Creative Director
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The point is, I felt like it was a simple necessity to not put all my eggs in one basket, so I designed a character that had several options for contributing. Sure, I was pretty boss when it came to dishing out the enchantments and illusions, but I had enough other stuff in my utility belt that I never felt at a loss for stuff to do.
And when it worked... it worked GOOD. I seem to remember your character more or less singlehandedly bringing the climactic battle at Farshore to an end by mind-controlling a certain big bad end guy... ;-P
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The point is, I felt like it was a simple necessity to not put all my eggs in one basket, so I designed a character that had several options for contributing. Sure, I was pretty boss when it came to dishing out the enchantments and illusions, but I had enough other stuff in my utility belt that I never felt at a loss for stuff to do.And when it worked... it worked GOOD. I seem to remember your character more or less singlehandedly bringing the climactic battle at Farshore to an end by mind-controlling a certain big bad end guy... ;-P
Hey, I spent a hero card for that! And it didn't exactly *kill* him, but it did make things a LOT easier! Besides, he had it comin' - he was messin with my girl!
I also went out with a blaze of glory with overwhelm against Demogorgon right at the end. Of course, he got me back, in spectacular fashion, but hey what adventurer wouldn't want to go out in a blaze of glory? :)
When boss mobs have mooks and lieutenants at their side, they become a lot more interesting. Players may need to use actual strategy and tactics instead of just straight of spanking him. I know my group took down Karzoug pretty easily since our 5 actions could easily beat his 1.
Also, please note: Bo9S is ridiculously, impossibly broken. PF fighters do what fighters should do: insane amounts of damage with their base attacks.
Book of Nine Swords... *sigh* This argument again?
3.5 Fighter =/= Pathfinder Fighter
A fighter is rather naked, sure. And if your party doesn't do anything to fix this with buffs as they come close to the double digits, they suck for screwing the fighter over. Just after the most BASIC whole-party buffs that should be out in each and every rough encounter (Haste, Inspire Courage/Bless, Prayer etc) the fighter goes from kinda "meh..." to the god of pure numbers. Of course, it helps if the fighter knows his trade, does more than melee "Oh hi, Mr flying magic sorts, have a taste of my readied adamantite +1 bane of whatever-you-are arrow! What's that you say?... 'Wah wah, my Protection from Arrows spell is nerfed'? Well, sucks to be you now, doesn't it?"
Digression aside: This is where Bo9S is broken, because it COMPENSATES for the 3.5 fighter being ass in its own merit, basing it on being in a party with total n00bshrooms that doesn't know how to play a party, and where the casters take advantage of WotC's love for casters and neglect of fighters (and yes, I loved Bo9s for this in D&D 3.5). A swordsage/warblade with master of nine prc, easily do damage in the hundreds, can cancel hits, do magic-y stuff and have the benefits of a barbarian/rogue of the same level on top of that. Sure, this is not so bad compared to the Wizard/Master Specialist/Incantatrix casting spells so meta'ed that you need an emptied ice-cream tub to serve as a dice-rattler for your 120d8 empowered/twinned/ horrid wiltings... cast at lv15, but with an effective caster level in the 20s...
To be honest, washing my hands of WotC's epic ability to be as balanced as an anchor, and swearing to pure pathfinder with only a few spells and feats from older materials in order to keep it varied... is the best thing that has happened to me as a DM. Sorry, make that GM.
I am GMing Kingmaker now, and the fighter is probably the most important asset of the group, as he is often the only one who can take on the heavy hitters and survive, but only with the support of the cleric. And yes, the rogue certainly makes good use of the pillar of AC & HP that combat revolves around. Then the wizard does his best to alter the flow of combat, and the cavalier finishes off the buff circle by giving out the unnamed buffs, making the entire party more effective. Had the wizard and the cleric gone down selfish paths, I am certain that the fighter would have died, then the rest of them, since none have an AC or HP pool that even comes close.
To finish off my argument: I would never in my wildest dreams want to play a single class fighter in 3.5. Now... I can't wait for my chance to play one ^^
On topic: I think the fighter will be the only one hitting the notorious AC46 monster... but if I know my wizard-player right, the AC will not remain at 46 for very long :3
Also, please note: Bo9S is ridiculously, impossibly broken.
False. Next wildly uninformed statement?
** spoiler omitted **
That would be hilarious!!
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Personally, the fact that there are more monsters that an enchanter can actually have an effect on is a GOOD thing. If the PCs, once in a while, get to feel powerful by using a single spell like hold person on a giant to shut down a super powerful monster, that's good. That makes things fun, and it lets players feel like their characters are actually becoming powerful.
I had an experience with some trolls my DM threw at us as a side trek in Endless Night (which is a blast BTW). I play the weakling cowardly bard, and it looked like it was gonna be a tough fight (CR 14 for 5 EL 11 characters), until I remembered "Hey! Trolls are humanoids now! I cast Hold Person!" Made the rogue's job a lot easier. It's nice when you happen accross a fix to a problem that doesn't involve being subject to rending attacks. :)
SKR's super-handy excell statblock spreadsheet!
Is this open to the public? This sounds like an amazing tool..
If it is and it's common knowledge that it is.. where does one get it?
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Creative Director
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SKR's super-handy excell statblock spreadsheet!Is this open to the public? This sounds like an amazing tool..
If it is and it's common knowledge that it is.. where does one get it?
It's not open to the public. We sometimes provide our freelancers with it, but it's pretty much one of those tools we keep to ourselves to help make our jobs easier. :P
It's not open to the public. We sometimes provide our freelancers with it, but it's pretty much one of those tools we keep to ourselves to help make our jobs easier. :P
Yeah, that's pretty much what I expected. So, as much as I would love to get my grubby little hands on it.. I'm not too let down. :D
Also, please note: Bo9S is ridiculously, impossibly broken.
Actually it is rather underpowered.
PF fighters do what fighters should do: insane amounts of damage with their base attacks.
PF fighters don't do that. Neither anyone should do that and just that. No fantasy character (not directly inspired by DnD) ever was so restricted in his role. The biggest problem with 3.X fighter never was the lack of sheer power (because that's fixable), it was ridiculously narrow conceptual space and boring gameplay.
Just after the most BASIC whole-party buffs that should be out in each and every rough encounter (Haste, Inspire Courage/Bless, Prayer etc)
No, they shouldn't. Except Haste, maybe, and Inspire Courage only if there is a bard and he had put everyting into making Inspire Courage awesome. Anyone who wastes precious standard actions or casting Prayer should be fired from party, and Bless at least can be pre-cast, but doesn't really do anything.
the fighter goes from kinda "meh..." to the god of pure numbers.
Casters can make the fighter awesome, yes. That's proves power of casters, not usefulness of the fighter.
Of course, it helps if the fighter knows his trade, does more than melee "Oh hi, Mr flying magic sorts, have a taste of my readied adamantite +1 bane of whatever-you-are arrow! What's that you say?... 'Wah wah, my Protection from Arrows spell is nerfed'? Well, sucks to be you now, doesn't it?"
No, he says: "Your secondary schtick is totally no match for my AC 50+ and miss chances up the wazoo, which I have by the time you can afford adamantine bane arrows for your secondary weapon, b$%^&." Now, a PF fighter that realizes that melee is a fool's game now and ultraspecializes in archery from the beginning can be quite powerful. But he'll be even more boring to play, because his actions will boil down to standing in place spamming archery full attacks most of the time.
Digression aside: This is where Bo9S is broken, because it COMPENSATES for the 3.5 fighter being ass in its own merit,
No, it tries to finally give melee characters some level-appropriate stuff, so that they can counter basic Screw You tricks of DnD and can contribute to mid- and high- level games without being into the three builds that work (and without blowing away everyone who doesn't have these Screw You tricks in a single action, because their damage potential is sufficient to one-round tarrasques). It still was too stingy and failed to give enough. In fact, save for a few exploits, it is best used for plundering some defensive tricks for the good old pouncing charger barbarian, if you strive for maximum power.
AC 51 .... about time.
Let's kill us some (more) player characters ... "by the book, Captain."
DnD ... pouncing charger barbarian ...
My bad. I thought we were talking about pathfinder.
Of course the Bo9S is underpowered in D&D. I was in a lv19 party with a cleric, an arcane trickster and a bladesinger that thought any round where their damage totals were below 200 were close to failures, since that meant they rolled poorly and missed some hits.
D&D is broken, no secret there. I say "If you allow spells and classes from D&D, then YOU are making the fighter crap, not Paizo."
Also, Adamantite +1 Bane Arrows go for 216gp a pop. If I play anything that carries a bow with a respectable bonus to hit, I get me some of those arrows, just like the casters would have scrolls. A couple of solid hits will take down an NPC caster pretty easy, bypassing both Protection from Arrows and Stoneskin. Miss chance from displacement can be negated by sinking a few feats into archery, though blink will still be a problem.
Having the right tools for the job should be a priority for any fighter. But if your casters refuse to let some spells go towards improving the rest of the party (Greater Magic Weapon on a quiver of varied material arrows or your backup weapon, for example), your budget will look grim.
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Creative Director
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Actually it is rather underpowered.
Also, please note: Bo9S is ridiculously, impossibly broken.
It's exchanges like these that prove to me that Bo9S is more or less just about right. If some folks think its broken and others think it's underpowered... it's relatively balanced. Doesn't mean the FLAVOR is good at all.
But it does mean that arguments about the book's merits will never end, and that's a good reason to re-aim the Bo9S conversation to another thread.
I created this thread, but if folks are just interested in talking about the merits of Bo9S, I'll go ahead and lock the thread in the theory that the thread has outlived its usefulness and the Bo9S arguments can carry on in more appropriate threads.
I'm not trying to be a jerk about this... but some people are really not interested in Bo9S arguments. I'm one of them.
I'm noticing a lack of spell casters early on in the AP... does that change soon?
(I mean as villains instead of possible PC helper NPC types)
I'm not trying to be a jerk about this... but some people are really not interested in Bo9S arguments. I'm one of them.
My bad, I keep having to ban it game after game, since it developed sort of a cult following from two of my players, and it is one of my pet peeves now.
I had a more relevant question, but think I just realized how terrifying the concept of a nymph blackguard really is (can't wait to see the god-like saving throws she gets with THAT charisma on all of them), and it slipped my mind... at least I won't have to fudge saves against anti-climactic spells that could instantly drop her ^^
@Abraham Spalding: I am kinda grateful for the lack of spellcasters. Few things more deadly on low levels than hostile casters. A lv5 wizard is a CR4 encounter, but with a well placed fireball and some bad luck on saves, and it can be a one way ticket on the TPK express. I was contemplating how it would be like of I reworked Tartuk the Kobold Sorcerer with Dragon Magic and Races of the Dragon, but if I did that, he could have access to fireball and be a much nastier customer >_>
Mr. Jacobs, I am excited to see some truly optimized baddies. Why wouldn't they take every advantage they can.
AC 51? Fiddlesticks. I want to see higher... more dangerous baddies that will strike fear into my players hearts.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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DnD ... pouncing charger barbarian ...My bad. I thought we were talking about pathfinder.
Of course the Bo9S is underpowered in D&D. I was in a lv19 party with a cleric, an arcane trickster and a bladesinger that thought any round where their damage totals were below 200 were close to failures, since that meant they rolled poorly and missed some hits.
D&D is broken, no secret there. I say "If you allow spells and classes from D&D, then YOU are making the fighter crap, not Paizo."
Also, Adamantite +1 Bane Arrows go for 216gp a pop. If I play anything that carries a bow with a respectable bonus to hit, I get me some of those arrows, just like the casters would have scrolls. A couple of solid hits will take down an NPC caster pretty easy, bypassing both Protection from Arrows and Stoneskin. Miss chance from displacement can be negated by sinking a few feats into archery, though blink will still be a problem.
Having the right tools for the job should be a priority for any fighter. But if your casters refuse to let some spells go towards improving the rest of the party (Greater Magic Weapon on a quiver of varied material arrows or your backup weapon, for example), your budget will look grim.
Seeking bow, btw, is a +1 enhancement that is the bee's knees for dealing with spellcasters and other tricksy foes who use miss chance. Right there in the core rules and everything.
Seeking bow, btw, is a +1 enhancement that is the bee's knees for dealing with spellcasters and other tricksy foes who use miss chance. Right there in the core rules and everything.DnD ... pouncing charger barbarian ...My bad. I thought we were talking about pathfinder.
Of course the Bo9S is underpowered in D&D. I was in a lv19 party with a cleric, an arcane trickster and a bladesinger that thought any round where their damage totals were below 200 were close to failures, since that meant they rolled poorly and missed some hits.
D&D is broken, no secret there. I say "If you allow spells and classes from D&D, then YOU are making the fighter crap, not Paizo."
Also, Adamantite +1 Bane Arrows go for 216gp a pop. If I play anything that carries a bow with a respectable bonus to hit, I get me some of those arrows, just like the casters would have scrolls. A couple of solid hits will take down an NPC caster pretty easy, bypassing both Protection from Arrows and Stoneskin. Miss chance from displacement can be negated by sinking a few feats into archery, though blink will still be a problem.
Having the right tools for the job should be a priority for any fighter. But if your casters refuse to let some spells go towards improving the rest of the party (Greater Magic Weapon on a quiver of varied material arrows or your backup weapon, for example), your budget will look grim.
Oh yeah, totally forgot about that. Get a +1 seeking bow, down a potion of see invisibility and fire plain old adamantite arrows, and you get through most of a wizard's defenses ^^
@James: Finally remembered my question: The blackguard, where can I find the pathfinder version? I know it is not in the core rulebook.
Soooooo--this gives me hope for a Mammoth Lords/Linnorm Kings Adventure Path down the road, seeing how involved you were in this book!
Yes, exactly! Do this, please! I would like to see it, too. So much! It would be the coolest AP ever - and not only in regard to the climate ;)
DnD ... pouncing charger barbarian ...My bad. I thought we were talking about pathfinder.
Of course the Bo9S is underpowered in D&D. I was in a lv19 party with a cleric, an arcane trickster and a bladesinger that thought any round where their damage totals were below 200 were close to failures, since that meant they rolled poorly and missed some hits.
That's exactly how level 19 characters should be. At level 19 you either fight greater fiends which have more than 200 hp and are highly problematic to melee/to hit at all or dragons which have 500+ hp and are highly problematic to hit at all, or the tarrasque which has 840 hp. And all of them have attacks that can kill you in a single action. The damage output of 200+ is actually around the bare minimum required for competency at level 19, if damage is your primary schtick. As another point of comparison, elite mooks you fight in RotRL by level 15-16 have 230 hp. At level 19 they are no longer elite, they are simple mooks you're supposed to kill by looking sternly at them, not even registering as opponents worthy of XP.
D&D is broken, no secret there. I say "If you allow spells and classes from D&D, then YOU are making the fighter crap, not Paizo."
PF, as far as I'm aware, still has most of the true campaign-busting spells, starting with Scry + Teleport, and three classes out of the Big Five are still in the corebook (two very midly nerfed and one actully buffed).
Also, Adamantite +1 Bane Arrows go for 216gp a pop.
This is incredibly costly. Even if campaign has only 3-4 common enemy types. Blowing 216 gp per shot (assuming you're rich enough to have a correct type on hand in the first place) is like sundering your own stuff.
If I play anything that carries a bow with a respectable bonus to hit,
And a fighter that is not specialized in archery to begin with is not that something.
I get me some of those arrows, just like the casters would have scrolls. A couple of solid hits will take down an NPC caster pretty easy, bypassing both Protection from Arrows and Stoneskin.
The last time I've seen anyone actually cast either of those was when we still played AD&D 2. Seriously. Nowadays wizards cast Blink, Displacement, Impoved Invisibility, Wind Wall, various Fog spells, various Wall spells, and straight AC buffs to defend themselves.
But if your casters refuse to let some spells go towards improving the rest of the party (Greater Magic Weapon on a quiver of varied material arrows or your backup weapon, for example), your budget will look grim.
Exactly. Now, a million-dollar question: and how fighter is supposed to function when no one wants to play a caster at all?
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Creative Director
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Mr. Jacobs, I am excited to see some truly optimized baddies. Why wouldn't they take every advantage they can.
AC 51? Fiddlesticks. I want to see higher... more dangerous baddies that will strike fear into my players hearts.
Actually, they're not really "Truly Optimized" bad guys. "Truly optimized" in my opinion is boring and doesn't make for good NPCs. They're powerful, yes... but not numbercrunched to the extent that they can't possibly get better.
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Creative Director
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@James: Finally remembered my question: The blackguard, where can I find the pathfinder version? I know it is not in the core rulebook.
The Advanced Player's Guide will present the antipaladin as a full 20-level alternate chaotic evil paladin. We aren't updating the blackguard prestige class.
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The Advanced Player's Guide will present the antipaladin as a full 20-level alternate chaotic evil paladin. We aren't updating the blackguard prestige class.
Cool on the antipaladin.
Re the Blackguard, is this more because the 3.5 version works well as it is, because you designer guys at Paizo don’t really like the flavour of the Blackguard, or because you’ve got other things (like Hellknights and Antipaladins) that can sort of fill the same role? Or some combo of the above?
Actually, they're not really "Truly Optimized" bad guys. "Truly optimized" in my opinion is boring and doesn't make for good NPCs. They're powerful, yes... but not numbercrunched to the extent that they can't possibly get better.
My comment was in part an attempt to get the thread back to what you had originally meant for this thread to be in order to prevent locking.
I agree with you. I don't really like min/maxed baddies.. I do like baddies that have taken every opportunity to make themselves better.
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Creative Director
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Re the Blackguard, is this more because the 3.5 version works well as it is, because you designer guys at Paizo don’t really like the flavour of the Blackguard, or because you’ve got other things (like Hellknights and Antipaladins) that can sort of fill the same role? Or some combo of the above?
It's mostly because we think that the role of bad-guy paladin is better served by a full alternate paladin from 1st to 20th level. This way, not only does the antipaladin get to be what he is from the start of his career, but a paladin that falls and becomes an antipaladin can simply just transition over to the other class on a one for one level. Making that class a prestige class makes things weird.
The blackguard won't be updated officially, but neither are we going to assign that name to anything else. So folks can still use the 3.5 blackguard prestige class if they want.
No. I want my high level fighters more like Boromir, less like characters from "Samurai Showdown". My view of a high-level fighter is just someone shockingly good with his weapons of choice, not someone capable of superhuman tricks.
Oh, and how I missed this gem? If your fighter is just someone shockingly good with his weapons of choice, then your fighter is not high-level. By definition. I mean, look at the example monsters presented in this thread. Do they look like something that people who even in the movie had problems with a Large-sized armored-skin melee brute, which looked less threatening than a stone giant, can possibly defeat? A high-level DnD fighter is superhuman, there is no "ifs" or "buts" about it. He's seriously better than Hercules just by virtue of being able to survive double-digit CR stuff (if he's optimized enough to be able to, of course). But the active parts of his superhuman ability are all focused into making things blow up into fine red mist with his sword. This does not make a high-level fighter mundane in any way. In fact, ability to just stand there and duke it out with giants and stuff, without employing any tricks or tactics to defeat them, underscores how superhuman he is. This, however, does make him both boring to play and exceedingly vulnerable to opponents who play tricks on him. "Doing the same thing you've did at level 1, but better" is a crappy niche in a game where several classes get boadloads of radically new abilities every two levels.
P.S.: Those who believe that buyng seeking bows as a secondary weapon is a viable way of becoming capable to figh wizards, should remember, that a weapon with +2 summary enhancement costs 8k GP, and at 9th level a character is supposed to get only 46k worth of bling. And that he must keep his primary weapon and armor upgraded, if he doesn't want to be squashed. Before 9th level, such expenditure on a secondary trick is not even worth considering. And by 9th level PF wizards still get things like Scry & Fry and outsider binding, that do not break most games simply because they are so overpowered, that most GMs refuse to milk them for their full potential and screw PCs who use them by sheer fiat.
That's exactly how level 19 characters should be. At level 19 you either fight greater fiends which have more than 200 hp and are highly problematic to melee/to hit at all or dragons which have 500+ hp and are highly problematic to hit at all, or the tarrasque which has 840 hp. And all of them have attacks that can kill you in a single action. The damage output of 200+ is actually around the bare minimum required for competency at level 19, if damage is your primary schtick. As another point of comparison, elite mooks you fight in RotRL by level 15-16 have 230 hp. At level 19 they are no longer elite, they are simple mooks you're supposed to kill by looking sternly at them, not even registering as opponents worthy of XP.
This more or less underlines what I thought. Our play-styles are very different. I am not a fan of having battles where Initiative is the most important roll, since the winner of initiative wins the battle, as even the big bads fall from the damage output of one round of combat.
This kind of play is what ruins the game in my opinion, since if you are going for super-power, then half the core classes gets left behind. I had a monk I truly enjoyed playing for a good while in previously mentioned campain, then I died because the DM had to "re-balance" the game because the bladesingers, swordsage/rogues, clerics and metamagic wizards were cleaning out normal encounters before most of them could even act. It turned into a munchkin arms-race where the DM had to make more and more ridiculous monsters to counter the players effort to dig up new and improved ways to deal absurd damage. My favorite was his int/wis/cha draining homebrew monsters that had +50 initiative, could cast time-stop as a spell-like ability on top of having 20 caster levels (all spells quickened for free), just so they could ACT, and actually pose a threat.
This laughable campain turned one of my fighter-loving best friends off table-top RPGs forever.
On spite, I made the most munchkin epic paladin I could, and found some broken-ass way to deal 2000+ per smite when I used my cross class UMD and Cha38 to cast time-stop and an array of broken third-party buffs (one that made my cha 60+). And I could smite in two 60'x25' area with a meta-magic'ed paladin-only spell. After that, we realized how stupid the game had become, and we dropped it.
So, if this is how your games are, then sure, your fighters suck, no question there, but this is, in my opinion, not what Pathfinder is intended to be. At least not when I sit behind the screen.
And in the interest of keeping the thread alive, I say we agree to disagree here, and stop going off-topic.
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@James: Finally remembered my question: The blackguard, where can I find the pathfinder version? I know it is not in the core rulebook.The Advanced Player's Guide will present the antipaladin as a full 20-level alternate chaotic evil paladin. We aren't updating the blackguard prestige class.
If it's an anti-paladin I'm assuming there is some type of code that must be followed. How is the CE alignment requirement balanced with the requirement to follow a code? TBH, I've always envisioned an anti paladin as LE...somebody who's dedicated to spreading evil or holds up evil as an ideal.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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For the convenience of everyone, please direct any further conversation about the relative merits of the Book of Nine Swords, or fighter-type characters vs. caster-type characters, etc. to this thread.
In the immortal words of the King: "Thank you, thank you, thank you very much."
For the convenience of everyone, please direct any further conversation about the relative merits of the Book of Nine Swords, or fighter-type characters vs. caster-type characters, etc. to this thread.
In the immortal words of the King: "Thank you, thank you, thank you very much."
+1 Jason for saving the thread...
Now the Tome of Magic was the best book ever... (ducks away from the soon to be thrown fruit)
AC 51 is making me happy.
I had way too much fun telling the players they miss on Xanesha.
Seeking bow, btw, is a +1 enhancement that is the bee's knees for dealing with spellcasters and other tricksy foes who use miss chance.
The bee's knees, you say? Comparing apples to apples for a moment (other things that are also the bee's knees) would you say it's more or less powerful than GEICO insurance?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Seeking bow, btw, is a +1 enhancement that is the bee's knees for dealing with spellcasters and other tricksy foes who use miss chance.The bee's knees, you say? Comparing apples to apples for a moment (other things that are also the bee's knees) would you say it's more or less powerful than GEICO insurance?
Having had Geico insurance and since moved on to greener pastures, I can assure you that it is MUCH more powerful! 15 minutes will save you 15% only sounds good until you actually need someone to do something.
Seeking bow, btw, is a +1 enhancement that is the bee's knees for dealing with spellcasters and other tricksy foes who use miss chance.The bee's knees, you say? Comparing apples to apples for a moment (other things that are also the bee's knees) would you say it's more or less powerful than GEICO insurance?
Which brings up an interesting point -- how does the seeking quality work against mirror image? I could certainly see an argument for it always hitting the caster.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Which brings up an interesting point -- how does the seeking quality work against mirror image? I could certainly see an argument for it always hitting the caster.
My take on it: seeking would only help if you closed your eyes before you shot. Otherwise, you're not dealing with concealment.
Which brings up an interesting point -- how does the seeking quality work against mirror image? I could certainly see an argument for it always hitting the caster.My take on it: seeking would only help if you closed your eyes before you shot. Otherwise, you're not dealing with concealment.
See I could really see that as well.
Anyways they would need to hit that high AC before it will ever be a problem!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Which brings up an interesting point -- how does the seeking quality work against mirror image? I could certainly see an argument for it always hitting the caster.My take on it: seeking would only help if you closed your eyes before you shot. Otherwise, you're not dealing with concealment.
Ding!
That's the trick. Same with true strike. You can see the square they're in. You shoot (or move up if melee+TS) and close your eyes just before your attack. Miss chance - AVERTED!
Which brings up an interesting point -- how does the seeking quality work against mirror image? I could certainly see an argument for it always hitting the caster.My take on it: seeking would only help if you closed your eyes before you shot. Otherwise, you're not dealing with concealment.Ding!
That's the trick. Same with true strike. You can see the square they're in. You shoot (or move up if melee+TS) and close your eyes just before your attack. Miss chance - AVERTED!
I never thought of using Seeking like that.
I'll be sure to use it to kill the AC 51 BBEG.
Counter-post complete.
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@James: Finally remembered my question: The blackguard, where can I find the pathfinder version? I know it is not in the core rulebook.The Advanced Player's Guide will present the antipaladin as a full 20-level alternate chaotic evil paladin. We aren't updating the blackguard prestige class.
CHOKE! O_X
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSAUSAGE!!!!!! AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGH!
[translation: wow, I love you guys...]
I'm not trying to be a jerk about this... but some people are really not interested in Bo9S arguments. I'm one of them.
Seconded. Thirded. Good gods of Golarion TIMES INFINITY FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!!!!
Ahem. <Steps atop soapbox>
I was 100% cool with threads dedicated to the Bo9S. Makes sense, you'd debate the book in those threads. But now? Would it be possible to lock ANY and ALL threads related to Bo9S?!??!? Pretty, pretty please?!?!?
I mean, seriously, aren't there, I dunno, WotC forums where people can debate this crap?
In case you Bo9S fans haven't noticed: IT AIN'T OPEN CONTENT!! It'll NEVER be officially supported in the PFRPG! EVEN IF PAIZO WANTED TO -- WHICH THEY DON'T!!!
<resumes smacking of forehead against brick wall after finding yet another thread poisoned by people too thick to realize that some people don't give a kobold's ass about the Bo9S...>
<Steps off of soapbox>
Friendly suggestion: While you're out there Googling the Open Content status of the Bo9S, try searching "Threadcrapping" while you're at it...
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Not to worry, discussion has been rerouted to a separate thread.
As for THIS thread, perhaps you might enjoy this fine product, also left on the cutting room floor from "War of the River Kings." The idea of this encounter was that PCs would be lured into an abandoned building, which the bad guys would then collapse on top of the PCs, followed by unleashing this delicious bit of nightmare fuel. Enjoy!
HORRIBULOUS RAT SWARM CR 10
N Tiny animal (Colossal swarm)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +5
DEFENSE
AC 16, touch 16, flat-footed 12 (+3 Dex, +1 dodge, +2 size)
hp 180 (24d8+72)
Fort +17, Ref +17, Will +12
Defensive Abilities swarm traits (half damage from weapons)
OFFENSE
Spd 30 ft., climb 15 ft., swim 15 ft.
Melee swarm (5d6 plus disease)
Space 30 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks disease, distraction (DC 27)
TACTICS
Before Combat The rats are pacified by the wererats’ empathy until the collapse of the building is triggered.
During Combat The swarm attacks all living things except wererats, climbing and even leaping to reach creatures and crawling through the rubble to attack buried creatures (though buried creatures take only half damage). The swarm moves every round, using Lightning Stance and Wind Stance.
Morale When the rat swarm is reduced to less than 30 hit points, the surviving rats break up into 1d4 normal rat swarms. They will continue to attack prone, stunned, helpless, or nauseated creatures but otherwise will flee.
STATISTICS
Str 2, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 2
Base Atk +18; CMB -; CMD -
Feats Ability Focus (distraction), Acrobatic Steps, Dodge, Fleet (x3), Iron Will, Lightning Stance, Nimble Moves, Mobility, Step Up, Wind Stance
Skills Acrobatics +22, Climb +14, Perception +5, Stealth +15, Swim +14
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Disease (EX) Filth fever: Swarm—injury; save Fort DC 25; onset 1d3 days; frequency 1/day; effect 1d3 Dex damage and 1d3 Con damage; cure 2 consecutive saves.
Consider the Rat Swarm yoinked!!!
I'm not trying to be a jerk about this... but some people are really not interested in Bo9S arguments. I'm one of them.Seconded. Thirded. Good gods of Golarion TIMES INFINITY FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!!!!
Ahem. <Steps atop soapbox>
I was 100% cool with threads dedicated to the Bo9S. Makes sense, you'd debate the book in those threads. But now? Would it be possible to lock ANY and ALL threads related to Bo9S?!??!? Pretty, pretty please?!?!?
I mean, seriously, aren't there, I dunno, WotC forums where people can debate this crap?
In case you Bo9S fans haven't noticed: IT AIN'T OPEN CONTENT!! It'll NEVER be officially supported in the PFRPG! EVEN IF PAIZO WANTED TO -- WHICH THEY DON'T!!!
<resumes smacking of forehead against brick wall after finding yet another thread poisoned by people too thick to realize that some people don't give a kobold's ass about the Bo9S...>
<Steps off of soapbox>
Friendly suggestion: While you're out there Googling the Open Content status of the Bo9S, try searching "Threadcrapping" while you're at it...
There is a thread on it now that has been revived. Hopefully the argument goes that way. I am interested in what types of evil things my players will have to deal with.
@James: Do you have anything really evil book 3?
