In our current game I am playing a wizard. When we are in combat I have a lot of spells to choose from, but most of them are save or suck spells. Since she has a very high INT, the DC's for these spells are all 20+
The problem is I can never ever ever disable/take out the boss. When I cast the spell in question on the boss the DM makes the saving throw in secret and just continues the game. As if the boss made the save easily. It's as if he doesn't want the combat to end in the first round or two.
This is really frustrating. To the point where I am summoning creatures more than I am casting spells that take out the boss.
I know some bosses have high saves, but we are almost level 12 now and I dont think I have once had a boss fail a save vs one of my spells in the first 1-4 rounds of combat.
What should I do? this makes my wizard feel useless.
Find the weakness. Every character has a bad saving through (unless all of the bosses are monks ;) ). Usually bigger enemies have bad reflex saves, fighter-esque bosses generally have bad will saves... fort is usually tough to beat.
Also you can find spells that dont have saving throws. With a heap of metamagic feats, scorching ray is a force to be reckoned with, as is ray of enfeeblement. No saving throw, you just need to make a ranged touch attack and pass their spell resistance. Also rays crit for double damage on a natural 20 ;)
Hope this helps a tiny bit. Just dig through the spells, you can find some very good ones that you wouldn't expect
Be an evoker and carpet bomb everything. Lets see him ignore that.
I understand your frustration, but you have to put yourself in your DM's shoes. He's planning these tough encounters and it's got to be annoying to have you pick off the boss in the first round. It's not playing fair on your part.
I would suggest doing things your DM can't really argue with. Summon monsters, buff your allies, put up walls and battlefield control to defend against your opponent's assault.
Be an evoker and carpet bomb everything. Lets see him ignore that.
Every boss will just have evasion :-/
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well, a couple things if I may.
- First, have you spoken to your DM about your frustration with your character and her effectiveness? You may want to hear his side of the story before you pass judgment.
Some other points.
Your DM could very easily design NPCs leaders who have very high saves by the time they are in a fight with your party (buffs etc). Assuming it is a "boss" (I hate that term) if you guys are in the 12th level range the leader of the opposition is going to be a few levels higher - that is pretty much a constant. With all their magic items, spells, prep they can easily get some high bonuses on their fort or will saves. Their saves are not static and they scale just like your DCs do, probably faster since they get improvements every 2nd or 3rd level and you get them when your prime caster attribute goes up (every 4th)
I know it may seem frustrating, but try putting yourself in your DM's shoes. He has to make the encounter tough enough to be a challenge for the whole party - not just so you can turn their lights in the first round in every major fight. Yet you want or expect the big bad guy to:
a) fall to single effect from a lower and weaker character (in relation to the bosses level)
b) eliminate the need for the rest of the party
c) solve all your problems with one spell - remember that is a two way street and your DM has WAY more ammo then you do.
I just think it is a bad attitude to have with regard to your caster. Instead of expecting a death spell or disintegrate to take out the lead guy before the end of the first round, maybe you could focus on weakening his lead henchmen, while you wear him down for a possible shot with your best spell.
In any case, you should take to your DM and get his side of the story and tell him your concerns.
Find the weakness. Every character has a bad saving through (unless all of the bosses are monks ;) ). Usually bigger enemies have bad reflex saves, fighter-esque bosses generally have bad will saves... fort is usually tough to beat.
Also you can find spells that dont have saving throws. With a heap of metamagic feats, scorching ray is a force to be reckoned with, as is ray of enfeeblement. No saving throw, you just need to make a ranged touch attack and pass their spell resistance. Also rays crit for double damage on a natural 20 ;)
Hope this helps a tiny bit. Just dig through the spells, you can find some very good ones that you wouldn't expect
The point is:
- I want to cast save vs suck spells
- I know what the weakness of the boss in question is (knowledges are high)
- I know the bosses fail their saves occasionally
The problem is:
Dm doesnt care if they fail their saves. It would take out the boss too quickly so he just hand waves the result away normally. Saying yeah he makes the save or whatever.
Its so frustrating.
Im not going to play an evoker. Its a good way to do a little damage to a lot of people. I want to focus on the bosses, since they pose the biggest threat.
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Well if he is just hand waving it, and you want to make a caster who is dedicated to "save or suck" spells - just to take out the "bosses",
I guess you are both just SOL. You more so than your DM, but he has to live with that guilt, lol.
Sounds like a fun gaming group though.
I should thank my players at tomorrow nights game. Good group of guys.
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My solution: Stab your DM in the heart.
If the above doesn't work then vote him out of DMing for being an undead, who obviously can't feel joy or guilt and thus shouldn't be running a game.
More realistic suggestions:
A) Less likely to work: Ask the DM to roll the saving throw outside the DM screen. If the DM can't accept the possibility that the enemy might fail the saving throw he isn't making a very dynamic campaign. See point F.
B) More likely to piss off the DM: Next time you fail a save against a "save or suck" spell tell him "Sorry, that doesn't work until round 4."
C) More likely to suck for you: Quit the group (preferably have your character commit suicide in some glorious manner, such as a fireball up the nostril). If this doesn't get the point across... well, find a new group.
D) More likely to suck less for both: Ask the DM if you can recreate your character (presumably same race and class) on account of him disagreeing with your build's strategies in common situations. If he doesn't want the dramatic encounters ended with a save-or-suck he shouldn't let the player play that. I recommend a ray-based build. Most bosses don't have the best touch AC.
E) Most likely to suck for you: Suck it up and play your useless wizard. If you get lucky you'll land a job in a prestigious mage academy as an example of how to suck.
F) Ask the DM what kind of campaign he's going for. If you don't like that kind of campaign, and other players would be okay with changing to a different path, try following that route. If this isn't an option, he didn't make it clear what kind of campaign he wanted and your character is incompatible, see point D.
well, a couple things if I may.
- First, have you spoken to your DM about your frustration with your character and her effectiveness? You may want to hear his side of the story before you pass judgment.
If I confront him then I am basically accusing him off fudging rolls the whole time. I dont have any evidence except probability. So it cant go down well. I have however been surprised every time (20-30 different encounters?) I have cast a spell on the enemy and he just skips along as if all is fine. (I also hate the word boss!)
Some other points.
Your DM could very easily design NPCs leaders who have very high saves by the time they are in a fight with your party (buffs etc). Assuming it is a "boss" (I hate that term) if you guys are in the 12th level range the leader of the opposition is going to be a few levels higher - that is pretty much a constant. With all their magic items, spells, prep they can easily get some high bonuses on their fort or will saves. Their saves are not static and they scale just like your DCs do, probably faster since they get improvements every 2nd or 3rd level and you get them when your prime caster attribute goes up (every 4th)I know it may seem frustrating, but try putting yourself in your DM's shoes. He has to make the encounter tough enough to be a challenge for the whole party - not just so you can turn their lights in the first round in every major fight. Yet you want or expect the big bad guy to:
a) fall to single effect from a lower and weaker character (in relation to the bosses level)
b) eliminate the need for the rest of the party
c) solve all your problems with one spell - remember that is a two way street and your DM has WAY more ammo then you do.
We are playin an adventure path so I know that he doesnt design them to super standards. I know we are level 12 now, but at earlier levels I should have at least seen some spells hit home early in combat. If they dont have saves of +20 on all fronts then surely I must see something happen. All i ever get is the henchmen.
I dont expect the enemy to fall to a single effect of a lower and weaker character every time. I just want it to work once or twice. My party makes fun of my spell choices since they never ever work, when I know that they are the correct spells to choose.
Im not trying to be god here. Its the DM's job to make sure everyone has fun and this is bugging me. Its not like I want to hog the spotlight, i just want to be effective in combat. Whats the point of rolling a high initiative if you are just wasting spells in the first round or two. If my save spells only work at the end of combat when his monster/ evil guy has had his way for a few rounds, then we are going to die! Early round dice roll fudging will become dangerous as enemies become increasingly dangerous later on.
Also my spells are not save or die. Most of them just hamper the enemy. This makes it easier for my party to take him down. I would rather have him blinded and have a henchman TP in and cure him, then just have the spell *poof* off of his "rolls".
I just think it is a bad attitude to have with regard to your caster. Instead of expecting a death spell or disintegrate to take out the lead guy before the end of the first round, maybe you could focus on weakening his lead henchmen, while you wear him down for a possible shot with your best spell.In any case, you should take to your DM and get his side of the story and tell him your concerns.
I dont expect it to take out the lead guy. I just expect it to happen sometimes. Its a bad attitude to not allow this to happen.
So now my combat starts with summons and buffs all round, until the party is starting to die, at which point I gamble on save or suck spells when the DM starts to feel sorry for us. The other thing is that the spells are very effective at the end of combat, but not at the start, so it cant be a save/SR/immunity thing.
I DM aswell so I know what its like to have somebody kill off a potentially cool encounter, but I allow it and I make sure that at the next encounter I will try to prevent it from happening, without metagaming or dice fudging.
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What should I do? this makes my wizard feel useless.
Well my first thing is talk to your DM and explain how you feel and why it bothers you. If he is hand waving it and after you talk to him he keeps doing it. Well all you can do is play a different style of wizard(summoner, evoker or something) or play a different class, or find a new group.
I mean seriously if the DM doesn't care if you are having fun in the game. After you talk to him in depth about it, then i would seriously look for a new group or ask to run next maybe.
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Since you replied while I was reading and replying. I still say talk to them. Don't accuse them of it, only explain how you feel and then ask if their is any feats etc your character could learn to be more effective.
Basically make sure he knows how you feel and that you are not having fun because of it. If he is a good DM he will work with you and or offer you some suggestions to help you have more fun.
My solution: Stab your DM in the heart.
My DM looks like John Locke. I don't want to try it.
If the above doesn't work then vote him out of DMing for being an undead, who obviously can't feel joy or guilt and thus shouldn't be running a game.
He is a great DM in all other aspects and I am having a lot of fun outside of this problem.
More realistic suggestions:A) Less likely to work: Ask the DM to roll the saving throw outside the DM screen. If the DM can't accept the possibility that the enemy might fail the saving throw he isn't making a very dynamic campaign. See point F.
Once I sat next to him and could see every single dice roll. Many landed in the 2-5 range, but its as if the outcome is prerolled in his head. Doesn't matter what it comes to with a dice.
B) More likely to piss off the DM: Next time you fail a save against a "save or suck" spell tell him "Sorry, that doesn't work until round 4."
Yea, I am the only person noticing this at the moment. It will be kindoff an inside joke
C) More likely to suck for you: Quit the group (preferably have your character commit suicide in some glorious manner, such as a fireball up the nostril). If this doesn't get the point across... well, find a new group.
I like the group and I like the people. Which makes it harder to ask the DM if he is fudging rolls. It would be very rude!
D) More likely to suck less for both: Ask the DM if you can recreate your character (presumably same race and class) on account of him disagreeing with your build's strategies in common situations. If he doesn't want the dramatic encounters ended with a save-or-suck he shouldn't let the player play that. I recommend a ray-based build. Most bosses don't have the best touch AC.
Potential solution, but I dont need a rebuild, I can just get new spells. Wizards are cool that way
E) Most likely to suck for you: Suck it up and play your useless wizard. If you get lucky you'll land a job in a prestigious mage academy as an example of how to suck.
That is my plan atm. I am hoping that sooner or later there will be a party death as a result of this problem. With me surviving of course. Then he will be a bit more realistic with the early saves. Hehehehehe!
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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It's a shame if he's fudging rolls just because the bad guy needs to do his cool stuff before going down. One of the most memorable encounters my group had was when they finally made it to the evil warlord and his elite guard, and nailed him with a baleful polymorph in the first round.
I was DM-ing and had been guilty of fluffing saves in the past to make it more 'exciting'. This was the day I'd turn over a new leaf and let the dice fall where they may. Yes, a DM should make it enjoyable, and thrilling, and exciting... but they also have to make sure every player shines every so often. The fighters get to crit, the rogue does massive sneak attacks occasionally, the wizard though - he's tricky. Not only has he limited spells to manage but all the best bad guys have SR on top. And then a save after that. And if the spell gets through, it's the end of the fight. I think I equated that with "the end of the fun." Which it isn't.
The elite guard just looked at each other, stunned, before one scooped up the widdle bunny wabbit and exited through a secret door while the rest gave their lives to buy him time. (They considered surrender but deep down they figured that he'd get himself resurected or have a clone or whatever, and hunt them down later.)
When it worked, the first action of the combat by the first player to act... the table was stunned. And that awesome moment is remembered better than all the 'tough bosses' that got wore down and hit quite hard for a while first.
Of course, I still fluff dice all over the shop. Don't want the players to miss ALL the funky effects the bad guys can deliver, after all. I have just made peace with the fact that every so often, a 1 is a 1.
I am in agreement with Carborundum. I've GMd a lot, and the most important thing to do is give players the feeling that MOST of the time, they have control over their own fates. Completely stimying a plaer's build all the time makes the gaming experience worse for everyone. Let some of them fail, let most of them fail even, if that's the way the dice roll. If a lot of them fail, imagine how scared the PC will be when one doesn't. "Oh Man, why can't I do it? Is it an item? a special ability? what do we need to do to this one? He's not like the others" So a boss dies, well guess what, he was only a puppet, and you suddenly hear a clapping and someone comes out of the shadows to challenge them who is even more powerful. THere are lots of things to do, but letting the players shine is the most important job of the DM.
Tell your DM that you've noticed that your spells never seem to work properly. You don't need to accuse him of anything. Ask if you can change some of your spells known, or if he can supply opportunities for you to use them. For example, if the Evil Overlord has a major ally or servant, that is more than just a henchman, it might work better tro try it on that character.
And yes, it's unfair to fudge the rolls, especially when it comes to save-or-sucks, because those spells generally aren't the strongest. That is, unless you've really optimized and twinked out of your ass to make the save DC unbeatable.
It would have been nicer of him to let you have your way with an early big baddie or two, and then let the higher BBEG's learn of your characters tactic and take measures against it. Not by fudging rolls but by increasing their chances via feats and items. Even if your tactic wouldn't have worked very well at killing them, it would still have drained their resources.
Even the most fair-minded DM is biased when writing up BBEGs for his party to kill. We may put a lot of thought into realistic feat/skill/spell choices for our adversary, but in the end they're created with the notion that their basic purpose is to oppose the PCs. They're reactionary. So we stock them up with save boosting buffs and items, we put them at the "end" of a dungeon or what-have-you, and we give them minions as a buffer so the fighter doesn't just lop their head off in the second round. It's totally anticlimactic when that happens, from the DM side of the screen.
But from the other side it's a different story. Certain types of adventures create a mood toward the end wherein the PCs know they're going to go up against something nasty and their odds of survival have diminished due to previous encounters; the wizard's running out of spells (at low levels), etc. One-shotting the BBEG can really provide catharsis at that point. The tension deflates, everyone high-fives, and the next 15 minutes are spent jabbering about how COOL that was. Sure the DM can get a bit dejected, but no more so than a player when his first character in the campaign dies.
We DMs knowingly make sacrifices by choosing to DM (time, effort, money) and I've never understood the kind of DM who's in it to beat the PCs (not that I think OP's DM is necessarily doing that).
On the flip side, *routinely* one-shotting the BBEG is bogus. Routinely fudging dice rolls is bogus too. It's a relatively fine line, I guess.
Zo
So we stock them up with save boosting buffs and items, we put them at the "end" of a dungeon or what-have-you, and we give them minions as a buffer so the fighter doesn't just lop their head off in the second round.
Actually, I think there's a good in-game reason for that too. The big baddies primary interest is surviving, and they don't usually travel a lot, so it makes sense for them to get strong defenses in the form of castles and guards. The heroes on the other hand, are on a mission to save the world or whatever, or are cynical mercenaries - either way, they can't just invest in a safe place to be, they have to be able to deal with their problems themselves, not just survive them, especially since an army is quite cumbersome.
I can feel your pain, as I have played a wizard once who had really "bad luck" in getting his spells through as well. Undead, for instance, almost always succeeded at their Fort saves vs. disintegrate, which shouldn't be the case. Frustrating.
But I can understand your GM as well. I'm GMing a campaign right now, and it's very annoying to me (and the other players) that a certain sorcerer takes the spotlight too often.
Thing is, it is neither your fault nor the GMs. It's the game, which at higher levels is about initiative and saving (and SR).
The solution is probably two-sided. Top-priority: Talk to your GM in private. With the other players not beeing present. This is important. He cannot admit to you fudging some dice rolls with the others present, and he shouldn't tell that he makes it so that the others shine. Tell him that you feel frustrated, and listen to his advice and solutions. If he's a good GM, he has noticed it, and has likely thought about it himself. Then reason your thinking, and be ready to present some well thought solutions, too. Come to an agreement.
What I did as a player, was accepting the fate of bosses, and adjust spell selection accordingly. Many no-save-still-suck spells are great (solid fog, enervation, evard's tentacles, later irresitible dance, maze, well you know it). And I got out the big save-or-suck spell in round 2 or 3 of the combat, after the other party members had their glory (or not).
What I do now as a GM, is avoiding single bosses (they should always have mooks, better yet: a potent body-guard or healer), having terrain interfere, presenting secondary objectives in boss fights, give them spell turning, rings of counterspells, antimagic fields and whatnot. Yeah, it's more work, but much more fun for everyone. Oh, and pushing saves is the greatest buff a boss can have, so I usually include cloaks of resistance, greater heroism, and/or protection from spells.
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#1 Ask your GM what's going on. "Hey look, I don't understand why these spells seem to NEVER work..." Don't accuse, ask.
#2 It's possible it's just bad luck or that the creatures are making their saving throws.
#3 I avoid single target save or suck spells for this exact reason. If they work they aren't fun for the GM, if they don't work they aren't fun for you.
#4 There are plenty of spells in the book, pick ones that don't have saves.
..Stuff...
One moment my friends and player still talk about many, many years after it happened. They were dealing with an evil, obnoxious wizard, and I believe, if memory serves me correctly, that they were just about to fight him, when one of the players used a wish he had from some obscure source (a reward from a minor devine entity they helped, never mind that!), and turned the wizard into a frog. End of battle. It was glorious! Eventhough I was looking forward to clean the room with the PC's 'cause this was a rather powerful wizard they angered... :-) This was way back in the 2nd ed. days I think...
But again, this just goes to show, that not all fights that are over in round 1 are bad. They are bad if it's always like that. Balance! Balance! Balance!
My 2cp.
Thank you for all your comments guys.
I would like to add that it is not just the ultimate boss that is unaffected, it is anybody that has a name or poses a threat to the party.
#1 Ask your GM what's going on. "Hey look, I don't understand why these spells seem to NEVER work..." Don't accuse, ask.
#2 It's possible it's just bad luck or that the creatures are making their saving throws.
#3 I avoid single target save or suck spells for this exact reason. If they work they aren't fun for the GM, if they don't work they aren't fun for you.
#4 There are plenty of spells in the book, pick ones that don't have saves.
My spells normally are not single target save or sucks. They are battlefield control spells mostly, but ones with saves. It works fine on the minions (obviously), they just dont work on people that are expected to make it to round 4-5 at least. A lot of the spells are just irritating, like web/grease/glitterdust/pyrotechnics/clouds etc. I am hesitant to cast these spells because they harm the party more than do good, even if they are not in the casting area. Obviously this is just a low level example but you get the point.
I've played a sorcerer in the Savage Tide AP and at one point I could disable lots of mobs with only a 2nd level spell (Glitterdust, excellent save or suck spell).
But I never used that kind of spells on boss, because they are always higher level than the party, giving them better ST (and even more if the DM customized them to counter very high DCs of the PC's spells). And as save-or-suck spells are all or nothing, they are not the most uselful against boss, unless you can debuff them.
On the other hand, I don't DM very often but when I do, I want PC to earn their XPs with their talent, not because I roll badly on a ST at round 2. And if I fudge dice for mobs, I return the favor to my players also : when the big orc barbarian scores a natural 20 while power attacking the paladin with less than 10 HP, I can assure you he'll never confirm (but I'll take a long time to make the maths, as if he rolled very close)
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For what it's worth as a GM this is a great reason to do combat rolls/ saves where everyone can see them. Then there is no doubt in the players mind. The only rolls I hide are ones where the result isn't obvious immediately or where mystery helps play, for example searching.
I know others have different philosophies but that's the way I roll ;)
A lot of good answers here, so I'll just add my own philosophy as a GM:
I run for the sake of the story. That means that I alter rolls in BOTH directions (PC and NPC) when and if it will help the story along. This happens rarely, because I can roll (pun intended) with whatever happens on the dice.
I've said it a bunch of times: BBEGs got to be BBEGs because they are smart, tough, and have been through as much, if not more than the PCs. They should be prepared for whatever life can throw at them. That said, no they won't make every roll, but they WILL have a contingency plan.
There is an inkling in what I'm reading here that smacks of a little issue on both sides of the screen. It may be that you have to meet your GM halfway. I am all for the talk it out between you two privately scenario and see what shakes out. Be prepared though, in case you don't hear what you want to hear.
Last thought: your GM may need to come to grips with my #1 Rule of Being a GM:
You can't out-think a table full of experienced gamers. aka Sometimes the grease spell gets ya...
This is why as a DM I always roll infront of the players and let the chips fall where they fall. I won't go easy on em... and I also won't fudge dice so that everything of mine passes. I often crit a lot aswell... and it seems to work for everyone this way.
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It's just a question of which side of the coin you're on. I've had this discussion with countless GMs. Some want to be able to cheat dice, mostly in favor of the players, because it enables more difficult ("exciting") encounters. By the same token, many of these do not want the BBEG to "save or suck" and be chumped by a single bad die roll; especially if it was a custom bad guy they spent half an hour statting up. If your GM is one of these, become a buffing type when the BBEG comes into play; your spells will never work, and even if they legitimitely made the roll you will suspect them. Recognize he is trying to be good; and is probably cheating in the party's favor more often than he cheats against them.
I am on the other side of the coin, roll dice in front of my PCs. But this has led to awkward situations; I have TPKed or near TPKed from luck streaks; and had enemies reduced to nothing with a single bad save (kinda anticlimatic). On the other hand, I feel my PCs feel more accomplished knowing I am not pulling punches and letting them feel useful.
Actually, I think there's a good in-game reason for that too. The big baddies primary interest is surviving, and they don't usually travel a lot, so it makes sense for them to get strong defenses in the form of castles and guards.
Sure, it's justifiable. It also provides a fun age-old story arc, and is enough of an RPG trope that subverting it (pitting the PCs against the BBEG early in the adventure for example) can feel "fresh".
However, and this has been said in other threads better than I'm saying it here, in a "real world" scenario, the BBEG would just as likely "scry and fry" the PCs, or send an overwhelming number of assassins after them, or group all 50 of his zombies along with all his traps in the first chamber in the dungeon, instead of kindly spreading them piecemeal throughout. That's how modern wars are fought; with night-vision goggles, unmanned hellfire missile-toting drones, and other "force multiplier"-type tactics. That doesn't sound very heroic or fun to me.
Zo
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I read this thread and I hear the OP saying that his DM is great besides this one thing....I disagree. He is NOT a good DM. A good DM knows that the player's actions are determining how the story is told and he only provides the outlines of that story along with descriptions.
This dude sounds like someone who already has determined how every combat will play out. Every one will be the party just barely managing to overcome the boss after a long tough fight. That gets old after a ton of battles. I played with a supposed "great" DM also. It turned into the entire party just wasting actions for the first few rounds until we were sufficiently beat up and then we suddenly were super-effective. It sucked.
I ended up trying to suicide my PC through bad combat actions but the DM always made my PC miraculously live. It wasn't part of his story for my PC to die so I couldn't.
This is sucky DMing. The DM in question is using his powers in an unfair and controlling manner to predetermine the outcome of combats. That is not a good DM, it may be a good story-teller, but it isn't a good DM.
A DM is a referee. A referee showing favoritism to one team, player or type of action is not a good referee and neither is a DM doing the same.
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For what it's worth as a GM this is a great reason to do combat rolls/ saves where everyone can see them. Then there is no doubt in the players mind. The only rolls I hide are ones where the result isn't obvious immediately or where mystery helps play, for example searching.
I know others have different philosophies but that's the way I roll ;)
This is how I DM also. It isn't attractive to me as a DM or a player to have someone's class skill, action, item, or ability suddenly not work because I don't feel that combat or whatever was exciting enough.
It's about mutual trust and the OP doesn't have trust in his DM.|
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And while I have seen the other side of the coin, I will say this technique leads to untrusting PCs; that can often ruin a campaign. After all, you start to feel (as the last poster stated) that your actions are being controlled, and this completly eliminates that heroic feel. Twice I have stopped playing with GMs because of this cheating.
If I had to choose between a DM that doesn't fudge rolls and rolls out in the open, and one that fudges rolls, then I would choose the one that fudges.
It's a necessary evil. Rolling in secret gives the DM more control over the party's fate, so this is good for the frontline tanks, since things like crit deaths won’t happen often. On the other hand the BBEG won’t drop as quickly.
I’m getting so use to everything making their saving throws that it is becoming very disheartening. If only he gave my character a chance to shine every now and again it would have been fine.
I try to be as innovative and creative as possible to clamp down bad guys. I’m always preparing a lot of different spells and scrolls. I want the party to say, “wow, well played wizard, you really saved us a lot of trouble there”. If only once in a while.
I don’t want just a dice roll, a head nod, and a “Ok, who is next?” from the DM.
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If I had to choose between a DM that doesn't fudge rolls and rolls out in the open, and one that fudges rolls, then I would choose the one that fudges.
It's a necessary evil. Rolling in secret gives the DM more control over the party's fate, so this is good for the frontline tanks, since things like crit deaths won’t happen often. On the other hand the BBEG won’t drop as quickly.
I’m getting so use to everything making their saving throws that it is becoming very disheartening. If only he gave my character a chance to shine every now and again it would have been fine.
I try to be as innovative and creative as possible to clamp down bad guys. I’m always preparing a lot of different spells and scrolls. I want the party to say, “wow, well played wizard, you really saved us a lot of trouble there”. If only once in a while.
I don’t want just a dice roll, a head nod, and a “Ok, who is next?” from the DM.
There are ways to fudge combat without fudging rolls. The BBEG could act over-confidently and place himself in a slightly bad position, the DM can adjust hit points and damage modifiers on the fly if combat is getting really hairy for the PCs, and sometimes an occasional PC death can be a great part of the story and a wonderful roleplaying experience.
Also a great DM can decide to give the party "fate points" or something to avert accidental party member deaths.A great DM doesn't make a player hit the messageboards with wishes of "If only my PC could shine".
I’m getting so use to everything making their saving throws that it is becoming very disheartening. If only he gave my character a chance to shine every now and again it would have been fine.
Have you spoken with the other players to see if they feel the same way? Maybe it's not just you.
Zo
I read this thread and I hear the OP saying that his DM is great besides this one thing....I disagree. He is NOT a good DM. A good DM knows that the player's actions are determining how the story is told and he only provides the outlines of that story along with descriptions.
This dude sounds like someone who already has determined how every combat will play out. Every one will be the party just barely managing to overcome the boss after a long tough fight. That gets old after a ton of battles. I played with a supposed "great" DM also. It turned into the entire party just wasting actions for the first few rounds until we were sufficiently beat up and then we suddenly were super-effective. It sucked.
I ended up trying to suicide my PC through bad combat actions but the DM always made my PC miraculously live. It wasn't part of his story for my PC to die so I couldn't.
This is sucky DMing. The DM in question is using his powers in an unfair and controlling manner to predetermine the outcome of combats. That is not a good DM, it may be a good story-teller, but it isn't a good DM.
A DM is a referee. A referee showing favoritism to one team, player or type of action is not a good referee and neither is a DM doing the same.
Yea you have a point. It is kind of sucky. Trust is the biggest thing, and I dont think I trust this DM that much. He railroads us too much I suppose. When we roll initiative I get agitated already because I know Im going to cast something with a save that will just be swept under the carpet.
Another thing about this DM is that he is a very NO NO NO dm. If you do anything outside of the box, or ask him something about a spell or class ability that could benefit you ingame, his first stance is NO. Its then your job (if your not playing a commoner) to rules-lawyer it for 10 minutes to get him to allow it.
Last year we played a campaign with a different DM. Everything was so much cooler. I didn't have a wizard, but everyone was just having fun. Everything was YES, you can do that. Yes you can exit the dungeon and run to the shop, there isnt an invisible forcefield keeping you here. Yes you can jump onto the horse from that tree, but you better roll for it!
I dont think a DM is a referee. A referee is someone that penalizes you for making mistakes and breaking the rules. The DM in my opinion is somebody that should ENABLE you to have fun within the rules.
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I think you're projecting a bit. The player is complaining that his save or suck spells don't seem to be working, that's true, but he's also said he's seen some of these die rolls and they've been low. He hasn't indicated any evidence that the DM is fudging on the side of the BBEG - only a feeling that he is.
Believe it or not, this is common and usually has nothing to do with the DM actually cheating. Between selective memory (which is no one's fault, it just happens to even the most fair minded of us) and the math being against one shotting the BBEG, one expects this very thing.
The issue is one of how to either A.) reduce the ambiguity by increasing accountability (such as with the suggestion that all die rolls be in the open) and B.) building trust...
He's not trying to one shot the BBEG, he is doing save or suck spells. Stuff that reduces the BBEG's effectiveness so he is easier to take down and he said he is targeting the bad saves of the guy. It's OK to not have that work the majority of the time because baddies do have some good saves most of the time but it's not OK for it to never work. Targeting bad saves he should get the effect off at least 25% of the time if not more like 50%. This guy is being made fun of by his other group members for being so ineffectual in BBEG combat and is not having fun playing because he isn't seeing results. That is bad DMing.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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Yeah, a referee makes sure that the same rules are applied equally and fairly to all concerned, and that if something works one day it also works the day after in the same way.
(Assuming it's not one of those "we'll call it DC25 for now and look it up during the week" calls)
Interesting thread - I'm sorry for the difficulties you're having in game OP. :D
Aside from confronting him, I only have one suggestion. Try teaming up with another character and working together to bring his saves down. E.g. get the cleric to use bestow curse in conjunction with your spells. If your DM is really "cheating", the frustration you feel will be spread across to the other players who help you. Then you'll not be alone when you come out and say "What! Saved *again! With -6!"
That might help get the message across that he is not always being fair to the PCs.
Peace,
tfad
If I had to choose between a DM that doesn't fudge rolls and rolls out in the open, and one that fudges rolls, then I would choose the one that fudges.
It's a necessary evil. Rolling in secret gives the DM more control over the party's fate, so this is good for the frontline tanks, since things like crit deaths won’t happen often. On the other hand the BBEG won’t drop as quickly.
I’m getting so use to everything making their saving throws that it is becoming very disheartening. If only he gave my character a chance to shine every now and again it would have been fine.
I try to be as innovative and creative as possible to clamp down bad guys. I’m always preparing a lot of different spells and scrolls. I want the party to say, “wow, well played wizard, you really saved us a lot of trouble there”. If only once in a while.
I don’t want just a dice roll, a head nod, and a “Ok, who is next?” from the DM.
If you are going to argue IN FAVOR of DMs fudging rolls behind the screen in order to keep the game going and fun for "everyone," then why did you make this topic? Either you support DMs hand-waving things to make the game go smoothly for his benefit, or you support him playing by the rules - with some fudging - to allow things to happen for the party's benefit. Your position on the DM's job is completely antithetical to the very existence of this thread. You don't want the DM to change but you don't want to change your character concept. Well, the DM obviously won't change and you don't want him to change, so guess what's got to give.
I’m getting so use to everything making their saving throws that it is becoming very disheartening. If only he gave my character a chance to shine every now and again it would have been fine.
Have you spoken with the other players to see if they feel the same way? Maybe it's not just you.
Zo
No. I am the only caster so I dont think anybody really notices. They will probably agree though, that the BBEGs are suspiciously lucky.
But now that I think about it there is one guy in our group who has a crazy CMB build. His previous character died at level 5-6 so this one isn't that old, but in 7-8 sessions he has only managed to grapple a BBEG once.
It has turned into a running joke to see if he makes his roll on the BBEG. Soon he will join my club and give up doing things like that at the start of combat.
And saves are going to be crazy high, especially for BBEGs, at that level. What are your high saves? How affected would you be by save-or-suck spells?
If you are going to argue IN FAVOR of DMs fudging rolls behind the screen in order to keep the game going and fun for "everyone," then why did you make this topic? Either you support DMs hand-waving things to make the game go smoothly for his benefit, or you support him playing by the rules - with some fudging - to allow things to happen for the party's benefit. Your position on the DM's job is completely antithetical to the very existence of this thread. You don't want the DM to change but you don't want to change your character concept. Well, the DM obviously won't change and you don't want him to change, so guess what's got to give.If I had to choose between a DM that doesn't fudge rolls and rolls out in the open, and one that fudges rolls, then I would choose the one that fudges.
It's a necessary evil. Rolling in secret gives the DM more control over the party's fate, so this is good for the frontline tanks, since things like crit deaths won’t happen often. On the other hand the BBEG won’t drop as quickly.
I’m getting so use to everything making their saving throws that it is becoming very disheartening. If only he gave my character a chance to shine every now and again it would have been fine.
I try to be as innovative and creative as possible to clamp down bad guys. I’m always preparing a lot of different spells and scrolls. I want the party to say, “wow, well played wizard, you really saved us a lot of trouble there”. If only once in a while.
I don’t want just a dice roll, a head nod, and a “Ok, who is next?” from the DM.
I do want the DM to change!
Rolling in front of everyone is dangerous. It becomes very realistic. Our party is very lobsided power wise so this isnt going to work.
I have DMed so I know that sometimes you have to fudge rolls or add or subtract HP or damage in extreme cases.
Why do I have to choose between a DM that only hand waves for his own benefit or that of the party's? Why cant he do both?
I want a DM that rolls behind a screen so that in extreme cases he can fudge. I want this to happen for both the party and for the BBEG. He has to find a balance between having party members and BBEG's getting killed in round 1 of combat, and having combat build into an epic climax (or boring stalemate).
I want that unpredictability and I want a challenge. I don't want a DM that railroads too much or one that gambles with both sides's lives.
My solution: Stab your DM in the heart.My DM looks like John Locke. I don't want to try it.