I want to create a rogue that fights well with knives and I would like help with the build.
The other party members are, a Half-Orc Paladin (falchion/healer), an Elven Ranger (curve-blade/archery path), and a Human Wizard (enchanter).
He's going to be a Half-elf, starting at third level. My rolled stats are: 15,14,14,13,12,11.
I was thinking of TWF, throwing daggers and having high UMD:
str-12
dex-17 (+2race)
con-14
int-11
wis-13
cha-14
Feats: TWF, Finesse(talent),skill focus/UMD(race), +?
[this is just a start, open to alternatives]
Core only, and thanks in advance!
Good work getting Finesse as a talent, you want to save your feats for the TWF chain. I'd stay away from the ranged attack chain tho, you'll only be able to sneak attack when they're flat-footed or you're invisible, and even then, not often enough.
Blink's been nerfed, so consequently so has ranged sneak attack. You can still throw your knives while they're flat-footed, the longer you stay away from melee, while dealing SA the better, but i wouldn't bother investing feats in it.
Use your favoured class to up your hp if you're gonna be in melee much, and amp up your ac with dodge etc. It's good that you've got UMD, grab a wand of mirror image, and maybe displacement if you can afford it, it will save your bacon.
Also, a wand of cure light for personal use won't go astray.
Good work getting Finesse as a talent, you want to save your feats for the TWF chain. I'd stay away from the ranged attack chain tho, you'll only be able to sneak attack when they're flat-footed or you're invisible, and even then, not often enough.
Blink's been nerfed, so consequently so has ranged sneak attack. You can still throw your knives while they're flat-footed, the longer you stay away from melee, while dealing SA the better, but i wouldn't bother investing feats in it.
Use your favoured class to up your hp if you're gonna be in melee much, and amp up your ac with dodge etc. It's good that you've got UMD, grab a wand of mirror image, and maybe displacement if you can afford it, it will save your bacon.
Also, a wand of cure light for personal use won't go astray.
I thought about dipping into fighter, but that only grants one extra feat at most. I'd love to throw some knives, but with 10' increment and TWF eating-up feats, I don't know if it's a worthy focus. Just trying to build something fun.
Just out of curiosity, since I'm new to PF and all my experience is with 3.5, but why the TWF chain instead of Weapon Focus and all the doors it opens? Also, either way, isn't Quick Draw a good feat to have for this kind of fighter?
Yeh, if you're using Core, and you're playing a rogue, just go straight rogue. Thug is a good ACF, but if that's not available, it's just not worth it. You can still throw knives if you want to(see Starknife), but i'd focus your feats on TWF.
Also, Combat Feat should be your next talent.
@MCC - What does Weapon Focus make available? Weapon Specialization? Unavailable as a rogue.
This is difficult to do effectively. To get sneak attack after they opponents have moved, you need to either spend a move action to snipe (stealth check at -20) or get a lasting way to be invisible, like greater invisibility.
The feats I would focus on are:
Point Blank Shot
Far Shot
Quick Draw
Rapid Shot and/or Two Weapon Fighting
Skill Focus (UMD)
Precise Shot
Possibly:
Skill Focus(Stealth)
Stealthy
Magical Aptitude
If you are in range to do sneak attack (which is required if you want to do significant damage), Point Blank Shot gives the benefits of Weapon Focus and half of Weapon Specialization. It is also a prereq for Far Shot, Rapid Shot and Precise Shot.
Far Shot, while usually not a worthwhile feat, is nice when throwing daggers. You only have -1 from at 15-20 feet and -2 at 25-30 feet.
Quick Draw is required for a throwing build, as otherwise you need to spend a move action each round to draw more weapons.
Rapid Shot and Two Weapon Fighting can be used together, assuming your GM thinks that a dagger is a ranged weapon. (It is listed as a melee weapon with a range increment, so both sides of the point can be argued.) TWF grants an extra attack, not an extra melee attack, so you can use it while throwing daggers. Using both gives 2 extra attacks with -4 to all attacks, so it isn't necessarily automatic to use both of them. TWF is also obviously still of use when you are forced into melee, although a 5-foot step will often allow you to attack from range.
Precise shot lets you continue attacking without the -4 penalty once the rest of your party is in melee. Improved Precise Shot is also good, although with the BAB +11 requirement, you will not qualify for a long time.
The stealth feats will be useful if you go for a sniping focus, since you will need every bonus you can get to counter the -20 penalty.
With UMD, you will eventually be able to reliably use a wand/scroll of Greater Invisibility to ensure sneak attack damage on all of your attacks.
UMD is also a great skill. It means that you are the backup cleric, wizard, druid and paladin when sneak attack and other rogue abilities are not what is needed. In one recent fight, my rogue started out doing modest damage, since he was not bypassing the DR of the enemy. So he cast Align Weapon on the fighter's hammer from a scroll, then retreated and healed himself with a wand of Cure Moderate Wounds. The party wizard failed a save against a fear effect and tried to run away, but the rogue tripped him and then used a scroll of Remove Fear to bring him back into the battle. Next round, he used a wand of Bless Weapon (Paladin only spell) on the Kyton's chains to allow her to bypass the DR. Then when the cleric and fighter were knocked unconscious, he as able to stabilize the fighter while someone else brought the cleric back to consciousness.
So, I decided to ditch the knife fighting rogue...
Going for Rapier and Hand-crossbow instead, same stats, but with these feats:
Rapid reload, point-blank shot, finesse(talent), skill focus/UMD(racial)
Next talent(lvl4): (combat trick)Rapid shot
Not sure about feats after that.
Any suggestions on this build would be appreciated, I still have time to make adjustments/finalize my character.
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So, I decided to ditch the knife fighting rogue...
Going for Rapier and Hand-crossbow instead, same stats, but with these feats:
Rapid reload, point-blank shot, finesse(talent), skill focus/UMD(racial)
Next talent(lvl4): (combat trick)Rapid shot
If you're going to be doing hand-crossbow/rapier combo it would be wise to not focus on the ranged aspect. If you load the hand-crossbow when you enter a dangerous situation (say... the entrance to a dungeon) then you'll get your shot in on round one, and by round two you should be able to flank with the ranger or paladin for sneak attack with your rapier (which is a better weapon anyway due to the crit range). Fighting this way will never require you to reload your weapon in combat, nor to spend part of a move action to draw your rapier (due to reloading the crossbow with two hands).
As for feats, I'd focus on standard combat rogue feats. You may not want the TWF tree based on your fighting style (though it would still be good for rounds 3 onward), so instead go with a duelist path (combat expertise, toughness, possibly even improved feint, etc.).
Just out of curiosity, since I'm new to PF and all my experience is with 3.5, but why the TWF chain instead of Weapon Focus and all the doors it opens? Also, either way, isn't Quick Draw a good feat to have for this kind of fighter?
Well the player is going to be a Rogue, so WF does no more than give him a +1 on attacks, since they can't get weapon spec. TWF with rogue is all about getting as much sneak attack as possible, since it's added on every attack which sneak attack applies.
So, I decided to ditch the knife fighting rogue...
Going for Rapier and Hand-crossbow instead, same stats, but with these feats:
Rapid reload, point-blank shot, finesse(talent), skill focus/UMD(racial)
Next talent(lvl4): (combat trick)Rapid shot
If you're going to be doing hand-crossbow/rapier combo it would be wise to not focus on the ranged aspect. If you load the hand-crossbow when you enter a dangerous situation (say... the entrance to a dungeon) then you'll get your shot in on round one, and by round two you should be able to flank with the ranger or paladin for sneak attack with your rapier (which is a better weapon anyway due to the crit range). Fighting this way will never require you to reload your weapon in combat, nor to spend part of a move action to draw your rapier (due to reloading the crossbow with two hands).
As for feats, I'd focus on standard combat rogue feats. You may not want the TWF tree based on your fighting style (though it would still be good for rounds 3 onward), so instead go with a duelist path (combat expertise, toughness, possibly even improved feint, etc.).
I like your ideas, in order to go into the combat expertise tree, I would have bump-up intelligence. I'll consider.
@MCC - What does Weapon Focus make available?
Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses/Deadly Stroke
all about getting as much sneak attack as possible,
Shatter defenses = more sneak attacks.
Of course, it's a moot point now, just saying....
@MCC - What does Weapon Focus make available?Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses/Deadly Stroke
all about getting as much sneak attack as possible,Shatter defenses = more sneak attacks.
Of course, it's a moot point now, just saying....
Well, shatter defenses=flat footed but quite possibly out of reach. Also takes a full round to set up, and creatures like undead are immune to fear including intimidate. Not saying it's a bad route, just want to point out it's not an either/or proposition. Taking TWF/ITWF as well as WF/DD/SD is completely plausable for that particular build. But like you say it's a moot point, the OP has decided to go a different direction.
Well, shatter defenses=flat footed but quite possibly out of reach. Also takes a full round to set up, and creatures like undead are immune to fear including intimidate. Not saying it's a bad route, just want to point out it's not an either/or proposition. Taking TWF/ITWF as well as WF/DD/SD is completely plausable for that particular build. But like you say it's a moot point, the OP has decided to go a different direction.
@MCC - What does Weapon Focus make available?Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses/Deadly Stroke
all about getting as much sneak attack as possible,Shatter defenses = more sneak attacks.
Of course, it's a moot point now, just saying....
Good point. I guess if we were still working on a knife fighter, the difference is the TWF will increase sneak attack damage when the rogue DOES manage to actually sneak up on someone, the DD/SD route allows for sneak attacks when stealth is not an option.
FRom a stylistic point of view, doing both together would be a win -- using both knives as part of the dazzling display.
FRom a stylistic point of view, doing both together would be a win -- using both knives as part of the dazzling display.
This (like many things) reminds me of my cannibal halfling. This would fit, I'd just scrape my knives together and lick my lips and put the fear of god into everyone :)
FRom a stylistic point of view, doing both together would be a win -- using both knives as part of the dazzling display.This (like many things) reminds me of my cannibal halfling. This would fit, I'd just scrape my knives together and lick my lips and put the fear of god into everyone :)
Disturbing. Funny... but disturbing.
Well ... for a knife fighter, I'd be all about getting Improved Feint ASAP so you can fake out in combat and attack.
@ the OP: Are you limited in what you can bring to the table, or is anything from 3.x playable for you?
If I can play the Devil's advocate here, I don't think that going TWF is ever a good idea for a rogue. In order to use TWF effectively, you have to make a full round action to stand there and duke it out with the enemy. And even with their shiny new d8 HD instead of the rogue's previous d6, with only light armor and their dex bonus to AC, a stationary rogue is a dead rogue.
I do play a knife fighter in a Second Darkness campaign, and he's been very effective thus far. His highest score is Dex of course, but next highest is Charisma then Int. Has a 12 Str and avg scores in Wisdom and Con. He's maxed out his Bluff, Sense Motive, and Stealth skills, as well as Sleight of Hand and Acrobatics and a few others. Being human, his first few feats were Weapon Finesse and Improved Initiative. At 2nd level, he added Improved Feint, and that's when he got nasty... every round, if he's not moving more than 5-ft in combat, he's Feinting and then attacking. Improved Initiative helps him to move first and take folks down in a hurry, while they're still flat-footed. In successive rounds, he's moving and striking, sizing them up or distracting them (Improved Feint with a +12 or so Bluff check), then striking with lethal force (i.e. Sneak Attack every round). After 2nd level, I added Quick Draw, Dodge, and Weapon Focus: Dagger. He gets to sneak attack his foes nearly every round, fighting defensively against those who aren't likely to drop in a single thrust. True, daggers don't do but d4 damage, but that's a d4 +1 for Str, +1 for magic, +3d6 sneak attack (5th level rogue now). That's more dmg on average than the 16 str fighter with her glaive, although playing it to its best advantage takes wits and lining up as many circumstance bonuses as possible. I chose the concept of the dagger-wielding rogue out of an urge to roleplay a seriously dangerous knife-fighter, even bargaining with my DM to lose proficiency in swords and other martial rogue weapons in return for being able to take Specialization in daggers one day.
Btw, I also maxed out Diplomacy and Use Magic Device, especially with a high Charisma score... the Diplomacy is so useful when we're not in combat, and has made me the Face of the party, the bargainer, the manipulator and the info gatherer, great for role playing ops. The UMD, as has also been pointed out above, allows me to use all those neat little scrolls and wands we find lying around and back up our spellcasters, or even capitalize on my own rogue-ish skills with spells like Disguise Self, Invisibility, Charm Person, etc. I carry a wand of Shield, and use it before battle when I get the chance, and I also carry 2 wands of cure light wounds. I say two because sometimes I roll a 1, and if you do that you can't use that particular item for the rest of the day. I point this out because I've noticed that many folks don't remember that little caveat...
So what has been partly brought up is what I call the Thug build. You don't need to multiclass, and to be better in combat the temptation is always there to mc as fighter, but with PF rogue there really is no need. Basically you focus on wielding a 2H weapon and take Power Attack. Being a half-orc and getting falchion proficiency works great here. Since it will be a while before you'll get a second attack you can instead rely on stick and move tactics, including the spring attack tree if you want to go that way, and improved feint.
Just noticed, it's "core only", so yeah, let me second that Shatter Defenses and Dazzling Display progression as well. Just a good, good, GOOD idea to have with a rogue-character.
If you're planning to hang in melee a bit, Defensive Combat Training is almost a must.
STR will certainly be your friend, but if not, you can build to pick up the feats that let Dex replace Str in combat (Wpn Finesse, and Agile Maneuvers).
I'd also suggest things like Wind Stance/Lightning stance if you go for the Spring Attack tree (fantastic idea for a Rogue, and Lightning stance is better than Blurr - 50% miss that whatever targets you will miss this round for making the spring attack. If you can spring to flank, and spring away - you're golden!!!).
I'd recommend, that since your Dex will be rather high anyway, you forgo Imp. Init if you can manage. Other feats will just open up SO many more options for your character. Since your "knife fighting" a lot of that will rely on you maximizing other options on the field (ie: either feinting yourself - 3 feats deep to fully utilize; or flanking w/allies - another 3-feat deep chain, not to mention the other 2 for giving concealment as you move), you won't get nearly the utility out of Imp Init as fighty/low dex types would. If you factor in the 3 feats needed to shift from Str-Dex based combat adders, it's even worse.
My advice: forget Improved Initiative - pick up one of the other feats and get moving towards mastering those "knife fighter" things. If you want, consider quickdraw, but forget the rest for making "knife-throwing" an option. It's not very good, and you 9/10 times won't get to use your sneak attack (if 3.x stuff was allowed, there are feats to allow exactly this, but :shrugs:).
So, I decided to ditch the knife fighting rogue...
Going for Rapier and Hand-crossbow instead, same stats, but with these feats:
Rapid reload, point-blank shot, finesse(talent), skill focus/UMD(racial)
Next talent(lvl4): (combat trick)Rapid shot
Not sure about feats after that.
Any suggestions on this build would be appreciated, I still have time to make adjustments/finalize my character.
My first question is, are you building him for a RP idea, or do you want to maximize his combat output? (Me, I build every character for both reasons at the same time).
If it's only for RP reasons, then don't worry about it. Make him fun and entertaining. Focus on personality and who he is. Have fun with the combat without worrying about it excessively. End of discussion.
But if you want to maximize damage output, then ditch the ranged idea anyway. A rogue investing feats in ranged combat is like a wizard investing feats in the power-attack line. Sure, you can do it if you want, but you're wasting your best class features.
Sure, carry a bow or crossbow or throwing daggers. Use them when you have to. Just don't waste feats on it.
Why?
You don't have enough feats to split your effectiveness into two styles of fighting. Pick one style and maximize that style, then use that style all the time.
So focus on your rapier. Go TWF or not, it's up to you, but focus on that weapon and use it in melee. Get your flanking, work on your Feint if you like, be quick, be deadly, and be in your enemy's hip pocket right from the start of the fight until the end of it.
This will maximize your damage output, and your paladin buddy will like you too as he enjoys the flanking bonus and hits more often.
And if you do this, you will find that your hand-crossbow (or whatever) stays in your backpack throughout almost every fight you're in. Once you find this fact to be more or less true, you will regret investing feats on that hand-crossbow collecting dust in your backpack.
And, if you must have ranged weapons, carry daggers rather than a hand crossbow. Same damage, no feat required to use daggers, retrievable ammunition, you'll find far more magic daggers than magic hand-crossbows, and you can more attacks at higher levels without using any feats.
Of course, that's just the optimized combat approach, which may not be really what you're after.
I would recommend swapping for a higher strength so you can take Power Attack with your daggers - it can be used with light weapons now and the extra damage is a surer thing than sneak attack. Also Deadly Aim if you are going to be throwing daggers.
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I'd also suggest things like Wind Stance/Lightning stance if you go for the Spring Attack tree (fantastic idea for a Rogue, and Lightning stance is better than Blurr - 50% miss that whatever targets you will miss this round for making the spring attack. If you can spring to flank, and spring away - you're golden!!!).
My advice: forget Improved Initiative - pick up one of the other feats and get moving towards mastering those "knife fighter" things. If you want, consider quickdraw, but forget the rest for making "knife-throwing" an option. It's not very good, and you 9/10 times won't get to use your sneak attack (if 3.x stuff was allowed, there are feats to allow exactly this, but :shrugs:).
Lightning Stance is no use with Spring Attack - you need to take 2 move actions to trigger it. Spring Attack is one move attack, one attack action (which can be taken at any point during the move action). Wind Stance works with Spring Attack, though.
As for Improved Initiative, it's an absolutely top-tier feat for Rogues. You want to act first and often to maximise sneak attack and full attack potential. Step Up is also very nice (though Step Up is nice for basically all melee combatants).
Thanks for all the feedback, you guys are awesome.
My idea of my character has evolved from the knife-fighter, to the hand-crossbow, and now to something else. I think I've got my concept down finally, here is a summary of my background:
"Chess", a well connected man from the swampy southern regions of our world. He has that southern hospitality thing going-on, he is charming and known for his elegant swordplay and good-natured bravado. The town he is from is small, and borders swamplands, his father was sheriff, and his father's father was sheriff/mayor. Chess grew-up under his father's wing (single-parent), as an only child. He spent many days at the local jail as a little boy doing menial tasks for the warden, while his father was out.
His father was killed on duty. Chess was inline for sheriff, but ran instead to the larger neighboring city (think New Orleans-like). As a young man, he got his first real lessons on the streets of that wild city, fraught with gambling, drinking, prostitution, and every-other vice. He somehow came to wield a rapier, and took it upon himself to protect the poor and weak he saw abused and defiled daily. Unable to fully escape his LG upbringing, and the lessons of his father and the warden, he never fell for the trappings of crime and vice (well, not too much).
He became known as the street sheriff, a perpetual do-gooder, well versed in the ways of crime, and yet friend to many within those circles. He knows how to play his cards, and knows what is right, and how to enforce it, regardless of the law. He may never return to that town, to that jail he grew-up in, but the lessons of his father and of that warden will never leave him, he will always do what he perceives is right and just. His unyielding vigor in battle, his quick footwork and ever-swooshing and piercing rapier, shall bring the mightiest of foes to their knees in apology, or alternatively, on their faces bleeding.
Build:
Now that I know who he is, I can better work on what he is.
Rolled Stats: 15,14,14,13,12,11
Race: Teetering between Human/Half-elf.
Class: Fighter or rogue, or whatever fits my concept.
Concept: I envision a Rapier-savant, agile, mobile, impressive. He will probably throw daggers or darts (throwing-knifes) as back-up. This is a RP build, but of course, RP builds have to be best at what they do. I am no longer so set on class or race. Probably NG aligned, lightly armored, relying instead on his mobility and cunning; and of course, exceedingly handsome.
Further notes: The only reason, really, I was originally going Rogue, was for Disable Device. We have all knowledges covered, Diplomacy and such also. I am not afraid to make a skilled fighter if necessary.
Thank you for your help in brainstorming. Any builds that fit my concept will be appreciated, I will be sure to post my final draft of Chess.
*Edit: (more info)
Starting at level 3. And, I probably should have mention this earlier, I am the DM, but my players prefer if I play a full-fledged, long-term PC DMPC, so the background is important to me. Also, the Paladin in the group is the diplomat, the ranger can be the sneak, and the wizard is the knowledge-monkey.
I like the knife fighter rogue idea.
I also like the idea of both ranged and melee with the same weapon.
I am imagining a PC with daggers who uses them effectively in both ranged combat and melee...
Kind of like throwing knives,
he juggles them
takes the three in the air stabs two throws the third one and still has three in the air the whole time......I think a throwing knife and a dagger are two different things and stats for throwing knives should be a little different.....
maybe an increased range incriment say 30 for SA purposes
Weapon finnessable applies to melee and throwing....
Yeah, I liked it too, but I'm canning it for later...maybe an NPC for future campaigns.
Lightning Stance is no use with Spring Attack - you need to take 2 move actions to trigger it. Spring Attack is one move attack, one attack action (which can be taken at any point during the move action). Wind Stance works with Spring Attack, though.
Hmm ... this is odd. I've never noted the "2 move actions or withdraw" thing before.
From the hip, as a DM I would rule that Spring Attack is definitely something intended to be used with this. I'd call the move, hit, move "2 move actions" myself. If not, I'd call the hit (in melee range) and move away (from melee range) a "withdraw" action, so on both counts it would seem (to me) that it's something that *should* work with Spring Attack from the get.
Weird phrasing, though - maybe needs an official clarification in the Rules section?
I just looked at it, speaker, and from the descriptions of Wind Stance and Lightning Stance it is clear they are not meant to be used with melee. Wind Stance only gives concealment vs ranged attacks, Lightning Stance only if you use two move actions or a withdraw action, so the attack and not be hit bit is DOA.
Well, since my character idea has evolved to be very different than when I originally started this thread, I will start a new one, seeking comments on my final build. I'll title it: "Help with character idea".
-thanks
I just looked at it, speaker, and from the descriptions of Wind Stance and Lightning Stance it is clear they are not meant to be used with melee. Wind Stance only gives concealment vs ranged attacks, Lightning Stance only if you use two move actions or a withdraw action, so the attack and not be hit bit is DOA.
It may be DOA for you ... ;-)
I would suggest a 1 level dip into maneuver master monk. Take Improved Feint with your monk bonus feat. With your flurry of maneuvers ability, you can feint (or use any other combat maneuver - I like dirty trick for a rogue)in place of an attack, rather than using a standard action. If successful with a feint, you can get sneak attack damage on your next attack.