I thought I was too mad to smurf, but I was wrong.
It's never too late to say I smurf you.
LT, he's trying to miss your point.
You totally missed my point. My point is that the game system has to have some default substance, whether you agree with it or not.
When there isn't one, it ain't hard.
Smurf Man!
rowr.
@LilithsThrall:
Is "frenzy berserker" a PrC?
I really -really- think the problem is that some people think "Barbarian" , in the game, refers to a culture or cultures of complex agriculturalists.
Rather, a culture has Barbarians. But it -also- can have farmers, fishers, etc.
Yes, and some people here seem to be equating the class Barbarian with a culture referred to as barbarian, and using that as grounds for why Barbarians do not get Profession. I could be wrong, but that's what I've been arguing against.
As for the confusion about the difference of my previous statements, I state that 'the Barbarian class does not only represent savage berserkers who tap into primal rage to destroy all in their path, therefore the Barbarian class should get Profession as a class skill'.
As I said before, it seems some people seem to believe 'the Barbarian class represents berserkers who tap into primal rage to destroy all in their path, therefore the Barbarian class should NOT get Profession as a class skill'.
This is what I argue against, along with 'barbarian society does not allow for Profession'.
+10! This is exactly what I was getting at before. "racist" may have taken it far, but the idea is better articulated and exactly what I was drawing attention to in the first place.
QUOTE]
If you bothered to READ you'd have seen this, more or less final thought on the matter where TriOmega clarified, and I completely backed him on that.
You totally missed my point. My point is that the game system has to have some default substance, whether you agree with it or not.LT, he's trying to miss your point.
Smurf and move on.
Yeah, I'm starting to think that people are arguing just to be arguing, not even trying to have a constructive discussion here.
You think? Heh.
And I am amused that nobody has tried to shoot down the "anarcho-communist commune economic model does not work with the profession skill RAW" argument...
I almost did.
So if we can just do a run around on every single profession with other skills, how do we even justify the inclusion of profession into the game?
FWIW, I just don't see the Barbarian archetype EVER doing a job for a wage. So, profession class skill or not, I would never take it.
architect - I'll take craft carpenter and do it myself, with Knowledge Architecture
baker - Craft
barrister - Intimidate/Diplomacy
brewer - Craft
butcher - Survival
clerk - First I would need to be literate...
cook - Craft
courtesan - Bluff
driver - You really think NY cabbies have this as a skill, not Rage?
engineer - Craft/Knowledge Engineering
farmer - Survival/Knowledge Nature
fisherman - Survival/Knowledge Nature
gambler - Bluff
gardener - Survival/Knowledge Nature
herbalist - Survival/Craft
innkeeper - A Barbarian innkeeper? Give me a break.
librarian - Knowledge!
merchant - Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate
midwife - Knowledge Nature
miller - Craft
miner - Knowledge Dungeoneering
porter - RAGE (for the bonus to STR)
sailor - Knowledge Nature
scribe - Literacy first
shepherd - Animal Handling
stable master - Animal Handling
soldier - Um, Barbarian? It IS a profession after all!
tanner - Survival
trapper - Survival/Knowledge Nature
woodcutter - BAB + STR + Greataxe = Barbarian Lumberjack!Basically, I see no need for the Barb to work for anyone else when they should really just be all about doing it themselves. Remember the Chaotic alignment? Desire for freedom? To be one's own master? To live the way you want? That does not compute well with "Punch in, 9-5, another day, another 3sp..."
And as for Druids, I wouldn't have given THEM profession either, except that you could argue some sort of apprenticeship, where you learned the profession because the Heirophant demanded you earn your keep while he taught you the mysteries of nature.
That is what Profession is all about. Craft(metalworking) let's you make horseshoes, nails, etc. Profession(blacksmith) says you can not only perform the necessary actions to earn a wage, but you know how a shop is supposed to be run.
Or you use Diplomacy. See, there is no reason to have profession for that use.
You use diplomacy to deal with people, but how much does your good customer service impact your bottom line? Profession provides just such a mechanic, Diplomacy does not.That is what Profession is all about. Craft(metalworking) let's you make horseshoes, nails, etc. Profession(blacksmith) says you can not only perform the necessary actions to earn a wage, but you know how a shop is supposed to be run.Or you use Diplomacy. See, there is no reason to have profession for that use.
How does survival determine how much I earn as a butcher? How does bluff determine how much I earn as a gambler? How does intimidate/diplomacy determine how much I earn as a barrister? Sorry my friend, but you are the one that suggested that we could do a work around on the profession skill, you can't really now say that doing so doesn't work.
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I wish the John Belushi's old Samurai Optometrist / Delicatessen / Gynecologist sketches were more readily available online, 'cause I think they'd be totally appropriate here. :)
Yet another silly side-effect of Gary Gygax naming a perfectly serviceable Berserker class a 'Barbarian' and managing to turn it into a debate about whether or not anyone in the universe had a job before we invented guns. Obviously little-b 'barbarians' had jobs. Some herded goats. Some butchered cattle. Some made swords. Some brewed mead. Some kept bees. Some build viking longships. Some made clothing. Some carved pretty scrimshaw. Some fished. Some made nets. Some crafted jewelry. Some raised hounds. Some made a living *braiding hair* or painting designs on other people's faces! ["Tell me, does this woad make me look fat?" "No, the fact that you're fat makes you look fat, the woad only makes you look like a Mel Gibson wannabe."]
The 'bear-shirt' berserkers who ran naked screaming into battle and had a lifespan of 2.8 seconds after the battle was engaged? Probably not so handy around the butter-churn, so I'm okay with those highly-specialized psychopaths, rumored in some cultures to have been 'raised with the dogs, so that they'd learn to be vicious' having nothing to do with the life of a working 'barbarian.'
How does survival determine how much I earn as a butcher?You use survival to hunt game and dress the meat. Meat prices are listed in the SRD. The DM may choose to modify this however they please.
How does bluff determine how much I earn as a gambler?Bluff determines the likely outcomes of the game, provided the game is one where bluffing your opponents is a factor. The game itself dictates how much you win/lose.
How does intimidate/diplomacy determine how much I earn as a barrister?Lawyers need to be able to convince people of what they advise. That is the role. How much you earn is dependant on your client.
Goods have prices as well, you don't need to have profession(blacksmith) to figure out how you earn your pay. And diplomacy can make people willing to pay more or less than the typical cost, much like your lawyer example. So it looks like from your comments here that profession is not really of any value as you can get all the same results with other skills.
And I am amused that nobody has tried to shoot down the "anarcho-communist commune economic model does not work with the profession skill RAW" argument...
You know what - ultimately, this is exactly correct for the mechanics of the thing.
RAW, design intent and all - this is how it is.
The other things mentioned move away from RAW, and for that "don't count" I suppose.
That said, it's not about RAW, or the game mechanics - it's been more about the "why's" behind it and where it leads. Regardless of assertions that we have no clue of anthropological societies (which is patently untrue) every culture has some basis of economy - even if you want to call it just "work" there are those that master it and perform it and are compensated for it.
If you want to be blind to that - you're call. However, on the RAW parts - your side wins, 100%. {but again, my/our points were never about that in the first place ...}
On a final note - given the RAW thing, the developers answers, etc I'd suggest letting this thread die quietly in the corner if possible at this point.
Each side's been pretty clear about who's coming from what stance and it's not likely to change - at all. So, thread-wise, this is pretty dead. I'd suggest further discussion move to some new thread for a different topic, but honestly - even that I'd like to see die and just get back to the game-talk again. This is just getting off to the point of absurdity and really is producing NOTHING productive, with the only exception being of perhaps the Profession skill shouldn't be there in the first place (honestly, the only worth-while thing that's popped up in like 6+ pages of discussion beyond the designer's answering my initial question).
Regardless of assertions that we have no clue of anthropological societies (which is patently untrue) every culture has some basis of economy - even if you want to call it just "work" there are those that master it and perform it and are compensated for it.We're clearly not talking about people mastering work and being compensated for it. "Profession" involves separation of labor.
Just for the sake of my curiosity, explain your concept of "profession" as it manifests among the !Kung of Africa. As I've said, there's no such concept among the !Kung (for obvious reasons), but I'd like to see how you squeeze a square peg into a round hole.
Yes Speaker, with the experience of all those years you spent with these remote people, let's see you explain the details of their life style with your "work" fancy speak.
At the very least, I'm sure that you've seen, "The Gods Must be Crazy", and therefore are an expert on these people's way of life.
Smurfs are barbarians.
Look they are not wearing shirts.
Yet they had division of labor
sage
baker
laborer
builder
looker
I doubt anyone will disagree with a fact as patently obvious as smurfs being barbarians!
Papa smurf was a barbarian sorcerer!
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a debate about whether or not anyone in the universe had a job before we invented guns. Obviously little-b 'barbarians' had jobs.I've said it before, I'll say it again (though, at this point, I feel I'm pissing into the wind), specialization of labor is associated with complex agriculture.
That's just silly. Long before complex agriculture, there were people who were specialized in various tasks around the camp. There have always been people who couldn't forage or hunt, for whatever reason (the aged, the crippled, etc.), and primitive societies have always found uses for them in preparing game or mending clothes or watching the kids while the more able-bodied were out there digging up taters or tickling fish.
*Lions* have specialists, with different members of the pride being the 'expert' on different types of game. Chimps very much have specialists, as do dolphins, as do flocks of geese.
I suspect that you are taking 'associated with' and conflating it with 'limited to.' It was *easier* for someone to make a living providing goods and / or services to the people producing the foodstuffs when there were people using agriculture to produce more food than they needed, but specialists didn't appear overnight alongside advanced agriculture. The seeds where there long before, and what D&D traditionally calls 'barbarians' are more associated with the mongols and vikings, both of whom very much had professions (heck, they even had professional *storytellers,* so how's that for not putting food in anyone's belly!), not cro-magnon man.
I'm just gonna restate what I said earlier with TOZ. He was saying that they could be fishermand, thus my answer.
Being an owner of a fishmarket is (a profession). Hunting is a skill under survival (as fishing).
Now, drying the fish properly, putting it on ice (or salt) knowing the weight of the fish, how best to cook each kind of fish, what time of the year is best to get each kind of fish, when it's fresh and how much does it cost in each region is a Profession.
What I see here is that EVERYONE that wants barbarians to have profession as a class skill are not talking about the profession skill AT ALL. You are all either talking about Craft or survival. Seriously, take a look at the skill chapter and see the difference.
I just can't imagine a Professional Barbarian . . .it just conjures up Bill Murray in GEICO Caveman makeup saying, "back off we are scientists" or something like that.
I think that in this case, the problem comes from the fact that the Profession skill doesn't differentiate "how good you are at doing something" from "how good a businessman you are".
I don't see why barbarians shouldn't excel at sailing because they are Barbarians, even if they would not be expected to generate a lot of money from that skill. Perhaps I have a wrong impression of Barbarians and that they really are not much more than a specific caste of warriors that can get into a fighting frenzy (the berserker concept) to the point that they can't properly learn ho to be a good sailor. If that is so, then I can't really conceive why Craft would be a class skill for them, nor any skills that are not directly related to combat and we fall in the Conan wasn't a Barbarian thing again...
Concepts (such as the profession skill) are usually pretty broad in Pathfinder RPG, which led me to believe that the Barbarian class was more than a berserker. From what I can remember of the 1st edition, they are a combination of the Barbarian (the uncanny dodge legacy) and the Berserker (the rage legacy).
As for hunting and fishing being part of Survival, I partly disagree. Catching a fish with improvised tools would be a Survival check. Feeding a village is something else. Trapping a brace of rabbit overnight is Survival, hunting a deer has more to do with Stealth, Knowledge of Nature, proficiency with a bow and a high BAB. In your typical barbarian village, both Hunter and fisherman would be Experts anyway and wouldn't have a PC class. But I don't see why your Barbarian PC should be less apt to hunt and fish than your Wizard PC. If I create a bunch of barbarian raiders coming from the seas during the rough season (which would imply that they are good sailors) I don't want to make an encounter made of Fighters and Experts under the pretenses that "Barbarians being poor sailors wouldn't have made the trip".
Yes, the difference between class skills and cross-class skills is only +3, but for skills used mainly at low levels and skills that usually don't see a lot of investment (the professional skill being one of them), +3 makes a big difference.
Personally, I think that this whole discussion is based on the fact that the whole economic aspect is not the main strength of the game and to be fair with the designers, none pretended that is was the main focus of the game.
'findel
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I'm just gonna restate what I said earlier with TOZ. He was saying that they could be fishermand, thus my answer.
Being an owner of a fishmarket is (a profession). Hunting is a skill under survival (as fishing).
Now, drying the fish properly, putting it on ice (or salt) knowing the weight of the fish, how best to cook each kind of fish, what time of the year is best to get each kind of fish, when it's fresh and how much does it cost in each region is a Profession.What I see here is that EVERYONE that wants barbarians to have profession as a class skill are not talking about the profession skill AT ALL. You are all either talking about Craft or survival. Seriously, take a look at the skill chapter and see the difference.
I did go back and read the skill section, and I don't see why a Barbarian wouldn't be just as good at being a fisherman, even as you state it.
I did go back and read the skill section, and I don't see why a Barbarian wouldn't be just as good at being a fisherman, even as you state it.I'm just gonna restate what I said earlier with TOZ. He was saying that they could be fishermand, thus my answer.
Being an owner of a fishmarket is (a profession). Hunting is a skill under survival (as fishing).
Now, drying the fish properly, putting it on ice (or salt) knowing the weight of the fish, how best to cook each kind of fish, what time of the year is best to get each kind of fish, when it's fresh and how much does it cost in each region is a Profession.What I see here is that EVERYONE that wants barbarians to have profession as a class skill are not talking about the profession skill AT ALL. You are all either talking about Craft or survival. Seriously, take a look at the skill chapter and see the difference.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one my friend. :)
Clearly, I was talking about adults. But children start working much much earlier than children do in our culture.You know what generally happens to people who can't forage or hunt in foraging cultures? They die.I guess that's why they're all dead. Since infants and children can't hunt and forage, they must have all died before becoming adults.
Your logic is faultless.
Yes, children would contribute early to the society. The main difference however was the lack of concept of adolescence. Kids went directly from children to adult. "teenagers" is a post-WWII concept.
They could be a prostitute.
That's a profession.Urban Cowboy with Fafhrd Buck and Ratzo Rizzo mouser.
Thatt'l work.
"Umma go Lankmahr in bay uh jaggalow."
"I'm wawkin heah!!!"
I struggle to conjure up that image in my mind....
Said barbarian wouldnt need a pimp, they'd just Rage at the guy who didnt pay them. That and I'd imagine a six and a half foot tall figure with eye popping muscles hustling a street corner, chasing other nightwalkers off their patch to be comedic at best.
...Thats not to say they cant do it of course.
But in general, the issue of Profession...ITS NOT LIKE THEY CANT TAKE IT OR SOMETHING, they CAN, but its not a natural inclination they have to stand around day after day doing something tedious and repetitive. The Barbarians description says that they "Live for the moment", they are focused on battle and long for glory and victory.
If they named the class Beserker or something nobody would be arguing here.
Most NPC tribesmen have the Warrior NPC class, so they CAN do Professions (and its a class skill) if they want to like any other class, but Barbarians are more or less elite warrior beserkers of that tribe/village...thats what the class description in the PF Core Rulebook paints them as. They are more or less specialised warriors who focus on fighting rather than herding or butter churning...they leave those menial jobs to the other tribesmen/villagers.
If you dont like the assumption that Barbarians are short tempered raging battle machines?, play a Fighter or Ranger then, you could 'call' yourself a Barbarian sure, without the stigma attached.
Theres the easiest answer/solution of all.
Most NPC tribesmen have the Warrior NPC class, so they CAN do Professions (and its a class skill) if they want to like any other class, but Barbarians are more or less elite warrior beserkers of that tribe/village...thats what the class description in the PF Core Rulebook paints them as. They are more or less specialised warriors who focus on fighting rather than herding or butter churning...they leave those menial jobs to the other tribesmen/villagers.
If so, why would they need Craft as a class skill?
6 pages arguing over a mere +3 untyped bonus to a skill I have never used.
Lets try and be Smerf-y and leave it alone! Talking like this isn't going to change anything.
6 pages arguing over a mere +3 untyped bonus to a skill I have never used.
Lets try and be Smerf-y and leave it alone! Talking like this isn't going to change anything.
Awh come on Captain, you know better than to participate in a tread only to mention that you don't want to participate! :)
Still, when a thread reaches 6 pages, it usually means that the OP struck a sensible chord. This tread was a good insight as to what Paizo consider the Barbarian to be, to what degree it clashes with the general mentality and opens new view on how people use some skills. Even if you personally do not use the skill that was the center of this particular thread, it doesn't mean other people don't.
amicably
'findel