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i'd personally like to see something close to this happen. do you guys think that a feat that doesn't break the game and improve on finesse can be made? i'd really like to see it. maybe if we can get something good enough, they'll add it in a later book.
aside from just crunching the numbers, can you see anything that could be changed or do you think it's close enough as is? i don't think that the idea of allowing finesse to apply to all weapons is a good idea. i think that might be too over powered.
i'd personally like to see something close to this happen. do you guys think that a feat that doesn't break the game and improve on finesse can be made? i'd really like to see it. maybe if we can get something good enough, they'll add it in a later book.
aside from just crunching the numbers, can you see anything that could be changed or do you think it's close enough as is? i don't think that the idea of allowing finesse to apply to all weapons is a good idea. i think that might be too over powered.
Where/how/why would it be overpowered?
Crit-ranges? The better ones already *are* finesse-weapons, no?
Base weapon damage? Most damage comes from outside of the base die anyway, especially the higher up you go in level.
Better Crit multipliers? I ... suppose this *could* be true.
Honestly ... I'm kind of out. I guess crit-multipliers become the one point I can say sticks out a bit, and, IMO, crits are crits for a reason - they're pretty exceptional. Let 'em happen. :shrugs:
Assuming you *want* to go dex-based in your build, if you let it work on all wpns (vs. finesse only), then you're STILL needing the 3 or more feats up front to MAKE the style work for you in the first place (ie: -3 feats compared to other builds at least).
Now, using the "bigger weapons" you can use your dex in place of str ... when it comes for damage, you get NO str boons beyond your base str (since this is the preferred option put forth thus far), even if you're Mr. Dex 2-handing the great sword of your father. w/out the str to back it, you can add your straight dex, but the str-built guy will be adding his str x1.5, AND he's got 3 more feats than you to make this happen.
The only edge Mr. Dex has over the str one is that he'll have a better AC and Ref save (init, too likely ... but str guy could use one of his "extra" feats to get improved init, too). So, he's better protected/defended compared to the str build, but he's trading off his damage to get to this point ... seems a fair trade that would/could fit the concept well.
I'm not sure, though ... I don't look at base weapon stats as all *that* powerful in determining damage output.
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no, i was responding to Speaking in Dreams comment about "bigger weapons". i don't like to think about a skinny little bean pole of a race carrying around d12 weapon with an x3 crit, and then giving him his dex to hit and damage. next thing you'll see is an army of goblins wielding large sized greataxes with the finesse feats wade through town. *shudder*
so from how people reacted i have decided to take the time to do just as they ask since one of my few talents is basic numbers and crunch.
I was originally planning to build 1,5,10,15,and 20th level versions of each anyways, and this will just be more fun. I can also check how they would do with lower amounts of gear, I have played under many GM's I myself sadly admit to being a monty haul gm, I am trying to change that a bit as I enjoy throwing a challenge to my players.
Anyways I probably won't be able to get anything done till I am off of work tomorrow.
for the current point if we remove the magic items in general this is easy to calculate
montoya is going to have a 23 dex instead of his impressive 34. so a +6 to attack half of what he had, he losses the +5 to attack but we will go with master work so he only losses 4 of that so attack drops by 10 so far
He losses two attacks one from speeding, the other from boots of speed. he also loses the +1 to hit from haste, putting him at a +25 to hit at his highest, if he is putting in the stuff into power attack, of course with a percent to hit of 38-25=13*5=75% miss chance holy crap so he hits with his best attack 25% of the time so he probably won't use any power attack, granting him back 30% 55% chance to hit following my accuracy rule he will only hit with his first attack second has a 30% rate, third 5% and fourth has a 5%, his crit range is 15-20 so 20% chance but he would only hit on a nat 20 on his later attacks since it would have to be the third that would crit it really is only the 5% that matters in this case. So he doesn't crit. He deals damage of 1d6+20 but thanks to greater vital strike that is increased to 4d6+38 averaging 52 damage in the first round, after which he doesn't have the ac to hope to dodge the dragons claws and bite, and tail and wings, his HP is only 150 so the dragon makes short work of him without his magical gear. By the way gear was bought with the amount of gold the player should have at level 20 although I don't think I have ever given my party enough gold to reach the numbers they gave me, well except it turned into a spelljammer game once they took the mindflayers flying ship and its spell helm to go and kill the gnome king (a former member of the party who using psionics and a shrewd mind, concured most of the continent)
I am going out on a limb here and guessing with masterwork cap for gear Sven, and Marcus are in the same boat, they just don't have the accuracy to get in the hits nor the defense or HP to survive the happy go lucky red dragon.
Tomorrow when I get back from work I will build and test each of them at level 1, 5, 10, and 15th level with the gear that they should have, against monster of equal CR to their level.
Also I heard mention of a rouge two weapon build, I can design that as well although I have more experience building fighters than rouges, (although my normal class is Wizard, and thanks to pathfinder I got myself hooked on playing the bard a little as well.)
If there are any other request post them up I will read through and get crunching away.
maybe it's not overpowered at all. maybe i'm just terrified of the thought of an elf walking around with a greataxe that can use his dex to damage. like i said before, i'm not a number cruncher. i'm just throwing my ideas and opinions out there and seeing if they help.
I am!
any ways last post of the night, a great axe being used with dex instills fear in my heart, but then I turn my brain back on and start looking it over.
First off price well great axe is two handed, lets use fighter so that we can just say he can use the great axe.
He spends three of his 21 feats to get himself his dex for all weapons now then like any crazy person he takes 14 str for swimming climbing and carrying heavy stuff like his friends dead body like in the old dragon warrior games, or more likely the loot, as we all know it is the beat sticks job to carry such things.
Now then in most cases and still in this one this is a hefty cost to be weapon effective and depending on what level it might not have been optimal for armoring and what not. But for now lets ignore armor and magical shinnies. We have a great axe average damage 6.5 getting a bonus from his dexterity, now then since this was his plan to be dex man we can conclude he has somewhere around a 16 dex to start with and this will be where most of his boosts go, so he dishes out at base 9.5 damage no different then if he had been built towards str in the beginning the difference is that he might have a better ac than his strong man counter part, and even if not he might have better initiative, or reflex, on the other hand, lets say he is letting armor cap his dex. well in total he can get mythral full plate with armor mastery of +4 so +7 dex mod before he has to decide on different armor
an optimizing fighter of str will try for this level of DEX as well
now then we have two equally dex monkeyed fighters for the moment before we shift around armors for the superior dex monkey to use his full dex, which may mean even giving up armor and buying bracers. but until that point the str monster can have an unhindered str score and push it towards the limit, the dex monkey has to pay a price of giving up certain shiny levels of armor for the same skys the limit offer. he is also paying three feats, while I will say this my brain says we should make a min str requirement for being able to use two handed weapon with dex (they are heavy usually) I don't see it as game breaking, although they do break my heart, I still remember learning how to fence from my father, and I can say that I always pictured weapon finesse as that fighting style, so it is hard for me to picture a man with a great axe doing such a thing.
So from my beliefs set I have to say no thank you to allowing non weapon finesse weapons in on this, as a crunch side I don't see too much issue with the numbers it sounds like Dex characters would have to pay a fair price for it, and in the end economics defines a fair deal as an agreement where both parties think they have gotten the best of it. The dex monkeys think they can use big toys, the str monsters get to say I have spare feats to spend, and I get to give out free tickets to the gun show.
I can do some hard core crunching and looking over circumstantial tomorrow which is what this will really fall to in the long run
maybe it's not overpowered at all. maybe i'm just terrified of the thought of an elf walking around with a greataxe that can use his dex to damage. like i said before, i'm not a number cruncher. i'm just throwing my ideas and opinions out there and seeing if they help.
That's why I prefer my system where instead of getting dex-and-a-half on single weapons you just add dex damage to finesse weapons, and strength still counts.
Your goblin has to use a finesse weapon (that's base damage down to 1d4 for most of them) and his -2 for Str 6 still counts, it's just modified to +2 for his 18 dex. So instead of 1d4-2 he's doing 1d4+2 ... not so bad.
Now compare the strength fighter with a 2-handed weapon vs the fencer with his rapier:
Strength guy is doing 2d6+(Str-and-a-half) as base.
Dexterity guy is doing 1d6+Str+Dex as base.
So if they have 18 Str and 14 Dex and 14 Str and 18 dex ...
Strength guy is doing 2d6+6 as base.
Dexterity guy is doing 1d6+6 as base.
Not exactly broken is it? However high you push the primary stat, the strength guy gets more out of it.
That's why I prefer my system where instead of getting dex-and-a-half on single weapons you just add dex damage to finesse weapons, and strength still counts.
Your goblin has to use a finesse weapon (that's base damage down to 1d4 for most of them) and his -2 for Str 6 still counts, it's just modified to +2 for his 18 dex. So instead of 1d4-2 he's doing 1d4+2 ... not so bad.
Now compare the strength fighter with a 2-handed weapon vs the fencer with his rapier:
Strength guy is doing 2d6+(Str-and-a-half) as base.
Dexterity guy is doing 1d6+Str+Dex as base.
So if they have 18 Str and 14 Dex and 14 Str and 18 dex ...
Strength guy is doing 2d6+6 as base.
Dexterity guy is doing 1d6+6 as base.
Not exactly broken is it? However high you push the primary stat, the strength guy gets more out of it.
Excellent point, actually. You've sold me on/solidified me on maintaining this as a "finesse" exclusive sort of boon to that weapon class/group/whatever only.
Now ... I could also see adding a new feat to let 1 specific non-finesse weapon be wielded like a finesse weapon, though. It would be weapon specific and isolated in application.
Possibly, but then there are a few weapons - like the elven curveblade - that are two-handed and finesse weapons (IMHO, this category should include the katana which would be functionally the same as the elven curveblade, but that's just me) ... how about this?
Two-handed Control
You can wield a weapon that is normally one-handed with greater control as a two-handed weapon.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, weapon proficiency with the weapon chosen.
Benefit: Select one weapon you can use as a one-handed weapon. You may use this weapon two-handed as a finesse weapon. You gain the other advantages of using a two handed weapon and those of wielding it as finesse weapon.
maybe it's not overpowered at all. maybe i'm just terrified of the thought of an elf walking around with a greataxe that can use his dex to damage. like i said before, i'm not a number cruncher. i'm just throwing my ideas and opinions out there and seeing if they help.That's why I prefer my system where instead of getting dex-and-a-half on single weapons you just add dex damage to finesse weapons, and strength still counts.
Your goblin has to use a finesse weapon (that's base damage down to 1d4 for most of them) and his -2 for Str 6 still counts, it's just modified to +2 for his 18 dex. So instead of 1d4-2 he's doing 1d4+2 ... not so bad.
Now compare the strength fighter with a 2-handed weapon vs the fencer with his rapier:
Strength guy is doing 2d6+(Str-and-a-half) as base.
Dexterity guy is doing 1d6+Str+Dex as base.
So if they have 18 Str and 14 Dex and 14 Str and 18 dex ...
Strength guy is doing 2d6+6 as base.
Dexterity guy is doing 1d6+6 as base.
Not exactly broken is it? However high you push the primary stat, the strength guy gets more out of it.
Now compare that str and 1/2 fighter against an elven curve blade wielder who also has an 18 str and 14 dex and also getting str 1/2 + dex. 2d6+6 vs 1d10+8. Now give him stat boosting items for both stats that he can increase his damage more for cheaper. The problem with this feat is that it is way too easy to misuse, and that goblin that replaces a -2 with a +2 is getting a swing of +4. That is way too much for 1 feat IMO, and twice as good for him as other damage increasing feats.
That is why I proposed the feat that I did. You include negative str mods but don't include positive ones. This feat still makes the swing too high for a 18 dex 10 str character, but its not that bad, and at least they didn't use their str to increase their dex with point buy.
1d10+8 = 13-1/2, 2d6+6 = 13, yes he has a slight advantage, for an extra feat (Exotic Weapon proficiency) for a total of four feats spent to achieve this. As for the stat-boosting items, we've already covered that base - it's way cheaper to get one item to boost one stat by a lot than an item (and remember kids, in Pathfinder it's belts only for physical stats!) that boosts two stats by a little.
Belt of Giant Strength
Slot belt; Weight 1 lb.; Price 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6)
Belt of Physical Might
Slot belt; Weight 1 lb.; Price 10,000 gp (+2), 40,000 gp (+4), 90,000 gp (+6)
(this is actually the cheapest way to boost two physical stats in Pathfinder)
So if we get a Belt of Physical Might that boost Dex and Str at +4 for the weapon finesser, then we can afford a +6 Belt of Giant Strength for the strength-fighter, and some loose change.
That gives the strength fighter Str 24 (+7 mod), the finesser Str 22 (+6 mod) and Dex 18 (+4 mod), giving them total final damage of 1d10+13 (average 18-1/2) for the finesser and 2d6+10 (average 17) for the strength fighter.
So for an investment of FOUR FEATS (Weapon Finesse, either Combat Expertise or Deadly Aim, Improved Weapon Finesse and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (elven curveblade)) the finesser is dishing out 1-1/2 extra points of damage. What were you trying to demonstrate, Caineach - that the feats were broken because they really were not worth it? Because they sure as hell aren't broken by being overpowered.
1d10+8 = 13-1/2, 2d6+6 = 13, yes he has a slight advantage, for an extra feat (Exotic Weapon proficiency) for a total of four feats spent to achieve this. As for the stat-boosting items, we've already covered that base - it's way cheaper to get one item to boost one stat by a lot than an item (and remember kids, in Pathfinder it's belts only for physical stats!) that boosts two stats by a little.
Belt of Giant Strength
Slot belt; Weight 1 lb.; Price 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6)Belt of Physical Might
Slot belt; Weight 1 lb.; Price 10,000 gp (+2), 40,000 gp (+4), 90,000 gp (+6)
(this is actually the cheapest way to boost two physical stats in Pathfinder)So if we get a Belt of Physical Might that boost Dex and Str at +4 for the weapon finesser, then we can afford a +6 Belt of Giant Strength for the strength-fighter, and some loose change.
That gives the strength fighter Str 24 (+7 mod), the finesser Str 22 (+6 mod) and Dex 18 (+4 mod), giving them total final damage of 1d10+13 (average 18-1/2) for the fineser and 2d6+10 (average 17) for the strength fighter.
So for an investment of FOUR FEATS (Weapon Finesse, either Combat Expertise or Deadly Aim, Improved Weapon Finesse and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (elven curveblade)) the finesser is dishing out 1-1/2 extra points of damage. What were you trying to demonstrate, Caineach - that the feats were broken because they really were not worth it? Because they sure as hell aren't broken by being overpowered.
This feat allows you to outdamage any existing THF build currently out there with a combined dex and str based character, at the cost of 3 feats. I am not counting ECB, since that is already an optimal choice for THF. THF builds are the least feat intensive combat build, so this ins't really a problem. This feat also increases the damage output of the current damage kings, high str TWFs. Rapier and a light shield will become even better, as will double kukris.
Your now comparing straight bonuses and not expected damage. Elven Curve blade also has a higher crit mod. At those bonuses, the ECB is doing more damage on average because of crits. Power attack makes it even higher. The breaking point is somewhere arround 18 damage keen, and 33 damage not, if you have the exact same bonus to damage. With the +3 that you are getting for this, you shift that negative, so the ECB is always coming out ahead.
Assuming a 75% hit chance and those numbers, Formula = damage*%hit + crit%*damage*%hit
ECB | THF
15.9 | 14.0 No keen no power attack (1.9 delta)
23.7 | 21.5 Keen no power attack (2.3 delta)
18.0 | 15.3 no keen +9 Power attack (2.7 delta)
26.8 | 23.4 Keen +9 power attack (3.4 delta)
The difference only grows the more power attack damage you add, 3.6 for +12, 3.9 for +15. Any extra damage you get that multiplies on a crit, like Paladin smiting or Fighter training or spec increase the difference more.
Granted, but it's a feat intensive path you are on, and the return is not huge ... that many feats for an expected few points of damage on average? The other question is, what is the THF doing with those feats? He can go for all the critical feats to even the playing field, for example, or he can go for greater versatility.
The 'typical' finesse build uses rapier, and I think that a rapier build at high level with duelist PrC might be able to out-damage the elven curve-blade ... maybe, I'd have to crunch a lot of numbers, but it's really just keeping you up with the grunts.
The way I look at it, if you can do a power build like this designed to wring the maximum out of it all, and it's only out hitting the THF by a few points on average, the feat series isn't broken.
Granted, but it's a feat intensive path you are on, and the return is not huge ... that many feats for an expected few points of damage on average? The other question is, what is the THF doing with those feats? He can go for all the critical feats to even the playing field, for example, or he can go for greater versatility.
The 'typical' finesse build uses rapier, and I think that a rapier build at high level with duelist PrC might be able to out-damage the elven curve-blade ... maybe, I'd have to crunch a lot of numbers, but it's really just keeping you up with the grunts.
The way I look at it, if you can do a power build like this designed to wring the maximum out of it all, and it's only out hitting the THF by a few points on average, the feat series isn't broken.
I'm sorry, but this is fewer feats than TWF and it stacks with TWF, which already beats out THF. Most people I have ever seen make characters will sacrifice feats for damage on brutes before they spend it on anything else. All I see this feat doing is creating a new build to max damage that has the added bennefit of having a high dex, one of the best stats as it is.
I'm sorry, but this is fewer feats than TWF and it stacks with TWF, which already beats out THF. Most people I have ever seen make characters will sacrifice feats for damage on brutes before they spend it on anything else. All I see this feat doing is creating a new build to max damage that has the added bennefit of having a high dex, one of the best stats as it is.
The TWF angle is one I've been pondering. Thing is, to get your dex that high to get Greater TWF, you are going to have a lower strength. This is why TWF is not usually as good in practice as in theory. That said, I have been contemplating amending the text of the feat to apply it to one weapon only, and have a second feat to add half dex-mod to a second weapon, but I haven't crunched the numbers yet.
If it ends up out damaging the THF fighter by a little ... well, that's not a huge problem because you are suffering a penalty to hit in return. If it's by a lot, it needs further amendments I will agree. At the end of the day I'm committed to having the precision and strength damage stack. Thus far, it works OK. How it will work with TWF, though ... that's a different matter.
sorry it took me so long to return sadly it looks like my building of the lower level is probably not as needed anymore as when I first was working on it, most of the arguments from then seem to have defused, sehr gut.
Also why did I not think of this Formula = damage*%hit + crit%*damage*%hit (hangs head in shame) would have made my calculations a lot more accurate and interesting.
Now then if I understand the new conversation it is looking like is over two weapon fighting combined with the new generated feat that we have been discussing, this is the one that provides half dex onto your damage stat.
so let me think well I built the monk Marcus with this feat setup originally and he gets the benefit of me making him with a good strength and a great dex, and he still didn't match the fighter who was two handing. Now then we can take into consideration that some str monster might have an alright dex and use this to add onto their abilities, but since we are sticking for the moment with finesse weapons only and most str monsters are not going to spend 3 feats? (exotic weapon prof elven curved blade, weapon finesse, and weapon celerity/improved) or was it four. anyways they would spend four feats that could buy them some real destructive power with upper level feats, or they could add on half there dex which will be second or third highest stat for them. so half that bonus at higher levels will probably add a nice bang, I don't see it worth the buck.
of course since we have some data showing elvish curve blade out classing a THF I guess I will have to do some testing of my own.
sigh, okay so one for when I build these guys I can build two brutes and give one the elf blade, and the other the great sword, but should the elf blade wielder be more of a dex monkey or a str monster, oh who am i kidding I will have to build both.
so Sven is the only one I can reuse for this experiment :(
Sven is a lv20 fighter for this situation,
STR 23, DEX 14, con 14, INT 12, WIS 12, CHA 10.
so in the end our friendly fighter has the following stats
STR: 34, DEX: 20, CON: 24, INT: 12, WIS: 12, and cha 10.
AC: 39, HP: 250 (averaging HP), F: +24, R: +16, W: +12 (+5vs fear)
weapon: Great sword: +39/+39/+34/+29/+24 2d6+49+1d6elec CRIT 17-20/x3 (2d10 elec) oh and DR 5/- because he wears armor.
Sven will act as my THF example for this comparison
once again the Red Dragon CR19 will act as my point of reference for ac
since it has 38 ac I can calculate accuracy
so 39 hits 95% of the time (nat ones), 34 hits 80%, 29 hits 55%, 24 hits 30%
his great sword has a 17-20 range and does some impressive damage. 20% crit range,
so damage are as follows:
.95*146=138.7+.81.7=220.4, okay I have to stop here and say this if you aren't happy with math that says one hit and dragon is over half dead, I am sorry but that is too much for me this is the kind of damage that scares me.
Now then I have to build a similar character who is armed with an elven curved blade and see how much damage he can throw out. Okay so first example will be building a brute so we are just going to slightly alter our friend sven for this one.
so we need to swap what I think was 3 feats. so we will drop the following feats: intimidating prowess, penetrating strike, and greater penetrating strike.
Feats: power attack, cleave, great cleave, weapon focus great sword, weapon spec great sword, intimidating prowess, vital strike, improved vital strike, greater vital strike, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization, penetrating strike, and greater penetrating strike, dazzling display, shatter defense, deadly stroke, improved critical, critical focus, critical mastery, bleeding critical, tiring critical. we swap these three for the three I need, and change over the feats that say great sword to say elven curved blade.
Now then once this change is made we need to boost up dex as best as we can. We will do this buy switching con and dex around from the beginning, putting him at the max for wearing his full plate made of mythral.
from this he gets a base boost of damage of +3, and a drop from average of 7 to an average of 5.5, so about a +1 benefit.
Now then pumping this change into the equation
.95%*150+.95%*.30%*442=142.5+125.97=268.47 okay so the damage is higher by 50 points ish, still as I said with my other builds he is good enough. and so was the original sven, he still can't one shot the dragon with his first attack, and that is really what matters in this moment he has a little more ac and a chunk less hp.
Now then for calculating a fighter built as dex monkey as the foremost thought we can probably just switch str with the new dex
so his str goes to 24, and dex to 34
the change to the equation is this.
.95%*142+.95%*.30%*418=134.9+119.13=254.03 okay so this guy doesn't have as much damage as the altered sven, but he has more than normal sven, which is to be expected once again they are all good enough and that is what really matters, if this was working towards optimizing damage then yes you would take the str monster with a binge into dex.
Now then two weapon fighting is another story, technically it would add half dex to both weapons as long as they are both finesse weapons. or maybe it would only add to the off hand if you had double slice as well. either way I don't see them getting overly scary or at least much worse then they already are in terror ability. so I think personally these guys are fine, I would not on the other hand consider it a great idea to allow them to get full dex to damage if they use two hands, or get both dex and str in a situation, half dex can work, swapping them can work. getting both of them can get scary.
Holy crap we're breaking out the big math.
My idea was a bit simplistic. Feat that gives Dex to damage as precision damage for finessable weapons that requires weapon finesse as a pre-requisite.
I, urm, don't think that's too much.
I hadn't really thought about the elven curve blade. Possible because it's SUPER LAME!
Holy crap we're breaking out the big math.
My idea was a bit simplistic. Feat that gives Dex to damage as precision damage for finessable weapons that requires weapon finesse as a pre-requisite.
I, urm, don't think that's too much.
I hadn't really thought about the elven curve blade. Possible because it's SUPER LAME!
Yeah .... I'm not buying into the idea of something that NEEDS 2-hands to use being "finesseable" at all.
I think the simple idea is the best, though - keep it to finesse only, and keep it to 2-3+ feats to fully replace the function of STR in all combat calculations.
When someone breaks out "but a curve blade is finesseable!" you just lay down the GM b!$~+-slap and knock that concept out of the running.
:shrugs:
You just do ...
Hell, if NEEDED, add a line of text to the Dex to Damage feat along the lines of, "This bonus is only applicable when using finesse weapons in a single hand only." Or something like "If used with an off-hand weapon, only 1/2 of the bonus is granted." (or add a rider to mention that the "off hand full str bonus" feat works in a reciprocal fashion for this dex damage in an off-hand, OR make another feat that is needed for the dex damage to be applied with the off hand in the first place. Last is my favorite, honestly - keep charging feats to get replacement/alternative effects = much more balanced in general.)
okay so I see what the data is now for what his feat idea was.
And I apologize if the mass calculations traumatized anyone.
So if it is full dex but as precision damage, then I don't see all that much wrong with it, just remember to make sure it is stated that
Weapon finesse weapons only, prerequisite weapon finesse, maybe something that adds half dex, and then something that adds full dex. Now then for dealing with the rest of it here is what we can do, the half dex boost one says this bonus only goes to your main hand weapon, and is unaltered on a two handed weapon. Then for the third feat we say this bonus goes fully to your main hand, and if you wield a weapon in your off hand you receive half your dex. when wielding a two handed weapon this bonus damage is not multiplied by 1.5
Since this is precision damage there are many things out there not affected by it which helps with gm balance, we have constructs, undead, oozes, George Lopez, and Celine Dion. as well as people in special armor such as fortified armor, and elemental.
Now then if this was not precision I would say cap the damage as half dex and find away to make that the third feat in the progression. But since DM's have something to defend against this ability with I don't see much of a problem in fact this is a cool solution to some other builds problems, there damage hits the good enough but if you want to throw a challenge at them you still have ways.
I've modified my own feat slightly, for taking into account TWF:
Improved Weapon Finesse
Your well-aimed blows inflict additional damage.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse and either Combat Expertise or Deadly Aim.
Benefit: When attacking with a finesse weapon you add your dexterity modifier to your damage in addition to other effects and bonuses. This is precision damage, and will not affect creatures immune to critical hits or sneak attacks. Note that armour can restrict the maximum dexterity modifier you may apply.
Special: If you are wielding two finesse weapons you may divide the bonus damage between your main and off-hand weapon as you see fit, but the total bonus damage of both is still capped at your dexterity bonus.
I've modified my own feat slightly, for taking into account TWF:
Improved Weapon Finesse
Your well-aimed blows inflict additional damage.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse and either Combat Expertise or Deadly Aim.
Benefit: When attacking with a finesse weapon you add your dexterity modifier to your damage in addition to other effects and bonuses. This is precision damage, and will not affect creatures immune to critical hits or sneak attacks. Note that armour can restrict the maximum dexterity modifier you may apply.
Special: If you are wielding two finesse weapons you may divide the bonus damage between your main and off-hand weapon as you see fit, but the total bonus damage of both is still capped at your dexterity bonus.
I personally don't agree, and feel the Full main hand, 1/2 off hand that strength uses is perfectly fair. A Ranger would use strength and minimal dex, and a Fighter who planed to TWF would likely spend the extra feats to use dex instead.
Basically this feat tells TWFers that it's not made for them, which is a legitimate design decision, just not one I agree with.
You have a point ... but bear in mind this stacks with strength damage.
Would this be preferable from a balance point of view?
Improved Weapon Finesse
Your well-aimed blows inflict additional damage.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse and either Combat Expertise or Deadly Aim.
Benefit: When attacking with a finesse weapon you add your dexterity modifier to your damage in addition to other effects and bonuses. This is precision damage, and will not affect creatures immune to critical hits or sneak attacks. Note that armour can restrict the maximum dexterity modifier you may apply.
Special: If you are wielding two finesse weapons you may add half your dexterity modifer in precision damage to your off-hand weapon.
Well, Caineach used an eleven curve-blade and real power build to get ... and average of 1-2 points of damage extra per hit when it's stacked with strength, over a straight strength build. If you are actually using it with a dex build I think the strength bonus fades to being fairly insignificant, especially if you aren't using a two-handed weapon (and really there is only one two-handed finesse weapon).
Thing is, where precision damage is concerned (and it has to be precision damage, we're doing the extra by hitting where it hurts, that's the point) you do stack it with strength damage. The existing examples are the duelist's precise strike feature, and sneak attack, and both stack with strength.
Edit: Doing straight replacement is not such a hot idea IMHO; otherwise a a dimutive creature could inflict serious damage by replacing their strength mod of -5 with their dexterity mod of +5 with what amounts to a pin.
Okay now to make a response to kyrt-ryder's response to my post.
first of all Celine Dion is almost as horrific as the invisible Christopher Walken, who has a Tarrasque for his familiar and the undead lich queen of the githyanki as his animal companion.
second: well it is more I was going off of the data for that specific feat if it is adding the damage onto strength then it needs a little balance.
third: my preference was the one I put into my design for Marcus and Montoya when I designed them on this forum, they each had a two feats spent, granting them dex swapped for str. I have no problem with this I agree on the value of power attack.
Fourth: I am one of those crazy blokes who goes about memorizing rules, the downside sometimes they get mixed up, like in this case I thought constructs and undead were still immune to crits and sneaks.
In a case where the dex is being added onto the str though I feel that making it take a three feat tree total is fine, for adding on full dex to damage, and then we have to make some checks to it. I don't want to see precision damage being multiplied because it is being used two handed, the advantage is that what str you have is being multiplied. as for two handed combat that is arguable, with full dex I can see half going to off hand, with half dex going somewhere I would say that allowing it to be split up is fine, but otherwise I just feel odd granting quarter dex to off hand not sure why.
Lastly I have run out of random things, so look a distraction.
to Dabbler
can we at least allow my evil pixie swarm to brutally kill the munchkin in my party with their swap bonus before we decide on that part of the argument?
to Dabbler
can we at least allow my evil pixie swarm to brutally kill the munchkin in my party with their swap bonus before we decide on that part of the argument?
Just make them a swarm, then they won't have the penalties for size.
Anyways, thanks for clarifying for me. Yeah, adding dex ontop of strength is tricky.
Also, to Dabbler. I happen to like that there's a viable way to make a diminutive melee character.
Think about it, they already take a huge hit to meelee weapon damage (all the way down to just a single point in some cases), AND in order to hit their target's they provoke an attack of opportunity each time they swing their sword (aka a masterworked toothpick xD)
As it stands now, the only classes that can do the really small thing are spellcasters, anything else just suffers way too much from going below small. (Well, ok, a tiny Paladin Archer might do 'ok' but only as an NPC, because he'd be worth absolutely nothing when out of smites lol)
Yes, in a previous post I suggested that a smaller character loses one -1 to hit and damage for using a smaller weapon, for each step-down the weapon took, that way they don't get hit twice. So a diminutive fey with a sword and a strength of 1 and a dex of 20 would do 1d8-> 1d6 (small) -> 1d4 (tiny) -> 1d3 (dim) base damage but would ignore 3 steps of their -5 damage and attack modifier from strength to place it at -2. Now add their +5 from Improved Weapon Finesse to get 1d3+3.
Better? Even without this 'step compensation' they would go from 1d3-5 to 1d3 with IWF, and 1d3 isn't bad for a toothpick, it's not far below average damage for a dagger in the hands of a normal sized person. 1d3+3 is more average damage than a longsword in the hands of a normal person.
first of all Celine Dion is almost as horrific as the invisible Christopher Walken, who has a Tarrasque for his familiar and the undead lich queen of the githyanki as his animal companion.
She's not that bad, she just needs a little more cowbell.
She's not that bad, she just needs a little more cowbell.
first of all Celine Dion is almost as horrific as the invisible Christopher Walken, who has a Tarrasque for his familiar and the undead lich queen of the githyanki as his animal companion.
Oh dear sweet Cthuhlu he found me, Must flee so I can level up level 20 isn't high enough for this fight even if I use physics against him.
I'm not sure how much better it is, right now my head's kind of fuzzy due to family issues and it just seems too complicated to me.
If your concerned that the full dex -> strength swap for particularly small characters let me ask this question. Does it overpower the fact they take an AoO for attempting to hit?
I prefer the simple solution, but in your game it's your call Dabbler.
Well, in return for that AoO from size a diminutive character will get +4 to hit their target (compensates for my version of Deadly Aim which applies to finesse weapons), +4 to AC (and they can always take Mobility as well), and with investment of some skill points into Acrobatics (they have good dex) a decent chance of avoiding that AoO in the first place. Suddenly that AoO doesn't look so daunting to me.
If I was making a diminutive melee character, I'd go duelist or rogue (and/or use the Enhanced Sneak Attack feat), I'd make the most of Acrobatics and Mobility to avoid AoO or at least ensure that my AC vs those attacks was high, and I'd use as much bonus damage from other sources as I could, such as Deadly Defence, and keep my AC as high as possible. As I can move through another character's space, I'd be able to make the most of flanking too.
So at level 4, say, I'd be attacking with Deadly Aim, using Combat Expertise and Deadly Defence (if available, use Enhanced Sneak Attack and Improved Feint or flanking if not) for 1d3+7+1d6 (and +2 to AC). I'd use Acrobatics too (at least +9 check even if it isn't a class skill) to try and avoid that AoO against which my AC is 4 higher from Mobility (8 higher if you include my size bonus, 10 higher with Combat Expertise). It's not amazing damage, but it's respectable for someone 6" high and I'm not easy to hit (with a MW chain shirt that's a total AC of 30 vs that AoO, 26 otherwise).
Argh! Forum ate my post!
1: Well, I assumed I'd get all the feats I proposed to make this work. The difference between Power Attack and Deadly Aim is pretty academic until your strength drops bellow 13 anyway, I don't think it makes strength a dump-stat as strength in my proposed system always counts.
2: Well the diminutive character has to move forward (that's how you get the AoO), so why can't he use Acrobatics while he moves? It may be house-ruling rather than RAW but it makes perfect sense to me.
In any event, even if I had to make the diminutive character from just core, I could give them an AC vs AoO of 30 very easily. That's enough to largely avoid getting hit, and to ensure the other guy tries to hit you back with his normal attacks.
I just remembered my third point.
Combat Maneuvers.
A lot of your enemies are going to have gigantic CMB, and size imposes an additional penalty on your CMD on top of your str issues.
Being in close combat as a diminutive creature is a good way to get squished lol.
If they can hit you. The feats for making the dex-fighter viable go some what to making a diminutive creature viable in melee, but they don't take away all the disadvantages either.
Oh dear sweet Cthuhlu he found me, Must flee so I can level up level 20 isn't high enough for this fight even if I use physics against him.She's not that bad, she just needs a little more cowbell.
first of all Celine Dion is almost as horrific as the invisible Christopher Walken, who has a Tarrasque for his familiar and the undead lich queen of the githyanki as his animal companion.
Oooooh Waaaa Oooooh, Oooooh Waaa Oooooh... My poker-face. It still needs more cowbell.