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Over the course of almost 30 years of gaming, I've watched good game masters allow players the grace to "pull somethings out of their arse" to save their character, or another character, from death. I mean, really.... if a GM can't give me 1 second to look at my character sheet just in case I have a pan-dimensional crystal shard in my back pocket, then I would call her a jerk.
So over the decades, I've typically not pronounced/"declared" a character dead until the end of the round. I've done this because the parcing of a six second round by 4-30 different intiative counts meant, for me, it seemed believable that other characters could quickly save another character from death. These heroic altruistic moments were highlights rather than sad times.... but I seek to better understand how everyone else runs their Pathfinder RPG games. Please consider the following... and discuss/debate, or add examples of your own:
Example A: (6 players/counts)
Farlac the mage attacks on count 24
Yougin the rogue sets off a trap on count 22
Eldwin the monk kicks a kobold in the nuts on count 18
Silverus the cleric casts cure light wounds on Yougin on count 14
The ogres attack Yougin the rogue on count 12, causing a fatal hit
Alderc the paladin lays hands on Yougin on count 8
The goblin archers have arrived and happen to target Yougin on count 5
(who is having a very bad day by the way....)
Molassicus the Indecisive Bard has delayed until count 3 whereupon he uses a wand to cure Yougin back to health.
Now, I know I would be embarrassed to find out I've done it "wrong" by the rules for all this time, yet, I'd rather get it right before my next 25 years of gaming... lol
>My point: Yougin gets killed... er, no he is healed by Silverus..er, no he is slayn by ogres...er, no he is healed by Alderc...er, not he is pelted to death with arrows....er, no he is luckily healed by Yougin at the bottom of the round.
So..................................?
I've generally considered the counts/rounds to just be the convention/ vehicle designed to keep everything from happening at once; a mechanical invention that allows a "game" to be played with some order and ease. But in actuality, we're really talking about stuff that happens at-the-same-time, so I don't declare death until the end of the round.
Example B: What if Thebius the Ever-Watchful choses to use a Ready action, "If Willowiggle the Injury-Magnet gets attacked, I cast heal."
Pronouncing death at the end of the round seems to keep the sprit of the game. I wonder if a player character reaches -CON we should say, "You're dead," on the spot? What about the others in the round who haven't acted yet?
Is initiative count an abstraction that facilitates game play?
Example C: If a group of 6 selects to run (move x4) in a round, the GM doesn't stagger their squares in a line based on count, so why shouldn't others in a round (ostensibly free to move to equal positions normally, somehow prohitited from enacting a "Heal the dying before the end of the round" move on their count? I would like your hlep reconciling these events; why does intitiative count seem to NOT matter for non-life threatening events, but suddenly matter during the split seconds before a character's death?
One final scenario for consideration:
Example D: (Classic 20 foot pit trap)
Trigger: Rogue misses disable device check and the trap is triggered.
Area of effect: 1 other Player Characters is standing in the 20 foot area, two others very close.
Question: Do you, following the logic of the above, "dead instantly rule", have all the characters save at once else fall to their death? Do you not allow anyone to make a dex or CMB or Attack roll to grab the falling character or grasp the edge to save themselves? I guess, I am now feeling awkward about the discussion above, as it seems deviate from normal sensibility about "what happens in a round." I just don't like the logic this takes me to....
DM: Igglespot, you trigger the trap and Vorthsemith disappears from view, falling into a vast pit.
Players: Hey, can I grab him?
DM: No, the effect fully occurs on his count.
Players: Well, can I try to grab him on my turn?
DM: No, sorry, Dex, CMB, Attack Rolls would be way too powerful if I let you use them to affect Vorthsemith's fall.
If the players can generally attempt to grab Igglespot so why shouln't the nearby cleric be able to cast a heal spell on poor Vorthsemith?
I wonder why I am having such a tough time with this instant death thing? Isn't it intuitive for a game master to allow the party a chance to save folks when they're dying per RAW?
Admittedly confused,
-Pax
good stuff
I think it depends on the intended difficulty of the campaign, the players, and the GM. Even in a difficult campaign I allow creative ideas to go over the rules sometimes, but not with your leniency. I do think its a neat idea however, because sometimes what is cool and/or fun should override the rules.
I am running AoW right now so if they die, then they are dead, but I plan on doing something easier next time, so I will probably be a lot more lax with allowing players to succeed.I don't think you like seeing players die, because you want them to succeed. I am the same way, and I do feel bad when they die, but I think the fact that I will allow them to die, gives them a higher sense of achievement when they do succeed. They know I did not give them the victory. Yeah I know some players just want to walk away from the table alive and that is not a bad thing at all.
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We have always run it as the character dies at his round next turn. So in the case above, if Molassicus was not available to cast that heal, Yougin would die on initiative 22 next round. This may be a house rule, but it gives the party a chance to try to drop what they are doing and get over there to heal.
Now, having said that, Pathfinder adds this spell:
Which states:
Unlike other spells that heal damage, breath of life can bring recently slain creatures back to life. If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round, apply the healing from this spell to the creature. If the healed creature's hit point total is at a negative amount less than its Constitution score, it comes back to life and stabilizes at its new hit point total.
I have a tenancy to read that as the intention was for the character to die that on the imitative that the damage was done.
edited to correct stupid typo.. life/live what's the difference.. ;)
We have always run it as the character dies at his round next turn. So in the case above, if Molassicus was not available to cast that heal, Yougin would die on initiative 22 next round. This may be a house rule, but it gives the party a chance to try to drop what they are doing and get over there to heal.
Now, having said that, Pathfinder adds this spell:
Which states:
Unlike other spells that heal damage, breath of life can bring recently slain creatures back to life. If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round, apply the healing from this spell to the creature. If the healed creature's hit point total is at a negative amount less than its Constitution score, it comes back to life and stabilizes at its new hit point total.I have a tenancy to read that as the intention was for the character to die that on the imitative that the damage was done.
There is a similar spell in the spell compendium. I can't remember the name of it though. It also brings you back without any levels being lost.
I don't have any hard and fast rules. Generally, I have the PC 'dying' until the end of the round. If the dying PC is at the bottom of the combat order, I usually extend that deadline (pun intended) until the end of the next round - to give each of the other PCs a chance to do something before death happens.
I generally give the PCs until the end of the round to try and save a comrade. So far we're 2 for 3 being saved. The poor monk was just too far gone to save. :/
Hyrum.
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I usually announce it just as the die stops spinning.
One time this Rogue named Black Leaf died from a trap. I did not allow the players in my game to even acknowledge the existence of Marcy, the girl who played Black Leaf.
Unfortunately Marcy couldn't take it any more and hanged herself before she even got a chance to read some Christian literature.
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In my game, as soon as a character's hit points reach -CON, he's dead. He's bleedin' demised. He's passed on. This character is no more. He has ceased to be. He's a stiff. He's snuffed it. Bereft of life, he rests in peace. He's indubitably extinct. This... is an ex-character.
I've found that my experience as a player has taught me that if there is no danger of dying, then most of the fun goes out the window. I had a DM that let characters do things out of their ability (not to mention just plain impossible) to save other characters from death. He gave people extra saving throws, let other characters act out of turn to take hits, and just plain fudged the dice to prevent any death. It broke my suspension of disbelief faster than anything to date to know that no matter how stupid an idea is, it will never result in anything negative. It took out the excitement, and I think that (for me, at least) the one round grace period would suck the excitement out as well, especially if every person in the party had some way to heal others.
That last hit to take someone to -CON has always been something traumatic in our games, like a blade through the heart, neck, or head, something that conventional healing can't fix
I usually announce it just as the die stops spinning.
One time this Rogue named Black Leaf died from a trap. I did not allow the players in my game to even acknowledge the existence of Marcy, the girl who played Black Leaf.
Unfortunately Marcy couldn't take it any more and hanged herself before she even got a chance to read some Christian literature.
What a crazy Chick.
Zo
Edit:
In my game, as soon as a character's hit points reach -CON, he's dead. He's bleedin' demised. He's passed on. This character is no more. He has ceased to be. He's a stiff. He's snuffed it. Bereft of life, he rests in peace. He's indubitably extinct. This... is an ex-character.
Nah, 'e's just stunned.
In our previous session the Cleric in the group died. The monster had picked him up with its mouth and flinged him across the room, into a wall. The player wanted to save his character by quickly drinking a potion as he flew across the room. I gave him that in the form of a ref save (the characters worst one btw) as well as another one to brace for the impact. He failed both saves and was smeared across the wall, to quote one of the other players.
I've always seen it that you die the instant your negative hp is lower than your con. The time between falling unconscious and dying are supposed to be the window of time where other characters can rush in and save the dying character. So I see no reason to add another rule on top of that. (But I do feel that the rule for dying could be altered so that higher leveled characters take a little more time to die than lower leveled ones)
One of my groups went over this too (several rules lawyers included). We found that because of the way initiative works, it is reasonable to give "anyone" one round from the initiative point they take lethal damage (=> -Con score) before they are declared legally dead.
Ex: On initiative count 10, Brock the Brash Barbarian (lv 3, CON 16 and perfect 12's each level, HP 48) rushes forward screaming and frothing at the mouth to "slay" the large black dragon sitting on the peat in a bog (120' away, 2rnds to reach). Why does he charge a large dragon, at lvl 3? Because he's brash.
Mr. Blacky (init 9) is not happy with more froth in his bog, but he does enjoy slag, so he opens his maw and spews out a torrent of acid (12d6=66 - nice roll) directly upon Brock, effectively coating him (failed save). The acid wash begins to dissolve Mr. Brash and thus begins the barbarian's trek into "slag-dom" (36+9+3=48+16=64-66=-2, effectively -18 CON[3 past "dead"].
So, from the initiative count that Mr. Blacky breathed on (init 9) until the end of that count next round (9 again), the party can try to save Mr. Brash by getting him at least 3 points of healing (-63 overall). At the initiative count 1 after that (init 8), if the barbarian is not brought up to at least -63 points of damage, he is proclaimed dead.
Because of they way the game works with Initiative and rounds, to not allow 1 round from the point of sustaining lethal "action" to a body, you work against the system as designed (whether intentional design or not).
- V
P.S. - If you don't do it this way, you have the BBEG (or PCs) who do A LOT of damage, holding their initiative until the end of the round so that the Wretched Wrecking Wad Whack of Woe (TM) they deliver, allows for no chance of saving that enemy/PC. (I've seen PCs try to use this tactic in another game. What's good for the PCs, is good for the NPCs...)
edited: for clarity
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I've played in all the ways listed above, and my preferred method is that the dying PC expires at the end of the round or his next scheduled activation whichever occurs second. This allows others to possibly save the PC from death's door. I like this version because the point of gaming, for most, is to have fun playing a fantasy game and enjoy the development of a character you have spent a lot of time creating. Nothing is a greater buzz-kill than PC death. I'm not saying that PC's should be immortal, but they shouldn't be "glass joe" either. Most of us want to bring to life the fantastic, heroic images from great fiction writing. What better way to stoke that feeling is to pull your arse outta the fire and back into the frying pan.
A related question is do you allow PC's to determine, visually, and without being charged an action, how wounded you are? 4E has the bloodied mechanic that I think is a good simulation, but what about the BSF in the front who only has 3 HP's left after the creature's last round of attacks. If the party healer cannot determine his relative health with but a glance, the BSF will go straight from alive to negative dead. Without some simulated delay in the death effect, and/or some "he's punished within an inch of his life" announcement from the GM, there is no time to save him.
I think in the end what "you" play the game for should determine the final ruling. I hate seeing a character die, but I hate "allowing" him to live even more. I also give my NPC's the same rules as my PC's, and having the bad guy stay one his feet because another NPC did something heroic would annoy my players.
A related question is do you allow PC's to determine, visually, and without being charged an action, how wounded you are? 4E has the bloodied mechanic that I think is a good simulation, but what about the BSF in the front who only has 3 HP's left after the creature's last round of attacks. If the party healer cannot determine his relative health with but a glance, the BSF will go straight from alive to negative dead. Without some simulated delay in the death effect, and/or some "he's punished within an inch of his life" announcement from the GM, there is no time to save him.
And this is why in many video games both the characters and the enemies slump or move more slowly or show some other visible signs when they are close to death. So why not a house rule where a pc or enemy acts hurt when there is less than 20% hp left, unless they have something that lets them ignore low health. Then if someone's pc dies because they were not being descriptive of the character's condition, they will have no one else to blame.
There is a similar spell in the spell compendium. I can't remember the name of it though. It also brings you back without any levels being lost.
Pretty sure it's called Revivify.
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I certainly don’t think there’s anything wrong with allowing a bit of leeway in saving characters from death, but I play that the moment a character’s hit points reach –Con they are dead. Unless someone can do something to prevent the death with an immediate action, or can use some ability that (by the rules) allows them to bring someone back from death within 1 round, the character is dead at the time of the damage or the effect. To me, death should be something that the characters fear (or not, depending on the character), and giving too many second chances can cheapen that.
There is a similar spell in the spell compendium. I can't remember the name of it though. It also brings you back without any levels being lost.Pretty sure it's called Revivify.
That's what it's called, sir. My party of epics use it continually to avoid the BBEG from TPKing people.
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These are good posts. thanks.
And, what do you think Jason Bulmahn, Erik, or James does when running their Pathfinder game? I'm noticing that Pathfinder RPG does not specificy in RAW that the character dies at the end of the round, nor within a full round action time period.
I am admittedly of the old school that allows for heroics at the time of PC death, but also identify with not wanting to do any hoaky saving of dying PCs.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I usually announce it just as the die stops spinning.
One time this Rogue named Black Leaf died from a trap. I did not allow the players in my game to even acknowledge the existence of Marcy, the girl who played Black Leaf.
Unfortunately Marcy couldn't take it any more and hanged herself before she even got a chance to read some Christian literature.
I'm pretty sure that player death upon character death is RAW. Anyone who plays it otherwise is using some form of house rules.
Personally, I don't call death until after I have an NPC examine the corpse and announce "he's dead, Jim." I find that heightens the drama.
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The RAW is pretty clear concerning death
Dead
When your character's current hit points drop to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score or lower, or if he succumbs to massive damage, he's dead. A character can also die from taking ability damage or suffering an ability drain that reduces his Constitution score to 0 (see Special Abilities).
Certain types of powerful magic, such as raise dead and resurrection, can restore life to a dead character. See Magic for more information.
Instant deadification.
The RAW is pretty clear concerning deathInstant deadification.Dead
When your character's current hit points drop to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score or lower, or if he succumbs to massive damage, he's dead. A character can also die from taking ability damage or suffering an ability drain that reduces his Constitution score to 0 (see Special Abilities).
Certain types of powerful magic, such as raise dead and resurrection, can restore life to a dead character. See Magic for more information.
That is how we play. You die the instant you hit -Con. It makes for more nail biting decisions. Knowing that the rest of the party has a full round to save you if you do fall doing something heroic makes the whole thing less heroic IMO.
Does the barbarian with 5 HP left stay true to character and stay in to face certain death from a full round attack by a nasty monster, or do they crawl away and lick their wounds? It also makes those moments where they stay in and kill the monster before it can squish them that much more rewarding.
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Yes. We probably all agree about the drama. And yes, we probably all agree about the definition of dead, and how wimpy GM's who overtly bend rules to save dying characters tend to ruin the suspension of disbelief for players who will then resent the GM for saving their character...
What I'm after is... the intention and actual playstyle that either influenced the rule, or the intention and playstyle that needs this rule to be flexible enough to allow for ToD calls to be made at end of round.
In other words.... adventures without allowing others to epicly save another fellow PC seem.... 1) to encourage an "every man for himself attitude and 2) a less risky playstyle without what seems to be classic D&D allowance to "grab Felonious quickly by the collar, thus saving him from falling to his death in the abyssal maw."
That is - - - If felonious happens to fail (roll a 1) on the dexterity check when crossing the crumbled dwarven bridge in Whiteplume Mountain or whatever, do we say, aw - "Felonious falls to his death along with some crumbled stones, screaming with outstretched hands until his panic quiets into oblivion." I mean for a 1-off game this might be okay, or during a module competition (if such still exist), but otherwise-- WTF?
A dex check = death? (Sure. Maybe if its the final battle and you're dodging the effect of the uber-artefact, or you're jumping away from the electic power of an exploding Rod of Many Parts...) Otherwise... I find it difficult to believe this is the intention/spirit of the game rules, given the hours of devotion to character builds and well-developed characters over the course of years...
Does anyone know how those death rules are actually executed at Cook's/Mona's/Jacob's table - - -or the table of someone adjudicating a Pathfinder society event? Are you allowing others to reach out a hand of help? I really want to know how this is applied in the context of your game? I'm truly interested in hearing how folks play. We all realize GM's are the final arbiters, and let's not make any value judgment about the GM's actual decisions.... but my guess is that their actual playstyle is in-step with the classic game in terms of at least allowing some benefit of the doubt... and if possible allowing nearby players to attempt a rescue on their count if counts remain in the round. Has anyone played in James' games, or does the Pathfinder Society guidebook provide any details on handling character deaths?
Yes. We probably all agree about the drama. And yes, we probably all agree about the definition of dead, and how wimpy GM's who overtly bend rules to save dying characters tend to ruin the suspension of disbelief for players who will then resent the GM for saving their character...
I personally enjoy knowing my character can die, I put a good amount of time into creating a character and getting the rules to match the concept. Sometimes it happens when you aren't expecting it, sometimes you do something stupid/intentionally that kills you. I have yet to intentionally kill off a character even if I'm not enjoying the game. I have had characters die "saving" the party, I usually have something "up my sleeve" and there is a chance (however small) if it pans out the character won't die. Sometimes it doesn't, it was a gamble and enjoyable however it turns out.
Honestly, it isn't uncommon for our characters to have locks of hair or some such for raise/resurects either. Losing a level sucks but it isn't like the game doesn't allow you to bring a character back anyways, so it hasn't ever been a big deal for us.
What I'm after is... the intention and actual playstyle that either influenced the rule, or the intention and playstyle that needs this rule to be flexible enough to allow for ToD calls to be made at end of round.
I think this is something you are getting hung up on, the rules allow for "dying" and you want "dead" to equal "dying". But the rules make a distinction. If a character is in the negatives but not at -CON, they are dying, slowly bleeding out. There is a period of time where the rest of the party can attempt to do something "epic" like bandage(healing check), or administer a potion or spell or anything that might save the character dying. Any sort of healing no matter how insubstantial remedies the condition. The "dying" period is when that is an option.
Dead is when you have -CON or less hit points. Damage is typically instantaneous, you get hit, damage is applied, if that damage takes you to -CON or less, death occurs per the rules (and that would be what happens in organized play as they use RAW). Even damage over time effects occur at the beginning of the round typically, unless something is done before that round starts death would occur as the damage is applied before they get a chance to act. There might be some special effects that state they kick in at the end of the round (and so others could try to conteract them) but that isn't the norm.
In other words.... adventures without allowing others to epicly save another fellow PC seem.... 1) to encourage an "every man for himself attitude and 2) a less risky playstyle without what seems to be classic D&D allowance to "grab Felonious quickly by the collar, thus saving him from falling to his death in the abyssal maw."
"Epically save".... Has a lot more to do with planning, preparation, paying attention and intelligent use of action resources. If you want to "epically save" someone else, by the rules it could occur with an swift/immediate type action (depending on if it is saving yourself or someone else). Character X takes damage reducing them just below -CON in damage, Character Y takes some swift action that reduces or heals some damage so Character X is no longer at or below deaths door (-CON), incidentally a healing action would keep Character X from bleeding out as well.
The game rules do encourage an "every man for themselves attitude" BUT it is a group game. If your party doesn't want to work together "epically saving" each other isn't much of a proble now is it? If we are going to work together, when someone is getting hurt (we try real hard not to use HP's in conversation) and looks "really bad" whoever can heal (in our party(s)) are typically getting out the wands or potions and we will be attempting to keep them up. Falling down "dying" means you will be taking more attacks when you are trying to stand up, making the situation worse. I guess in our games when a character is "dead" it is a given, if it happens the rest of the party knows it even though we don't necessarily get graphic about the attack. Basically it is bad enough that anyone who looks knows it and we leave it at that.
Could we finish the fight earlier by just going about our buisness without regard to the really hurt member?? Yeah we could, but we might lose a character in the process, so we let the fight drag on a bit longer and do what we can to help each other stay alive. Now if the creature is one shotting people, we end the fight ASAP - it best for all involved, but that is a different scenario than the group battles you are typically doing in a module.
If Felonious wasn't taking some safe guards (feather fall, rope and pitons, whatever) and the rolls goes against him, it is his own fault. Failure to prepare on soley his shoulders OR the partys should still have consequences. I've yet to see some safeguard or rule that allows for instant death on the roll. Climbing? You get a second check to catch yourself not to mention a rope around your waist and the rest of the party hold you in case you make a bad step. Falling? Feather Fall is a low level spell or see above for team work in the party and mundane solution.
That is - - - If felonious happens to fail (roll a 1) on the dexterity check when crossing the crumbled dwarven bridge in Whiteplume Mountain or whatever, do we say, aw - "Felonious falls to his death along with some crumbled stones, screaming with outstretched hands until his panic quiets into oblivion." I mean for a 1-off game this might be okay, or during a module competition (if such still exist), but otherwise-- WTF?
No we say "Felonius was a dumb @$$ who didn't prepare and probably deserved his fate, how did he manage all those years to not die before this, WTF?"
A dex check = death? (Sure. Maybe if its the final battle and you're dodging the effect of the uber-artefact, or you're jumping away from the electic power of an exploding Rod of Many Parts...) Otherwise... I find it difficult to believe this is the intention/spirit of the game rules, given the hours of devotion to character builds and well-developed characters over the course of years...
Where are you finding "dex check = dead" really? Again if the people playing are not preparing in any way even though they know they are going to be encountering a dangerous situation, they deserve to fail, if it happens. The "intention" of the game isn't to steam roll over everything without thought. There should be some drama, some thought, some risk. If you are an adventurer, you are basically saying "kill me if you can". You are taking the risk for the possible reward. Death is basically an every day possibility. Rolling bad might be the catalyst, but stupidity on the player(s) part is usually the main reason. Yep you rolled a 1 and fell down dead, shame you didn't get a potion of feather fall, spider climb, flying, or take that one feat that or ability that allows you to reroll a save, or any of the number of other option that were available. Granted sometimes things just don't work out, it is a shame, maybe you ran out of charges or whatever.
Oh well, time to work on that other character concept I was thinking about.... Where did that book go anyways guys/gals? *gets up from the table to go look for the book and another character sheet*
Does anyone know how those death rules are actually executed at Cook's/Mona's/Jacob's table - - -or the table of someone adjudicating a Pathfinder society event? Are you allowing others to reach out a hand of help? I really want to know how this is applied in the context of your game? I'm truly interested in hearing how folks play. We all realize GM's are the final arbiters, and let's not make any value judgment about the GM's actual decisions.... but my guess is that their actual playstyle is in-step with the classic game in terms of at least allowing some benefit of the doubt... and if possible allowing nearby players to attempt a rescue on their count if counts remain in the round. Has anyone played in James' games, or does the Pathfinder Society guidebook provide any details on handling character deaths?
If they are dying, of course allow them to help. If they got hit with something that made them go dead your only real choices are the immediate actions/swift actions (and there are a few out there in the books). Just as likely a reason for dying in the situation given, is not taking the situation "seriously", not the failure of the rules to give the characters a way to "epically save" someone. Actually it is probably the more likely reason honestly. Regardless of what they are playing with at their table, if it is anything other than what was printed in the book, dying/dead, it is a house rule. You really need to have some sort of justification for making it a house rule in your game? Or are you trying to get ammo to feed your argument it should be this way in a game you are playing? As I mentioned before I believe RAW is what rules the society play with the various limitations and rules tweaks, nothing on the dead or dying topic you are hoping for. Those rules are pretty clear cut.
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Sounds like the following are true of RAW:
Scenario 1
> Ulgar is wracked with pain as the creature he is fighting explodes in a death-throw of blades resulting in 74 points of damage. This occurs as an immediate action on Ulgar's count (same round it is slain). The retributive strike takes Ulgar to -26 and Ulgar falls immediately dead.
>>Caveats: no one near has a swift or immediate action with with to save Ulgar.
Scenario 2:
> Brinnor has been taking bleed damage in the amount of 1d4 hp each round from a gnaw demon of some kind. At the bottom of round 6, Brinnor is at -14hp, and this is also his negative Con score. Brinnor was last to act in this round. Immediately following Brinnor's count (since he was last), the next round beings. At the top of round 7, the GM rolls 1d4, resulting in a 2. Brinnor takes 2 points of damage and dies NOT on an actual count, nor the count of the creature causing the damage, but instead... at the TOP of the round abstraction. This means there is no actual point in time, nor count when Brinnor dies, according to RAW, but rather, he did not survive the end of the first round?
>>>>Let's say that Thevvis, a character of multiple classes, had delayed his action previously. Gameplay would follow this sequence: 1) DM assigns 2 hp damage to Brinnor, and Brinnor takes the "dead" status. 2) Thevvis says, "hold the phone! I didn't act! I want to help him!" Makes a move action to reach Brinnor, pulling a magic item from his Handy Haversack on the move, and using a standard action to heal Brinnor. Alteratively, any swift action would also work, provided Brinnor is at least under his own negative Con score. 3) The GM says, "well, Brinnor - lucky you! You're alive!" 4) Then Round 2 would actually begin... and the GM must re-roll or keep the 1d4 hp damage (assigned at the TOP of the round as the previous poster indicated). The GM, now says, alas, Brinnor you're still dead, because Thevvis chose to act at the "end of last round", and you take hp bleed damage at the "undefined" TOP of the round, not on an actual count but abstractly at the TOP. 5) Thevvis says, "Wait! No! I want to act when it seems I can actually save him, so my delay action doesn't go off till the beginning of the round 7, not the end of round 6. 6) The GM says, "Ah. Okay. I see. Well, Brinnor, you lucky bastard, you're alive! well. er... no, you're not..." The GM realizes that RAW says -Con = death condition, therefore Thevvis' healing would not have an effect on Brinnor who, was given the continued bleed damage at the abstract "TOP" of round 7, making it impossible for any other player to actually have an initiatve count higher than "TOP", meaning Brinnor "dead" status cannot be healed with a cure spell, because he is dead and would now need Raise Dead or Ressurrection.
All of this assumes no Revivication, or swift actions are in play.
All of this indicates the core of my question about "Declaring Time of Death"? If it is not "declared" on a count - - - - then when is is actually declared? Previous posts make an argument with certainty that additional damage happens at the "top" of the round, and other injuries are actually sustained on "counts" and happen when they happen, resulting in instant death at -Con, rather than allowing for the abstratction of the combat round, making it seem completely linear.
So.... no, I am not building up a case to justify anything to my players, and, no, I am not trying to gain support for a house rule, and no, I have no mal-intention of asking this seemingly innocent question....
"When do you declare time of death in Pathfinder RPG?" The history of this game over the past 30+ years seemed to always allow for the GM to explain how the combat round occurs much at the same time... iteratively. Has third edition (3.0,3.5) so changed the way the community plays as to interpret and accept all other abstractions such as running as a group, riding horses, leaping from building to building... but conversely holds that in the combat round, EVERYTHING happens on the count, except for on-going damage that occurs at the double-abstraction of the "TOP" of the round-count abstraction?
In all seriousness, I'm still interested in hearing more. I'm open to listening, and if I have missed something earlier... please help me to understand it. Very much appreciated,
-Pax
Been playing since 1979 as well and have always played it as dead at the very moment when the damage exceeds HP.
So if the party cleric goes at Initiative 12 and you take 250 damage at Initiative 13 that puts you at -249 HP, then you died at 13 and your cleric cannot do squat about it (exept with certain spells).
The same logic as when you attack that goblin on Initiative 15 and it is about to kill your friend on Initiative 14 and you do enough damage that you kill the goblin, does the goblin die on 15 or does he not die till the end of the round and therefore gets to swing on your pal at 14?
3.5 and Pathfinder have added some nice spells to help put in a 'safety net' for death as previously pointed out in this thread. As also stated, if your characters have that many second chances on a regular basis then I would guess the fear of battle and death is vastly reduced, as is the excitement of combat.
I firmly beleieve that initiative shows who goes before whom in a melee round and that those actions impact the actions following them in that round. It is not just for ease of organization. So death occurs the very moment damage taken exceeds your negative constitution value or an effect happens that 'causes death' such as a save or die spell for example.
As for Scenario 1, I would agree with the exeption that the 'death throes explosion' is not an immediate action. It is a non action. It simply happens. I am being nit picky yes, but I personally think it is important since that result happens after death, when the creature no longer has ANY actions, and also happens no matter how many or what type of actions the creature had or had not used previously.
Scenario 2 I believe is solved, because ongoing damage happens on the initiative of the creature that caused the damage if my memory serves me. So if an enemy wizard hits you with Acid Arrow on 15 then the next round on 15 the acid arrow does more damage, independt of what the wizard is now doing but on his 'impulse'.
If you absolutely have to solve the timing issue or have environmental effects that cause damage at the 'top of the round' simply assign them an initiative value one higher than anyone else in the combat to determine when they happen. Get rid of the 'between rounds' concept. It only creates head aches.
He's dead the second he gets to negative hit points equal to his Con. I always like to think of my roleplaying game sessions as the "real-life version" of the fantasy books. No story book endings here, if the Orc, Gblon, Mage etc waylays you, that's just the way the cookie crumbles. I"ve seen a lot of deaths over the years- some memorable others less so, but it's still a sight to behold. nothing shakes the game up like Death...Nothing
I usually follow the rules of the game. I may fudge on rare occasions if the players have done everything right and just had lousy rolls, but that's about it. I guess I'm in the camp that says death is a consequence and if the players know they can die, then they tend to play smarter.
Now, having said that, I do have a 'trump' to that. Anytime I have a player who has never played in a game I am running in the current system (IE: D&D vs Hero vs GURPS vs WhiteWolf etc) then they have a 'Hand of God'. This is a freebie that they can use anytime they want to save their character. No matter what caused the character's death (bad roll, their own stupidity, really really good RP, my screwup, whatever), they invoke 'HAND OF GOD!' in a loud voice while pointing to the ceiling.
At that point, the Hand Of God saves their character. Usually it's an obvious miracle too. Had a champion's character live because just before the villain could blast them to death part of the building collapsed and crushed the villain. A D&D character had a demon appear and shred the ranger that was about to sishkebob him with dual rapiers. The demon then looked at him and said 'I'll take my usual payment at the usual location' and disappear. Caused said player to be nervous around demons from then on (more than normal that is). ;)
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I have also played every version of the game for 30 years, and agree with the idea that death occurs at the moment that the already defined condition described as "death" occurs. It is a mistake to move things to "top of the round", or "end of the round", because there actually is no such thing. It is a matter of convenience, as you have to start somewhere, but after the beginning, it is a continuous flow of events.
I will say that since I both need characters to fear death (except for the crazy ones), I also need players to fear character death, so they don't get any obvious breaks. I will also say that my style of gaming is all about the story, so I dread character death, but let it happen when it does. I also say I have made tiny exceptions, with an action that happened on the very next initiative count, after a character would have reached death, keeping in mind that each count is roughly one-fifth of a second.
As far as the person falling into the pit, I treat grabbing someone, etc., as like an attack of opportunity. If someone is within reach, they can make an attempt as an immediate action. This gives plenty of opportunity to save the character, imo. The character will get a reflex save in most cases, unless he's being careless just jogging through the dungeon, or whatever. Some falling situations even get a second chance to catch ones'self on the way down (losing whatever's in hand, of course). Then the chance of someone nearby trying the grab...
If they still fall, none of my players will hold it against me.
Good thoughts. If you give nearby folks a chance to grab as an AOO... why not let the sorc/wiz down the hall perform an immediate action or swift action? I guess, I'd like to still discuss this.
I need a full solution with examples if possible. And, with something this basic, seems like the community is split. In the clasic editions of the game, initiative counts were mere abstractions that represented teh stuff that happened during the round.
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The RAW is pretty clear concerning deathInstant deadification.Dead
When your character's current hit points drop to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score or lower, or if he succumbs to massive damage, he's dead. A character can also die from taking ability damage or suffering an ability drain that reduces his Constitution score to 0 (see Special Abilities).
Certain types of powerful magic, such as raise dead and resurrection, can restore life to a dead character. See Magic for more information.
I couldn't agree more. If you want leeway, fudge the dice and damage, not the rules.
/start combat/
Bbeg the BBEG rolls initiative for a total of 23.
Lump the Barbarian rolls initiative for a total of 15.
Healbot the Cleric rolls initiative for a total of 3.
/round 1/
/bbeg's turn/
Bbeg goes first, charges, rolls a natural 20 with a greataxe and deals 72 points of damage to Lump, who happens to have 60 hit points and a 14 Constitution before rage (and he is not raging).
Lump immediately drops to -12 and is not dead. Lump drops his dwarven greataxe and falls to the ground, unconscious.
/Lump's turn/
Lump cannot do anything but make a special constitution check to stop the bleeding. He gets a -12 modifier to his constitution check, and rolls a 3, failing to make the DC 10 check to stabilize on his own. He has no special gear or feats to prevent death. He takes another point of damage due to bleeding, and drops to -13, one point away from death. If he had a 13 constitution instead of 14, he would already be dead, even though the cleric is still flat-footed.
/Healbot's turn/
Healbot is carrying the Life staff, an artifact in this campaign. He takes a move action to walk over and uses a standard action to touch it to Lump, who immediately receives the benefit of a Heal spell. Lump is immediately restored to full hit points.
/round 2/
/Bbeg's turn/
Bbeg is mad that the Healbot has an artifact, so he holds his action to the end of the round to try and get around the rules. Bbeg delays.
/Lump's turn/
Lump draws a secondary weapon while prone, rages, and strikes Bbeg while prone at -4 to hit and lands a massive blow, knocking Bbeg to 1 hit point.
/Healbot's turn/
Healbot delays.
/Bbeg's turn/
Bbeg comes off of delay, "declaring" that initative is at 1 and it is clearly the end of the round. He attacks Lump, rolling another natural 20 and hits for 85 points of damage. Lump, who normally has 60 hit points, instead has 68 hit points due to rage. His constitution, normally a 14, is now an 18 due to rage. Lump is currently at -17 hit points.
/round 3/
/Healbot's turn/
Bbeg complains that Healbot cannot have gone at the end of round 2 because he specifically waited until the end to come off of delay. The GM, aware of the rules as written, says, "that's no problem, it is now round 3." Bbeg demands that Lump takes bleed damage unless he rolls it off since it is the end of the round, and the GM states that this does not take effect until Lump's next turn.
Healbot declares that he comes off of delay. He uses the staff again to Heal Lump.
/Lump's turn/
Lump draws a tertiary weapon while prone, continues to rage and strikes Bbeg while prone at -4 to hit and lands a massive blow, killing Bbeg.
/end combat/
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Put me down as one more for instantaneous death. However, I will say that my GM follows the "not dead until end of round/their next turn" houserule, and it's saved many characters. It even saved one of my favorite PCs once, and I was a bit upset - I felt it would've been better to die to a fair roll then survive due to a "softer" houserule.
However, I will admit that there are many players who disagree with me on that point and are very attached to their PCs (my wife falls into this category). I have implemented the discussed houserule on a case by case basis in my games - if a player seems upset that their PC is about to snuff it, I'll offer: "if someone can heal you before your next turn, you'll survive."
(But I do feel that the rule for dying could be altered so that higher leveled characters take a little more time to die than lower leveled ones)What about, instead of Dead= -Con, you use Dead= -(Con+Level)?
One popular houserule during 3.5 was "-(10+level)", which is essentially the same thing but unbiased between good and bad constitution. Either is good by me.
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We use insta-death, use what works for your group though.
I find the idea that "everything happens at the same time" to be a little circular reasoning to justify waiting until the end of the round to declare them dead. If everything happens at the same time then no one else would know to heal him until they had already acted. That's old school where everyone says what they are doing then they do it.
Anyhow, this is one of those things where it works any way you run it so keep doing it the way you guys like it.
Yeah, our group does the insta-death as well.
With spells like Close Wounds and Revivify we've had a good long run without a PC death.
Although, if TheWhiteKnife (DM) is reading this I'm sure he'll try harder to make my job as party healer a bit more stressfull.
*Edit- Oh, wait I forgot about the wizard dying a few sessions ago when she D-Doored across the board and got mauled by an invisible rogue! Oops...