dex for str swap-a-roo take place.
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Okay, It seems that many people still think that you have to do 40 points of damage a hit to be viable. Even if you only hit 1 in every 3 times.
So here is my finesse based FIGHTER who overall out damages most str based fighters of his level, due to the fact he hits almost EVERY time.
Here is the build:
Cristian Aldori
Fighter 8
Str 14
Dex 19
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 10
FC: Fighter
Feats: Exotic Wpn Prof: Aldori Dueling Sword
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus: ADS
Agile Maneuvers
Combat Expertise
Wpn Specialization
Improved Feint (found later I should have taken Dodge)
Lunge
Vital Strike
Greater Weapon Focus- Aldori Dueling sword
Traits: Reactionary and Suspicious
Major Equipment: Breast Plate +1
Aldori Dueling Sword +2
Cloak of Resistance +2
Ring of Protection +1
Current AC: 22 (7 armor, 4 dex, 1 deflection)
Aldori Dueling Sword: +17/+12 1d8+8
When using Lunge, Vital Strike, and Combat Expertise: 10ft reach +15 2d8+8 AC 22
Saves: Fort +10 Ref +8 Will +4 (+2 vs Fear)
So My AC is only two to three points lower than the heavy armor fighters, and my damage output is actually HIGHER since I hit much more often, even if I don't do as much per hit.
@Tim's Build: Now this is odd ... I'd expect the hvy fighters to just hit as often as you AND have more combat options since I'd figure they would reverse the Dex and Str placement (all else being equal), so they're getting the same "to hit" bonus you are, and then out-damaging the hell out of you (especially if they're using PA vs. CE w/that lunge scenario).
I don't see how (save for bad build choices) they *would* be hitting less often.
Going w/a 2-handed sword guy, for instance, all abilities are the same (wash out on "to hit" and stat arrays arranged equally - let's just say).
This guy would have the *same* to hit mods as you w/the feats invested to Greater WF, and would also have the +1 to wpn training (assuming it's in the dueling sword in the same way the 2-handed sword would/should be). So, there *is* no net gain here. If anything, the 2-handed guy is ahead on account of his greater str bonus to damage.
Now - let's *really* let the 2-hander pull away: he save feats. Here are the feats this guy doesn't need at ALL to be effective (likely AS effective if not MORE effective than Mr. Finesse).
*EWP - Aldori Dueling Sword (his selection is covered by base proficiencies.
*Wpn Finesse - his "to hit" is better from Str, so why bother with this in his build?
*Agile Maneuvers - Again - his maneuver bonus is better by default here w/no feat investment.
I'll leave the other feats in place as they're as useful to his build as yours (again assuming only str/dex swapping here).
This guy actually has 3 more feats than you to invest in being "more effective" and I'd suggest the following 3 that would fully leave your Finesse guy in the dust struggling to catch up.
1) Power Attack - at his level, he can take that -2 "to hit" you're granting to negate your AC penalty, take the AC penalty (w/lunge) and likely still have a better overall AC w/the penalty in play. His boon? He'll trade the 2 points in to hit (17 vs. 15) to get +6 to his damage (where you get no bonus to damage at all as it's been spent to maintain a lower AC than his w/the same penalty applied to his "to hit" as yours).
2) Cleave - so he can get some nasty swipes in on 2 or more guys at a time.
3) Great Cleave - so he can get some nasty swipes in on EVERYONE near enough to be hit w/his lunge and such. It's a -4 AC to him for this, but it's pretty cool, and he can probably soak that AC hit up. He's also doing this at a +15 to hit everyone in range ... not bad at all.
As I see it, he's doing the SAME to hit as you (ie: not hitting less than you - unless is just luck of the die), AND he's out-damaging you by FAR!
This guy's going +17/+12 to hit with 2d6+12 {I only count 1d8+7 on your build, btw ... where's the extra 1 coming from?}. Same probability, AND more damage.
If he takes the same -2 to hit as you do, his AC is still higher, and he's going at +15/+10 for 2d6+18 damage (6 from the Power Attack at -2 and the 2-handed bonus it grants).
Sorry man ... strong 2-handed guy wins out ... by a LOT.