I was wondering, would it be possible to make the whip just a bit more desirable to have as a weapon? This is a weapon that many players in my gaming groups have wanted to use, for sheer coolness, but have not due to its limitations and the fact that you have to go out of the way in order to be able to use it.
Here's my personal suggestions.
#1.. and this is the biggie... reduce the whip's status from exotic to martial. Honestly, myself, I'd almost, to a small degree consider it as a simple but the fact that it takes some good technique to use a whip with flair should move it more into the martial range. Besides, whips are/were widely used in different parts of the world... some in different varieties... but used none the less. I don't see it so much as being that exotic.
#2.. possibly sway the armor/natural armor negation a bit.... would it be so bad to adjust the armor negation to a whip's damage to +2 armor bonus/+5 natural armor bonus? Thoughts on this anyone?
#3... this one is just a twisted addition... allow clerics to have it. Just ponder on the more harsh of orders...
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I going to go out on a limb and agree.
Considering how limited its usefulness is, making the whip an Exotic weapon was a decision that ensured that only bards and the most dedicated whip-fans would use it. Bringing it down to Martial, at least, or possibly Simple opens the doors to it actually being used by more players.
Also, the whip's ineffectiveness against armored opponents puts a further damper on the weapon's viability. This particular rule seems like a bit of a kludge that is only implemented on this weapon and not on any other weapon that would also be hampered by armor to one degree or another (which would be most weapons). Instead, perhaps it would be better to do away with it entirely and just have the whip cause non-lethal damage.
As for the whip on the cleric's weapon list... I don't really care one way or the other, so whichever way the wind blows.
I was wondering, would it be possible to make the whip just a bit more desirable to have as a weapon? This is a weapon that many players in my gaming groups have wanted to use, for sheer coolness, but have not due to its limitations and the fact that you have to go out of the way in order to be able to use it.
Here's my personal suggestions.
#1.. and this is the biggie... reduce the whip's status from exotic to martial. Honestly, myself, I'd almost, to a small degree consider it as a simple but the fact that it takes some good technique to use a whip with flair should move it more into the martial range. Besides, whips are/were widely used in different parts of the world... some in different varieties... but used none the less. I don't see it so much as being that exotic.#2.. possibly sway the armor/natural armor negation a bit.... would it be so bad to adjust the armor negation to a whip's damage to +2 armor bonus/+5 natural armor bonus? Thoughts on this anyone?
#3... this one is just a twisted addition... allow clerics to have it. Just ponder on the more harsh of orders...
I would rather have it stay exotic but allow it to do normal damage. A whip really isn't that powerful even if it's treated as a normal weapon due to the fact that it draws AoO's when using it to attack.
I wouldn't mind it becoming a martial or even a simple weapon. But I like the idea of the whip being a tool as well as a weapon. Either that or I watch swashbuckler movies a little over much.
#1.. and this is the biggie... reduce the whip's status from exotic to martial. Honestly, myself, I'd almost, to a small degree consider it as a simple but the fact that it takes some good technique to use a whip with flair should move it more into the martial range.
Maybe I am looking at it wrong... But I take the Martial category to be weapons the require some training, but that have similar training styles.
The reason that Whip is exotic is that it has a completely different "style" to it. A Fighter has nothing in his/her standard bag of tricks to relate to whip usage.
It takes specific training to use a Whip effectively, even for a professional soldier.
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Maybe I am looking at it wrong... But I take the Martial category to be weapons the require some training, but that have similar training styles.
The reason that Whip is exotic is that it has a completely different "style" to it. A Fighter has nothing in his/her standard bag of tricks to relate to whip usage.
It takes specific training to use a Whip effectively, even for a professional soldier.
The problem with this, though, is that it penalizes, mechanically-speaking, players from taking characterful or interesting weapon choices.
If a weapon requires a mechanical investment (as do Exotic weapons), the weapon should be mechanically superior to weapons that do not require a similar investment. Thus, Martial weapons should be mechanically superior to Simple weapons, and Exotic weapons should be mechanically superior to Martial weapons.
What our views may be on the difficulty of using a weapon (eg, whip), or lack of cultural familiarity (eg, sai, nunchaku, siangham, kama) should NOT factor into it.
If a weapon requires a mechanical investment (as do Exotic weapons), the weapon should be mechanically superior to weapons that do not require a similar investment. Thus, Martial weapons should be mechanically superior to Simple weapons, and Exotic weapons should be mechanically superior to Martial weapons.
Maybe. But with the potential exception of the Spiked Chain, that doesn't hold true for any of the Exotic Weapons.
What our views may be on the difficulty of using a weapon (eg, whip), or lack of cultural familiarity (eg, sai, nunchaku, siangham, kama) should NOT factor into it.
Again, maybe. But that doesn't seem to be the design reason behind Exotic Weapons. In fact, it appears that difficulty of use and cultural familiarity are exactly what determines Exotic status.
I am going to focus on bullwhips here. In skilled hands, they can cut like a knife. However, it takes time to ready. The best way to simulate this is treating the weapon as "non-threatening" reach weapon (you never threaten with the weapon).
Another problem is the room needed. Someone using a 6-foot bullwhip would need all of their adjacent spaces to the back and sides clear to be able to exicute a whip shot at a target in front of them. This make whips useful only in surprise situations (for disarming and such).
For game play, I would rule for real damage, with heavy armor negating damage from a whip. I would also require at least the consecutive adjacent squares be free in order to make a strike. We could drop the "non-threatening" aspect, but still treated it as a reach weapon.
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If a weapon requires a mechanical investment (as do Exotic weapons), the weapon should be mechanically superior to weapons that do not require a similar investment. Thus, Martial weapons should be mechanically superior to Simple weapons, and Exotic weapons should be mechanically superior to Martial weapons.Maybe. But with the potential exception of the Spiked Chain, that doesn't hold true for any of the Exotic Weapons.
The bastard sword and dwarven waraxe are both mechanically better than Martial one-handed weapons. Also, all of the Exotic two-handed weapons seem to mechanically where they should be.
What our views may be on the difficulty of using a weapon (eg, whip), or lack of cultural familiarity (eg, sai, nunchaku, siangham, kama) should NOT factor into it.Again, maybe. But that doesn't seem to be the design reason behind Exotic Weapons. In fact, it appears that difficulty of use and cultural familiarity are exactly what determines Exotic status.
I agree that that's how it may appear and even may have been the initial idea. However, I feel that it's bad game design. Not only does it penalize players from choosing interesting weapons, it limits a mono-cultural play style upon players that requires DMs to shuffle around the Simple, Martial and Exotic labels in an ad hoc manner depending on what culture a character comes from (which is pointless and frustrating).
The bastard sword and dwarven waraxe are both mechanically better than Martial one-handed weapons. Also, all of the Exotic two-handed weapons seem to mechanically where they should be.
The Bastard Sword is better used as a two-handed weapon, which you don't need an Exotic Weapon feat. And the Dwarven Waraxe isn't superior enough to justify a whole separate feat for me. Others may disagree, but unless you are a Dwarf, you shouldn't be using it.
I agree that that's how it may appear and even may have been the initial idea. However, I feel that it's bad game design. Not only does it penalize players from choosing interesting weapons, it limits a mono-cultural play style upon players that requires DMs to shuffle around the Simple, Martial and Exotic labels in an ad hoc manner depending on what culture a character comes from (which is pointless and frustrating).
I don't disagree with any of that. But that doesn't really change what Exotic tends to stand for now. :-/
I agree that whips really do seem like exotic weapons. That said they need some love. Real whips can cut people open. I'd argue they do a d8 of lethal damage, but can't be used in spaces adjacent to the user. I'd also argue they give the ability to grapple and disarm. I don't know offhand the rules for the asian sleeve-entangler or mancatcher, but it should be able to do both.
I think the best way to go would be to have it be exotic, but useful enough to be worth it. That's the change I'd favor.
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I agree that that's how it may appear and even may have been the initial idea. However, I feel that it's bad game design. Not only does it penalize players from choosing interesting weapons, it limits a mono-cultural play style upon players that requires DMs to shuffle around the Simple, Martial and Exotic labels in an ad hoc manner depending on what culture a character comes from (which is pointless and frustrating).I don't disagree with any of that. But that doesn't really change what Exotic tends to stand for now. :-/
Then let this be my clarion call for a much needed change. ;)
The use of whips is too damn annoying in play, especially if it was every session. Also, the whip is a ranged weapon and does not threaten...
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If a weapon requires a mechanical investment (as do Exotic weapons), the weapon should be mechanically superior to weapons that do not require a similar investment. Thus, Martial weapons should be mechanically superior to Simple weapons, and Exotic weapons should be mechanically superior to Martial weapons.Maybe. But with the potential exception of the Spiked Chain, that doesn't hold true for any of the Exotic Weapons.
True that. Very few of the Exotic Weapons are even close to worth a Feat, and one of the best 'chain-tripper' builds I've seen used a Halberd and Armor Spikes instead of a Spiked Chain, so even the infamous Spiked Chain is, IMO, a bit overpriced.