Something I never understood - if a player wants to magically stab dudes, why doesn't that player just get a magic sword? Or get the party wizard/cleric/whatever to enchant his sword before battle? This way you don't have to worry about creating new classes/feats/class features, encourage party teamwork, and can still fight in melee with potent offensive magic.
Something I never understood - if a player wants to magically stab dudes, why doesn't that player just get a magic sword? Or get the party wizard/cleric/whatever to enchant his sword before battle? This way you don't have to worry about creating new classes/feats/class features, encourage party teamwork, and can still fight in melee with potent offensive magic.
Stabbing someone with a magic sword and stabbing dudes magically are two different things (odd i know). If they just wanted to be a fighter with a magic sword, you are completely correct, but its about alot more then that. It's just just about your weapon (though certainly a Martial Arcane Spell Caster would use a magic weapon), its about combining magic (buffs/debuffs/blast/defensive spells) with fighting (the actual stabing part). For instance, the Super Genius Archon not only casts spells but also has class features designed for mixing fighting and magic (called rivenspell). Eventually you can even deliver touch attacks through melee attacks (like a 3.5 duskblade but on a more limited basis).
The idea here is (for me at least) you are not as good a fighter as a pure martial class, and not as good a caster as a pure caster class, but when you combine both you get something equivalent (in terms of power to one or the other) but different.
It can also be about covering roles. You dont always have a cleric or a wizard. Either you have a small party (3 or less) or your group mates have just all decided to be rogues for that campaign and the party needs a front liner and a caster. The ability to at least partially cover the martial and arcane roles is important to the concept (again this is my opinion).
As I stared into the abyss, I saw a gish stare back at me. He said my god was dead. I weeped into my hands. No, my beloved Dionysus. No!
Magically stabbing people is overrated. Me, on the other hand, would prefer to magically blow up people with my rocket launcher. Now just stand still ... riiiggghtttt theeerrreee ...
Can you tell I'm not a nice guy?
See that is the issue, the term has "powergamer/munchkin" written all over it. It was made popular by just that type of player. Not even counting it's silly, does not mean what some think it does and makes zero sense unless you sit down and explain it.It's a trendy word not a descriptive one at all.
And yes as a while this place is anti- char op as char-op 80% of the time is munchkin/powergamers stuff that would not be allowed at most sane tables. Not all char-op folks are like that but from looking over the boards listed above, the ones that are not are in the minority
So yes the word carry's alot of bad usage and feeling with it. This is not a new thing it's just on this board more folks come out and say it is all.
That is a really broad sweeping generalization that is simply not true. Who defines what 'sane' is? Who are you to deride someones playing style? If a group enjoys that sort of thing who are you to say they are wrong?
The term doenst have anything written all over it. It has martial arcane caster written on it. And some old references to Wizards IP. But the 'bagage' is forced on it by people willyfully doing so. The term makes as much sense as any other in this game we play. You are just as likely to have to explain munchkin/powergamer to someone from outside the community as you are gish.
The kind of elitist 'my boards are better then your boards' or 'my table is better because i dont allow any of that munchkin crap' attitude has no place in any gaming community. You or anyone else has no right to tell someone their style of play is wrong, or is lacking sanity.
Umm, no. The Munchkin/PowerGamer set is far more vocal and far, far more aggressive is pushing its rather narrow agenda and play style. The various "gish" (and I have no problem with the term) threads display ample evidence of this. The same people who are constantly screeching about how everything is broken are the same people who are constantly screeching about how any build that doesn't grant 9th level spells is "totally underpowered and unplayable."
The majority of gamers here and IRL are more than happy to let others play their games in any way they see fit. If there is any "pushback" it's because of the endless, and I do mean endless, stream of posts from the same small group of posters decrying any build, any build at all, that isn't fully optimized and doing hundreds of points of damage each and every round as unplayable.
As I stared into the abyss, I saw a gish stare back at me. He said my god was dead. I weeped into my hands. No, my beloved Dionysus. No!
Get a grip: tear the gish to pieces as a sacrifice to me.
The same people who are constantly screeching about how everything is broken are the same people who are constantly screeching about how any build that doesn't grant 9th level spells is "totally underpowered and unplayable."
Can you supply a link or two where this has occurred, it might be interesting reading for all involved in the discussion.
Optimizing a Gish is no worse then optimizing a Fighter (hello, Uber Charger), a Mage (Hello, Batman), A cleric/Druid (hello, CoDzilla), a Bard (Hello, Army Buffer) or WHATEVER. Gish tends to catch flak because you're then buffing something so it's good at TWO classes worth of stuff, instead of one.
THe problem is optimizing the IDEA of a Gish, so it AUTOMATICALLY becomes the equal of a fighter OR a mage, in one package. Yet that is the goal of optimizing...to do just that.
Just remember that most Optimizers are just doing math adn building theory, just like Pun-Pun...an exercise in build theory no one would ever play. They'd never use most of the things they present, and would expect to be smacked down if they tried, especially the ones using 'creative' rules interpretations.
Now, munchkins are a totally different set, and tend to be despised wherever they go. Just don't lump the two together. Power-Gamers can be munchkins, but aren't always, either.
==Aelryinth
Optimizing a Gish is no worse then optimizing a Fighter (hello, Uber Charger), a Mage (Hello, Batman), A cleric/Druid (hello, CoDzilla), a Bard (Hello, Army Buffer) or WHATEVER. Gish tends to catch flak because you're then buffing something so it's good at TWO classes worth of stuff, instead of one.
THe problem is optimizing the IDEA of a Gish, so it AUTOMATICALLY becomes the equal of a fighter OR a mage, in one package. Yet that is the goal of optimizing...to do just that.
Just remember that most Optimizers are just doing math adn building theory, just like Pun-Pun...an exercise in build theory no one would ever play. They'd never use most of the things they present, and would expect to be smacked down if they tried, especially the ones using 'creative' rules interpretations.
Now, munchkins are a totally different set, and tend to be despised wherever they go. Just don't lump the two together. Power-Gamers can be munchkins, but aren't always, either.
==Aelryinth
Fair enough. Sometimes it is difficult to tell the difference, on the boards, anyway.
First off Brian it's not my fault the term gained traction with munchkins and some boards who do have a reputation for off the wall insane stuff most folks would say no to. When those folks uses such terms as "Utter fail" every other post and "weaksauces" It's not my fault they are labeled as powergamers and munchkins. I never called out posters or even boards by name, if ya knew the ones I meant then well you know what reputation they have then don't ya.
The kind of elitist 'my boards are better then your boards' or 'my table is better because i dont allow any of that munchkin crap' attitude has no place in any gaming community. You or anyone else has no right to tell someone their style of play is wrong, or is lacking sanity.
I can respect your views, however the very folks I pointed out are the first ones to tell other posters how much their game "fails". Maybe some of us are tired of being told we are playing wrong if we do not min/max, use loopholes or go out of are way to brake games. Ever thought of that?
You have a fine double standard going on there man.
EDIT: I want to point out I am not attacking any posters here, I have named no one. However the word have become linked with powergamers and munchkins, for better or worse it has.
Gish is an invented term which there are other terms which are MORE USEFUL without the baggage that gish brings along with it.Terms such as?
Haha...I love Man in Black - he's such a Gish.
First off Brian it's not my fault the term gained traction with munchkins and some boards who do have a reputation for off the wall insane stuff most folks would say no to. When those folks uses such terms as "Utter fail" every other post and "weaksauces" It's not my fault they are labeled as powergamers and munchkins. I never called out posters or even boards by name, if ya knew the ones I meant then well you know what reputation they have then don't ya.
The kind of elitist 'my boards are better then your boards' or 'my table is better because i dont allow any of that munchkin crap' attitude has no place in any gaming community. You or anyone else has no right to tell someone their style of play is wrong, or is lacking sanity.
I can respect your views, however the very folks I pointed out are the first ones to tell other posters how much their game "fails". Maybe some of us are tired of being told we are playing wrong if we do not min/max, use loopholes or go out of are way to brake games. Ever thought of that?
You have a fine double standard going on there man.
EDIT: I want to point out I am not attacking any posters here, I have named no one. However the word have become linked with powergamers and munchkins, for better or worse it has.
Sorry, you are going to have to give some links if you want your statements to be taken seriously.
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The kind of elitist 'my boards are better then your boards' or 'my table is better because i dont allow any of that munchkin crap' attitude has no place in any gaming community. You or anyone else has no right to tell someone their style of play is wrong, or is lacking sanity.
Quite true. But you see, that means that the extremely vocal char-op folks who scream that the game is "full of fail" or "broken" because their build demand doesn't have an official existence need to remember that as well. if the demand for a gish in the style mentioned in this thread was really all that high, don't you think Paizo would have published it already? After all, meeting customer demand is what successful companies do.
Many options exist in the RAW that allow this trope to be effective. you're buying versatility with a gish. your combat skills and magic skills are ALMOST as good as a straight class, but in any given circumstance you have more options available to you than a single class character. As a gish, you are a swiss army knife, not a bowie.
Pressman I am not doing crossboard linking as I have no interest in a crossboards war. However you can go look though the Char-OP forms of the list AMIB gave. You'll find them fast on a few of those sites or your simply ignoring them.
Magically stabbing people is overrated. Me, on the other hand, would prefer to magically blow up people with my rocket launcher. Now just stand still ... riiiggghtttt theeerrreee ...
Can you tell I'm not a nice guy?
Hey, weren't you on That 70s Show?
I've seen far more elitism and "anti-munchkinism" on these forums then the other way around. Hell, just look at this thread. There's a very big feel here that thinking of the math in a math driven tabletop game somehow makes you worse at roleplaying.
When people here ask for advice on a character, and they're given mechanical advice, others snub them and tell them "Oh just do what your character would do!" The problem is, that's the exact opposite of giving advice! Misconceptions abound, with some people claiming that warlocks, duskblades, and psychic warriors are overpowered, and then, when asked why they think that, the honest is almost always either "well they just are" or "because they're for optimizers.
I think the big issue is that some people are interested in the math that is, flat out, a part of the game. You can't pretend the math doesn't exist in a game driven by it. Others on these forums are not. And that's fine. Not everyone has to care. The issue is that the latter group tends to make a lot of judgements about the former. When I say "Clerics are better off not healing," the immediate response is one that's extremely judgemental, both about myself and my DM.
I'm not saying these are terrible or bad forums, but don't pretend your crap don't stink.
The Professor's words are still quite true, and I back them up heartily.
As I stared into the abyss, I saw a gish stare back at me. He said my god was dead. I weeped into my hands. No, my beloved Dionysus. No!Get a grip: tear the gish to pieces as a sacrifice to me.
...but...the...but....the horse said you were dead. I'm never going to Turin again.
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I've seen far more elitism and "anti-munchkinism" on these forums then the other way around. Hell, just look at this thread. There's a very big feel here that thinking of the math in a math driven tabletop game somehow makes you worse at roleplaying.
When people here ask for advice on a character, and they're given mechanical advice, others snub them and tell them "Oh just do what your character would do!" The problem is, that's the exact opposite of giving advice! Misconceptions abound, with some people claiming that warlocks, duskblades, and psychic warriors are overpowered, and then, when asked why they think that, the honest is almost always either "well they just are" or "because they're for optimizers.
I think the big issue is that some people are interested in the math that is, flat out, a part of the game. You can't pretend the math doesn't exist in a game driven by it. Others on these forums are not. And that's fine. Not everyone has to care. The issue is that the latter group tends to make a lot of judgements about the former. When I say "Clerics are better off not healing," the immediate response is one that's extremely judgemental, both about myself and my DM.
I'm not saying these are terrible or bad forums, but don't pretend your crap don't stink.
OP asked what a "gish" was, he didn't ask for the quadratic equation.
stuff[robot vioce]
You are under arrest!
[/robot voice]:)
Come on now, man, you're making me nervous. Come on, you can't do this! Don't mess around! Hey! Hey! Hey, man, now don't get cute!
Hey, weren't you on That 70s Show?
<aims the launcher at meatrace's hand>
Well, give the man a hand!
OP asked what a "gish" was, he didn't ask for the quadratic equation.
Wow you missed the point of that post.
But still, how does "omg gish is for power gamers and munchkins and we don't like those kind around here, its a stupid, purely sexual word rabble rabble" answer the OP's question.
It's a term, you don't like it so don't use it, but I'm sick of people having a frickin coniption because some people do.
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OP asked what a "gish" was, he didn't ask for the quadratic equation.Wow you missed the point of that post.
But still, how does "omg gish is for power gamers and munchkins and we don't like those kind around here, its a stupid, purely sexual word rabble rabble" answer the OP's question.
It's a term, you don't like it so don't use it, but I'm sick of people having a frickin coniption because some people do.
No, I got the point, it's just it had no point in this particular thread, seeing as this isn't a mechanics thread.
OP asked what a "gish" was, he didn't ask for the quadratic equation.Wow you missed the point of that post.
But still, how does "omg gish is for power gamers and munchkins and we don't like those kind around here, its a stupid, purely sexual word rabble rabble" answer the OP's question.
It's a term, you don't like it so don't use it, but I'm sick of people having a frickin coniption because some people do.
No, I got the point, it's just it had no point in this particular thread, seeing as this isn't a mechanics thread.
Then...I don't think you got the point.
The point is that people are decrying the use of the term Gish because it was "only" used by powergamers and munchkinds. Prof's point is that is a silly reason to rage on the boards, because like it or not optimization is part of the game. Even assuming that Gish was only used by powergamers and munchkins it would be a lousy reason to stop its use.
OP asked what a "gish" was, he didn't ask for the quadratic equation.Then...I don't think you got the point.
The point is that people are decrying the use of the term Gish because it was "only" used by powergamers and munchkinds. Prof's point is that is a silly reason to rage on the boards, because like it or not optimization is part of the game. Even assuming that Gish was only used by powergamers and munchkins it would be a lousy reason to stop its use.
Plus, there is still substantive dissonance as to what consititutes an acceptable level of "stabbing dudes magically" to qualify as satisfying the concept.
Char-OP wise, +16 BAB and 9th level spells is one way to define it, but I think that is not what most people are looking for when they are worried about the effectiveness of the Fighter(Barb/Ranger/Paladin)1/Wizard5(Sorc6)/Eldritch Knight4 build, and specifically the portions of that which are Fighter1/Wizard5, or any of the alternatives. Builds and math are important, as there is really no way to make a level 6 Jedi right now in the RAW without dipping into both 3.5 sources and alternate mechanics, like psionics and the duskblade's altered casting mechanisms. The Bard doesn't currently have any great synergy with casting blasts and debuffs and melee, and while the APG Beta Alchemist does a solid job at buffing, the flavor of extracts doesn't read as casting spells to people.
Since the standard of what people are actually looking for when they use that word is literally all across the map, bringing the maths into the discussion is necessary, in some ways, since combining the fluff and crunch in a useful and meaningful way is important.
First off Brian it's not my fault the term gained traction with munchkins and some boards who do have a reputation for off the wall insane stuff most folks would say no to. When those folks uses such terms as "Utter fail" every other post and "weaksauces" It's not my fault they are labeled as powergamers and munchkins. I never called out posters or even boards by name, if ya knew the ones I meant then well you know what reputation they have then don't ya.
The kind of elitist 'my boards are better then your boards' or 'my table is better because i dont allow any of that munchkin crap' attitude has no place in any gaming community. You or anyone else has no right to tell someone their style of play is wrong, or is lacking sanity.
I can respect your views, however the very folks I pointed out are the first ones to tell other posters how much their game "fails". Maybe some of us are tired of being told we are playing wrong if we do not min/max, use loopholes or go out of are way to brake games. Ever thought of that?
You have a fine double standard going on there man.
EDIT: I want to point out I am not attacking any posters here, I have named no one. However the word have become linked with powergamers and munchkins, for better or worse it has.
I assure you, I apply no double standard. The extreme cases of powergaming/munchkinism, I disagree with just as strongly. I also dont believe in telling people their build is 'wrong' because it's not optimal. It is only when people deliberately take foolish options for 'role play' purposes that i'll say something. After all a completely not functional character is just as disruptive to a game as a broken one.
For instance, using crossbows is suboptimal, we all know that. But, if someone wants to play a crossbow using ranger with the archery style I wont tell them their build is wrong. I'll say bows are better, but if you want to use crossbows i recomend X, Y and Z. If however someone say wants to use the archery style ranger, with an 8 dex and not take point blank shot I'd likely tell them they are going to be disruptive to their game (assuming the dm uses appropriate CR enemies in combats).
I cannot speak for everyone, only myself. But I know there are many optimizers who do not say 'your game fails' because your character is suboptimal.
Myself, I number crunch. I look at potential exploits. That's how my druid is swinging his huge greatclub for 12d8 damage with Shilleleigh and Vital Strike.
Just FYI, shillelagh doesn't work on greatclubs, it works on clubs and quarterstaves.
Carry on.
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stuff[robot vioce]
You are under arrest!
[/robot voice]:)
Come on now, man, you're making me nervous. Come on, you can't do this! Don't mess around! Hey! Hey! Hey, man, now don't get cute!
[less than normal robot voice]
I'm not here to arrest you any more[/less than normal robot voice]
as I stupidly ignor you looking up at the sky and a strange noise of grinding metal above me. . .
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Do you admit to the existence of witches now, Ushiromiya Battler?
*flips the chessboard*
Thank you so SO much for getting that!
And I will deny their existance until the APG get's published!
Hey, I may battle you to the death over irrelevant rules minutiae, but I know a good anime quote when I see one!
People on one side see things one way, people on the other side see the reverse. Complaining that everyone does not see things your way is equivelant to throwing a tantrum in grade school.
Yes, that was more or less my point.
I'm not sure why you're acting like you disagree with me when, well, you don't.
Math is important. Fluff is important. They're both important. The problem is when you insult people for enjoying one, and I've seen a good number of people here insult others for enjoying the crunch and math aspect of the game.
My post came from others here stating "Well, there are optimizers who go around and browbeat others for having bad builds, so everyone who likes math deserves the insults," and frankly? I haven't seen that. At all. At. All. Not here. I've seen people get insulted for trying to help others with their build, but not the other way around.
OP asked what a "gish" was, he didn't ask for the quadratic equation.Wow you missed the point of that post.
But still, how does "omg gish is for power gamers and munchkins and we don't like those kind around here, its a stupid, purely sexual word rabble rabble" answer the OP's question.
It's a term, you don't like it so don't use it, but I'm sick of people having a frickin coniption because some people do.
+1
It is a style of character and nothing else. To make a such a broad statement that only power gamers and munchkins play them or want to play them only shows your ignorance and general hatred to an idea or even a simple word. What was that phrase; Sticks and Stones?
It isn't even directed toward these individuals getting offending or irritated. So I really don't see the point of this hostility.
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Let me point out that I have no problem with anyone stabbing anyone magically. I don't have a problem with the concept.
I just want to beat the living hell out of someone every time I hear or read the word "gish" (used in any context outside of a githyanki fighter/magic user of levels four and four), much like I want to beat the hell out of someone drinking PBR and discussing, in a superior manner, that band no one knows about (i.e. hipsters), or, you know, the French, on general principles.
But, since randomly beating the crap out of annoying people is illegal, I just flail ineffectually on my keyboard on an RPG forum.
:)
Wait, where's the random part?
Myself, I number crunch. I look at potential exploits. That's how my druid is swinging his huge greatclub for 12d8 damage with Shilleleigh and Vital Strike.Just FYI, shillelagh doesn't work on greatclubs, it works on clubs and quarterstaves.
Carry on.
And the greatclub is the single worst martial weapon on the list. I simply asked for it to apply, since I also had to burn a feat to wield it. The DM approved, considering the cost and the weakness of the weapon.
As I said: "number crunch" AND "potential exploits".
I understand, it is just that this is the kind of thing that optimize-haters will jump on. The rules are being bent, see, you're a powergamer, a munchkin, a gish-lover. I agree that anyone that actually does a serious analysis will probably come to the conclusion that this is not a overpowered issue (wasting time swinging when you could be summoning or casting), but remember the opimize-haters believe math is bad m'kay and if you look at it too hard, you are "one of those people".
People who love any caste of githyanki are kinda freaky, based on those old FF illustrations.
I cannot speak for everyone, only myself. But I know there are many optimizers who do not say 'your game fails' because your character is suboptima
I got no issue with optimizers who do not lord over "subpar" players, but the ones that do not are outnumbered 6 to 1 by those that do. And while not fair that is why you get the dislike for the group as a whole. That and the large number of optimizers who have the "Your just stupid if you don't play my way or that is not an issue for you" attitude
I am not gonna name, names but some of the ones agreeing with you are the very ones who go out of their way to down people who do not do things they way they do.
Your just outnumbered in the optimizer group by powergamers and munchkins and all round a!!+%%&s. As I said not everyone is like that but most seem to be.
I cannot speak for everyone, only myself. But I know there are many optimizers who do not say 'your game fails' because your character is suboptimaI got no issue with optimizers who do not lord over "subpar" players, but the ones that do not are outnumbered 6 to 1 by those that do. And while not fair that is why you get the dislike for the group as a whole. That and the large number of optimizers who have the "Your just stupid if you don't play my way or that is not an issue for you" attitude
I am not gonna name, names but some of the ones agreeing with you are the very ones who go out of their way to down people who do not do things they way they do.
Your just outnumbered in the optimizer group by powergamers and munchkins and all round a&*%#@%s. As I said not everyone is like that but most seem to be.
Which makes it all OK?
I think as a whole it's not optimizers folks here dislike, but the attitude and other types claiming to be optimizers such areas tend to bring in. Many so called optimizers are really powergamers looking to abuse the game not make it run smoother. And there are a few posters here and even some that are no longer here that have put a bad taste in folks mouths with the whole thing. Not a few posters have came here from elsewhere already partly because of such folks. All in all once you have been burned it's harder to put up with folks that clam to be optimizers without going into warmod.
Not fair to the good ones, but it is what it is.