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Yeah. TWF rogues... dime a dozen. I know. But I'd appreciate some quick feedback anyway. This will be an outgoing, personable character with all of the great social skills (including perform!) which should make him fun out of combat. The plan is to use a high intimidate skill (will be +12 by the time I have shatter defenses... and +18!!! by level 9)
In addition to the shatter def combo, I will rely on stealth (+11 at level 1) and acrobatics (+8 at level 1) for sneak attacks.
Yes, I recognize that picking fighter first would be more optimal in terms of hit points and combat ability, but I want all of the skills a level in rogue gives me from level 1... it will make the game more fun for me.
Buyng Attributes. May spend 20 points.
Half-Elf Rogue/Fighter
Attri Score Bonus Cost
Str 12 +1 +2
Dex 18 +4 +10 (gets +2 racial bonus)
Con 10 0 0
Int 14 +2 +5
Wis 8 -1 -2
Char 14 +2 +5
Gets 11 skills at level 1.
Speaks Common, Elven, Goblin, Orc.
1: Rogue Feat(1): Improved Initiative Half-Elf Feat: Skill focus (stealth) +0
2: Rogue Talent(2): Fast Stealth +1
3: Fighter(1): Two Wep Fighting, Finesse +2
4: Fighter (2): Weapon focus: short sword+3
5: Rogue (3) Feat: Dazzling Display +4
6: Rogue (4) Talent: Bleeding +5
7: Rogue (5) Feat: Shatter Defenses +5
8: Rogue (6) Talent: Improved TWF +6
9: Rogue (7) Feat: Persuasive (+2 to dimplomacy and intimidate... +4 if 10 ranks or more)
10: Rogue (8) Talent: Surprise Attack
11: Rogue (9) Feat: Mobility
12: Rogue (10) Talent: Opportunist
Thoughts?
Switch Improved initiative and Finesse. You want to be hitting at low levels much more than you want to be going first.
Not sure you even need the 2 levels of Fighter. You could pick a compbat feat with a rogue tallent and drop Imp. Init, and I'm not sure what you gain by fighter, some HP and an extra feat, but you lose 1d6 sneak and lots of skill points.
You may want to consider swapping your int and str. You will not be disappointed by the extra 2 damage, 3 if you work in Double Slice, and if you go up higher 2W Rend.
Are you ever taking dodge? I see mobility but not its prereq.
You've dumped Wis, don't have Iron Will, and are multiclassing two classes with bad Will saves. This is a bad idea. +2 base Will save at level 12 is a character killer.
One way to pump up the Will save is to consider multiclassing with a good Will save class. If you can get a good Fort save as well - all the better. Paladin, Cleric, Druid, Inquisitor, Monk all come to mind off the top of my head. 2 levels gets you +3 Will and Fort.
I also agree that weapon finesse should be a level 1 feat. You don't want to be going through level one with a worse chance to hit than a wizard with a crossbow!!!
heh. ok. thanks for the help. Easy fix.
Mobility for level 11 was a typo... should have been dodge or tef defense.
As for the fighter levels... fighter allowed me to bump up my BAB such that I could take improved twf at 8... it ALSO allowed me to take 2 extra feats... which is huge at that low level.
But maybe you are right... maybe I should just do a human rogue and drop the fighter levels completely... I'll think about that.
I gain a ton of skill points, that is for sure. And a sneak attack die.
I lose 1 language (Elven), low light vision, and the skill focus feat (although this latter washes out with the bonus skill points... at least a little... also I might argue that it is better to have 6 points added to 1 skill than 16 to 16 skills.) The loss of low light vision worries me a fair amount, too.
On the other hand, I could just go pure half-elf rogue...
I'll rethink this. Thanks for the help.
play a human, and just take I2WF at 9th level. your 1st level feats are going to be weapon finesse and 2WF. the bonus skill point will help too. need a 20 point array?
heres one (after mods)
Str 12
Dex 18
Con 12
Int14
Wis14
Cha 7
by dumping charisma, you get a better wisdom, better will saves, and quite a few skills are enchanced. perform is useless unless it is a prerequsite for some prestige class. just like craft and profession. want to perform? take sleight of hand and acrobatics. sleight of hand lets you do card tricks too. and acrobatics gives something similar to breakdancing. and they have other uses too. you only need charisma based skills if they involve some sort of prerequisite. and feinting is a lot easier now due to system changes. you have every social skill as a class skill and more skill points than before, as i found 2 quintessential skills that negate the need for perform and perform other functions as well. charisma has no effect on appearance whatsoever. and a 7 is only slightly below the human norm. a 7 charisma gives you an excuse to be shy, emo, arrogant, vain, or just plain autistic. (i have aspergers syndrome)
Looking at it from core only, it looks pretty solid. Yeah your will saves will be terrible but you can't always have everything. It's up to you to decide if you think it's worth the risk or not.
The fighter levels do add a nice bonus in feats, though you could get by without them. As for switching your str and int, be careful of running out of skill points. I myself have found the more skill points I have, the more I end up needing. If you do swap your int and str, I would probably drop fighter. If you do decide to go pure elf, then I would suggest switching stats around to keep at least a 10 con.
If I may ask, what books are allowed/ do you have access to for this character? Recently I've made a similar rogue, (level 8) using the Drow of the Underdark book.
If you can, take a look at the 'Terrifying Strike' ambush feat. -1d6 sneak attack to make your opponent shaken for 1 round combined with shatter defenses might be more than your DM wants to deal with though. The fearsome armor enchantment is great as well. +5 enhancement to intimidate, armor spikes and move action to demoralize rather than a standard are the benefits you get form this 5,000 gp armor enhancement.
Shuriken Nekogami wrote: play a human, and just take I2WF at 9th level. your 1st level feats are going to be weapon finesse and 2WF. the bonus skill point will help too. need a 20 point array?
heres one (after mods)
Str 12
Dex 18
Con 12
Int14
Wis14
Cha 7
by dumping charisma, you get a better wisdom, better will saves, and quite a few skills are enchanced. perform is useless unless it is a prerequsite for some prestige class. just like craft and profession. want to perform? take sleight of hand and acrobatics. sleight of hand lets you do card tricks too. and acrobatics gives something similar to breakdancing. and they have other uses too. you only need charisma based skills if they involve some sort of prerequisite. and feinting is a lot easier now due to system changes. you have every social skill as a class skill and more skill points than before, as i found 2 quintessential skills that negate the need for perform and perform other functions as well. charisma has no effect on appearance whatsoever. and a 7 is only slightly below the human norm. a 7 charisma gives you an excuse to be shy, emo, arrogant, vain, or just plain autistic. (i have aspergers syndrome)
Hey. I hear all of that. Makes lots of sense. But I have a character concept that I like. And I would enjoy being able to speak a bunch of languages and use social skills to accomplish objectives... so dumping charisma (which is what I used to do in high school eith every single character I ever played... I used to always just focus on combat effetiveness) is not in the cards for this one.
Take a level of cleric of Desna for an improved will and fort and the travel domain (10 move and ignore difficult terrain). Plus libreration domain(Immunity to magical bindings for 1 round/ cleric level). Human, Two weapon fighting, finesse, dodge, mobility, spring attack.
Move in fast sneak attack and then run like hell. Keep your acrobatics high to move though threat areas and mobility to prevent hits when acrobatics falls. Shield of faith is first level and so is long strider. (50' movement takes stick and move to a new level)
Good Luck
dumping charisma won't really hurt you that bad. you can with a 14 int human and favored class bonus get the following 12 skills at level 1
Acrobatics
Sleight of hand
Disable Device
Perception
Sense Motive
Diplomacy
Escape Artist
Climb
Swim
Bluff
Intimidate
Stealth
you can get all of these skills
then at level 2,
you can substitute a second rank each climb and swim for 2 ranks in linguistics and get 2 languages in the process.
then you can still have a human with the following array
Str 12
Dex18
Con 12
int 14
wis 14
cha 7
and the following feats
weapon finesse, 2 weapon fighting
you will do just fine socially
just not the cream of the crop
I would say also look at Inquisitor for taking 3-5 levels of.
Some of the Teamwork Feats are GREAT for Rogues, and being able to use them regardless of whether your companions have them or not (how they usually work) is a big plus, along with being able the 'retrain' them multiple times a day.
The +WIS bonus to Intimidate and Init makes it that much more worthwhile to have a decent WIS score, and on top of good Fort AND Will Saves, you won't be worring about Saves.
Inquisitors' spell list is actually VERY nice, and the Domain Power on top is very nice.
They have Medium Armor Proficiency and Repeating Cross-bow, which is pretty nice to have for a Rogue (1st round ranged Sneak Full-Attack), especially without spending a Feat for it.
And they have plenty of skill ranks on top of it! :-)
These are all great ideas. I appreciate the build suggestion, Nekogami... and I see the usefulness of gaining a bunch of stat points by dumping charisma to 7....
but if I plan on taking a bunch of charisma skills and very few wisdom based skills (sense motive and perception and that's it), is the +2 to my will save really worth it?
One thought is that this Pathfinder campaign allows me to take 2 traits... perhaps I can make up the wisdom save problem with Indomitable Faith. Gives +1 bonus to all will saves... I mean if I am only bumping wisdom for the save, that should help quite a bit.
I had not considered taking a cleric or inquisitor level... very clever a great ideas... my problem is I just can't bring myself to roleplay a priest who is also a free spirited rogue.
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Gelmir wrote: These are all great ideas. I appreciate the build suggestion, Nekogami... and I see the usefulness of gaining a bunch of stat points by dumping charisma to 7....
but if I plan on taking a bunch of charisma skills and very few wisdom based skills (sense motive and perception and that's it), is the +2 to my will save really worth it?
One thought is that this Pathfinder campaign allows me to take 2 traits... perhaps I can make up the wisdom save problem with Indomitable Faith. Gives +1 bonus to all will saves... I mean if I am only bumping wisdom for the save, that should help quite a bit.
I had not considered taking a cleric or inquisitor level... very clever a great ideas... my problem is I just can't bring myself to roleplay a priest who is also a free spirited rogue.
Gelmir, dumping Charisma will help you with some things, but ask yourself, is that the character you want to play? Don't stat out your character to be an optimized killing machine. Stat him out to be what you want to play. If you want to play a face, by all means, keep the charisma at 14. Someone in the party needs to, and I know when my group has someone with a negative in social skills the GM makes people start out less friendly.
If I were going to max out my damage and keep a survivable character, I would dump charisma. But you don't need to max out your damage. The game is designed to not be using optimized characters. Just take a look at the pregen iconics Paizo has for their adventure paths. The dwarf ranger uses a crossbow, about as bad as you can get.
I would recomend upping your wisdom to at least 10. Personally, I would drop a point of Dex to do this, and then you can also raise str by 1. I would keep that charisma where it is.
+1 to Caineach
Play what you want, you will never do everything so stick to the basics. If you wanna splash Fighter, take 4 levels, more loses sneak attack and rogue tricks, less does nothing for your BAB.
For a TWF Rogue you are missing some key pieces. Short Swords are nice, Rapiers are a bigger threat range at 18-20 or 15-20 with keen/imp crit. TAKE CRITICAL FEATS!!!! Bleeding Critical + 2 Rapiers + Improved Critical Rapier = chance for 2d6+STR+Sneak+2d6Bleed 25% of the time. Since Critical Focus is needed for Bleeding Critical that ups your chance to confirm the critical a lot.
I would go with the following feats:
Human: Two-Weapon Fighting
1: Dodge
Rog2Talent: Finesse Rogue(Weapon Finesse)
3: Double Slice
Rog4Talent: Weapon Training(Weapon Focus)
5: Iron Will
Rog6Talent: Combat Trick(Improved Initiative)
7: Nimble Moves
Rog8Talent: Fast Stealth
9: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Rog10Talent: Improved Evasion
11: Improved Critical
Rog12Talent: Opportunist
13: Critical Focus
Rog14Talent: Slippery Mind
15: Bleeding Critical
Rog16Talent: Crippling Strike
17: Two-Weapon Rend
Rogue18Talent: Feat(Greater Two-Weapon Fighting)
19: Wind Stance
Rogue20Talent: Feat(Acrobatic Steps)
Some Feats may seem out of place only because its a tight fit, but for a rogue who doesnt have swift actions, being able to avoid 20 feet of difficult terrain, you may wanna swap Acrobatic Steps with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting in the tree above to get more use of it(the 6th attack rarely hits anyhow). Short Sword is a good fit since they are light, but personally I take the extra -2 to attack(usually buffed away by the cleric/druid/bard of the group anyhow) and use 2 rapiers for the increased crit chance.
This gives you for the most part 4 solid attacks that have a 1/4 chance of crit threat, +1 more from Haste, +2 more not so likely to hit attacks that are guaranteed crit threats if they hit mostly since you will need higher than a 15 to hit with them. your getting 1d6+STR to both hands, hopefully you know how to flank for 10d6 sneak attack, chances are your going to crit at least 1-2 times a round so thats another 1d6+STR, and another 2d6 bleed, and another 2 STR damage to the target, all without saves in 1 attack.
So in the above example your doing(assuming STR16) 2d6+(2xSTR)+10d6(sneak attack)+2d6(continuous bleed until healed!)+ 2 Strength Damage = 20-90 + 2 STR Damage... if your feeling bold swap Slippery Mind for Bleeding Attack Rogue talent to add 10 more for a total range of 30-100 + 2STR Damage.. in either case you have an average damage per crit of 55-60. Figure on that reliably twice a round for 110-120 without other hits you may acrue. Certainly not optimal build for what you want but its a nice damage fest when you need.
I like trying for more crits by using 2 weapons... interesting. I need to think on that. Good point about the rapiers. I had written off worrying about criticals as they seemed too unreliable.
Will you be able to use twf at level 1 without weapon finesses? I feel like you would be missing a ton...
I like the crit Idea, though... my main problem with it is that this character is for the Pathfinder Society and so will max out at level 12.
So I need something that is fun and tricky right away. I am going to keep my charisma at least at 12.
I have thought a lot about twf... decided that the huge expenditure of feats for no utility beyond damage bothers me as does the lower to-hit chance.
So, instead, I am going with this: Elven rogue/fighter that uses an Elven Curved Blade.
1: Rogue(1) Feat: Wep Finesse
2: Rogue(2) Talent: Weapon focus: Elven Curved Blade BAB+1
3: Fighter(1): Mobility, Dodge BAB+2
4: Fighter (2): Combat Expertise BAB+3
5: Rogue (3): Spring Attack BAB+4
6: Rogue (4) Talent: Whirlwind Attack BAB+5
7: Rogue (5) Feat: Lunge
8: Rogue (6) Talent: Surprise attack BAB+6
9: Rogue (7) Feat: Vital strike BAB+7
10: Rogue (8) Talent: Bleed BAB+8/+1
11: Rogue (9) Feat: Power Attack BAB +8/+1
12: Rogue (10) Talent: Opportunist BAB +9/+1
His damage output is not too much less in levels 1 and 2 than a twf rogue (due to the increased to-hit). His damage does drop in comparison between levels 3 and 5 but he gains vastly increased mobility... which should mean more actual successful sneak attacks.
At 6 he picks up whirlwind attack and can start backstabbing entire groups of opponents. Net damage should, in fact, be greater than the twf rogue assuming more than 1 opponent.
at level 7 he gains Lunge and can now whirlwind backstab everyone in a 20 foot diameter circle. At this point his net damage output should be MUCH greater than the twf rogue.
Add in power attack and vital strike and you have a rogue that can ensure flanking without injury (between acrobatics, spring attack, mobility, dodge and combat expertise he can get in and out unscathed)and can lay down a world of hurt on entire groups of opponents.
At level 7 he can average 22 damage per opponent hit with sneak attack. A room of 5 opponents would result in 110 points of damage!
Finally, the build is just plain fun and unique. I have a great character concept who will be very effective in and out of combat. He ends up taking every social skill with a 12 charisma and still maintains a 18 dex and 14 strength.
I take 2 levels in fighter in order to (1) gain access to the Elven Curved Blade, (2) gain the extra feats (3) gain +2 to my BAB that I would not otherwise have.
Gelmir wrote: I like trying for more crits by using 2 weapons... interesting. I need to think on that. Good point about the rapiers. I had written off worrying about criticals as they seemed too unreliable.
Will you be able to use twf at level 1 without weapon finesses? I feel like you would be missing a ton...
Yeah I know finesse is better at 1, but the rogue talent comes at 2 and gets it to you as a bonus feat. Honestly unless your playing with Pathfinder's SLOW XP table, level 1 goes quickly.. usually in 1, maybe 2 encounters so not having Finesse til 2 isn't so burdenous(is that a word?).
Also didn't realize you were hard capping at 12 or thereabouts. Elven Curveblade wielding, 2-hander rogue.. that is a SCARY thought. Combat Expertise is nice, however your BAB is already lower than normal.
You may want to forgo Whirlwind Attack. With the current set up you have 2 flaws;
A: Lunge requires BAB +6 or higher, with Rog5/Ftr2 you only have a BAB +5 @ level 7
B: It takes a FULL ROUND Action to use to hit all in reach. Great Cleave on the other hand, is a STANDARD Action, that works very similarly and has nice synergy with Spring Attack.
I would swap Combat Expertise for Power Attack, Whirlwind for Cleave, and Lunge for Great Cleave. As a standard action you can Spring Attack and Great Cleave.. while you won't have the reach you will get a lot more milage out of Spring Attack which otherwise seems a waste. Vital Strike is nice for when Great Cleave would have 0-1 extra targets and you want a quick damage boost(Vital Strike does double damage which if a crit becomes triple for the curveblade plus double strength). Since your moving Power Attack up to 4th level, you open up room for Improved Critical at 11 :P Now you threaten on 15-20!
I considered the cleave idea first... my concern was how often are bad guys right next to each other? But ok.
1: Rogue(1) Feat: Wep Finesse
2: Rogue(2) Talent: Bleed (this is too good to wait on) BAB+1
3: Fighter(1): Power Attack, Cleave BAB+2
4: Fighter (2): Dodge BAB+3
5: Rogue (3): Mobility BAB+4
6: Rogue (4) Talent: Spring Attack BAB+5
7: Rogue (5) Feat: Lunge
8: Rogue (6) Talent: Surprise attack BAB+6
9: Rogue (7) Feat: Vital strike BAB+7
10: Rogue (8) Talent: Weapon focus: Elven Curved Blade BAB+8/+1
11: Rogue (9) Feat: Improved Crit BAB +8/+1
12: Rogue (10) Talent: Opportunist BAB +9/+1
So the great thing about this guy is he never ends up getting stuck in one place. He can run around like a maniac, potentially causing a ton of damage if opponents are next to each other...
Lunge would be great in this... would really ensure I can use cleave more often... Because then I can potentially hit an opponent on the other side of the first one I attack, right? Besides, how often will I have more than 2 opponents standing right next to each other? Probably not often
Running in *Cleave* and running out is fun.
The main difference for me between these 2 builds is that the Cleave guy is more useful in general combat as he can use all of his feats every round (as long as 2 opponents are next to each other)
While the Whirlwind character is an AMAZING attacker in the sneak attack round. I mean, he is like a walking first round fireball.
After that, more difficult to set up whirlwind...
Gelmir wrote:
I had not considered taking a cleric or inquisitor level... very clever a great ideas... my problem is I just can't bring myself to roleplay a priest who is also a free spirited rogue.
Mr. Fishy named him Remy and he hates the paladin, is captain of our ship and visits the temple of Calstria regularly. (priest of Desna/rogue) Mr. Fishy loves Remy.
"I'm not that kind of cleric." Remy to a party member in need of healing.
can't take weapon finesse at lvl 1, needs BAB +1
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Weapon finesse no longer has a BAB prereq. Rogues are now allowed to hit their targets at level 1. :-)
I played a similar build, but with two-weapon feint. Insanely good when it works ^^
I am currently playing a character like this in PFS... at level 4 right now.
STR13
DEX17
CON14
INT12
WIS10
CHA14
Feats: Weapon Finesse(1), Dodge(human), TWF (from Rogue Talent), Two Weapon Defense (3)
My level 4 rogue talent is minor magic, to get Acid Splash 3/day (usable to sneak attack in surprise round).
I thought about going towards 2 Weapon Feint, which is definitely good, but takes SO many feats.
Really, what I am thinking of doing is maxing the number of times per round I can use sneak attack. That is where the damage will come from. Currently, I use a MW Rapier and a MW Gladius... but also have a few other weapons to deal with DR, etc.
He is a also very much a "social rogue", which has come in very useful during adventures.
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