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I posted and many things were said in time it took me to write.
So I will consolidate...
You cant have it both ways. You dont want your character to die so you want hidden rolls, but you want your spells to affect the baddie and make an insta kill in round 1 when you see your GM roll a 2-5 for the save behind his screen. Very interesting.
Character death has to be a threat (which is why I support rolling in the open) or what fun is it to play?
And speaking on DM railroads, allowing a PC to live through multiple instances of 'that character should have died if I had not fudged the damage roll' is railroading in and of itself. How can a player sit at the gaming table and know his character can never die?
That would make me, as a player, step up and demand changes or quit. (Of course, I would not be playing with a dm that hides combat rolls to begin with).
Enough said.
And saves are going to be crazy high, especially for BBEGs, at that level. What are your high saves? How affected would you be by save-or-suck spells?
I fail pretty much 40% of saves. Saves are about +12 average.
Saves are not the issue though. I know that if I target a weak save with my spell focus conjuration and high INT I can get at least a 25% chance on almost all BBEG's that they will fail it.
In some cases they even stay in the affected area for a couple of rounds and I can see the DM doesnt even roll their saves.
Role(play) with it. In this campaign your save or suck spells are on the fritz. Adapt your tactics. Overcome your abstacles. Crush your enemies.
And keep a record of the save DC's that these guys make all the time so you can present them in RPG court. Substantiation is half the battle.
My solution: Stab your DM in the heart.My DM looks like John Locke. I don't want to try it.
Sayid already tried that, dont you know you cant kill the smoke monster with conventional weaponry.
Sayid already tried that, dont you know you cant kill the smoke monster.My solution: Stab your DM in the heart.My DM looks like John Locke. I don't want to try it.
Yea I wasnt referring to the real one, rather the one from Lost!
You cant have it both ways. You dont want your character to die so you want hidden rolls, but you want your spells to affect the baddie and make an insta kill in round 1 when you see your GM roll a 2-5 for the save behind his screen. Very interesting.
Of course you can have it both ways. The problem isn't fudging. It's misuse of fudging that's the problem. It's a powerful tool and should be used judiciously, not most times the BBEG faces a save or suck spell.
Look, as a wizard, you're the most powerful class in Pathfinder. You've got to know that. Any combat you see at level 9+, in a fair game, you can totally destroy by yourself. But this sucks for -everybody-, because they don't feel important. Your DM has decided that, rather than letting it suck for everybody, he is simply not going to let you dominate fights.
So it would suck for everybody if I nauseated the BBEG at the start of combat? So it would suck for everyone if the BBEG was tripped?
Im not trying to steal the show. In fact I dont have any evocation spells except a magic missile. I just try to disable or weaken the BBEG and his minions so that my team can take him out.
It's only the DM that doesn't want the show to slow down so fast. So he lets the BBEG shrug off whatever I throw at him.
BTW I dont use save-or-dies. I use battlefield control spells that have saves. Almost everything is AOE.
well, a couple things if I may.
- First, have you spoken to your DM about your frustration with your character and her effectiveness? You may want to hear his side of the story before you pass judgment.
If I confront him then I am basically accusing him off fudging rolls the whole time. I dont have any evidence except probability. So it cant go down well. I have however been surprised every time (20-30 different encounters?) I have cast a spell on the enemy and he just skips along as if all is fine. (I also hate the word boss!)
We are playin an adventure path so I know that he doesnt design them to super standards. I know we are level 12 now, but at earlier levels I should have at least seen some spells hit home early in combat. If they dont have saves of +20 on all...
Some other points.
Your DM could very easily design NPCs leaders who have very high saves by the time they are in a fight with your party (buffs etc). Assuming it is a "boss" (I hate that term) if you guys are in the 12th level range the leader of the opposition is going to be a few levels higher - that is pretty much a constant. With all their magic items, spells, prep they can easily get some high bonuses on their fort or will saves. Their saves are not static and they scale just like your DCs do, probably faster since they get improvements every 2nd or 3rd level and you get them when your prime caster attribute goes up (every 4th)I know it may seem frustrating, but try putting yourself in your DM's shoes. He has to make the encounter tough enough to be a challenge for the whole party - not just so you can turn their lights in the first round in every major fight. Yet you want or expect the big bad guy to:
a) fall to single effect from a lower and weaker character (in relation to the bosses level)
b) eliminate the need for the rest of the party
c) solve all your problems with one spell - remember that is a two way street and your DM has WAY more ammo then you do.
What's the adventure path? I ran Age of Worms, and I'll be darned if any "bosses" fell to a save-or-suck spell. One or maybe two probably did fail a save, but I don't recall it. Their saves tended to be ridiculous. You really should run your feelings on the matter by your GM. At the very least, he'll be aware of your frustration.
Some of my personal thoughts on your matter:
To be honest, as a GM myself, I wouldn't want a climactic encounter ended on a single spell either, especially in the first round of combat. It is very anti-climactic. This runs both ways. As GM, I really don't like to one-shot a PC either, at least in the first round. Also, keep in mind your GM may be taking into account your PC's capability (as well as the other PCs) when running the BBEGs. Even if it is a published adventure, the GM is free to modify a creature's stats if need be (I know I have).
BTW what sort of save or suck spells are you throwing at the bosses that always fail?
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The issue of the rare fudge is you lose credibility with your players. Once you show a tendency to do it, they will suspect you do it all the time, and this will cause players to have left fun. Better to just eliminate the temptations.
It's better to just roll out in the open and let the dice fall. Players should feel vulnerable, like their character can potentially die, and BBEG should occassionally fall round 1. That keeps the free-flowing atmosphere going.
I think Crosswind's words make a good deal of sense. I don't know if I agree with them, but I think you should take time to consider to yourself: "If every opponent we came across failed the saves against my spells, would the other players still have fun and feel a sense of achievement on their own?"
If the answer to that question is anything other than a firm and instant yes, perhaps you should talk to your GM about the fact that you feel like your Wizard is a little useless since his best features are getting resisted a lot. Tell him that you realise save or suck can take the oomph out of his single enemy encounters.
Ask your GM if he has been giving the NPCs inflated scores to deal with you because he knows it wouldn't be as fun for the other players. Don't accuse him of fudging the rolls, ask him if he's been giving them better bonuses to saves. The one says to the GM "You're a terribly unfair cheat!" and the other says "I think you give the NPCs better bonuses than I feel they really deserve".
If your GM is open with you and admits what you suspect, then you can have a frank discussion about ways to give you what you want without making it hard for all the other players. Maybe he can toss in a few lower level henchmen on top of the regular encounters. It gives you or the group more to deal with, and gives you other important targets for your save or suck spells so that the fighter gets to be the one who strangles the big bad guy.
Maybe he doesn't like those options but is willing to allow you to revise your character a little bit to get a better group dynamic.
Your GM probably shouldn't fudge NPC rolls all the time, because clearly even if it's working for the other players it's coming at your expense, and it needs to be fun for everyone. That means you too. You deserve to have fun also, despite some of what I see here in other posts. But starting the conversation in a confrontational way is generally just a good way to get someone's defenses up. You want to come in from the side, thinking about everyone, or best of all from the position and situation of the GM themselves.
If your GM has a good sense of humour (don't do this if he doesn't), you can try making your point with a gift, such as buying him a new d20 and complaining that his current one rolls too high and you need the big bad guys to fail a few of those will/reflex/fort saves now and then. That can help break the ice and open a discussion.
I'm sorry to come off as harsh, here, but insta-winning combats isn't really a good-time for the rest of the players or the GM. It's probably why your GM won't let you do it.
Whether or not an insta-win is fun or not depends on how it's done. Do it with some style and panache and I guarantee people will be talking about it years later. If every boss fight ends with grinding them down, that's not exactly any more memorable or fun.
So it would suck for everybody if I nauseated the BBEG at the start of combat? So it would suck for everyone if the BBEG was tripped?
Yeah, dude. It would suck if the BBEG failed a Stinking Cloud save. Because then he can't do anything except move for 3-6 rounds (2-5 after he leaves the stinking cloud). Which basically gives your party 5 rounds of unopposed actions. The average combat in D&D lasts about 5 rounds. You have effectively destroyed the encounter by yourself. There is no challenge left to it, there is nothing interesting or heroic that any of the other PCs can do. You have dominated that combat, stolen the show, ruined the drama.
Tripped is a less imposing status effect. But I doubt you're tripping your enemy (conjuration spells). You're glitterdusting (blinded), stinking cloud (nauseated), Wall of Stone (Trapped), and all the other save-or-@#$%ed conjuration spells. All of those status effects, on a BBEG, make a challenging combat ridiculously trivial.
I'm sorry to come off as harsh, here, but insta-winning combats isn't really a good-time for the rest of the players or the GM. It's probably why your GM won't let you do it.
-Cross
A challenging BBEG will have a backup plan or somebody that can help him to survive and recover.
So what your saying is I should stand in the corner, shut my mouth, and fire magic missiles?
Should I not cast these save or suck spells in the hope that in one session my gold and feats spent on boosting DC's will pay off and that the BBEG will stumble around a bit?
(And btw I am tripping but that is besides the point)
I think the main point that some of the latest posters are missing is: I never ever get a BBEG to fail his save to a spell in the first couple of rounds. I dont want them to fail every time I cast something in every combat, I just want them to fail once in a while. like 5% of the time. That way I also feel needed. That way I will not take a sorcerer next time with straight blasting spells and put it on autopilot.
Look, as a wizard, you're the most powerful class in Pathfinder. You've got to know that. Any combat you see at level 9+, in a fair game, you can totally destroy by yourself. But this sucks for -everybody-, because they don't feel important. Your DM has decided that, rather than letting it suck for everybody, he is simply not going to let you dominate fights.
So it would suck for everybody if I nauseated the BBEG at the start of combat? So it would suck for everyone if the BBEG was tripped?
Im not trying to steal the show. In fact I dont have any evocation spells except a magic missile. I just try to disable or weaken the BBEG and his minions so that my team can take him out.
It's only the DM that doesn't want the show to slow down so fast. So he lets the BBEG shrug off whatever I throw at him.
BTW I dont use save-or-dies. I use battlefield control spells that have saves. Almost everything is AOE.
It would suck for the GM if the BBEG was nauseated at the start of combat. Not saying it should NEVER happen. Do you notice if he fudges rolls both ways?
As a GM, yes it sucks to have the BBEG go down in a round, but it happens. I have seen a 4th level Barbarian crit the pirate captain on a swiftly approaching ship, destroying the crews morale, a second level fighter charge/crit the BBEG caster in a PFS game, a wizard with See Ivis + Quickened Glitterdust ensure the 1 round demise of a surprised Illusionist. Sometimes it's luck, sometimes it's good planning, but BBEGs do sometimes go down without a fight. (I've also seen my wizard cast PK half a dozen times before getting it to go off correctly and drop a Big Nasty. It goes both ways.) I can totally see fudging the occasional roll for dramatic effect, but to do it all the time... that's an ego thing. Let the Wizard shine sometimes.
But that's me, not the GM in question. I would honestly talk to him about it. Not accusingly and not in front of the other players, but express your concerns as neutrally as you can.
What's the adventure path? I ran Age of Worms, and I'll be darned if any "bosses" fell to a save-or-suck spell. One or maybe two probably did fail a save, but I don't recall it. Their saves tended to be ridiculous. You really should run your feelings on the matter by your GM. At the very least, he'll be aware of your frustration.
I think everything above "cannon fodder" in AoW had bad saves around +20.
PS. This forum's method for trying to stop pyramid quoting is driving me nuts...
Note, so I'm not misunderstood: There's nothing wrong with optimization. People like to play powerful characters, people can roleplay totally fine with optimized characters, etc. It is my -personal opinion- that groups are more fun when everybody in the group contributes somewhat equally. Ultimately, it's the DM's job to do this, which occasionally involves hindering, in an "unfair?" manner, the most rules-adept players.
-Cross
But the whole point of the thread is that it is not occasionally, but consistently. And yes, that is unfair.
A challenging BBEG will have a backup plan or somebody that can help him to survive and recover.
So what your saying is I should stand in the corner, shut my mouth, and fire magic missiles?
Should I not cast these save or suck spells in the hope that in one session my gold and feats spent on boosting DC's will pay off and that the BBEG will stumble around a bit?
(And btw I am tripping but that is besides the point)
A challenging BBEG could also just have Spell Immunity: Stinking Cloud, Glitterdust, etc. In which case your spells would be equally useless - I mentioned this in my first post. That's the direction that I've seen other DMs take when faced with a wizard who wants to trivialize combats, but refuse to fudge rolls. But would the outcome be any different? You'd still feel bad because your spells never worked.
What I'm saying is that you should consider the effect that your actions will have on how the combat goes. Nobody is saying that you have to sit back and cast magic missiles (really? that's what you got from my post?). But if you choose actions that don't trivialize the combat (Take out his lieutenant. Disable some minions. Debuff the boss with dispels. Make his attacks worse. Haste your allies.), you'll probably end up getting a lot more DM support for your actions.
-Cross
I dont have a problem with spell immunity. If they are immune to spells and I can determine this somehow, then I can adapt. I'm being led to believe however that my spells can help in combat, when really they are just there for the henchmen.
The wizards spells are very powerful I agree, and do trivialize combat if they work. Isn't it then the BBEG's job (DM's job) to adapt to my casting?
I am doing all you are saying at the moment. Starting out with a haste and summoning a couple of monsters here and there. Its consistent at least.
I almost get the feeling that you would react differently if you actually saw a game session live. The DM is sortof like a 5-year old with an Iron Man figurine, every time a BBEG steps out. I think he likes to play the BBEG almost as much as we like to play our character's.
Other characters can walk up to the BBEG in the first round of combat and hit him on the head and crit with all their ridiculous bonuses. They are in control of all their rolls. I kind of envy that. I feel as if somebody is rolling my "attack rolls" for me and he rolls badly. I feel as if they can get lucky, but I cant.
It's good that you dominating encounters worked out for your group and that everybody had fun. However, I am not confident that that is the norm - in some games, not everybody has optimized their characters, and it's up to the GM to ensure that everybody feels like they contribute.
Note, so I'm not misunderstood: There's nothing wrong with optimization. People like to play powerful characters, people can roleplay totally fine with optimized characters, etc. It is my -personal opinion- that groups are more fun when everybody in the group contributes somewhat equally. Ultimately, it's the DM's job to do this, which occasionally involves hindering, in an "unfair?" manner, the most rules-adept players.
-Cross
Do you also think it's okay for the DM to on a consistent basis fudge the rogue's bluff checks because he's dominating social encounters? Most chars get to "dominate" an encounter or two occacionly, and I think that's a good thing. If all characters can say "i single-handedly saved the party today!" at least once in their career, that's a good thing IMO. Now, if what he had said was that his DC's are so high all BBEGs should fall to them, and that the DM fiats most of the rolls but lets a few bbegs get the slap, that's another thing. But not allowing his spells to function as the rules say they do, WITHOUT TELLING HIM, is being an a%&%*#@.
If the DM had before the game sat down and said "now, I don't like SoS's, so I might fudge the rolls for BBEGS occacionly" or "now, I don't like SoS's, so I'm going to allow the heroes and BBEGS to save twice for them", or even "now, I don't like SoS's, so you can't use them at all", that had been another thing. But what the DM is doing right now is like removing critical hits from the game after the fighter has taken imp. crit, and never telling anyone about it. It's pure douchebaggery.
Let me chime in with the rest of the posters: Talk to your DM about this issue.
It seems to be an issue for you, its worth addressing. Talking doesn't mean confronting. Mature people can talk about an issue without being confrontational. Unless he's a jerk, he'll listen and both of you can come to a solution, a middle ground, or at least be aware of each others views.
Avoid passive-aggressive solutions like going on a "effectiveness strike" to show how sucky your character is. This will only lead to frustrations, which will lead to anger, which will lead to pain, which will lead to the dark side of the force... Huh, you know what I mean.
Be responsible, expect your DM to be responsible and everything's gonna be alright. If not, at least you will have tried the right thing...
'findel
It's pure douchebaggery.That sort of implies that the GM is doing it out of malice. It might just be incompetence.
Good point. However, I still think it's unfair of him not to tell his players.
EDIT: The thing is, I'm not against DM fiat in any way - I use it quite extensively when I DM. I'm against consistent dm fiat against a certain tactic, without telling the players about it. And, since the player seem to think it rude to ask straight up if the DM is doing it, it seems the DM isn't open about his fiating, as he should be.
I'm never too attached to my BBEG to fudge rolls on any spells.
If the party manages to one shot him so be it.
If they do it consistantly then I can plan in advance and not let the tactics work the next time, but what it sounds like to me is the DM in this case, is a fan of his creation to the point that there's no way a puny wizard can stop him, but he can't deny the barbarians roll.
And, to the other guy, yes - if a rogue was solving all of the party's social situations by using the bluff skill, I would absolutely provide challenges that were not solvable with that skill.
-Cross
It's not about providing challenges that can't be solved with bluff, it's about blatantly saying "you failed at bluffing" without telling him why. And doing this every time he tries to bluff somebody important.
My number one pet peeve is DM fudging. Once the results on the die no longer matter, the game ceases to be fun. If a monster crits, it's only because the DM wanted it to. If the monster saves against a spell, it's only because the DM wants it to. I know that no matter what I choose to do, the party will succeed because that's what the plot requires.
I DM more than I play, and at my table, I always roll in the open for this exact reason. I warn the players ahead of time that it's up to them to keep their characters alive. The flip side is that it then becomes my responsibility not to throw deadly and inescapable encounters at them.
A very close second is gloryhound players, however. Anyone that has some deep-seated insecurity about their lives and has to create the "uber-leet badass" that deals thousands of damage in a round or has spell DCs in the upper 30s makes the game unenjoyable for the rest of the people at the table. I was all up on my high horse and ready to accuse the OP of this, for which I apologize. Stinking Cloud, Telekinesis, and other battlefield control spells are hardly gloryhounding.
I agree that you're being treated unfairly, but if you think the DM should be fudging rolls, I'm not sure what I can say besides "Good luck." I'll echo the advice of others and suggest you talk to the DM. His reasoning may be what some of the others have said: "I'm doing it to make BBEG combat more fun for the rest of the party." In that case, you may be relegated to keeping the mooks occupied while the rest of the party deals with the BBEG. Not exactly an exciting role, but it does have some cinematic draw: "I'll hold them off! You guys take care of Dr. Terrible!"
Spoiler:The point is:
- I want to cast save vs suck spells
- I know what the weakness of the boss in question is (knowledges are high)
- I know the bosses fail their saves occasionallyThe problem is:
Dm doesnt care if they fail their saves. It would take out the boss too quickly so he just hand waves the result away normally. Saying yeah he makes the save or whatever.
Its so frustrating.
Im not going to play an evoker. Its a good way to do a little damage to a lot of people. I want to focus on the bosses, since they pose the biggest threat.
Wait to use your save or suck spells until the 4th round? nail him with some maximized magic missiles in the first few rounds, that should make your DM happier. Bestow Curse first round to make his saves REALLY suck? Maybe cast haste on the other characters?
My opinion on the fudging thing is that it should not be done more than once or twice in a gaming session, and only in extreme cases.
I dont want party members to die, but if they do then so be it. I don't want the world to end, but if it does so be it.
Thing is if everyone on the table, DM included, thinks the current situation absolutely sucks balls, and he has to make the roll that will just spoil everyones day, including his, then it should be within his power to fudge it. I'm not talking just about character/party deaths, but gaming in general. I want a DM that I can trust with a fudge to help save a gaming session if it is absolutely needed.
On the other hand I also want to trust him with the BBEG's saves, and thats not what is happening now.
Throw a few empowered Rays of Enfeeblement around and see how that works out. No saves there and it's a serious de-buffer. If it has no effect, then you'd have enough evidence IMO to quietly discuss your concerns with your DM.
Enfeeblement has a save in pathfinder even though its for half. Still, it's a fun spell so ima gonna try it. Plus I am going to take craft rod so I will be able to make some empower rods.
Stuff
I normally cast haste first round, and after that it's pretty varied. Bestow curse is a bit tricky since it has a will save to negate, so there is a bit of a catch 22, hehe.
There's not enough information. There is the very good chance that the spell simply isn't working. . . especially if the bad guy is immune to the effect or gets a flat bonus against it. I notice you mention final encounters -- maybe the DM knows your abilities (as he should) and works around them occasionally (as he should). I say "occasionally" because you don't have regular BBEG fights -- they should be infrequent.
If the BBEG gets some prep time before a fight (almost always), I often buff my intelligent NPCs with practically everything under the sun to help with saves. . . everything available from resistance to foresight. As long as it is within budget (potions, spells, scrolls, etc.), it can be allowed -- especially if the PCs let the BBEG get some prep time. Sometimes I just slap on an untyped bonus on saves -- yes it can up the CR, but that's the point -- he's the BBEG.
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I read this thread and I hear the OP saying that his DM is great besides this one thing....I disagree. He is NOT a good DM. A good DM knows that the player's actions are determining how the story is told and he only provides the outlines of that story along with descriptions.
This dude sounds like someone who already has determined how every combat will play out. Every one will be the party just barely managing to overcome the boss after a long tough fight. That gets old after a ton of battles. I played with a supposed "great" DM also. It turned into the entire party just wasting actions for the first few rounds until we were sufficiently beat up and then we suddenly were super-effective. It sucked.
I ended up trying to suicide my PC through bad combat actions but the DM always made my PC miraculously live. It wasn't part of his story for my PC to die so I couldn't.
This is sucky DMing. The DM in question is using his powers in an unfair and controlling manner to predetermine the outcome of combats. That is not a good DM, it may be a good story-teller, but it isn't a good DM.
A DM is a referee. A referee showing favoritism to one team, player or type of action is not a good referee and neither is a DM doing the same.
You are very wise indeed Fake Healer. I've seen it too. DM ex machina kills player initiative and fun. A good game is supposed to allow players' actions and choices make the story and really accomplish something. Not a good DM here.
There's not enough information. There is the very good chance that the spell simply isn't working. . . especially if the bad guy is immune to the effect or gets a flat bonus against it. I notice you mention final encounters -- maybe the DM knows your abilities (as he should) and works around them occasionally (as he should). I say "occasionally" because you don't have regular BBEG fights -- they should be infrequent.
If the BBEG gets some prep time before a fight (almost always), I often buff my intelligent NPCs with practically everything under the sun to help with saves. . . everything available from resistance to foresight. As long as it is within budget (potions, spells, scrolls, etc.), it can be allowed -- especially if the PCs let the BBEG get some prep time. Sometimes I just slap on an untyped bonus on saves -- yes it can up the CR, but that's the point -- he's the BBEG.
The spells work sometimes, just not at the start of combat. The first couple of rounds.
This is for all threatening bad guys, not just final bosses. So any 1/2/3 creatures with a CR matching our party is about immune to me in early combat.
Be an evoker and carpet bomb everything. Lets see him ignore that.Every boss will just have evasion :-/
I hate evasion!
I think it should be save for half or minimum damage. There should always be an effect to spell. So with 10D6 fireball the average damage is 35, half is 17, and minimum is 6.
In our current game I am playing a wizard. When we are in combat I have a lot of spells to choose from, but most of them are save or suck spells. Since she has a very high INT, the DC's for these spells are all 20+
The problem is I can never ever ever disable/take out the boss. When I cast the spell in question on the boss the DM makes the saving throw in secret and just continues the game. As if the boss made the save easily. It's as if he doesn't want the combat to end in the first round or two.
This is really frustrating. To the point where I am summoning creatures more than I am casting spells that take out the boss.
I know some bosses have high saves, but we are almost level 12 now and I dont think I have once had a boss fail a save vs one of my spells in the first 1-4 rounds of combat.
What should I do? this makes my wizard feel useless.
Rule Number 1 of being a wizard:
Always Maximize your casting stat.Rule Number 2 of being a wizard:
Never give up caster levels.
Rule Number 3 of being a wizard:
You will never succeed with a SoS or SoD spell against the BBEG.
You are better off finding other spells to cast against a BBEG than "winnar!" type spells. Battlefield control, buffing, heck even damage spells are all kosher -- but if it is a SoD or SoS you can generally guarantee you are going to be SoL against the BBEG.
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The Law of Averages is often times a fickle mistress, so you can't be sure your DM is actually forcing this situation to happen. For example, a cleric in my game has cast command 5 times so far over the course of my campaign, all on BBEGs in my game, and every single time, I have rolled less than a 5 for their save. One time I only needed a 6 and I rolled a 1. Does this mean I am "giving the players a break" by making it work, or favoring the cleric? Nope, just sheer weird dice rolls. Could be similar, especially since at your level, the bonuses start to add up pretty high.
Not saying you are incorrect in your assumption about your DM, just saying... it is possible to be coincidence.
Also, I agree with earlier posters, find a couple good de-buff spells and make sure you toss them first, or make a magic item that does them (even better), and hit him with your save or die in the 2nd rd. Maybe that will appease the DMs sense of fairness if there is regular "fudging".