|
Oh god, what should I do this turn. I guess I could full attack...ooops nope that enemy moved away. I guess I'll just move after him and attack.
*does 45 damage*
*wizard kills/disables 5 enemies, wizard's conjured pet kills 1*
*cleric hits enemy for 97 damage and blinds him while surviving all fort/will saves, and tanks damage from reflex saves*
*fighter fails will save, is now asleep/dominated/stunned/charmed/blinded/etc.*
*fighter's player goes off to play video games until his party finishes the fight and brings his PC back*
Yeah, I guess it is kind of simple. Wouldn't want the complexities of actually participating in high level games.
I would suggest that a boring high level fighter is the player's fault, or maybe the DM's for only letting the fighter be a tank. In either case not the fault of the rules themselves. This is especially true in PFRPG, where fighters have enough feats to take "flavor feats" and not just the required ones (Eocus, Specialization, etc...)
Aout Bot9S: I like it, but think that like so many late 3.5 stuff, its better in games that focus on it.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
|
Some of your 20th level fighter options:
- exhaust, stun, or blind a foe with a critical hit, something they'll potentially do every round if they full attack
- hit (potentially) everyone within 10 feet with whirlwind attack, lunge, and probably power attack
- make it harder to cast defensively near them, get a free attack when the caster blows that check, and keep close to them when they 5-foot step
- crit on a 17-20 for x4 damage with the right weapon choice (and in general, do nastier crits than anyone else with any weapon), which with weapon training and greater weapon specialization is likely to be in the vicinity of 4d8+84 damage (based on a 24 Strength fighter with a +5 one-handed weapon). He'll have four chances to crit with a full attack and no haste, and the attack bonus to hit at least twice a round on average. If hasted, you're looking at a crit every other round on average, with every crit being worth potentially a full round of hits. No need to confirm those crits for a 20th level fighter, it's automatic.
- almost no penalties for wearing heaving armor, giving fighters one of the better ACs in the game without sacrificing speed
- DR 5/- isn't a bad thing either
I've used a lot of high level NPC fighters against my Crimson Throne party. They're chainsaws, in their own way even deadlier than barbarians.
|
Some of your 20th level fighter options:
<snip>
Problem being, few of those are different options. Just add-ons to his existing option of 'hit it with a stick'. He doesn't get to choose when he tries to blind/stun/exhaust an enemy. He already forces the spellcaster to plan ahead if he wants to cast in melee. The armor and DR thing is just lifting original restrictions on him, not new options. The fighter gets very few alternate options besides 'deal damage' and 'deal damage in a different way'.
|
|
I like Bo9s too.
I'd venture to guess that it's a moot point, though, from Paizo's point of view. It's not their intellectual property. It's kinda in limbo, from a production standpoint.
You're right. I could go and post the long analysis that I've seen which basically convinced me that the fighter was a pointless class, but it is moot. I was just surprised to see James call it cheating when nothing in that book is more powerful than the core spells wizards and clerics have access to.
It doesn't really matter what anyone posts. Anything a fighter can do a caster can summon something that does it better. Book of Nine Swords is wonderful.
Plus any fighter worth their salt would have done their best to cover the will save hole. Either take a few feats to boost it or get a magic item (or three) to cover that hole.
Creative Director
|
The Vital Strike feat chain is also invaluable to a fighter, honestly; lets you basically turn your iterative attacks into more damage so you can move and attack and still hopefully do a fair amount of damage on a hit.
Anyway... I'd rather not turn this thread into a "which class is best" argument. There's enough of those threads already.
This thread is for me bragging about the gnarly monsters that are lurking in Kingmaker #6! :-)
|
I like Bo9s too.
I'd venture to guess that it's a moot point, though, from Paizo's point of view. It's not their intellectual property. It's kinda in limbo, from a production standpoint.
You're right. I could go and post the long analysis that I've seen which basically convinced me that the fighter was a pointless class, but it is moot. I was just surprised to see James call it cheating when nothing in that book is more powerful than the core spells wizards and clerics have access to.
It doesn't really matter what anyone posts. Anything a fighter can do a caster can summon something that does it better. Book of Nine Swords is wonderful.
Jason Buhlman reads this thread.
Is sooooooooooo moved he ditches the Advanced Player's guide to immediately come up with 3 new classes:
1) the hospitaller
2) the combat cutting utensil
and
3) the phd of stabbitry
The Vital Strike feat chain is also invaluable to a fighter, honestly; lets you basically turn your iterative attacks into more damage so you can move and attack and still hopefully do a fair amount of damage on a hit.
Anyway... I'd rather not turn this thread into a "which class is best" argument. There's enough of those threads already.
This thread is for me bragging about the gnarly monsters that are lurking in Kingmaker #6! :-)
~wicked smile~ How may Hit Points does it have?
James, you're right. Sorry we took the spotlight off of you, where it rightfully belongs. ;)
I just wanted to make the point that characters are exactly as creative and cunning as their players. To Sean: Disarm the badguy of the +3 Unholy, Vorpal Battle-axe that's killing his friends, Protect his beleaguered spellcaster buddies (Stand Still Feat), harry enemy caster (Disruptive Feat), clear the exit for a tactical retreat (Impr. Overrun or Bull-rush), etc...It basically amounts to the tactical oportunities you choose to recognize and use.
Fighting uber-monsters (like with high AC) just means that the players have to work together better, be smarter, and use more tactics. And Blammo! Were back on topic. And I'll hush.
James, you're right. Sorry we took the spotlight off of you, where it rightfully belongs. ;)
I just wanted to make the point that characters are exactly as creative and cunning as their players. To Sean: Disarm the badguy of the +3 Unholy, Vorpal Battle-axe that's killing his friends, Protect his beleaguered spellcaster buddies (Stand Still Feat), harry enemy caster (Disruptive Feat), clear the exit for a tactical retreat (Impr. Overrun or Bull-rush), etc...It basically amounts to the tactical oportunities you choose to recognize and use.
Fighting uber-monsters (like with high AC) just means that the players have to work together better, be smarter, and use more tactics. And Blammo! Were back on topic. And I'll hush.
Actually, James not reading the Tome of 9 Swords I find worrisome. There's nothing inherently unbalanced in the Tome, and the manuvers are nothing more then every-other-round usable feat equivalents. As a designer, he SHOULD read it...it's actually the most balanced of the splatbooks WoTC put out, because it was basically how they started testing 4E.
And I'd find Vital Strike balanced if you only had to take it once, and it auto-scaled. But I find it annoying Melee people can't do a full attack every round, and missile and spell casters generally aren't restricted to doing 1/2 their dmg if the enemy decides to run around them and not sit their and try to soak a full attack.
==Aelryinth
|
|
Boromir is great when your travelling companions are three hungry hobbits, a comedy relief dwarf, an archer elf, and a wizard who never casts any spells. High level D&D has spellcasters that change the nature of the universe and summon creatures from beyond multiple times in a day. Boromir might as well just get shot full of arrows and die at that point.
Beleaguered spellcasters...yeah right. The spellcasters in every game I've played are the ones who need to wade in and save the martial classes.
Oh well, I'm just going to post the arguments and make my peace. There is nothing bad about a martial class getting abilities that are similar and scale with the powers a spellcaster gets. I'll never understand this deep rooted belief that fighters sucking is totally an intentional feature of the game.
Supposed noncaster advantages
Grapple: Let's take a 10th level fighter, who is able to grapple but isn't completely focused on it. He has 24 strength, and the improved grapple feat, for a grapple check of +21. Besides the obvious ways for a caster to avoid being grappled (Travel Domain, Dimension Door, Fly, Invisibility, any number of other spells).
10th level cleric or wizard: He casts Summon Monster V, summoning a fiendish giant crocodile. It has a grapple of +21. Wizards cast Evard’s Black Tentacles to get +18 grapple in a large area.
10th level druid: Have your allosaurus (grapple +22) or your giant crocodile (grapple +21) animal companion grapple. Cast Animal Growth for added fun, or summon a giant constrictor (+23).
More HP: HP damages is the slowest and hardest way to win a fight. Casters have a number of "save or die" spells (power word kill, finger of death etc.) that immediately end the fight, in addition to a number of "save or lose" that effectively end the fight (sleep, stinking cloud, deep slumber, confusion).
Clerics/Druids: Can heal themselves.
Wizards: Buff spells such as stoneskin, blur, and mirror image prevent them from taking damage in the first place
Longevity: Supposedly, noncasters are better than casters because they can keep fighting after the caster runs out of spells. Ignoring the fact that wands and scrolls can keep a caster going for quite a while, and a druid in wildshape + his animal companion can also keep fighting all day, casters can ALWAYS rest whenever they want to thanks to spells like Rope Trick and Teleport. Even assuming they don't have these spells, continuing to fight when your casters are out of spells is stupid. Would you keep going on if the fighter's weapons were sundered? Continuing to fight when the casters have no spells means the majority of your strength, both in and out of combat, is gone is just bad tactics. The only case in which you would continue to fight would be if there was a time limit that was counting down for something, and in that case wizards are going to be able to go through a fight faster (thanks to save or die and save or lose spells) than a fighter, meaning they have more time! Also with the advent of reserve feats, spellcasters can now fight just as long as any noncaster.
Skills: Some people think noncasters can be better because some of them have more skill points. This ignores the fact that spells make a number of skills useless. What do you need jump or climb for if you have fly and teleport? Why do you need hide and move silently when you have invisibility and silence. What use is open lock when you can cast Knock?
|
Creative Director
|
Actually, James not reading the Tome of 9 Swords I find worrisome. There's nothing inherently unbalanced in the Tome, and the manuvers are nothing more then every-other-round usable feat equivalents. As a designer, he SHOULD read it...it's actually the most balanced of the splatbooks WoTC put out, because it was basically how they started testing 4E.
And I'd find Vital Strike balanced if you only had to take it once, and it auto-scaled. But I find it annoying Melee people can't do a full attack every round, and missile and spell casters generally aren't restricted to doing 1/2 their dmg if the enemy decides to run around them and not sit their and try to soak a full attack.
Turns out I don't have time to read all of the books WE publish, let alone those by other companies. Hell, I haven't read some of the books I helped WRITE for D&D (apart, obviously, from the portions I wrote, since it really does help to read what you write). So, why should my not reading the Book of Nine Swords bother you? :-P
More seriously, though... there are a LOT of books out there to read as far as d20 mechanics go, and I actually do read a lot of them. But I can't read all of them. I have to pick and choose, and I tend to skew that selection not toward player crunch but toward world design, monster design, and other elements that fuel my creativity and ideas where I think they'll be more useful to me—which is the development of our Adventure Path line and the Creative Directing of ALL of our products.
Oh well, I'm just going to post the arguments and make my peace. There is nothing bad about a martial class getting abilities that are similar and scale with the powers a spellcaster gets.
yes there is
it makes everyone the same potentially
there are many other games out there if you wish such a system
....back to more writer boasts and spreading of future terror please....
|
|
Can we talk about PC killing monsters and why JJ should be locked up please? There are several threads debating what you all are all over the intrawebs, for the past SEVERAL years. Feel free to reboot those as you wish.
Oh, and feel free to create ANOTHER thread about why designers should read ALL the D20 books and what not, because I sense that to be the next spam worthy topic about to be spawned.
ehh, so if none of what you've mentioned James is the "final monster"( we all know who she is), what do her stats look like?
|
|
ehh, so if none of what you've mentioned James is the "final monster"( we all know who she is), what do her stats look like?
Actually, I don't think he should tell. I like the feeling I get when my fighter misses with a really high roll. The moment of 'oh dear, I'm going to need to do something fast here!' is awesome. Spoiling encounter stats really isn't that great.
The final villain will be a pushover. Relatively speaking. If they had invited a real dragon (such as myself) to be the final villain instead of a silly little girl, then TPK would have been guaranteed in the surprise round.
Ah well, the Paizo editors have to give the players a sporting chance, I suppose...
|
|
The final villain will be a pushover. Relatively speaking. If they had invited a real dragon (such as myself) to be the final villain instead of a silly little girl, then TPK would have been guaranteed in the surprise round.
Ah well, the Paizo editors have to give the players a sporting chance, I suppose...
Damn Pseudodragons and their inflated egos. :P
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
Well, if people want a bit of amusement, why not. Here, from the files of "Sir Not Appearing in this Film," is one of the BBEG's bodyguards that was cut from War of the River Kings. He's a troll, but not of the internet variety. I present to you: JURRG!!!
JURRG CR 14
Male greater jotunblood (Advanced Bestiary p. 155, template applied twice) troll
CE Gargantuan humanoid (giant)
Init +1; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +12
DEFENSE
AC 34, touch 7, flat-footed 33 (+5 armor, +1 Dex, +20 natural, -4 size)
hp 403 (26d8+286); regeneration 5 (acid or fire)
Fort +26, Ref +9, Will +10
Defensive Abilities rock catching; Resist acid 10, fire 10; SR 22
OFFENSE
Spd 50 ft.
Melee bite +29 (4d6+14/19-20); 2 claws +29 (2d8+14/19-20)
Ranged rock +16 (4d6+14)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 20 ft.
Special Attacks grab, great rend (6d6+21), rock throwing, swallow whole (4d6 bludgeoning damage, AC 20, hp 40)
TACTICS
Before Combat Jurrg typically rests in statue form in between battles. He has been imbued with spell ability and has three spells (CL 7): entropic shield, shield of faith, and shield other. He will cast the latter spell on his master in advance of the party’s arrival, and if he has warning he will use the other two on himself, improving his AC and CMD by 3.
During Combat Jurrg uses Power Attack when making a full attack, but not with single attacks, when he uses Greater Vital Strike to bite, grab, and swallow whole. He will trample large groups of enemies, but if surrounded or faced with ranged attacks he uses statue form after his turn.
Morale Jurrg will fight to the death if his master is alive. If his master is defeated, he will attack that opponent and try to grab his master and shove him through the secret chute in the throne, then fleeing.
STATISTICS
Str 38, Dex 12, Con 32, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 6
Base Atk +19; CMB +37 (+41 grapple); CMD 48
Feats Blind-Fight, Critical Focus, Greater Vital Strike, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Critical (claw), Improved Natural Attack (claw), Improved Natural Attack (bite), Improved Vital Strike, Iron Will, Power Attack, Staggering Critical, Stunning Critical, Vital Strike
Skills Intimidate +16, Perception +16
Languages Giant
SQ statue form
Combat Gear +2 studded leather, ring of energy resistance (minor fire), ring of energy resistance (minor acid)
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Grab (EX) If Jurrg hits with his bite, he can attempt to start a grapple without provoking attacks of opportunity. Unless the target is Large or Huge, he usually uses only his bite to grapple; his CMB is reduced to +21 but he is not considered grappled.
Statue Form (SU) At will and as a free action, Jurrg can turn himself to stone as if using a statue spell, gaining a hardness of 8. He can remain in this form as long as he wishes. As with the spell, he can return to normal form as a free action, act, and then become a statue again as a free action. Entering statue form does not affect his ability to grapple targets or their rolls to escape, though note that his hardness does apply to attacks by a swallowed creature to cut its way out.
Swallow Whole (EX) If Jurrg begins his turn with a creature of up to Huge size grappled, he can swallow the target. On a successful CMB check, the target takes bite damage and is swallowed, taking 4d6 bludgeoning damage per round within Jurrg’s grinding gullet.
That's a pretty creative creature there, and he was cut from the AP! Can't wait to see what was left in.
[a troll after my own heart]
Masterful!
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
It might have been kind of overkill as an encounter, since you had this CR 14 monstrosity, a more combo magic/fighting CR 12 (if I recall correctly) guy with bard levels (so boost everyone's fighting stats) and the following basic attack line:
Melee ranseur +29/+24/+19 (2d6+22/x3); CMB +29 (+35 disarm with ranseur); CMD 42 (44 vs. disarm).
With 20-foot reach and Whirlwind Attack.
Plus the CR 15 BBEG himself who was a crit machine.
Plus a couple of regular cyclops mooks.
Plus waves of CR6 archers.
Cmon... it's supposed to be tough! Am I right? :)
Seriously, glad you liked the monster.
|
Creative Director
|
That's a pretty creative creature there, and he was cut from the AP! Can't wait to see what was left in.
He wasn't cut because he was creative... he was cut because with those stats and templates, if he stayed in the game, he would have been CR 18 at the minimum, and probably more (close to CR 20, in fact, if he gains a weapon and iterative attacks). Which would have made him more powerful than the actual "boss" of the adventure.
Jurrg is a PERFECT example of how one can abuse templates by putting them on exactly the right creature. I'm cool with that... but when one does it, one really SHOULD ignore the suggested CR increase from the template and be honest and apply a proper CR that fits more closely with Table 1–1's expectations. :-P
Having played a character in Jason's games... I can vouch for his skills at precision template application while minimizing technical CR increase!
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
That's a pretty creative creature there, and he was cut from the AP! Can't wait to see what was left in.He wasn't cut because he was creative... he was cut because with those stats and templates, if he stayed in the game, he would have been CR 18 at the minimum, and probably more (close to CR 20, in fact, if he gains a weapon and iterative attacks). Which would have made him more powerful than the actual "boss" of the adventure.
Jurrg is a PERFECT example of how one can abuse templates by putting them on exactly the right creature. I'm cool with that... but when one does it, one really SHOULD ignore the suggested CR increase from the template and be honest and apply a proper CR that fits more closely with Table 1–1's expectations. :-P
Having played a character in Jason's games... I can vouch for his skills at precision template application while minimizing technical CR increase!
For any of you out there playing at home, I'll add that the Advanced Bestiary has lots of neat ideas (requiring a bit of translation to PF), but their CR adjustments really are pretty darn low. Some of those templates are just really hardcore - the demon-possessed and devil-bound ones in particular.
Besides, you're just made about the half-elemental hook horrors and the pseudonatural juju zombie ubues and all those akutenshai kaorti-spawn mooks working for Madreus. But I am telling you, that colchiln-demon-possessed broken soul feral ancient white dragon was TOTALLY LEGIT! Nice and legal... it was all technically correct.
For any of you out there playing at home, I'll add that the Advanced Bestiary has lots of neat ideas (requiring a bit of translation to PF), but their CR adjustments really are pretty darn low. Some of those templates are just really hardcore - the demon-possessed and devil-bound ones in particular.
Dark naga swarm? Ghaele-blessed kraken? A glabrezu-possessed phthisic? An amalgam aboleth/barghest?
...I don't know what you speak of, Mr. Nelson. ;)
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
For any of you out there playing at home, I'll add that the Advanced Bestiary has lots of neat ideas (requiring a bit of translation to PF), but their CR adjustments really are pretty darn low. Some of those templates are just really hardcore - the demon-possessed and devil-bound ones in particular.Dark naga swarm? Ghaele-blessed kraken? A glabrezu-possessed phthisic? An amalgam aboleth/barghest?
...I don't know what you speak of, Mr. Nelson. ;)
Some of those are just SO wrong!
Monsters are fun to tinker with, though. Which leads us to such terrible concepts, those things that should not be.
One such creature lies within...
Hydras!
Aquatic combat!
Swarms!
Poison!
Woohoo!
Stats are the 3.5 "compact" stat block style, but would be easy to convert for those so inclined. I assigned it a CR of 12, but that may have incorporated the fact you'd be fighting it in the water. I could see bumping it down a bit if it were expected to be a land-based monster:
Nexian hydra swarm: CR 12; Tiny magical beast (swarm); HD 12d10+24; hp 90; Init +2; Spd 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 20 ft.; AC 16 (+2 Dex, +2 size, +2 natural); BaseAtk +12; Grp -; Atk Swarm (3d6); Face/Reach 10 ft./0 ft.; SA distraction, noxious breath, poison; SQ darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 22, half damage from piercing and slashing, swarm traits; AL N; SV Fort +9, Ref +10, Will +8; Str 4, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 9.
Skills: Hide +10, Listen +9, Spot +10, Swim +5
Feats: Ability Focus (distraction), Ability Focus (poison), Ability Focus (noxious breath), Combat ReflexesB, Iron Will
Distraction (Ex): Any living creature that begins its turn with a swarm in its space must succeed on a DC 20 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Noxious Breath (Ex): Inhaled (10-ft. aura surrounding and including creature’s space), Fortitude DC 20. Initial damage 1d6 Str and sickened 1 minute, secondary damage 2d6 Str and sickened 1 hour.
Poison (Ex): Injury (swarm), Fortitude DC 20, initial and secondary damage 1d2 Con.
|
Creative Director
|
For fans of the Advanced Bestiary... when my buddy Matt Sernett was working on it, there came a point where he was stumped for some of the templates and I helped him come up with a few of the final ideas. I'm not sure which one of us came up with the idea to put the quadruped template on the succubus, but that decision still delights me as one of the more twisted choices in the book... not necessarily because it's broken or overpowered, though...
I also think I may have tried to get him to use a centaur as the base creature for the sample bipedal template, which would have been kind of funny too, but he resisted. Probably for the best.
For fans of the Advanced Bestiary... when my buddy Matt Sernett was working on it, there came a point where he was stumped for some of the templates and I helped him come up with a few of the final ideas. I'm not sure which one of us came up with the idea to put the quadruped template on the succubus, but that decision still delights me as one of the more twisted choices in the book... not necessarily because it's broken or overpowered, though...
I also think I may have tried to get him to use a centaur as the base creature for the sample bipedal template, which would have been kind of funny too, but he resisted. Probably for the best.
I resisted the urge to use the transforming template on the clockwork bear. Because then it would start to resemble a certain cartoon series. :P
I think the fun for me is taking seemingly bizarre combinations and dream up ways to make them work. I've got some I haven't finished, like a dread vampire chichimec, a dream creature djinni, a "tenebrous traveler" (dread shadow worm that walks). Fun stuff. :D
Edit: There was a devil-bound rakshasa too. I was going to use her in an Eberron game, if I'm recalling correctly...
James, we just can't put that in, can we?
--------------------CENSORED TO PROTECT HEATHY'S PLAYERS------------------
That really is just too mean, oh, it's nasty, I mean nasty....
Slithers away to pester Vaughn.
For fans of the Advanced Bestiary... when my buddy Matt Sernett was working on it, there came a point where he was stumped for some of the templates and I helped him come up with a few of the final ideas. I'm not sure which one of us came up with the idea to put the quadruped template on the succubus, but that decision still delights me as one of the more twisted choices in the book... not necessarily because it's broken or overpowered, though...
I also think I may have tried to get him to use a centaur as the base creature for the sample bipedal template, which would have been kind of funny too, but he resisted. Probably for the best.
I resisted the urge to use the transforming template on the clockwork bear. Because then it would start to resemble a certain cartoon series. :P
I think the fun for me is taking seemingly bizarre combinations and dream up ways to make them work. I've got some I haven't finished, like a dread vampire chichimec, a dream creature djinni, a "tenebrous traveler" (dread shadow worm that walks). Fun stuff. :D
Edit: There was a devil-bound rakshasa too. I was going to use her in an Eberron game, if I'm recalling correctly...
Uncanny Lilith, really...uncanny...
:)
|
That's a pretty creative creature there, and he was cut from the AP! Can't wait to see what was left in.He wasn't cut because he was creative... he was cut because with those stats and templates, if he stayed in the game, he would have been CR 18 at the minimum, and probably more (close to CR 20, in fact, if he gains a weapon and iterative attacks). Which would have made him more powerful than the actual "boss" of the adventure.
Jurrg is a PERFECT example of how one can abuse templates by putting them on exactly the right creature. I'm cool with that... but when one does it, one really SHOULD ignore the suggested CR increase from the template and be honest and apply a proper CR that fits more closely with Table 1–1's expectations. :-P
Having played a character in Jason's games... I can vouch for his skills at precision template application while minimizing technical CR increase!
The problem with such monster is different - one Hold Person or other will save-or-suck spell and it's dead. All the other CR 14 default Bestiary monsters are somewhat protected against such tactics, and this poor Troll is just a big white "Hit me with a Will save, please" target. It would be an overkill to have a CR 18-20 monster that can be taken out by a level 3 character.
Actually, James not reading the Tome of 9 Swords I find worrisome. There's nothing inherently unbalanced in the Tome, and the manuvers are nothing more then every-other-round usable feat equivalents. As a designer, he SHOULD read it...it's actually the most balanced of the splatbooks WoTC put out, because it was basically how they started testing 4E.
And I'd find Vital Strike balanced if you only had to take it once, and it auto-scaled. But I find it annoying Melee people can't do a full attack every round, and missile and spell casters generally aren't restricted to doing 1/2 their dmg if the enemy decides to run around them and not sit their and try to soak a full attack.Turns out I don't have time to read all of the books WE publish, let alone those by other companies. Hell, I haven't read some of the books I helped WRITE for D&D (apart, obviously, from the portions I wrote, since it really does help to read what you write). So, why should my not reading the Book of Nine Swords bother you? :-P
More seriously, though... there are a LOT of books out there to read as far as d20 mechanics go, and I actually do read a lot of them. But I can't read all of them. I have to pick and choose, and I tend to skew that selection not toward player crunch but toward world design, monster design, and other elements that fuel my creativity and ideas where I think they'll be more useful to me—which is the development of our Adventure Path line and the Creative Directing of ALL of our products.
Don't see how reading that book would NOT help contribute to your creativity. Mechanics to give melee more options, how to really make something that resembles a 'School' of fighting, good flavor history that's easy to tweak and update...
I can so totally see Andoran as the center of the White Raven school, Devoted Spirit for Crusaders in the Demon Wastes, etc.
Seriously, pick up a copy and give it a once-over. I'm not saying nitpick every manuver, but the ideas on how and why and what they did dovetail a lot with 1E, 4E, and what people call should be fixed about 3.5 Melee stuff.
I jsut wish they'd given the stuff to the core classes, instead of inventing new ones completely. Ah, well.
==Aelryinth
|
Creative Director
|
Personally, the fact that there are more monsters that an enchanter can actually have an effect on is a GOOD thing. If the PCs, once in a while, get to feel powerful by using a single spell like hold person on a giant to shut down a super powerful monster, that's good. That makes things fun, and it lets players feel like their characters are actually becoming powerful.
That said, we generally try to design our humanoid monsters so that their will save, if it's a poor save, is on par with the poor save category according to table 1–1. A few giants are lower than this expectation, but that's on purpose. Again... to give enchanters and bards and those types of characters a reason to enjoy their class.
Same reason we sometimes put in high CR monsters with unusually low ACs so the fighter types can load up attacks with things like Power Attack and really go to town.
Also note, HP dmg isn't neccessarily the slowest way to kill something...if you can do enough damage! It's the theory behind mega-nuke builds, like Force Missile Mage paired with Arcane Thesis...once you can slam 800 pts of dmg into something reliably, who needs to hit a poor will save?
It's the whole reason behind high level games between optimizers devolving into who goes first, and nuclear rocket attacks.
==Aelryinth.
|
|
James, we just can't put that in, can we?
** spoiler omitted **
That really is just too mean, oh, it's nasty, I mean nasty....
Slithers away to pester Vaughn.
|
|
** spoiler omitted **James, we just can't put that in, can we?
** spoiler omitted **
That really is just too mean, oh, it's nasty, I mean nasty....
Slithers away to pester Vaughn.
http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/outsider/slaad/ssendam.htm
http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/outsider/slaad/ygorl.htm
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
Is it not enough that five different monster types are immune to mind effecting effects.
Must everything have a high will save.The Anti-SoD element is bad enough in most of the game I would believe we could let one stupid giant pass with a +10(which seems relatively good to me).
I guess it really depends on how you play and what monster you face most often. In my experience everything has a high will or fort and is immune to things so people gravitate away from certain spells, classes, etc.
I played a Beguiler from PH2 all the way through Savage Tide... which has an awful lot of things immune to mind-affecting stuff (including creatures afflicted by the Savage Tide), plus a metric ton of creatures with pretty good SR, since there were gazillions of demons, etc. In that campaign, I had to be creative and broaden my talent base or else get sidelined a lot. One of the other PLAYERS, amusingly, thought it unfair that in the game system there were so many situations that would nerf my character; he felt like a player should be able to choose their schtick, and that schtick should WORK. Yknow, that's the character they designed and they should get to play it.
Of course, he's also a big fan of the 4th Ed concept that, for instance, fire elementals are not immune to fire, because that's not fair to people who built their characters around fire damage. But, I digress... :)
The point is, I felt like it was a simple necessity to not put all my eggs in one basket, so I designed a character that had several options for contributing. Sure, I was pretty boss when it came to dishing out the enchantments and illusions, but I had enough other stuff in my utility belt that I never felt at a loss for stuff to do.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
The problem with such monster is different - one Hold Person or other will save-or-suck spell and it's dead. All the other CR 14 default Bestiary monsters are somewhat protected against such tactics, and this poor Troll is just a big white "Hit me with a Will save, please" target. It would be an overkill to have a CR 18-20 monster that can be taken out by a level 3 character.That's a pretty creative creature there, and he was cut from the AP! Can't wait to see what was left in.He wasn't cut because he was creative... he was cut because with those stats and templates, if he stayed in the game, he would have been CR 18 at the minimum, and probably more (close to CR 20, in fact, if he gains a weapon and iterative attacks). Which would have made him more powerful than the actual "boss" of the adventure.
Jurrg is a PERFECT example of how one can abuse templates by putting them on exactly the right creature. I'm cool with that... but when one does it, one really SHOULD ignore the suggested CR increase from the template and be honest and apply a proper CR that fits more closely with Table 1–1's expectations. :-P
Having played a character in Jason's games... I can vouch for his skills at precision template application while minimizing technical CR increase!
That is all true... as long as you only run "big" monsters as solos vs. parties that act in groups. Hold person, for example, doesn't actually harm a creature in the slightest. You still have to be able to go over and attack/coup de grace the target. If the target's friends are keeping you too busy to do that, every round the target gets another save. If the target's allies are using their own abilities to counter your abilities, then you're trading actions... and when mook enemies are tossing off remove paralysis and remove fear and the like, their actions are a lot cheaper than your actions.
Also, this particular creature, if held, would turn itself to stone and just function as a regenerating hit point battery for its master through its shield other spell until the hold effect wore off.
The real point, though, is that in high-level adventure design:
1. Lone NPCs are a bad idea
2. Enemies can have allies
3. Mooks can be effective supports for tough guys
4. One-trick ponies are lame
5. Super-villains team up too
6. Making enemies immune to everything is lame
7. It's not a crime for PCs to kick monster tail sometimes!
The "SoD trumps everything" argument is most true when the above rules are ignored and the PCs are facing off against one uber-villain that can be crushed with one failed save. You just barrage them until they fail one of those saves. Game over.
But, if you have multiple targets (and I mean multiple legitimate targets - one big bad, sure, but at least one or two highly capable lieutenants), whom do you target with your (usually) single-target SoS spell? What do you do when you put them down for the count... and then they get better? What do you do when your super-tactic doesn't work (for any of a hundred reasons)? What do you do if your enemy takes the fight to YOU instead of letting you dictate the terms of the engagement?
If Jurrg was a solo fight for 14th-15th level characters, he'd be a tough cookie as long as his saves held out. After that, he'd take a little time to chop down with hardness, regeneration, and a mountain of hp, but you could take him.
As PART of a bad guy team-up, though, he would be a different proposition for dealing with. He can still be had, certainly; it just presents a different tactical challenge.
** spoiler omitted **James, we just can't put that in, can we?
** spoiler omitted **
That really is just too mean, oh, it's nasty, I mean nasty....
Slithers away to pester Vaughn.
:)
** spoiler omitted **Those are 3.0 conversions, but still, enjoy Heathansson. And I'm sorry, Heathansson's players. Oh. Wait. No, I'm not sorry. Mwah-hah-hah-ha!** spoiler omitted **James, we just can't put that in, can we?
** spoiler omitted **
That really is just too mean, oh, it's nasty, I mean nasty....
Slithers away to pester Vaughn.
:):)