Boxed sets used to be very much a part materials/supplements in roleplaying. Finding the large, full color maps, along with maybe cut-outs for towns and other goodies was always nice to go through. I remember three of my favorite being the Menzoberranzen, Dragon Mountain and Myth Drannor box sets.
But when 3rd edition was released, you never saw them anymore. Are they a thing of the past now? Or may Paizo ever come out with something like that again?
Unfortunately, for the most part Box Sets are a thing of the past. From what the folks over at Paizo have said, they cost a lot for not much return. It does suck that we will not get any because I really liked them. ~shrugs~ Oh well. Such is life.
Creative Director
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Boxed sets used to be very much a part materials/supplements in roleplaying. Finding the large, full color maps, along with maybe cut-outs for towns and other goodies was always nice to go through. I remember three of my favorite being the Menzoberranzen, Dragon Mountain and Myth Drannor box sets.
But when 3rd edition was released, you never saw them anymore. Are they a thing of the past now? Or may Paizo ever come out with something like that again?
Boxed sets are prohibitavely expensive, since there's so many components to a boxed set (it's more expensive, for example, to print 3 96 page books than one 288 page book). They take up a lot more room so it takes more resources to ship and print them as well. Overproduction of boxed sets may have had a hand in why TSR went bankrupt; the rumor was that (using the Birthright boxed set as an example) the production costs for a boxed set were so high that it effectively COST the company to sell them at the prices they were selling them at.
And inflation means that things wouldn't get cheaper.
We've looked into doing boxed sets, and we KEEP looking into doing them. As Paizo gains more resources, the idea of publishing a boxed set gets closer and closer to reality, but the last time we ran the numbers, it ended up looking like a boxed set on par with, say, Dragon Mountain would need to be priced well over $100.00 for us to not lose money on it (I want to say we came to a conclusion that such a set would need an MSRP of something like $250.00, but I could be mis-remembering).
They're expensive, in other words. :(
Can't find the thread now, but people at Paizo have commented that boxed sets are not economically viable. Their production value is too high for the ammount that they can realistically sell them for. Most people aren't willing to pay over $100 for a boxed set, but the production costs could be even higher than that per box.
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Creative Director
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I hear you, and I'm sure we'd all rather you continue to publish cool products than go bankrupt on a box set.
What about some sort of middle ground? A digital boxed set? Publish a physical book and sell it for a percentage more than normal (what that % is you math and finance whizzes would have to find out) and then make additional content available online or on a cd.
PDFs of maps, NPC and Monster cards, notes to party members for in-game secrecy, back story, etc would be pretty cool and I would pay extra for it.
You'd still have to pay for the production but the materials, shipping and printing costs would be virtually gone on everything but the book itself.
-Ben
Paizo's not quite ready to fully enter the digital world. We're still as much a print company as a digital one... MORE a print company, in fact. At this point, we don't have the plans or resources or (to be honest) the desire to produce extensive digital offerings. We DO regularly offer Pathfinder Society scenarios as digital only products, though... but if we're going to go through the trouble to produce a boxed-set's worth of content, we don't want to limit that content only to people who want PDF stuff.
I don't care for box sets. I always found them hit or miss. You couldn't really browse them first to see if they are what you want. So some box set were just pure gold for what they contained others were a complete waste of money. It was like a surprise that you buy and you might like or hate it. I much prefer being able to browse a book before a I buy.
Of course with ordering online I still have this same problem but I have to say I have yet to order a Paizo product I didn't like. I can't say the same about Wizards of the Coast products.
Boxed sets are prohibitavely expensive, since there's so many components to a boxed set (it's more expensive, for example, to print 3 96 page books than one 288 page book). They take up a lot more room so it takes more resources to ship and print them as well. Overproduction of boxed sets may have had a hand in why TSR went bankrupt; the rumor was that (using the Birthright boxed set as an example) the production costs for a boxed set were so high that it effectively COST the company to sell them at the prices they were selling them at.
And inflation means that things wouldn't get cheaper.
We've looked into doing boxed sets, and we KEEP looking into doing them. As Paizo gains more resources, the idea of publishing a boxed set gets closer and closer to reality, but the last time we ran the numbers, it ended up looking like a boxed set on par with, say, Dragon Mountain would need to be priced well over $100.00 for us to not lose money on it (I want to say we came to a conclusion that such a set would need an MSRP of something like $250.00, but I could be mis-remembering).
They're expensive, in other words. :(
Ouch! Didn't realize they were that expensive to produce. I can certainly understand if you never go down that route again. If you do so, I would definitely be interested, but if not, then it would be no biggie.
Paizo's not quite ready to fully enter the digital world. We're still as much a print company as a digital one... MORE a print company, in fact. At this point, we don't have the plans or resources or (to be honest) the desire to produce extensive digital offerings. We DO regularly offer Pathfinder Society scenarios as digital only products, though... but if we're going to go through the trouble to produce a boxed-set's worth of content, we don't want to limit that content only to people who want PDF stuff.
And really, I am glad Paizo has taken this stance. I know with the new times a lot is going digital distribution, but I am of the old crowd and prefer something I can hold in my hands. A nicely made harcover book I can actually leaf through, appreciate the design on a glossy page.
I hope that books will always remain your primary distribution.
We've looked into doing boxed sets, and we KEEP looking into doing them. As Paizo gains more resources, the idea of publishing a boxed set gets closer and closer to reality, but the last time we ran the numbers, it ended up looking like a boxed set on par with, say, Dragon Mountain would need to be priced well over $100.00 for us to not lose money on it (I want to say we came to a conclusion that such a set would need an MSRP of something like $250.00, but I could be mis-remembering).I hear you, and I'm sure we'd all rather you continue to publish cool products than go bankrupt on a box set.
What about some sort of middle ground? A digital boxed set? Publish a physical book and sell it for a percentage more than normal (what that % is you math and finance whizzes would have to find out) and then make additional content available online or on a cd.
PDFs of maps, NPC and Monster cards, notes to party members for in-game secrecy, back story, etc would be pretty cool and I would pay extra for it.
You'd still have to pay for the production but the materials, shipping and printing costs would be virtually gone on everything but the book itself.
-Ben
I'll second a vote for something middle-ground-ish! I love the stuff from Necromancer Games that came as a print copy but included an encryption code on the title page of the book that gave you access to maps and extra materials that were downloadable from their site. Lost City of Barakus is a favorite and a great example. Take off some layers to include unlabeled player maps would be an excellent plus, PDFs of artwork that you could print for players *if* you want to, include as PDFs stuff that didn't quite fit into the 128 page hardcover (I think Necromancer did a fair amount of that?). I like the idea and would pay extra for that, too!
They're expensive, in other words. :(
How much of the expense of a boxed set is the box itself? How much cheaper would it be if the material were, say, a hardcover book, and sandwiched between it and a piece of cardboard all the softcover/looseleaf additions, all shrinkwrapped?
My nephew (and now my son, too) is into Playmobil toys, and I know that that company sells a lot of their toys at a huge discount if you buy them bagged instead of boxed.
I'm sure they could save money in putting it in non-box format, but they would want it to look nice and be able to store it as well. If you put it in a baggie, it would be, well, kind of cheap and hard to store.
But from what James was saying the cost is more along the reason of printing multiple colored guides(which is normal for boxed sets) than to print the singular 300-400+ hardcover book that we get now.
I would love to see a box set, but if they do, I would like to see it done right (which I know Paizo would not do otherwise) and I think the cost is just too much from what I am gathering. I did not know they costed that much to make.
Well, if you look up the GameMastery Treasure Chest, which is a module, crit hit deck, item deck, campaign planner, a flip mat and some map cards in a nice shiny box... you'll see they put it out two years ago, did a limited print run of 2,000 (which is very small) and it's still not sold out.
Mind, the Treasure Chest is geared toward GMs only, but it's a pretty awesome collection of stuff. I don't know how well the Treasure Chest did sell, but 2,000 is a small number to try to beat. Considering a lot of players already have the rulebook and the stuff they want/need to play, would a rule boxset really make a lot of money, or would just a small dedicated few buy them--and sure, these small dedicated few will shell out a hundred bucks or two for them--and the rest rot in a warehouse?
(Not to mention, the Core Rulebook is 5 pounds. It's not going to be much lighter paperback. Paizo's going to need adamantine shrink wrap to hold that in with some dice and other goodies.)
Don't get me wrong, I'd love a boxset myself, but I totally see why Paizo isn't going to put one out. (And I gotta say, the last RPG boxset I bought? It was Cubicle 7s Doctor Who boxset, and while the game itself is fun, the box is too small to hold the tokens you get with it after you punch them out, and the cardboard box tore.)
Though maybe in one of my crafty moments, I'll go to the craft store and buy myself a nice big tin or balsawood box, paint the Pathfinder logo on it, and put the Rulebook, Bestiary, and a set of polyhedrals in it, maybe along with a flip mat or two. :) I'd probably save both me and Paizo some money that way. ;)
Though maybe in one of my crafty moments, I'll go to the craft store and buy myself a nice big tin or balsawood box, paint the Pathfinder logo on it, and put the Rulebook, Bestiary, and a set of polyhedrals in it, maybe along with a flip mat or two. :) I'd probably save both me and Paizo some money that way. ;)
Balsa wood? Between the core book and Bestiary alone, you better make that oak. :D
Balsa wood? Between the core book and Bestiary alone, you better make that oak. :D
Though maybe in one of my crafty moments, I'll go to the craft store and buy myself a nice big tin or balsawood box, paint the Pathfinder logo on it, and put the Rulebook, Bestiary, and a set of polyhedrals in it, maybe along with a flip mat or two. :) I'd probably save both me and Paizo some money that way. ;)
Depends on how thick it is, but yeah. I might have to alchemically harden the wood too. ;)
Depends on how thick it is, but yeah. I might have to alchemically harden the wood too. ;)Balsa wood? Between the core book and Bestiary alone, you better make that oak. :D
Though maybe in one of my crafty moments, I'll go to the craft store and buy myself a nice big tin or balsawood box, paint the Pathfinder logo on it, and put the Rulebook, Bestiary, and a set of polyhedrals in it, maybe along with a flip mat or two. :) I'd probably save both me and Paizo some money that way. ;)
Case hardened steel might just be strong enough.
Case hardened steel might just be strong enough.Depends on how thick it is, but yeah. I might have to alchemically harden the wood too. ;)Balsa wood? Between the core book and Bestiary alone, you better make that oak. :D
Though maybe in one of my crafty moments, I'll go to the craft store and buy myself a nice big tin or balsawood box, paint the Pathfinder logo on it, and put the Rulebook, Bestiary, and a set of polyhedrals in it, maybe along with a flip mat or two. :) I'd probably save both me and Paizo some money that way. ;)
Maybe straight for the Adamantine, as I'd recommended to Paizo earlier. I'm sure Michael's carries it. *nod nod*
I wonder if Paizo would consider doing one of the major cities of Golarion as a Boxed set?
I love my 2e City of Greyhawk, and it's wicked convenient with the maps separate and all. I wish that the books were actually 3-hole punched. There's not enough room really to take them apart and 3-hole punch them myself, or I would do it.
I wonder what the cost would be like to just print a pile of material 3-hole punched, with a bunch of (perhaps) un-punched fold-out maps in a cheap-ish (throw-away?) box that gives a high level of detail about a city or interesting region of Golarion? Go buy your own 3-ring binder(s) to organize and separate the material the best way for the way you DM. And/or design the box to be cut up and be used as dividers for the setting? Elsewise, it's creating a tome the size of Ptolus... (which I own, but is less-than-convenient for referencing stuff)
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Creative Director
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They're expensive, in other words. :(How much of the expense of a boxed set is the box itself? How much cheaper would it be if the material were, say, a hardcover book, and sandwiched between it and a piece of cardboard all the softcover/looseleaf additions, all shrinkwrapped?
My nephew (and now my son, too) is into Playmobil toys, and I know that that company sells a lot of their toys at a huge discount if you buy them bagged instead of boxed.
That would be cheaper than a box set, but still quite a bit more expensive than a single book.
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Creative Director
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And again... we do constantly revisit the practicality of doing boxed sets. As we get more robust as a company and can afford to do crazier stunts, and as we start to learn how to make things more efficiently, and as we get more resources, and so on and so on, the possibility of a boxed set increases. I would LOVE to do one. And recent investigations makes me think it's not as impossible or expensive as I feared...
Stay tuned, in other words! :-)
I think it is pretty easy to separate the boxed set into what is worth paying for:
Softcover books
Maps
Handouts?
And the stuff that just adds cost:
The box itself
Plastic bits
Misc throwaways
I would prefer the idea of a large mod like the original Temple O' Elemental Evil with a little map booklet tucked in there. Or something like the Golarian book that includes a folded map. I guess a combination of an adventure path/ setting, with the Map Folio included.
I think it is pretty easy to separate the boxed set into what is worth paying for:
Softcover books
Maps
Handouts?And the stuff that just adds cost:
The box itself
Plastic bits
Misc throwawaysI would prefer the idea of a large mod like the original Temple O' Elemental Evil with a little map booklet tucked in there. Or something like the Golarian book that includes a folded map. I guess a combination of an adventure path/ setting, with the Map Folio included.
The whole issue is the multiple soft cover books is one of the biggest costs, from what James had said. It is a lot more expensive to print several shorter books in color than one big thick book (like the core book).
But maybe it isn't as far-fetched as we think from his most recent post. Either way, if we get a boxed set, great. If not, I won't get too upset about it. As long as they continue to put out the quality of work they are doing now, that is what is important.
I wish that the books were actually 3-hole punched.
Got to say a big no-no on this one. See, here in the UK, 3-hole punched isn't that common (generally we use two holes). For the products I have had that have been punched, they just fall apart because they are designed to be separated, but I have nowhere to store them. Of course, you can get three-holes binders, but is just isn't common and doesn't look right (to me). Sure puts me off buying a product.
Plus most of the Paizo bindings are really good.
Peace,
DoD - Kev'
I don't buy into the cost argument. Companies just don't choose to make them, that's all.
Make 3-4 small Soft Cover books instead of 1-2 big Hardcover ones. Look at Fantasy Flight Games' Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3rd Ed. Boxed Set. It is a recent one, well packaged, and has a SRP of $100.
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And FFG is a much larger company that makes ooodles of plastic components, dice and booklets per month allowing them to get far better rates. Also, they have a zillion of product lines that go to a much more profitable market (board games). That allows them to make a less money-making product once in a while. Paizo doesn't have such a luxury.
I would like to chime in and add to the group who would like campaign books with maps. I envision them wrapped in plastic with a piece of cardboard on 1 side and maps in between a single book and the cardboard. I would really go for something like this.
I would like to chime in and add to the group who would like campaign books with maps. I envision them wrapped in plastic with a piece of cardboard on 1 side and maps in between a single book and the cardboard. I would really go for something like this.
This. Also, coincidentally, if several soft-cover books are more expensive, it works out for me -- I'm not a big fan of them anyway. What I look for in boxed/shrink-wrapped sets is a book (preferrably hardcover), a map (Folded because it's bigass), and a few loose extras (reference charts, punch-out counters, etc.
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This. Also, coincidentally, if several soft-cover books are more expensive, it works out for me -- I'm not a big fan of them anyway. What I look for in boxed/shrink-wrapped sets is a book (preferrably hardcover), a map (Folded because it's bigass), and a few loose extras (reference charts, punch-out counters, etc.
I was beginning to think I was the only person who prefered hardcovers. Maybe I just don't have as strong of a nostalgia bone, but boxed sets don't really do anything for me. And I did start on them, with the BECMI sets. By the time the Rules Cyclopedia came out, I had already moved on to 2E hardcovers, and had no love for boxed sets.
I was beginning to think I was the only person who prefered hardcovers.
Nope, they look better on a bookshelf.
EDIT: Besides, opening one feels more like consulting the Book of Armaments.
I was beginning to think I was the only person who prefered hardcovers.Nope, they look better on a bookshelf.
EDIT: Besides, opening one feels more like consulting the Book of Armaments.
Pratically everyone prefers Hardcovers. Durability and all that.
Btw, how are people reasoning that Hardcovers are cheaper than multiple Softcovers (assuming same content / page count)? The Softcovers should still be cheaper (I buy a lot of book from different hobbies, RPGs to Wargames and my experience has been Hardcovers are expensive, not the other way around).
Btw, how are people reasoning that Hardcovers are cheaper than multiple Softcovers (assuming same content / page count)? The Softcovers should still be cheaper (I buy a lot of book from different hobbies, RPGs to Wargames and my experience has been Hardcovers are expensive, not the other way around).
It is the 3 bindings for the paperbacks versus the one for the hardcover. And as a simple example the Bestiary is $39.99 for 328 pages, and 3 AP's are $59.97 for 288 pages.
I've wondered about the price of boxed sets sometimes. I mean, I've seen a number of boxed board games with rather substantial rulebooks, and they manage to stay reasonable in price (staples work as much cheaper bindings). I'm certain I'm oversimplifying the situation though.
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I've got the Dragon Age box set and I like it.. however, considering the 2 other Dragon Age products are overdue, I can't help but wish a full ruleset had been released. Even without a full campaign setting book, what's been released thus far isn't enough to continue gaming.
Flip it around and let's talk City of Brass. Sword & Sorcery/Necromancer games title for 4e. 430 pages divided by 3 books in black & white. A brown & white (instead of black) mapfolio/handout book. All for the gentle price of $69.99.
Toss both away.. get Ptolus... 672 pages... tons of extras on cdrom.. 1 book. Full color. For a stagger price of $120.
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On the other hand, I could argue that the failure of the GameMastery Treasure Chest is another reason Paizo should NEVER consider doing anything in a box again. However, I loved it and it got me to invest in several things I never would have.
There is a flip to that argument though, and that is the GTC failed because it included too many items available for several months that people were not willing to rebuy. This made the product unattractive and should have included things not yet available. Meaning the GTC should have come out "this month" and everything insider it should have come out stagger between "this month" and next.
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That said, I'll probably pick up the 4e boxset only because I recently finished collecting the original D&D sets 1-5.
I'm torn. So, torn. I LOVE all the Box Sets I've gotten over the years. Heck, I even bought ones I never needed because I loved all the goodies they had. Maps, Player Handouts, Tons of Books some had awesome Audio CDs (Back in the days before DvD) LOVED EM.
Now though, with being an Old Fart, married, mortgage yadda yadda yadda, I don't think I could shell out a C-Note for a boxed set. I'm kinda capped at $50 these days. I can work that into the slush fund in a month or so.
I never got the GMTC as I never saw it on the shelves back when it came out and I tend to have issues with shipping to my 'It's not the End of the World, but you can see it from here' local and only buy from a FLGS these days.
That being said.... If and I mean IF an Age of Worms Box ever hits the shelves I'M ON IT. I never got to finish the bloody thing as I missed the last four or five (not sure the actual number) Mags the AP was in 8( My players and I were bitter. We were having a kicking time with THAT WORMY GOODNESS!
Have Fun out there!!
~ W ~
I've wondered about the price of boxed sets sometimes. I mean, I've seen a number of boxed board games with rather substantial rulebooks, and they manage to stay reasonable in price (staples work as much cheaper bindings). I'm certain I'm oversimplifying the situation though.
Cost of goods diminishes the larger the print run is. A box set may be a feasible option for RPGs with a 20,000 unit print run... but that means a company may sit on 15,000-18,000 copies in a warehouse because they normally only sell 2000-5000 copies of a product. Thus, still a loss overall.
I've summed this up in another post....
If you think about it they are making a boxed set. Soon We'll have the new revised campaign setting hard cover. At the same time a map folio will be released detailing the lands within the setting book. In addition a player's primer is on the schedule. These three books grouped together fill the contents of a box set. The page count is higher. The maps are bigger but the classic formula of GM's book, players book, and maps is all there.
I don't know how many you'd sell but I'd not be put off by a $100-$200 SRP, especially if it came with PDF copies of everything. In essence, the APs are boxless boxed sets without printed goodies like poster maps, etc. MSRP for an AP is $120 (less, of course, if you subscribe or just buy PDFs), not counting the Player's Guide (if sold separately). I think they're well worth the price. If you put a PFRPG-compatible Rise of the Runelords in a box with a couple of big maps, a sihedron medallion, some item cards, etc. I'd pay $250 (maybe more) for it. Question is whether enough of us would do so...
M