If this has been covered, direct me and I'll read it up there, BUT ... in a review of skills recently, I noticed that Barbarians are the ONLY class that does not have Profession as a class skill ... why is that?
It really sticks out (once you notice it) as something just *wrong* in the design - like it slipped through the cracks or something.
Seriously - why are they the ONLY class lacking this skill? (or on the reverse, why does every other class have it, but it's forbidden/non-class to Barbarians?)
Is this just some random little fluke?
The idea of profession seems to be "job" you do - why would a barbarian not be able to have a job?
**confused**
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If this has been covered, direct me and I'll read it up there, BUT ... in a review of skills recently, I noticed that Barbarians are the ONLY class that does not have Profession as a class skill ... why is that?
It really sticks out (once you notice it) as something just *wrong* in the design - like it slipped through the cracks or something.
Seriously - why are they the ONLY class lacking this skill? (or on the reverse, why does every other class have it, but it's forbidden/non-class to Barbarians?)
Is this just some random little fluke?
The idea of profession seems to be "job" you do - why would a barbarian not be able to have a job?
**confused**
Because most professions are 'civilised' things like "bookkeeper", "merchant" and the like, while the Barbarian is seen as a decidely uncivilised character class. Can you really imagine Thog coming in from the tundra and saying to Thogmela? "Blimery, that's a hard day at the accountants, toss this spreadshet on rthe fire for lunch."
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Well, they don't really need it, do they? I don't mind it if you want to give your barbarians in Profession (Goatherding), but I think most of us will pass on that. Honestly, I don't understand your problem. Why do you want to take ranks in profession so badly. Please explain.
And you could easily avoid this problem by dipping into another class.
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I can see your point. Looking at some of the suggested Professions listed in the PRD under Profession, though..
Profession
(Wis; Trained Only)
The most common Profession skills are architect, baker, barrister, brewer, butcher, clerk, cook, courtesan, driver, engineer, farmer, fisherman, gambler, gardener, herbalist, innkeeper, librarian, merchant, midwife, miller, miner, porter, sailor, scribe, shepherd, stable master, soldier, tanner, trapper, and woodcutter.
I can only see a few a barbarian would not be "good" at, like architect, clerk, courtesan, engineer, innkeeper, librarian, miller, miner, and scribe. Seriously, what barbarian tribe has a library?
Makes about as much sense as a Druid having Profession and doing book-keeping, etc.
Besides, it is not like a Barbarian needs to be primitive. He could be a street thug who loses his temper easily in a fight. I can see Profession (Sailor) being totally appropriate for the class.
I could see Guide or something like that, but Know: Local and Survival pretty much sum up most "professions" a Barby would have, IMO. MAYBE a Herd keeper of some sort, but those are not known for being lucrative professions.
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In 3.5, fighters didn't have Profession either. I'm not sure why PFRPG gave it to the fighter but left the barbarian out in the cold.
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The Fighter profession thing caused a bit of an interesting situation in Living Greyhawk for the Shield Lands. To be a member of the Standing Army meta-org you needed 4 ranks of profession (soldier) which fighters couldn't get till like 5th level. We had a lot of low level rogues running around in the army, it was pretty funny.
Given how the new skill system works, it not being a class skill is just -3. Not exactly a gigantic penalty. Plus most campaigns don't really pay attention to Profession.
Goat herding can be replaced with Handle Animal, no?
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Okay, I apologize in advance for all the groans, winces, and flinches to come, but you know that SOMEONE has to say it. It's inevitable.
Seriously, what barbarian tribe has a library?
Meet... Conan the Librarian.
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Okay, I apologize in advance for all the groans, winces, and flinches to come, but you know that SOMEONE has to say it. It's inevitable.
Seriously, what barbarian tribe has a library?Meet... Conan the Librarian.
LMAO! I'm going to do this now. And the DM thought the druid naming his liger "Battlecat" was bad...
Yes, it's been done many times.
Okay, I think I got that out of my system. Sorry for the threadjack.
Goat herding can be replaced with Handle Animal, no?
No, no, no, Goat Herding is for business, Handle animal is for roman... oh, wait....
Well ... just to clarify some things, I don't have a problem - other than noting the general shift from 3.x to PF where all classes picked up "Profession" as a sort of "Your job here" kind of skill.
Then I noticed barbarians completely NOT having it. That, IMO, is weird. If in the 3.x upgrade all core classes picked up Profession (Fighter being a key one that really made sense), what happened to the barbarian.
Yes, mechanically it's a 3 point difference, but that's not the point. The point is more along the lines of what Dragonborn pointed out - most of those things can fully function in any sort of society - not 'civilized' only.
As for "not game relevant" well .. every game is different. In one, your "job" could very well matter. In another - maybe less so. Point being - that's irrelevant to what I was asking about.
Am I correct in seeing this as just some arbitrary "No soup for you!" decision dropped on the barbarian's head?
Honestly "fixing" is NOT a problem or what I'm after. I'm looking to understand this as a conscious choice, or a mistake (ie: something likely to appear in a 2nd printing/FAQ or whatever).
Creative Director
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Remember that in Pathfinder, the difference between a class skill and a non-class skill is not much more than a +3 bonus. If you want a barbarian goat herder, give him ranks in Profession (goat herder). A 10th level barbarian goat herder with a Wisdom 10 would have a +10 Goatherding check, while a 10th level rogue goat herder with a Wisdom 10 would have a +13. Really not that big of a deal. And if you really wanted your barbarian goat herder to gain that +3 bonus, there's plenty of ways to get it. Such as simply multiclassing 1 level into a class that has Profession as a class skill. Or taking Skill Focus (Profession [goat herder]).
The reason we didn't give barbarians the Profession skill comes down to the simple fact that you need to be in a civilization to have a Profession. If you're a barbarian, you don't need a job. You get what you want by making Survival checks and attack rolls.
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The reason we didn't give barbarians the Profession skill comes down to the simple fact that you need to be in a civilization to have a Profession. If you're a barbarian, you don't need a job. You get what you want by making Survival checks and attack rolls.
With respect, James, that's just as good a justification for making all barbarians illiterate.
I would have thought that the Pathfinder Barbarian embraced a wider range of archetypes than "savage".
With respect, James, that's just as good a justification for making all barbarians illiterate.
Give them a break -- they've just started teaching their kids to read, and now you're already asking for vocational schools?
;-)
THORGO TOO ANGRY TO HOLD DOWN DAY TO DAY JOB
Class: Barbarian
Profession: Anger Management Counselor
Course Work:
Rage as Motivation
Turning Lemons into Lemonade, with or without fatalities
You See Red, I See Blood
I'm Okay, You're Damned Lucky
Ninety Pound Weaklings and the Barbarians Who Love Them
Making Friends and Cleaving People
Accessorizing: Skulls or Furs?
Remember that in Pathfinder, the difference between a class skill and a non-class skill is not much more than a +3 bonus. If you want a barbarian goat herder, give him ranks in Profession (goat herder). A 10th level barbarian goat herder with a Wisdom 10 would have a +10 Goatherding check, while a 10th level rogue goat herder with a Wisdom 10 would have a +13. Really not that big of a deal. And if you really wanted your barbarian goat herder to gain that +3 bonus, there's plenty of ways to get it. Such as simply multiclassing 1 level into a class that has Profession as a class skill. Or taking Skill Focus (Profession [goat herder]).
The reason we didn't give barbarians the Profession skill comes down to the simple fact that you need to be in a civilization to have a Profession. If you're a barbarian, you don't need a job. You get what you want by making Survival checks and attack rolls.
I totally get the mechanics behind it (one of the great, GREAT things you guys did with the rule-set overall - LOVE the skill changes), so that part was unnecessary (I do appreciate the effort on your end to restate it, though).
Really, I was just gunning for a reason on the "why" of it was all. You've given that, and more, so thanks.
I do wonder, though, since every other class does get it, if you still think it's the best design choice?
As it stands, it kind of sticks out once you realize it's not there (my initial purpose for posting).
I mean, even the method you give of multi-classing, sort of flies in the face of "stick to core class" you guys seemed to have leaned towards in the first place, so it's not that great an idea, IMO, given where you wanted to design the game.
The feat's a solid idea, though - could work for anyone.
If you have shied away from the "barbarian am savage! Me not need read!" archetype, why keep in a lack of a "job" at all? Every society has "jobs" beyond survival checks and attack rolls. What about the healers in the tribe? Poultices (ie: Profession - Herbalist) would certainly have a place amongst a "savage" species. Must they all spear-fish exclusively? Why can't they be fishermen? Why can't they sail? Or have a notion of organized combat and tactics (soldier)?
Point being, it seems odd mechanically that all but 1 core class gets a "job" skill, and that the reason they didn't get it is a flat judgment about making any members of the class very 1-dimensional regarding their "real life" skills and habitat/society structures. Given all of the other great attention to classes and critters in general you've given, this kind of stands at diametric opposites to everything else you've done.
As I said, it's about the most minor of adjustments I can imagine.
In any case, though - thank you very much for giving me/us a look "under the hood" of the design team.
SNIP *lots of talky talky*
If you have shied away from the "barbarian am savage! Me not need read!" archetype, why keep in a lack of a "job" at all? Every society has "jobs" beyond survival checks and attack rolls. What about the healers in the tribe? Poultices (ie:...
This is an issue I dealt with in my home game by limiting the Barb's Profession choices to things like Fisherman (net and spear), Skinner, Herbalist (shaman trainee), Boyer/fletcher, Etc.
I can't justify giving them the whole list (Conan the Librarian still cracks me up) but I can't justify NOT giving them the choices that make "Real World" sense.
I can also see the designers point of view as well..Differences make for a more vibrant setting. But this is one case (of VERY few) where I home ruled away from PF RAW...this is a good thing as far as I am concerned, because if there is so little stuff that needs home ruled that I am looking at a profession skill for a Barbarian then it is a very solid, playable system.
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If you're a barbarian, you don't need a job. You get what you want by making Survival checks and attack rolls.
The same could be said for Druids and Rangers. They don't need Profession for the same reason Barbarian don't(Survival and attack rolls), yet they still have it..
And you don't need to be near a civilazation to learn how to herd animals. Or how to sail a ship. Or to butcher, trap, cook, cut wood, etc, etc...
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This is an issue I dealt with in my home game by limiting the Barb's Profession choices to things like Fisherman (net and spear), Skinner, Herbalist (shaman trainee), Boyer/fletcher, Etc.
In this edition of the rules herbalist and fletcher would better be covered as a craft skill instead of a profession skill. If you're using a net and a spear that would be more of an attack roll as well, so I'm fine with barbarians not having a profession (it upsets my wife, though, who wants to have profession: prostitute on her barbarian of Cheliax).
In fact, now that this thread has come along I'm a bit offended that druids have profession. They're only a half-step higher on the civility scale than barbarians.
Maybe it should have it, why not? I'd houserule it in if my player wanted his barbarian to have Profession...except maybe Librarian, unless he had a darned good reason. "You. Owe. Garn. LATE FEE!!!"
BUT you don't need to put skill points into Profession (xyz) to have that as part of your background. Honestly, how many Profession (Goatherd) checks are you really going to be called upon to make in game? That's better handled mechanically with Handle Animal anyway. Profession (Prostitute) checks? Not in my game but YMMV.
Profession doesn't come into much use in my games anyway though I try to put it into play if players pay skill points to add it to their sheets (that's only fair). Mostly ends up being akin to a Knowledge check, though I could see something like Sailor getting used a lot in a nautical campaign.
I'm a firm believer that this game should have primary (i.e. adventuring) skills, that work the way skills currently do, and background skills, that get paid for out of some pot available at character creation...and maybe along the way with character advancement too. Otherwise most players will rarely put skill points into interesting "character-building" skills like profession and craft.
M
Maybe it should have it, why not? I'd houserule it in if my player wanted his barbarian to have Profession...except maybe Librarian, unless he had a darned good reason. "You. Owe. Garn. LATE FEE!!!"
That got an honest-to-God laugh out loud from me. Bravo.
I'm a firm believer that this game should have primary (i.e. adventuring) skills, that work the way skills currently do, and background skills, that get paid for out of some pot available at character creation...and maybe along the way with character advancement too. Otherwise most players will rarely put skill points into interesting "character-building" skills like profession and craft.
I handle this by giving every character 2 extra skill points per level that can only be spent on a limited sub-set of skills, most of which have little direct use in most campaigns (sleight of hand, profession, craft, etc; the only common ones that are in the list are the knowledges and survival).
If this has been covered, direct me and I'll read it up there, BUT ... in a review of skills recently, I noticed that Barbarians are the ONLY class that does not have Profession as a class skill ... why is that?
It really sticks out (once you notice it) as something just *wrong* in the design - like it slipped through the cracks or something.
Seriously - why are they the ONLY class lacking this skill? (or on the reverse, why does every other class have it, but it's forbidden/non-class to Barbarians?)
Is this just some random little fluke?
The idea of profession seems to be "job" you do - why would a barbarian not be able to have a job?
**confused**
I know this doesn't exactly answer your question, but I'm of the opinion that no classes should get Profession or Craft as class skills. Why? Their profession and craft (or "job") is adventuring and these skills are the purview of NPC classes. Of course I can see some specific exceptions to this line of thinking: Alchemist gets Craft (alchemy) or the assassin PRC gets Craft (poison making) as a class skill for example.
Other than that, I don't think it is an oversight on the designer's part, but intentional. It's easily houseruled if it isn't to your liking.
EDIT: Just read the rest of the thread, disregard that last sentence :)
Barbarian: WELCOME TO BURGER KING, WHAT CAN I GET YOU?
Customer: I'd uh ... well ... uh ... hold on a sec ...
Barbarian: *rage*
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BUT you don't need to put skill points into Profession (xyz) to have that as part of your background. Honestly, how many Profession (Goatherd) checks are you really going to be called upon to make in game? That's better handled mechanically with Handle Animal anyway. Profession (Prostitute) checks? Not in my game but YMMV.
Profession doesn't come into much use in my games anyway though I try to put it into play if players pay skill points to add it to their sheets (that's only fair). Mostly ends up being akin to a Knowledge check, though I could see something like Sailor getting used a lot in a nautical campaign.
Indeed, a recent PFS scenario is much easier to survive if at least one of the PCs has Profession: Sailor.
The Profession checks aren't so much a measure of how good you are at a job, so much as how good you are at being professional, that is, businesslike about it. Many of my characters have had ranks in Profession: Bodyguard, or Profession: Temple Priest. That is, they knew the ropes, had professional contacts, and knew how to behave themselves in a businesslike demeanor.
I agree with you, mearrin69, that devoting points to a skill, like Profession, or Use Magic Device, or Stealth, is a player's vote that he'd like such skills to play a part in the campaign.
I definitely *try* to provide situations (even in published adventures) that let PCs use the features they've spent time developing. It's easier in a system like Pathfinder than in, say, GURPS - where things can get pretty far afield. In GURPS, if you paid for it with valuable character points, you definitely want to use it (and the GM has to try to get in some of the bad stuff they got points for as well).
M
The Profession checks aren't so much a measure of how good you are at a job, so much as how good you are at being professional, that is, businesslike about it.
This. A thousand times this.
It's not that all barbarian's are uncouth and uncivilized savages that can't read at all or hold down a job. In fact, nothing is stopping you from throwing skill points into any Profession if you so desire it.
However, what does characterize ALL Barbarians is a quick temper and a lack of discipline. This equates to a lack of professionalism on the behalf of any Barbarian. A Barbarian is just so much more likely to scream at customers and coworkers, break merchandise in frustration, or steer away from any strict regimen he is supposed to follow. In game terms, this translates into a -3 on all Profession checks made by Barbarians.
It makes perfect sense to me.
It seems right to me too, especially when you remember that barbarians use to be illiterate in 3.5. Barbarians in business suits will have to take skill focus for that new job.
This is an issue I dealt with in my home game by limiting the Barb's Profession choices to things like Fisherman (net and spear), Skinner, Herbalist (shaman trainee), Boyer/fletcher, Etc.
I can't justify giving them the whole list (Conan the Librarian still cracks me up) but I can't justify NOT giving them the choices that make "Real World" sense.
I can also see the designers point of view as well..Differences make for a more vibrant setting. But this is one case (of VERY few) where I home ruled away from PF RAW...this is a good thing as far as I am concerned, because if there is so little stuff that needs home ruled that I am looking at a profession skill for a Barbarian then it is a very solid, playable system.
This is very likely exactly what I'll end up doing in my own games.
I was mostly just wondering about the design (ie: intentional or oversight) as to why only 1 class was missing a rather "universal" sort of skill (especially since others that didn't have it previously suddenly picked it up).
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Keep in mind Native Americans are assumed to have very little written history and yet still considered "barbarians" (at least back in the day). A lot of tribes actually did have written histories, they used natural inks to write on piece of leather to be incorporated into clothing. They also threaded history into their clothing. the only downside is clothing does die out with time.
this being said profession should be a class skill. Barbarians are skinners, trackers, guides, survival expert, farmers, and herbalists.
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Barbarian: WELCOME TO BURGER KING, WHAT CAN I GET YOU?
Customer: I'd uh ... well ... uh ... hold on a sec ...
Barbarian: *rage*
LOL. Does this mean "The King" is the leader of a horde that has a blood feud with the McDonalds tribe? Because I would love to see some berserker fighting Ronald McDonald.
Profession is basically your character's non-adventuring trade, something they can do/have done for wages when they're not on the road. It represents apprenticeships or hobbies they learned when not studying for their main occupation. Most importantly, it represents what they have done working for someone else.
Barbarians do not have these things as part of their lifestyle. Their cultures are not formal enough to have wage jobs - indeed, most barbarian intra-tribal trading is more likely to be barter than cash, even when they have money. And most importantly, a barbarian is certainly not going to be working for someone else, for a wage, unless it's doing mercenary work - and even that isn't a 'job' so much as collecting money for doing violence, by request. Now, a barbarian might pick up a trade - tanner, herder, bodyguard - but they aren't as comfortable in it as someone raised in a civilized society would be. Civilized people tend to identify themselves with their occupation, barbarians identify themselves with their exploits. There is a huge difference between "Hi, I'm Stephen, I'm an accountant for H&R Block," and "I am Ferenz of the Skullbreaker tribe, slayer of the prince of Kasmir and taker of his women!"
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LOL. Does this mean "The King" is the leader of a horde that has a blood feud with the McDonalds tribe? Because I would love to see some berserker fighting Ronald McDonald.Barbarian: WELCOME TO BURGER KING, WHAT CAN I GET YOU?
Customer: I'd uh ... well ... uh ... hold on a sec ...
Barbarian: *rage*
Why am I seeing Braveheart?
Keep in mind Native Americans are assumed to have very little written history and yet still considered "barbarians" (at least back in the day). A lot of tribes actually did have written histories, they used natural inks to write on piece of leather to be incorporated into clothing. They also threaded history into their clothing. the only downside is clothing does die out with time.
this being said profession should be a class skill. Barbarians are skinners, trackers, guides, survival expert, farmers, and herbalists.
Everything you said is craft or other skills, none is profession.
Profession is instated as knowing how to run a BUSSINESS, knowing how to make things is craft.
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Keep in mind Native Americans are assumed to have very little written history and yet still considered "barbarians" (at least back in the day). A lot of tribes actually did have written histories, they used natural inks to write on piece of leather to be incorporated into clothing. They also threaded history into their clothing. the only downside is clothing does die out with time.
this being said profession should be a class skill. Barbarians are skinners, trackers, guides, survival expert, farmers, and herbalists.
Everything you said is craft or other skills, none is profession.
Profession is instated as knowing how to run a BUSSINESS, knowing how to make things is craft.
Being a fisherman is a business?
Edit: What about Profession (Soldier)? Why does a guy who grew up on city streets using his anger to survive before joining the military not get the +3 bonus?
Being a fisherman is a business?Keep in mind Native Americans are assumed to have very little written history and yet still considered "barbarians" (at least back in the day). A lot of tribes actually did have written histories, they used natural inks to write on piece of leather to be incorporated into clothing. They also threaded history into their clothing. the only downside is clothing does die out with time.
this being said profession should be a class skill. Barbarians are skinners, trackers, guides, survival expert, farmers, and herbalists.
Everything you said is craft or other skills, none is profession.
Profession is instated as knowing how to run a BUSSINESS, knowing how to make things is craft.
Being an owner of a fishmarket is. Hunting is a skill under survival (as fishing).
Now, drying the fish properly, putting it on ice (or salt) knowing the weight of the fish, how best to cook each kind of fish, what time of the year is best to get each kind of fish, when it's fresh and how much does it cost in each region is a Profession.
Edit: What about Profession (Soldier)? Why does a guy who grew up on city streets using his anger to survive before joining the military not get the +3 bonus?
Well mate if a guy grew on the streets using his "anger" he is not really a Barbarian. He could be a rogue/barbarian, or a fighter/barbarian. Barbarians are as prone to the wilderness as a Druid and a Ranger. You COULD say they were raised in the streets... but how would they get the skills and abilities they have?
I understand what you are saying, but a BARBARIAN is indeed a BARBARIAN. He is a guy of the wild. And as stated before he CAN have profession, he is just not gonna be as good as it as most people, I don't see a problem.
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Edit: What about Profession (Soldier)? Why does a guy who grew up on city streets using his anger to survive before joining the military not get the +3 bonus?Well mate if a guy grew on the streets using his "anger" he is not really a Barbarian. He could be a rogue/barbarian, or a fighter/barbarian. Barbarians are as prone to the wilderness as a Druid and a Ranger. You COULD say they were raised in the streets... but how would they get the skills and abilities they have?
I understand what you are saying, but a BARBARIAN is indeed a BARBARIAN. He is a guy of the wild. And as stated before he CAN have profession, he is just not gonna be as good as it as most people, I don't see a problem.
So you're saying you're only a Barbarian if you grew up in the wild as a savage? Way to stereotype. :P Next you'll tell me to be a Rogue you HAVE to be part of the thieves guild.
So you're saying you're only a Barbarian if you grew up in the wild as a savage? Way to stereotype. :P Next you'll tell me to be a Rogue you HAVE to be part of the thieves guild.
Edit: What about Profession (Soldier)? Why does a guy who grew up on city streets using his anger to survive before joining the military not get the +3 bonus?Well mate if a guy grew on the streets using his "anger" he is not really a Barbarian. He could be a rogue/barbarian, or a fighter/barbarian. Barbarians are as prone to the wilderness as a Druid and a Ranger. You COULD say they were raised in the streets... but how would they get the skills and abilities they have?
I understand what you are saying, but a BARBARIAN is indeed a BARBARIAN. He is a guy of the wild. And as stated before he CAN have profession, he is just not gonna be as good as it as most people, I don't see a problem.
Yes I am, actually. Some part of your background should be there at least.
Now, what YOU are saying is as far fetched as saying that a Fighter shouldn't have any fighting in his background.PS.: First time I disagre with you on something, I like it :)
Look at it this way: A druid is essentially a veterinarian, wildlife conservationist, wiccan, botanist, holistic doctor, and field researcher. If nothing else, it would make proper sense for them to be able to run a business using botanical products - heck, those roadside stands offering organic produce you see sometimes? Think of them as druids retired from the road and supporting themselves. Or they might have a refuge for rehabilitating injured or abandoned wild animals - yes, it's part of their calling, but it is also a job, one that a charitable noble might establish as repayment to them for some adventure or another. The point is, while a druid is attuned to the natural world, they are able to maintain a non-adventuring occupation without abandoning who they are. Hence, they qualify for a profession. Druids also know how to function in a hierarchy and work at someone else's behest.
A Ranger is a forester, scout, and special operations warrior. Seriously - favored terrain, favored enemy, fighting style; that's an MOS. Again, there's a lot they can do as a job that doesn't qualify as adventure. Hunting guide, wildlife expert, survival instructor, game warden... all of these are jobs they can do as their own business, or working for someone else.
My point is, it makes sense for the other "wilderness based" classes to have professions, because they're still in tuned with civilization and structure, even if they may find it distasteful.
But a Barbarian is about chaos, unpredictability, conquest, taking whatever they are able from whomever they want. They strive to survive on their terms, no one else's. It doesn't matter if they're from a hill tribe of Cimmerians or Viking clan from Trondheim - a Barbarian is an anarchistic rugged individualist, which is the opposite of holding a steady job. A Barbarian is essentially a wild beast that cannot be fettered without destroying who they are.