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You really want your head to explode? Did the events in First Contact and in Enterprise with the borg actually happen in this timeline? If they didn't, then did Cochran make it to warp on his own?Great. Now I gotta watch the movie again when I go home. *sigh* ;-DCorrect. Even The Original Series would have been overwritten by the destruction of the USS Kelvin. (As, Star Fleet changes from an Exploration service to a more overt Defense Force.)I won't comment on the truth of JMS' story, but it is ironic that Paramount did that to him (if it happened) since CBS essentially was accused of doing the same thing to Roddenberry with Star Trek/Lost in Space.
Edit: Bitter Enterprise thought... Enterprise is the only series that exists in the new movie canon. :-)
SPLAAAAAAAAAAAAAT!
You really want your head to explode? Did the events in First Contact and in Enterprise with the borg actually happen in this timeline? If they didn't, then did Cochran make it to warp on his own?Great. Now I gotta watch the movie again when I go home. *sigh* ;-DCorrect. Even The Original Series would have been overwritten by the destruction of the USS Kelvin. (As, Star Fleet changes from an Exploration service to a more overt Defense Force.)I won't comment on the truth of JMS' story, but it is ironic that Paramount did that to him (if it happened) since CBS essentially was accused of doing the same thing to Roddenberry with Star Trek/Lost in Space.
Edit: Bitter Enterprise thought... Enterprise is the only series that exists in the new movie canon. :-)
Well, ... um ...
Yes. I think he would have ... umm.
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You really want your head to explode? Did the events in First Contact and in Enterprise with the borg actually happen in this timeline? If they didn't, then did Cochran make it to warp on his own?
Cochran's appearance in Enterprise (at least, the Mirror Universe version) suggests that some of that might still be canon, but, obviously, we have no idea if Jean-Luc Picard and the Borg Queen were at all involved.
Gosh, of all the things to remain canon, the drunken hippie Cochran... I liked the one from the old series, with his 'Companion.'
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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You really want your head to explode? Did the events in First Contact and in Enterprise with the borg actually happen in this timeline? If they didn't, then did Cochran make it to warp on his own?Cochran's appearance in Enterprise (at least, the Mirror Universe version) suggests that some of that might still be canon, but, obviously, we have no idea if Jean-Luc Picard and the Borg Queen were at all involved.
Gosh, of all the things to remain canon, the drunken hippie Cochran... I liked the one from the old series, with his 'Companion.'
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You really want your head to explode? Did the events in First Contact and in Enterprise with the borg actually happen in this timeline? If they didn't, then did Cochran make it to warp on his own?Sounds like the Star Trek version of the Chewbacca Defense.
Well, arguably since Old Spock and Nero and his en both existed after the Kelvin incident it means that what happened in the new timeline has not affected what happened in Star Trek Prime. Therefore yes the events of First Contact still occurred. Otherwise the old timeline would have been erased, Nero's crew would have ceased to exist which means he didn't destroy the Kelvin which means the old time line still exists, which means he did destroy the Kelvin which...BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
Begins picking brain bits off the screen.
Ok time for my 2cp opinion on this bouncy thread.
First I actually liked Wesley Crusher as acharecter and I think Mr. Weaton did an excellent job playing a difficult role.
I will admit to some bias in my opinion simply because I think will weaton is freakin hot.
I liked DS9 alot and thought it was very well done as sort of a "darker" side to the whole federation ideals BS.
I really liked voyager because of the story,actors everything was great. Granted Chakotey was my favorite charecter and the actor is smokeing hot but the show was still good on it's own merits not just my fanfiction induced brain.
I suffered from star trek burn out after that and never watched enterprise so I can't comment too much.
I will whole heartedly agree that the rabid fanboys need to layoff Mr. Weaton and realise that they dislike the charecter not the actor.
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Despite being the world's biggest Babylon 5 fan (I got cable, just to watch that show!), I'm also a big DS9 fan. Not since Ricardo Montalban's Khan has Star Trek had a villain that I've found as awesome and fun-to-hate as Gul Dukat. Even DS9's Mirror Universe eps rocked, as Intendent Kira was even more incredibly memorable (and twisted) than Spock-with-a-beard. And don't even get me started on the DS9 Tribbles episode. Jadzia in a miniskirt? Sisko getting Kirk's autograph? Awesome.
Next Gen, Voyager and Enterprise lacked quality villains. Q was just an annoying petulant prat, not a tenth as cool as the Squire of Gothos he was ripping off, and Tasha's half-Romulan daughter was just terrible. The most memorable Voyager villain was, que'elle surprise, Seska, a Cardassian infiltrator, meaning she was pretty much a carry over from DS9 anyway!
As always, add IMO to the end of any sentence that starts with a capital letter. :)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Next Gen, Voyager and Enterprise lacked quality villains. Q was just an annoying petulant prat, not a tenth as cool as the Squire of Gothos he was ripping off, ...
Have you ever read Peter David's Q-Squared? He merges the Squire and Q in a delightfully twisted way (and even touches on the 'James R. Kirk' thing). And I always thought 'All Good things' presented Q (and the continuium) in a different light. I wish they'd have run with it.
(I have to recommend Q in Law as well)
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For my part, I think that DS9 at times was the best written of the Trek shows bar none, and had the most interesting ensemble of characters.
I also liked DS9 because Ben Sisko and crew didn't get to zip off to the next planet and leave someone else to clean up what ever mess they created. They had to stay on DS9 and deal with the unintended consequences of their actions.
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Uh...borg for you on line 6. They seem to think they're the most iconic Star Trek villian since the Klingons, and would like to note that they were introduced in Next Gen.
Next Gen, Voyager and Enterprise lacked quality villains.
The Borg had all the personality of a transporter accident. Less than the average holodeck malfunction, actually.
Hugh, Locutis, the Queen and Seven of Nine were the only ones who had any real characterization. Hugh was neat, in his first appearance. Locutis was chilling, but was cured to fast to remain a lasting villainous presence. The Queen was creepy, in a 'show me on the doll where the bad person touched you' sort of way, but played on that creepy / sexy / wrong vibe too much, until watching her slink around and paw at people became much like listening to one's grandmother talk about sex, less naughty and more 'I think I just threw up a little.'
And Seven of Nine, nobody cared about being a Borg. They took all that shiny black stuff off of her and revealed that a woman who has spent the last 20 years not exercising, dieting or moisturizing can miraculously be a smoking hot supermodel. Fandom took one look at her forward thrusters and went from, 'How dare they replace Kes!' to 'Holy twin-mounted photon torpedo launchers, captain! Kes, who?'
Shambling around like zombies in a Romero movie, dressed in bondage-wear left over from the last Hellraiser flick, the Borg had all the villianous potential of road rash. No charm, no personality, no twisted sense of honor, no 'this time, it's personal!' motivations, no sinister connections to other characters, nada. The Borg lacked any of the qualities that make a *fun* villain like Khan, the Squire of Gothos, Gul Dukat, Doctor Doom, etc.
And so they ambled around, getting phasered down by fleeing crewmen, like the antagonists from a Left for Dead videogame, saying 'Assimilate, Assimilate' like some poor man's Dalek.
I sometimes think the Borg Queen was invented for the sole reason that the Borg were so impersonal, and, therefore, ineffective, as true villains. She put a face on an enemy that was increasingly faceless, and meaningless, making very personal an enemy that was deliberately designed to be impersonal and dehumanizing, and was suffering for that design choice.
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Have you ever read Peter David's Q-Squared? (I have to recommend Q in Law as well)
I know I've read Q in Law, and I've probably read the other as well (I've read at least 100 of the books, they were like candy during college.)
Lwaxana Troi is right at the top of my 'things I don't like about Trek.' A deliberately annoying character that I'm, for some inexplicable reason, supposed to like, even though her entire raison d'etre seems to be to make everyone else around her look like a spineless halfwit. Added to Q, Q in Law was hardly my favorite book...
I would have rather seen Majel come back as the older Number One, now headmaster of Starfleet Academy, if they ever got around to making that proposed series (which I would have probably loved, as it would have had all sorts of teenaged cadet shenanigans that wouldn't fly on a starship, making it like 'teen titans' to the rest of the shows 'justice league'). An entire series of 'Below Decks,' as it were.
I preferred the faceless Borg. First Contact wasn't a bad movie, but the whole concept of a faceless, innumerable horde of enemies that act like a force of nature appeals greatly. Especially when they didn't care about humans at all, just technology.
A pasty dominatrix in fetish gear pretending she's Catwoman's naughtier Aunt Ethel? Only good for comic relief.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Have you ever read Peter David's Q-Squared? (I have to recommend Q in Law as well)I know I've read Q in Law, and I've probably read the other as well (I've read at least 100 of the books, they were like candy during college.)
Lwaxana Troi is right at the top of my 'things I don't like about Trek.' A deliberately annoying character that I'm, for some inexplicable reason, supposed to like, even though her entire raison d'etre seems to be to make everyone else around her look like a spineless halfwit. Added to Q, Q in Law was hardly my favorite book...
I would have rather seen Majel come back as the older Number One, now headmaster of Starfleet Academy, if they ever got around to making that proposed series (which I would have probably loved, as it would have had all sorts of teenaged cadet shenanigans that wouldn't fly on a starship, making it like 'teen titans' to the rest of the shows 'justice league'). An entire series of 'Below Decks,' as it were.
Lwaxwana did annoy me, until the DS9 Episodes, I saw her in a different light. And I enjoyed her Characterization in Q in Law. Both because she was the first person who wasn't awed/put off by Q ("I'm Q." "Really, are there any more letters like you at home?") And because she really took it to Q. ("Not now dear, mommy's chopping wood.")
Imzadi is actually my favourite of the (few) novels I read. But I like PADs style of writing.
And I enjoyed Below Decks as well. Part of the problem with 'Trek' was that we never got to see how the federation functioned. Not Starfleet.
Have you ever read Peter David's Q-Squared? (I have to recommend Q in Law as well)I know I've read Q in Law, and I've probably read the other as well (I've read at least 100 of the books, they were like candy during college.)
Lwaxana Troi is right at the top of my 'things I don't like about Trek.' A deliberately annoying character that I'm, for some inexplicable reason, supposed to like, even though her entire raison d'etre seems to be to make everyone else around her look like a spineless halfwit. Added to Q, Q in Law was hardly my favorite book...
I would have rather seen Majel come back as the older Number One, now headmaster of Starfleet Academy, if they ever got around to making that proposed series (which I would have probably loved, as it would have had all sorts of teenaged cadet shenanigans that wouldn't fly on a starship, making it like 'teen titans' to the rest of the shows 'justice league'). An entire series of 'Below Decks,' as it were.
Sir, for mentioning Below Decks, you win this thread for good and all. For hating Lwaxana Troi, however, I must revoke your gold medal.
And Seven of Nine, nobody cared about being a Borg. They took all that shiny black stuff off of her and revealed that a woman who has spent the last 20 years not exercising, dieting or moisturizing can miraculously be a smoking hot supermodel. Fandom took one look at her forward thrusters and went from, 'How dare they replace Kes!' to 'Holy twin-mounted photon torpedo launchers, captain! Kes, who?
*sigh*
A "Rip-Off" of that nature is fine. The writers of Star Trek at that point were almost certainly Gerry Anderson fans.What happened to Straczynski is more to the tune of actual theft.
Straczynski himself never made that charge against DS9, and while was a visible presence on USENET (until B5 fan abuse drove him off it) frequently asked fans NOT to beat on that particular horse. DS9 was never a problem for Straczynski. UPEN however was another story.
I myself see virtually no resemblance between the two shows, DS9 after all was a space station whereas B5 was an O'Neil style space colony. Calling them alike is like saying a Saturn 5 was a ripoff of pogo stick technology. Storywise they were also completely different so there wasn't any plot ripoff there either.
UPEN?
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Yeah, I think that saying DS9 is a ripoff of B5 is a stretch.
For starters, B5 sucked really, really bad.
::Hides.::
Seriously, though, it seems like JMS said "Here's this show I want to do on a space station," and Paramount probably went "Space station. Good idea. Let's make it a Star Trek show and ditch this Usenet guy."
That's not quite the same thing as stealing, imho.
Yeah, I think that saying DS9 is a ripoff of B5 is a stretch.
For starters, B5 sucked really, really bad.
::Hides.::
Seriously, though, it seems like JMS said "Here's this show I want to do on a space station," and Paramount probably went "Space station. Good idea. Let's make it a Star Trek show and ditch this Usenet guy."
That's not quite the same thing as stealing, imho.
I'm glad you joined this thread- what would you say is stealing? Because I've gotten into a number of arguments about this very topic offline this week, and I'd like to have a professional's opinion.
UPEN was one of the "third networks" It was the network in which B5 ran on and was run by Paramount. It had several scifi shows of limited to no success including B5, Time Trax, and my personal favorite "Nowhere Man."
OH!! Do you mean UPN? That's what it was called in NY.
You loved Nowhere Man too?!?!?!? That's one of my favorite shows.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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All I'm saying is that the borg have a much deeper cultural penetration than just about any other Star Trek villian, and had that even prior to the First Contact borg-hag. They are an iconic Star Trek villian. It's unfortunate that Voyager watered them down so much and made a pin-up girl their representative, but they are still an interesting and terrifying villian in the same mode as the Terminator or Aliens (other classic movie monsters without a sense of honor, or personality, just a relentless drive to destroy whatever is in their path).
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It had several scifi shows of limited to no success including B5, Time Trax, and my personal favorite "Nowhere Man."
Oh, awesome! I liked all of these shows!
Then again, I liked the first season of Earth: Final Conflict and Andromeda and the Tek War shows, so I'll pretty much watch anything that's even halfway decent sci-fi. (I draw the line at stuff like Lexx and Caprica, for completely different reasons.)
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I'm glad you joined this thread- what would you say is stealing? Because I've gotten into a number of arguments about this very topic offline this week, and I'd like to have a professional's opinion.
I'm not an expert and haven't really looked at the evidence. To me the similarities seem to boil down to:
1) Space station by wormhole.
2) Wooden captain.
3) Ummmmmmm.......
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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For example, a lot of the similarities on the above link are HUGE stretches or refer to things in the final seasons of the various shows.
OMG, both science fiction shows used stock characters!
OMG, both captains got married during the 6+ year shows!
OMG, both shows have a brash female second in command! Ok, so B5's doesn't actually show up until the second season, but in the unpublished and unshot story bible, there TOTALLY was a female character described as having a "sly sense of humor". Wow! Alert the media!
Yeah, I think that saying DS9 is a ripoff of B5 is a stretch.
For starters, B5 sucked really, really bad.
::Hides.::
Seriously, though, it seems like JMS said "Here's this show I want to do on a space station," and Paramount probably went "Space station. Good idea. Let's make it a Star Trek show and ditch this Usenet guy."
That's not quite the same thing as stealing, imho.
~gets the angry mob together and starts to hunt Erik down to burn him at the stake~ Burn, HERITIC!!! BURN!!!
~grins~
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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For example, a lot of the similarities on the above link are HUGE stretches or refer to things in the final seasons of the various shows.
OMG, both science fiction shows used stock characters!
OMG, both captains got married during the 6+ year shows!
OMG, both shows have a brash female second in command! Ok, so B5's doesn't actually show up until the second season, but in the unpublished and unshot story bible, there TOTALLY was a female character described as having a "sly sense of humor". Wow! Alert the media!
Someone's got a lot of spare time now that deadlines have been met...
But, you have to admit, Family Guy is totally a rip-off of the Simpsons. They both have fat irresponsible males, precocious children, and...uh...episodes about gambling on Indian reservations!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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If 'good' equals Lexx, I have not only a policy, but a severe medical condition against 'good' sci-fi. :)Caprica is just deadly dull, not, like, painfully bad or anything.
Never seen Lexx, but according to Wikipedia, it includes nudity, so I can't see how it could possibly be bad.
As for Caprica, we shall speak no further of this topic until Gary installs the punch in the jimmy button.
2) Wooden captain.
I never found Sisko all that wooden. But I got a lot of kicks out of how Avery Brooks tried to show what I think was barely-constrained fury. Ben Sisko used to sound like he was trying to restrain a rabid weasel with his buttocks. Maybe he could make diamonds in there, but the weasel wasn't going to stay put for it.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I actually like Sisko, but he was pretty reserved. He (like the rest of the show) got really, really good as the seasons went on.
The original captain from B5, as I understand it, went back to his original role as a department store window mannequin after the first couple of seasons until they trotted him out in the last season to give the whole series some narrative structure.
For example, a lot of the similarities on the above link are HUGE stretches or refer to things in the final seasons of the various shows.
OMG, both science fiction shows used stock characters!
OMG, both captains got married during the 6+ year shows!
OMG, both shows have a brash female second in command! Ok, so B5's doesn't actually show up until the second season, but in the unpublished and unshot story bible, there TOTALLY was a female character described as having a "sly sense of humor". Wow! Alert the media!
Both use stock characters, yes! The similarity I feel is the biggest offender of this
20. Both series involve a character who must deal with the conflict between their alien heritage, and their adopted human qualities (Worf, Delenn)
Seriously? I would have to say that these character's are in most sci-fi series!
Yeah, I think that saying DS9 is a ripoff of B5 is a stretch.
For starters, B5 sucked really, really bad.
::Hides.::
Seriously, though, it seems like JMS said "Here's this show I want to do on a space station," and Paramount probably went "Space station. Good idea. Let's make it a Star Trek show and ditch this Usenet guy."
That's not quite the same thing as stealing, imho.
~gets the angry mob together and starts to hunt Erik down to burn him at the stake~ Burn, HERITIC!!! BURN!!!
~grins~
I am sure that right now, Erik is shaking his head and wondering "Why? Oh God, why do I put up with some of these people? WHY?"
Well, I have an answer for you Erik. It is amazing what one will do for a regular paycheck!
~Grins and RUNS~
Uh...borg for you on line 6. They seem to think they're the most iconic Star Trek villian since the Klingons, and would like to note that they were introduced in Next Gen.
Next Gen, Voyager and Enterprise lacked quality villains.
That would be because Next Generation is, IMHO the best star trek hands down.
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20. Both series involve a character who must deal with the conflict between their alien heritage, and their adopted human qualities (Worf, Delenn)Seriously? I would have to say that these character's are in most sci-fi series!
Didn't Worf come along several years before B5 anyway? Sure they brought him over from TNG after that series ended but he was not a creation for DS9. Besides, Spock predates both and defined that niche for serial sci-fi. Not to mention drawing from many similar characters from before him.
Yeah, I think that saying DS9 is a ripoff of B5 is a stretch.
For starters, B5 sucked really, really bad.
::Hides.::
Seriously, though, it seems like JMS said "Here's this show I want to do on a space station," and Paramount probably went "Space station. Good idea. Let's make it a Star Trek show and ditch this Usenet guy."
That's not quite the same thing as stealing, imho.
B5 started off very bad, I skipped the first season only to catch Londo's revenge on his rival for assassinating his girlfriend. It hooked me right there - Beyond the bad special effects, stereotypes and so much wooden acting that if planted the cast you could save the rainforest. There was something that no other scifi show had - a story and not a bad one at that.
All of JMS stuff is interesting just not executed in the best way. I think if JMS was English we would be considering Bab 5 in the same way we think of Blake 7 or Dr Who.
I actually like Sisko, but he was pretty reserved. He (like the rest of the show) got really, really good as the seasons went on.
The original captain from B5, as I understand it, went back to his original role as a department store window mannequin after the first couple of seasons until they trotted him out in the last season to give the whole series some narrative structure.
Have you seen the show? That's not a very accurate description of what happened, and in terms of the show having structure its hard to find any show with as many interweaving plots as B5 had. J. Michael Straczynski had the entire series penned prior to filming the first episode, none of this Lost "OMG what now!?!?!?" nonsense.
Straczynski is a hell of a writer (check out his recent run on Thor) and personally I really enjoyed B5.
Yeah, I think that saying DS9 is a ripoff of B5 is a stretch.
For starters, B5 sucked really, really bad.
::Hides.::
Seriously, though, it seems like JMS said "Here's this show I want to do on a space station," and Paramount probably went "Space station. Good idea. Let's make it a Star Trek show and ditch this Usenet guy."
That's not quite the same thing as stealing, imho.
B5 started off very bad, I skipped the first season only to catch Londo's revenge on his rival for assassinating his girlfriend. It hooked me right there - Beyond the bad special effects, stereotypes and so much wooden acting that if planted the cast you could save the rainforest. There was something that no other scifi show had - a story and not a bad one at that.
All of JMS stuff is interesting just not executed in the best way. I think if JMS was English we would be considering Bab 5 in the same way we think of Blake 7 or Dr Who.
The first season WAS a bit rocky... but it pays off later when everything comes together.
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That would be because Next Generation is, IMHO the best star trek hands down.Uh...borg for you on line 6. They seem to think they're the most iconic Star Trek villian since the Klingons, and would like to note that they were introduced in Next Gen.
Next Gen, Voyager and Enterprise lacked quality villains.
More to the point, the Borg tapped into the same "technology gone astray" pathos that other classic villains such as the Dalecks, the Cylons, the Terminator, and others did. Technology out of control has always been a staple of sci-fi and the Borg exemplified that for my generation, along with exemplifying a loss of identity that many of us felt as we began graduating from school and entering the workforce. The Borg, in many ways, was an analogy for the corporate environment.
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Although, I have to admit, by the time we reached the end of Voyager the Borg were beginning to feel old hat. Basically it seemed like every time the writers ran out of ideas they said Hey, we haven't done a Borg episode lately. It seemed even more like a crutch when the did a Borg episode for Enterprise.