13 districts - 9 major = 45 + 4 medium = 32, os 77 + economy roll +1 for stability assuming no unrest. 2 years in, guess that economy is somewhere between 60 & 90, so they should be getting 13-21 from econ roll, so max 99 per turn. Something else must be off to get you into the 130 range.
Isn't it 15 per major, so 9 major = 135 BP ?
OK, to have 9 major items they must have spent a minimum of 504 BP and 14 months of construction:
The cheapest major item producer is the Black Market, which is 50 BP and requires 2 Houses all to itself for another 6 BP. You can build one house per month without it counting against the number of buildings you can build, so the quickest you could build 9 black markets is (2 houses) (1 black market + 1 house) (1 house + 1 black market) (2 houses) (1 black market + 1 house) (1 house + 1 black market) (2 houses) (1 black market + 1 house) (1 house + 1 black market) (2 houses) (1 black market + 1 house) (1 house + 1 black market) (2 houses) (1 black market), or 14 months.
You would also have to spend a minimum of 9 BP on city districts, bringing the minimum BP expenditure to 513. Those 9 black markets produce 9 major, 9 medium, and 18 minor items. That leaves us with 7 medium and 18 minor items in deficit. Given the ratios, I'm actually suspecting that 16 medium items is a typo and they built 9 Magic Shops instead of 9 Black Markets, so we'll go with that. That's 666 BP and 14 months.
I honestly do not see how it's possible to have done this. Assuming the kingdom did absolutely nothing until it could afford a Magic Shop and rolled natural 20's on every Economy and Stability check, it would still have taken ~10 months for that first Magic Shop to be built. Furthermore, I can't see how a kingdom that has spent the entirety of its income in the first two years building Magic Shops has anywhere near the +49 Economy bonus required to be able to automatically sell major items. Even given a +15 bonus from leaders, the Magic Shops themselves only add +9 to that, leaving us with +24 Economy. That's not even enough to be able to sell major items, let alone do so reliably.
to give you a basic run down of how my group is getting that much, they are all casters and the first thing that they made was a casters tower and when ever they could they made another place that made magic items. as well as made more districts so they could sell the magic items that are being created by there city. so right now they have 13 city districts, 9 major, 16 med, 36 minor items. they even payed back the guys that gave them the 50 bp to start with and gave them 60 bp so that the players dont feel like they owe them anything. and yes they take the hit from consumption. they just dont care.
in 2 years? so 24 build chances?
you get nothing for minors, so they dont countsounds awful, awful metamunckinging on all sorts of scales....so are they like 6th lvl with the items of 15th lvl?
to give you a basic run down of how my group is getting that much, they are all casters and the first thing that they made was a casters tower and when ever they could they made another place that made magic items. as well as made more districts so they could sell the magic items that are being created by there city. so right now they have 13 city districts, 9 major, 16 med, 36 minor items. they even payed back the guys that gave them the 50 bp to start with and gave them 60 bp so that the players dont feel like they owe them anything. and yes they take the hit from consumption. they just dont care.
Things like this is why I didn't give my players the full rules. Its horrible metagaming. As far as an in game solution, if they constantly don't have enough farms to feed their people I'd raise Unrest every month. the people working at the Caster's Tower, Magic Shop etc aren't going to like not having food for their families.
Things like this is why I didn't give my players the full rules. Its horrible metagaming. As far as an in game solution, if they constantly don't have enough farms to feed their people I'd raise Unrest every month. the people working at the Caster's Tower, Magic Shop etc aren't going to like not having food for their families.to give you a basic run down of how my group is getting that much, they are all casters and the first thing that they made was a casters tower and when ever they could they made another place that made magic items. as well as made more districts so they could sell the magic items that are being created by there city. so right now they have 13 city districts, 9 major, 16 med, 36 minor items. they even payed back the guys that gave them the 50 bp to start with and gave them 60 bp so that the players dont feel like they owe them anything. and yes they take the hit from consumption. they just dont care.
No. That is why consumption takes its toll on your ecconomy. You are trading resources for food from other countries. Merchants are shipping in grain because there is a market. As long as your ecconomy is thriving, they will keep coming.
Merchants are shipping in grain because there is a market. As long as your ecconomy is thriving, they will keep coming.
See, I personally disagree with this. Where is all that grain coming from?
Also, if all of your food is being shipped in that gives foreign powers a great deal of control over you. Raising the prices to ship you grain, threatening to cut off the supply, raiding caravans, etc. The kingdom should be able to stand on its own otherwise it mine as well be just another city under control of Restov. Again, this is my personal opinion and I recognize that the right way to play the game is whatever is fun for the group.
I think we're getting to an essential flaw in the rules as they stand here, that they support a magic item-based economy as the optimal way to go, rather than a food & resources based economy. As the rules stand, PCs usually seem to find the sure fire method for making BP in magic-item generating buildings; after that, farms, smithies, granaries & mills (amongst others) quickly take a back seat, when these should be the cornerstones of any settlement.
wow a lot of talk about my post. i have a few things to respond to for all of you.
1 it was just a question of what the system was meant to handle in terms of bp generation per month.
2 what i posted was not the only things that my players did just the info that mattered for bp generation,
3 the players are all wizards so they made a kingdom that wizards would want to make with the rules as they stand.
4 there are cheaper ways of getting major items then just a black market,ie making a market or academy that half's the cost of making a black market or magic item shop, in that city.
5 yes i did misunderstand a rule, that the number of buildings per turn were for the whole kingdom, not per city. but my players never made any buildings that added magic items more then they were able to in a given month.
6 my players kingdom has three citys, elkrun, oleg town, and stag fort. at 23 hexes, 18 farms, 14 roads, 11 buildings that make magic items out of, 56 buildings total,
7 for those of you that want to know the build order as it stands without taking away my mistakes or house rules here it is and you will see that it is not meta gaming hopeful.
2 -1 consumption -1 claim -2 farm -1 district -3 house – 8 shop +4 bp +4 selling (11) event disaster.
3 +1 bp -1 consumption -1 road -1 claim -2 farm -3 repair house +6 bp +10 sell (20)
4 -1 claim -4 farm -1 road -1 district -6 tannery +8 bp +10 selling +2 event(27)
5 +1 bp -1 claim -4 farm -1 road –1 district -6 library -10 inn -3 house +8 bp +12 selling (24)
6 +1 bp -1 claim -4 farm -1 road -4 dump -6 smith +6 bp +12 selling assassin attempt (27)
7 +1 bp -1 claim -1 road -2 city district -4 brothel +6 bp +20 selling (46)
8 +1 bp -1 claim -1 road -4 farm -27 castle -3 house +9 bp + 20 selling (40)
9 +1 bp -1 claim -4 camp -2 road -11 town hall +10 bp +20 selling +4 stability event (53)
10 +1 bp -1 consumption -52 academy +9 bp +20 selling (31)
11 +1 bp -1 consumption -1 claim -4 camp -2 road -4 district -16 temple +11 +20 selling (34)
12 +1 bp -4 consumption -2 claim -4 farm -1 district -1 road -6 mill -6 brewery +10 bp +38 selling (40)
13 +1bp -4 consumption -1 -2 farm -34 magic shop +10bp +40 selling (50)
14 -4 consumption -4 district -16 pier +10 bp +53 selling +10 event (99)
15 +1bp -6 consumption -1 claim -1 road -90 waterfront +13 bp +76 Selling (90)
16 +1bp -7 consumption -2 farm -40 arena -14 garrison -2 graveyard -4 shrine -10 herbalist -3 house +13 +76 selling (98)
17 +1 bp -8 consumption withdraw -6 bp (12,000) -58 cathedral -24 theater +12 bp +78 selling (91)
18 +1 bp -8 consumption withdraw -12 (24,000) -24 noble villa -14 luxury store -4 district -10 tradesman -3 house -60 paid of original +14 +68 selling (25) paid original off
19 +1 bp -13 consumption -12, 2 teleport circles +11 +78 selling (89)
20 +1 bp -4 farm -13 consumption -11 my item withdraw -12 (24000) -2 brothel -8 castle walls -8 castle walls -12 watchtower -2 park -3 monument selling income +21(138) -1 claim
21 +1 bp -2 consumption -2 claim -4 farm +10 toll dead -6 brewery for giant -30 (2 caster towers) -34 magic shop -6 (2 houses) withdraw -6 bp (12,000) -20 bp research -4 bp change dragon race -1 troll regen selling +94 income +19 (145)
22 +1 bp 0 consumption -2 claim -4 farm -1 dragon age -30 troll blender -26 dragon roost-35 research -28 (2 luxury house) -6 houses -7 jail income +20 selling +101 (123)
23 +1 bp 0 consumption -2 claim -8 farm -60 magitorium -12 bp research withdraw 6 (12000) income +22 selling +101 (152)
24 +1 bp 0 consumption -2 claim -4 farm -60 magitorium -6 bp (12,000) withdraw -60 bp research -8 roads -15 house of reps income +21 selling +107 (148)
research is how the i let my players make new buildings, i set the stats for what they do and cost, they give the flavor text basically. also my players are a bit messed up so they got the green drake promised that they would make it into a green dragon in exchange for it to live in the lake, the troll blender is how they feed the dragon, trolls regenerate and they dice them up and feed it as a supplement to the dragons diet. yes i know trolls don't work that way but house rules.
7 things
Well that's the great thing about the rules, they allow for all kinds of different kingdoms. You can have a Wizard centric kingdom while someone else might have a kingdom ruled by Clerics and focus more on religion than anything else. Every kingdom will be different. I see no problem with how your players built their kingdom, just means you might have to be a bit more creative to adapt challenges to them. For example: instead of a food shortage, there could be a shortage of crafting materials. Eventually every kingdom gets into ridiculously high numbers, y'all's just got there sooner than most.
And to clarify, my earlier post was not directed at your PC specifiably but then general idea of "hey, here's how to break the system, lets do it"
I think we're getting to an essential flaw in the rules as they stand here, that they support a magic item-based economy as the optimal way to go, rather than a food & resources based economy. As the rules stand, PCs usually seem to find the sure fire method for making BP in magic-item generating buildings; after that, farms, smithies, granaries & mills (amongst others) quickly take a back seat, when these should be the cornerstones of any settlement.
And this is where the term 'sandbox' comes in. Nothing stops the GM from saying, "Hm...all your food is coming from Restov, and now they have their own troubles and are no longer exporting. Guess you'll have to get all your food from the River Kingdoms. Have your cleared the trade routes? Good, so it should only be triple or quadruple price."
If the players have built a vastly unrealistic structure, a GM should feel free to hammer them on it, from food shortages to loss of population (as people without magical training realize they have no place in the economy, and resettle to kingdoms where their skills have value).
Your meant to fill up a city district before filling a new one, so this freakish city/cities that are producing 9 major items in different districts is completely against RAW and RAI.
So everyone else, don't feel like your kingdom is sub-par or something :)
While I will be making my players fill up at least half of each district, I see nothing that says you must fill it at all before making a new one.
I don't think there's a problem with small settlements - the way the rules are set up they handle smaller villages, towns & waystations (such as roadside inns) admirably. A settlement with an inn & stables (plus prerequisite housing) as the only structures in your "city" should be perfectly fine. The troubles seem to kick in over the structures that produce magic items and the idea that what seems to basically be an exploit is the most effective way to finance building up your kingdom. One can't really condemn the players for taking such a route - it's an optimal strategy, after all. It's not a strategy that my group is following though, steeped as they are in doing a little historical research and trying to build their city along such lines. Thus they scratch their head and wonder why they can barely keep their kingdom's head above water focusing on crops and a traditional medieval economy, while other kingdoms thrive in the magic-item factory market (once again, no fault to those who play it that way - RAW, it's an effective way to go).
In my own game, I'm considering implementing the following changes:
- Allow stacking farming hexes with settlements. Treat "Farm" as a hex template that can be applied to any hex sharing (or within one hex of) a settlement. This allows for a more centralized populous, and encourages a more traditional medieval model of settlement.
- Add a -1 Consumption modifier to food-modifying structures such as Granaries & Mills. THis makes them far more attractive to pcs, especially in the early days of their construction, again focusing their kingdom designs on feeding their people, especially if their planning on building larger, multi-district cities.
- Reexamining the DCs for how magic items are sold. Never mind that most kingdoms past their adolescence can usually beat such DCs without much trouble, I have to ask who's buying this stuff, and if they have such financing to stir up the economy, what's stopping them from stepping in and taking over (other than lack of interest). I'm not sure of the answer yet, but treating a "1" on the check as a start for a powerful adversary deciding to step in and meddle in kingdom affairs (either as a high level npc, perhaps using avg pc level +3 as a guideline, or using the bp that could have been earned instead to place that amount worth of armies moving in towards the settlement in question) as a start.
These sorts of changes should be less game-breaking as they lessen the bp being spent, rather than increasing the extra bp being generated each turn. As a Duchy, my pc's kingdom already can beat the DC for being able to sell off major magical items, presuming they had structures to do so in their 4 or 5 cities. But they don't, instead struggling with crippling consumption costs (and thats with 12+ farms).
I understand the game is a "sandbox," but that has little to do with the debate over the rules. In most incidents the rules play quite well for players wishing to build their cities any which way. Given page limits in the AP, I think they give us a great start, but if they get revised into a longer book (as I have heard so intimated here in the forums) the discussion over food vs. magic-item based economies should really be part of that review and revision cycle.
I've been struggling with the magic item selling rules for kingdoms for a few weeks now and just can't wrap my mind around it. The kingdom gets build points by increasing their economy stat. Which makes sense. But somehow they get bonus BPs from businesses in their kingdom that sell magic items. And only businesses that sell magic items.
Let's look at the Caster's Tower, a common first purchase for min/maxing players. This home/laboratory for a spellcaster allows the party to sell off 1 medium magic item per month for 8 BPs. 8BPs ~ 32,000gp. It takes the caster 32 days to create a magic item worth 32,000gp. It also takes 16,000gp in materials to create. Finally, the spellcaster is probably level 12 or higher (based on +4 armor).
Now every month, this level 12 caster spends 16,000gp of his own money and uses the whole month to create one magic item which he sells for 32,000gp. The party of level 4 PCs come by at the end of the month to levy a 200% tax - taking all 32,000gp to turn into 8 BPs. Problem 1 - no business is going to operate out of a city with a high tax rate, especially not where they lose money. Problem 2 - no business is going to put up with high taxation where only their business (magic items in this case) is being taxed. Problem 3 - the high level caster should squash the PCs like the arrogant bugs they are for trying to extort his business.
My PCs finished their first year of kingdom creation without any magic item buildings (I'm keeping the Kingdom rules hidden until they are discovered/needed), but I expect them to get a building with magic items in the next session or two. For a quick and dirty fix to the magic item selling rules, I think I'll drop the BPs for selling magic items and change it to a bonus to the economy check, applied after the check succeeds. Probably +3/+8/+15 for minor/medium/major items. It still churns the magic items and still gives some bonus BPs, but hopefully prevents the kingdom from turning into a magic item BP generator. It also means winter effects will apply (house rule - divide by 10 instead of 5 when generating income during winter months).
we have done neither any house-ruling nor looking to deep to try and make it all make sense
if +3 items are flying off the shelves just assume an adventuring party has been in and bought, and in the process stocked up with other stuff from mundane to minorish, as well as staying in the best inn, best brothel, best wine, paid tithes, paid bards for tales, use the library, etc etc and all his generates income for the kingdom in term of BP's.
also we stopped specificially rolling waht the items where because
a) it makes no real sense as folks have outlined
b) the party never have the 32000gp to buy them!!
I've been struggling with the magic item selling rules for kingdoms for a few weeks now and just can't wrap my mind around it. The kingdom gets build points by increasing their economy stat. Which makes sense. But somehow they get bonus BPs from businesses in their kingdom that sell magic items. And only businesses that sell magic items.
Let's look at the Caster's Tower, a common first purchase for min/maxing players. This home/laboratory for a spellcaster allows the party to sell off 1 medium magic item per month for 8 BPs. 8BPs ~ 32,000gp. It takes the caster 32 days to create a magic item worth 32,000gp. It also takes 16,000gp in materials to create. Finally, the spellcaster is probably level 12 or higher (based on +4 armor).
Now every month, this level 12 caster spends 16,000gp of his own money and uses the whole month to create one magic item which he sells for 32,000gp. The party of level 4 PCs come by at the end of the month to levy a 200% tax - taking all 32,000gp to turn into 8 BPs. Problem 1 - no business is going to operate out of a city with a high tax rate, especially not where they lose money. Problem 2 - no business is going to put up with high taxation where only their business (magic items in this case) is being taxed. Problem 3 - the high level caster should squash the PCs like the arrogant bugs they are for trying to extort his business.
My PCs finished their first year of kingdom creation without any magic item buildings (I'm keeping the Kingdom rules hidden until they are discovered/needed), but I expect them to get a building with magic items in the next session or two. For a quick and dirty fix to the magic item selling rules, I think I'll drop the BPs for selling magic items and change it to a bonus to the economy check, applied after the check succeeds. Probably +3/+8/+15 for minor/medium/major items. It still churns the magic items and still gives some bonus BPs, but hopefully prevents the kingdom from turning into a magic item BP generator. It also means winter effects will...
Jason Nelson answered your concerns in a post in the Rivers Run Red thread. Here is what he had to say:
BPs also represent not only material resources but also productive activity. Take the example above. Rex is going back and forth between East City and West City as a go-between. Some of his business exists in between the cracks of the system (i.e., hundreds of penny-ante transactions that don't show up by themselves on any BP ledger sheet), but he and a dozen other merchants just like him are plying the roads and marketplaces of your kingdom working the low-grade item trade. They also are information brokers, making business connections. Think of them as headhunters, making a profession out of connecting potential buyers with potential sellers.
They are spending dough working the inns and markets looking for customers and clients. The inns and markets profit, because they're throwing money around on rounds of drinks and food and rooms for themselves and their guards (essentially, advertising). When they actually *DO* find a customer, they work with individual suppliers to connect them. Then merchants get into the picture to transport the goods. Then they hire guards and buy wagons and horses, and those guards need equipment, and now that those guards have equipment they, after they finish their first contract, can find other work with other merchants.
All of this spawned from that wand of bull's strength you rolled up, to get it from point A to point B, there is a teeming hive of economic activity associated with that transaction and implied transactions just like it... that economic activity moves the gears of your society and builds up BP worth of resources.
Now, you could argue it's just money changing hands, and nothing is really getting BUILT. Well, if you must then presume imports of good and services, new settlers attracted by the vibrant economy, foreign traders bringing in new goods and services to try to get in on the action.
The fact that the magic item transaction system relies on specific, discrete, tangible items is the glaring exception to the otherwise nicely abstracted BP system, because it keeps drawing the eye back to the idea of "BP = GP = specific tangible goods." It's not.
Accept the particular items as representative of the general trade that is happening and the BP produced by their "sale" as more an aggregate "economic stimulus that comes from selling these kinds of items, of which this ONE was a particular example."
Hopefully this will give you a better idea.
BP =/= GP. You can't store them in a vault. They aren't cash.
BP = the goods, resources, activity, effort, and output of everybody in your kingdom, from Farmer Frank's ant farm in Hex G-8 to Jennifer's Jewels and Luxury Shop in your capital city.
You (the kingdom rulers) are not selling a physical item (the magic item you rolled up) that belongs to someone else (Diana the wizard in the Caster's Tower on Vine and 2nd Avenue) resulting in cash to you (BP).
Instead:
You (the kingdom rulers) are overseeing and managing the economy of your kingdom, including trade in magic items (such as, the magic item you rolled up) that was created by people are a part of your kingdom (Diana), and their economic activity increases the wealth and success of your kingdom and its people as a whole (BP).
Mandor, I think part of the problem is that you are assuming all of the BP in the ecconomic check is from taxes and money entering the country's coffers. Its not. Like the post above says, its from the ecconomic activity associated with that 1 purchase. That mage spent 16K to make that 32K magic item. All that money entered your ecconomy into varrious people's hands, with a small tax. That money is then spent but those people, and is also taxed. The people they buy from, spend the money and it is taxed. All down the line, that money will be in the system for years and will be taxed with each transaction. In general, every $1 spent on a good increases the economy by $1.50 because the money is spent over and over again. Realisticly, this BP should be more spread out, with some of the gain when he starts purchasing things for his crafting and others when he spends that money he just made. The system doesn't really do that though, just like castles being built in a month.
I do like your solution of adding to the ecconomy check instead of flat out BP. If I did that though, I think I would remove the restriction of 1 magic item per city. That is personally my least favorite part of it.
I am planning on putting in a restriction on the higher level magic item buildings that firs they must get someone to actually set up shop there. High level characters aren't going to just pick up shop and move to the middle of nowhere. Once they meet the first couple though, more will come, so it will be easier and eventually I will remove the restriction.
Good replies but I think Mandor also had a good point: Why are the BP rules for buildings related to magic different than the BP rules for any other type of business? That seems to be the source for all the confusion.
I'd change those buildings to simply provide a boost to Economy like every other trade building does (and not as high as Mandor suggested). I'd keep the "magic item creation" of it just to provide things the players may want to purchase.
PS: The rule of divide by 10 in the winter is a great idea as well.
I'd keep the "magic item creation" of it just to provide things the players may want to purchase.
As I recall, that - in a nutshell - is what the magic item generating buildings are primarily for. An optional source for pcs to buy items otherwise beyond their kingdom's grasp. The struggle seems to be over the mechanics of it, and how as it stands pcs aren't using it so much as an option to equip themselves but to rake in the BPs.
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I think the problem is that the mechanism for selling magic items (as many have pointed out) is not balanced with how the other buildings benefit a kingdom.
Since others have mentioned converting them to an Econ bonus, here's a brief comparison on how they work currently:
If you have at least a +18 Econ bonus (which is reasonable even very early on in kingdom building) then selling a minor item provides 2BP which happens on anything but the roll of a 1 since the DC is 20. So, the average increase is 1.9
When you make your economics check at the end of a month, your income is 1/5 of the result of the roll. So, if your income was increased by 1.9 that's equivalent to a +9.5 on the economy check assuming you would have made the check in the first place.
That means that once you have about +18 on your Econ check with a reasonably low command DC, the net effect of a building which produces a minor item is equivalent to an additional +9 or so to your econ roll.
Thus, something like a shrine:
Shrine (8 BP): A small shrine or similar holy site. 1 minor item; Loyalty +1; Unrest –1
is equivalent to:
Shrine (8 BP): A small shrine or similar holy site. Economy +9; Loyalty +1; Unrest –1
which definitely seems out of whack compared to similarly priced buildings.
Things get even worse for medium and major items since they can provide the equivalently higher bonuses of +38 and +71.25 respectively to your Econ check. Of course, you can only make use of one per district but this isn't hard to circumvent either.
A possible solution might be to give a static bonus to the econ roll based on items available in each district.
For each district which contains a major magic item, add +5 to your econ roll
For each district which contains a medium magic item, add +3 to your econ roll
For each district which contains a minor magic item, add +1 to your econ roll
I may even allow these to stack. Having all three is still slightly *worse* than the current effect of a single minor item.
I would also have that the items sell with a particular probability each month which would allow the PCs the chance to buy things they want if they come available.
I'd keep the "magic item creation" of it just to provide things the players may want to purchase.As I recall, that - in a nutshell - is what the magic item generating buildings are primarily for. An optional source for pcs to buy items otherwise beyond their kingdom's grasp. The struggle seems to be over the mechanics of it, and how as it stands pcs aren't using it so much as an option to equip themselves but to rake in the BPs.
Quite right. A city's Base Value caps at 16,000 GP. Without magic items being generated by buildings, no PC would be able to purchase those 32K (or greater) items. With random items being generated, the opportunity is there for that Sword of Super-Hooptie to become available for purchase. The kingdom can keep selling all those +2 Halberds that randomly generate until something comes up that they like. If you only grant bonuses to Econ, PCs wouldn't be able to find those nice purchases (unless the DM decided that Restov or another city happened to have one in stock).
My players are only in their 10th month of kingdom building, but I haven't discovered any issues with BP management so far (they're consistently riding at less than 20 in a given month, though I'm sure this will eventually rise).
Thus, something like a shrine:
Shrine (8 BP): A small shrine or similar holy site. 1 minor item; Loyalty +1; Unrest –1
is equivalent to:
Shrine (8 BP): A small shrine or similar holy site. Economy +9; Loyalty +1; Unrest –1
which definitely seems out of whack compared to similarly priced buildings.
Things get even worse for medium and major items since they can provide the equivalently higher bonuses of +38 and +71.25 respectively to your Econ check. Of course, you can only make use of one per district but this isn't hard to circumvent either.
I trimmed some of this (see Tem's original post for more context), but I want to highlight this. Thank you Tem for your analysis, it puts in things in perspective for all us houserulers.
Good replies but I think Mandor also had a good point: Why are the BP rules for buildings related to magic different than the BP rules for any other type of business? That seems to be the source for all the confusion.
That's my core problem. I understand that BPs are a representation of economic activity (and I've explained this to my players a few times to reorient their thinking). But the selling of magic items doesn't really fit with this concept whereas it matches the rules for depositing into the kingdom treasury.
A magic item that is created in a tower and sold in a tower would have little effect on the city's economic activity beyond adventurers selling off their loot to pay for an item. Yet the magic item selling rules transforms magic items into more BPs than the whole rest of the kingdom's economy can produce (and spamming magic items becomes the best way to build a kingdom).
And if you cut the magic item sale to just a bonus to econ, why not simplify and say that you are cutting the price for magic items to 1/2/3, which is roughly what would happen.
That was my original thought, but it made more sense to convert to an economy bonus for the income step. First, so that winter would have an effect. Second, to completely divorce magic items from directly converting into BPs.
PS: The rule of divide by 10 in the winter is a great idea as well.
Thanks. I really put an emphasis on winter in my campaign and I've been pleased with the results and how my players have embraced it.
i think i found the answer
the boiling over economy (130 BP per turn) has this building as a house rule:
mageatoruom 60 bp, 3 major items, +4 econ +2 loyalty.
3 major items is mental
Thank you Tem for your analysis, it puts in things in perspective for all us houserulers.
You're very welcome. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like the people at Paizo could benefit from having a mathematician on staff for this sort of thing.
Should they be interested, I happen to know one who would be more than happy to take the job.
i think i found the answer
the boiling over economy (130 BP per turn) has this building as a house rule:
mageatoruom 60 bp, 3 major items, +4 econ +2 loyalty.
3 major items is mental
Yes, but how is that any different than 1 as far as money is concerned? they automaticly regenerate and you can only sell 1 of those 3 per month, so as long as the players are not buying it, it doesn't matter if there is 1 or 30.
Yes, but how is that any different than 1 as far as money is concerned? they automaticly regenerate and you can only sell 1 of those 3 per month, so as long as the players are not buying it, it doesn't matter if there is 1 or 30.i think i found the answer
the boiling over economy (130 BP per turn) has this building as a house rule:
mageatoruom 60 bp, 3 major items, +4 econ +2 loyalty.
3 major items is mental
you can sell more than 1. You can make one Economy check per
city district during each Income phase.if you have 9 districts you can sell 9 majors!!
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You can only sell 9 majors if you have buildings in all nine districts which produce majors. That has been asked and answered on this thread, I believe. You can only sell from a district what has been produced in that district. So as Caineach said, it makes no difference if they have 3 majors coming from one district, except to expand the inventory for PCs to buy items.
I am well aware of that, the issue im referring to is players starting up a second district merely to build a building that produces magical items to increase BP. Rinse and repeat.
You can only sell 9 majors if you have buildings in all nine districts which produce majors. That has been asked and answered on this thread, I believe. You can only sell from a district what has been produced in that district. So as Caineach said, it makes no difference if they have 3 majors coming from one district, except to expand the inventory for PCs to buy items.I am well aware of that, the issue im referring to is players starting up a second district merely to build a building that produces magical items to increase BP. Rinse and repeat.
He was refering to the poster above you. The problem you have is seprate, and one I totally agree with.
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It's disturbing to read about all the min/max metagaming that goes on with the kingdom building. This is an amazing AP and it's a shame to see it ruined by the inability to roleplay.
I was able to give my players full disclosure of the rules for kingdom building, and they still make choices that make sense and keep with the ideas of the characters, rather than whatever looks good in the numbers.
Same. But it makes me sad when the Stolen Land is dotted with magic shops and big, open spaces, even in other peoples games lol.
+2 to those above...thats why its troubling me
Quick Question...
Does the "increases unrest" just mean for that month, or are they permanent?
For example in River Runs Red, the 3rd Event says ...
"each interrogation must be handled
delicately with a DC 20 Diplomacy check—each
failure results in rumors of “unfounded and
cruel interrogations” spreading through the
nation and causes Unrest to increase by 1."
Quick Question...
Does the "increases unrest" just mean for that month, or are they permanent?
For example in River Runs Red, the 3rd Event says ...
"each interrogation must be handled
delicately with a DC 20 Diplomacy check—each
failure results in rumors of “unfounded and
cruel interrogations” spreading through the
nation and causes Unrest to increase by 1."
The Unrest is "permanent", until it is removed (by a building that reduces Unrest such as a Jail, or an Event that decreases it, or by having a Royal Executioner in place)
The Unrest is "permanent", until it is removed (by a building that reduces Unrest such as a Jail, or an Event that decreases it, or by having a Royal Executioner in place)Quick Question...
Does the "increases unrest" just mean for that month, or are they permanent?
For example in River Runs Red, the 3rd Event says ...
"each interrogation must be handled
delicately with a DC 20 Diplomacy check—each
failure results in rumors of “unfounded and
cruel interrogations” spreading through the
nation and causes Unrest to increase by 1."
Ok, so in Event 2...
"Killing him
certainly ends the threat, but if the act is done in public,
the unexpected violence frightens the citizenry and both
increases Unrest by 1d4+1 and [b]permanently[b] reduces Loyalty
by 2."
Why is the word permanent used if these changes are all permanent?
The Unrest is "permanent", until it is removed (by a building that reduces Unrest such as a Jail, or an Event that decreases it, or by having a Royal Executioner in place)Quick Question...
Does the "increases unrest" just mean for that month, or are they permanent?
For example in River Runs Red, the 3rd Event says ...
"each interrogation must be handled
delicately with a DC 20 Diplomacy check—each
failure results in rumors of “unfounded and
cruel interrogations” spreading through the
nation and causes Unrest to increase by 1."Ok, so in Event 2...
"Killing him
certainly ends the threat, but if the act is done in public,
the unexpected violence frightens the citizenry and both
increases Unrest by 1d4+1 and [b]permanently[b] reduces Loyalty
by 2."Why is the word permanent used if these changes are all permanent?
They want you to understand that the Loyalty loss of 2 doesn't go away after a month. It is a permanent -2 that your kingdom will carry with it going forward. Just like a permanent positive gain, such as rescuing the kid the Lizards took.
The Unrest isn't permanent, it can be removed as I said above.
Unrest can be reduced to zero but can not be negative. If you have no Unrest and you build a jail, you still have zero Unrest.
Creative Director
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The problem with the BP farming, multiple empty district cities design is that Paizo made a mistake by not defining when you can add districts to a city.
To be honest... I don't think this was a mistake. The rules are meant to be fast and loose, and they EXPECT a GM to be involved in their adjudication. While it's fine to let the players see the rules for kingdom building, it's a mistake to let the players think that they can abuse the rules; the GM is the final law, in other words, and in a case like this the GM should present the building of a kingdom with characters and descriptions to go along with it. Restricting how many districts a group can build is a great house rule, as is penalizing cities made of of mostly empty districts.
As an example: Jason Nelson, who helped me playtest these rules, had a group who decided that the graveyard was the most cost-effective building, so they built a HUGE number of graveyards in their city. That's obviously a weird choice when you build a city, so Jason ruled that the sudden upsurge of graveyards brought with it a pretty hard-core undead problem, and the party had to deal with the undead infestation that was, largely, of their own doing.
If and when we expand upon these rules and put them in a hardcover, the feedback from the past several months is going to be invaluable in including more bits of advice and adjustments like this... but until then, the GM should make sure not to take a passive role in kingdom building. React to what your players come up with or what they try to do, and in most cases it'll enhance your campaign and take it into areas none of us could have imagined.
I recommend the latest episode of Flagons & Dragons podcast for those wanting to get a feel for these scrumptious rules.