What would be the most likely location for non-evil orc tribes?

[Thanael]

I wonder what the other half is with the half orc population in the duergar city... Are half orcs automatically half human?

[archmagi1]

For half-elves and half-orcs, I like to think the elf and orc override the traits of the other lineage.

[TwoDee]

Thanael wrote:

I wonder what the other half is with the half orc population in the duergar city... Are half orcs automatically half human?

I would imagine that the vast majority of them are half-duergar.

Mikaze wrote:

This is a very interesting catch. I have to admit I never imagined half-orcs comprising any signifigant portion of a free population in Duergar Town. Seeing just how half-orcs fit into that society is something that just begs to be explored now.

There would be a very dark irony too if the warmongering dwarves wound up becoming the "goodly" dwarves of the surface while those that objected to slaughter fell to such lows. Imagine all the twisting turns history must have taken, and how distorted history became for those looking back now.

I'm running a world-spanning campaign where the team is solving a character arc in everyone's homeland--

Spoiler:

(the chelish half-orc sorcerer bastard finding his father in Egorian, the Magnimarian noble cleric returning to oust those who exiled her, the elven monster-hunter tracking down his rogue mentor in Ustalav, the gnome druid going to the River Kingdoms to stop a mysterious blight, and the dwarf ranger rescuing his father from slavery in Hagegraf)

--and, as the dwarf comes last, at the end of the campaign, I'm going to be hard-pressed not to confront him with The Secret History of the Dwarves and the Orcs and see how he handles it.

[thejeff]

TwoDee wrote:

Thanael wrote:

I wonder what the other half is with the half orc population in the duergar city... Are half orcs automatically half human?

I would imagine that the vast majority of them are half-duergar.

Officially, they're half-human. I'd assume a half-dwarf/half-orc would be quite different from the standard half-orc. Assuming the non-orc parent has any effect on the offspring, which it seems like it would.

So yeah, I've got no idea what half-orcs are doing down in the duergar city. Full orcs would probably make more sense.

Or to quote OotS: "Chief Grukgruk half orc too. other half, also orc."

[Matthew Morris]

Here's an amusing thought.

The Half-Orcs come about from the Orcs buying human (and half orc) slaves, and freeing them/adopting them into the tribe.

Yes this gives us the amusing image of the orcs liberating slaves from the dwarven slavers.

(Why are the Orcs doing this? Maybe they are following the tennants of Saranae, or maybe they're just strengthening their bloodlines)

[Mikaze]

@TwoDee: I'm very interested in hearing how that goes down too. :)

Matthew Morris wrote:

(Why are the Orcs doing this? Maybe they are following the tennants of Saranae, or maybe they're just strengthening their bloodlines)

Or maybe both!

The Orc chapter of the ARG didn't have much help in its background section, but the Half-orc section had (almost in complete contradiction to the Orc chapter, apparently written by two different people) the notion of human tribes seeking out peaceful unions with orcs to borrow and bolster their strength. Maybe this could be happening in reverse there.

And then there's angle of how Sarenrae seems to wind up connected to slavery quite often. It's been said that the actual church of Sarenrae in Qadira is more than a little corrupt and compromised, but they're also a big part of arranging for the freedom of slaves through official channels. To what degree and how much of the Sarenraen church is part of the problem there, it's hard to tell right now, but there's definitely some values dissonance at play in that part of Golarion.

One thing I wanted to do with the Nirmathi orcs was play up that kind of values dissonance, partly by having them wrestling with bringing back the tradition of keeping "thralls" as a way of dealing with folks like goblins rather than committing genocide directly or indirectly. It's not a perfect solution and it makes a lot of folks uncomfortable, but some factions within Nirmathas hold that it's the best way to handle the situation.

Maybe it could be a similar case in Hagegraf, except driven more by offering protection paired with the harsh pragmatism needed to survive in the Darklands. "Serve the tribe, stay in the tribe, and the tribe can keep you safe."

There are a lot of ways that could go ugly, but if it's couched in terms of eventually becoming full-fledged members of the tribe or a temporary service while they're being transported somewhere safer, it could be a neat angle to explore.

Of course that service shouldn't include breeding, beyond that that everyone involved wants in on. (I will always support the "Therkla backstory" approach :) )

Thinking on that again, it makes them sound almost like the Dawncult in terms of potential harshness, as far as not guaranteeing safety if one doesn't keep in line; not because they'll do anything to you, but because teh Darklands certainly will.

[Lochmonster]

Maybe there's a remote tribe of orcs that the Gold Dragon (I forget his name) from the Steaming Sea has been trying influence to create a tribe of Lawful Good Orcs. He might pop in every now and then to see how they are progressing and your adventurers happen to stumble across them.

He could even be shapeshifted when he interacts with them so the orcs themselves might be unaware of the manipulation. How will they react? Will the gold dragon try to prevent any player interference? Will he send the players to the orcs to test how they are progressing? Lots of good plot hooks.

Hope my 2 cents was helpful, your idea got me thinking.

[Goreshack]

This is my humble opinion as im still learning about a lit if the geography of golarion. But I think there are a few possibilities. But what seems most likely to me would be pehaps a nomadic tribe or a tribe in the remote desert or jungle. They would be too busy with day to day tasks to be focussed on warfare and also could have not had much contact with other races.

A hunting based society would play into the physical focus of the orcs strengths without making them necessarily evil.

[Matthew Morris]

@Lochmonster

I don't like that idea, in part because I hate the "Aliens did it for us" thing. It works great in Stargate (since the Taur'i did do things w/o the aliens, including kicked their butts off planet) but it takes away the flavor, to me.

Even with my Saranrae option the orcs chose to worship her. I'd just prefer we don't have every civiliazation, good and evil, being an ancient conspiracy.

(Aside: Listening to the series Dr. Who Series 6 soundtrack, I'd prefer the Azlanti 'discover' how badly they're being manipulated and revolt, causing the Aboleth to call down the meteor shower. Kind of like how humanity overthrew the Silence w/o knowing it. Or better still be the 'true history' be the Azlanti calling down Earthfall themselves to give humanity a chance to thrive w/o outside influence.)

[Mikaze]

I have to admit, I've got similar problems with the usual "ancient aliens did Egypt" and related themes.

@Goreshack, that approach would probably fit in perfectly with the idea of Darklands tribes. Some folks had similar notions upthread about putting tribes in hostile zones like the Crown of the World to force them to adapt to that lifestyle or die.

I think there was a bit of that going on with my Nirmathi orcs in their early days that instilled some appreciation for building towards something that would last, though a large portion would still adhere to something of a day-to-day hunting culture.

It feels like a delicate thing to balance though. Forcing them to basically "evolve or die" would curb the worst excesses of orc culture, but that same pragmatism could also potentially get in the way of moral growth as well(kind of like how the Sarenraen Dawncult tends towards neutral rather than good). Then again, certain things beneficial to the survival of the tribe/culture certainly could lean in a positive direction. There's a lot to play around with in there.

[Set]

Building off of the notion that the Shoanti, as an ethnicity, are racially half-orc, having been bred so by the Runelords to make elite shock troops combining some of the advantages of orcs and men into a single servant race, and then continuing on as their own race after the fall of the Runelords, perhaps these new half-orcs, now one of three dominant races in Varisia (with the Varisian humans being more prevalent along the southern coasts, and their orcish 'parents' being scattered warring tribes occupying the upper Storval plateau and points north and east), have now become something of a role model for some neighboring orcish tribes, who have, over generations, adopted Shoanti ways after centuries of hurling themselves against the more disciplined and better armed and armored Shoanti, and coming to respect the strength and stoicism of their half-kin over the repeated failures of their fellow orcish tribes (which they have come to see as that most grievous of orcish sins, weakness).

Since these full-blooded orcish 'Shoanti' would dwell past the traditional Shoanti lands, far to the north of any Varisian settlement, most Varisians would not have the slightest idea that they even exist, barring the inhabitants of Kaer Maga, the farthest south a 'Shoanti' orc tribesman would be seen, and a town in which far, far stranger sights are seen daily.

[Thanael]

This article on the KQ site takes a look at civilized versions of "old hat" monsters, among the the Orc.

While I don't think the new stat arrays are to be recommended (net + is not all that balances an array, ARG did this better) there's some interesting though put into civilized versions of orcs, goblins and kobolds.