One of my players recently tossed a "Fireball" at an enemy Mage under a "Mirror Image" spell. He argued that it'd take out all the images and injure the caster - but upon checking the spell it would seem specific attacks have to be aimed at the images to make them vanish and thus the images would remain in area-of-effect attacks. That being said ALL the images as would reflect the mage being burned by the spell and therefore the illusion is intact though the mage is still hurt.
Area of Effect attacks of other kinds would still injure the mage (assuming it caught them in their area of effect) and the damage would appear on all the images too.
Does everyone agree with this interpretation?
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Mirror image specifically states that area-of-effect spells...
When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total) are created. These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly. Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss. Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells that require a touch attack are harmlessly discharged if used to destroy a figment.[/QUOTE=PRD]
Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments.
Thank you, my player had been using the 3.5 PHB at the time when he didnt have access to the Core Rulebook. ATM it happened I didnt bring it with me and he was arguing about the wording of the 3.5 book.
Thanks for clearing it up.
Yeah, Mirror Image's language (and effects) is one of the major improvements in Pathfinder, in my opinion. The area of effect thing though has been constant since at least 1st edition.
I need a Official call
You will not get one, but you can get a bunch of unofficial thoughts, quite possibly with enough rules citations to convince you / your GM / your players / the Powers That Be.
What about attacks that are both "Area attack" AND "Targeted Attack" Hit all Targets in the area.
Can you give a specific example?
The Nuclear Resonator and the Rail Gun both say, "make a single attack roll and compare that result to the ACs of all creatures in a line ..." Decoy figments are not creatures and they don't have their own ACs (though they did have ACs in D&D 3.5). Therefore, compare the AC of any decoyed spellcaster in the area of effect to the attack roll. If it would hit, follow the Mirror Image rules and roll for a chance to hit a decoy figment instead of the real spellcaster. If it would miss by by 5 or less, then it hits a decoy figment instead of missing. That is all. Most decoy figments will be unaffected.
Yes, this answer might look like it violates common sense, but a common-sense answer depends on how we envision the mirror images. I made a more recent thread on Mirror Image only two weeks ago, Envisioning Mirror Image. Some people have good visions for which this answer makes sense.
Tough one! Here are my thoughts:
If a square in the line of fire of one of those nasties were occupied by four Tiny creatures (which is how many fit), by the "all creatures in a line" text it gets to try to hit each of them individually. Mirror image makes a bunch of figments sharing your square; it stands to reason that they+you should similarly each be targeted. That implies that the figments are each destroyed by being the target of an attack and you are potentially hit and damaged.
That's unusual, but so is getting to individually target each Tiny creature in a square. And it's unusually effective, but those are all pretty pumped weapons.
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If a square in the line of fire of one of those nasties were occupied by four Tiny creatures (which is how many fit),...
If a square were occupied by four Tiny creatures, then Magic Missile with four missiles would be able to target each one of them. By a February 2012 FAQ that is not possible with the Mirror Image decoys. If a square were occupied by four Tiny creatures and a fighter with Cleave hit one of them in a standard-action melee attack, then he would be able to Cleave to another of the Tiny creatures. By another February 2012 FAQ that is not possible with Mirror Image decoys. The FAQ answers have ruled that just because something can target real creatures, it cannot necessarily target Mirror Image decoys.
It is also rather silly for the inch-wide beam from a Nuclear Resonator or the high-velocity hyperdense shell from a Rail Gun to hit four Tiny creatures that are at four separate corners of a square. But the descriptions of technological weapons were limited by the pages of the Technology Guide, so they do not cover unusual cases. It is furthermore silly that the high-velocity hyperdense shell from a Rail Gun can travel only 2000 feet, but the game assumes that projectile weapons act like bows.
I wonder why the Nuclear Resonator, Rail Gun, and X-Laser have their own individual descriptions of hitting every creature in a line when 7 out of the 27 ranged technologocal weapons have the automatic property, which means that they can hit every creature in a line. The automatic property has a much better description of how it acts, including that it completely ignores Mirror Image decoys. The writers could have simply said that the Nuclear Resonator, Rail Gun, and X-Laser can be used only in automatic mode but consume only one charge per burst in that mode.
Automatic: This weapon can act as a semi-automatic weapon (see below), or it can fire a burst of shots with a single pull of the trigger to attack all creatures in a line. This line starts from any corner of the wielder's space and extends to the limit of the weapon's range or until it strikes a barrier it cannot penetrate. When using an automatic weapon to attack all creatures in a line, the wielder makes a separate attack roll against each creature in the line. Each creature in the line can be attacked with only one shot from each burst. Each attack roll takes a -2 penalty, and its damage cannot be modified by precision damage or damage-increasing feats such as Vital Strike. Effects that grant concealment, such as fog or smoke, or the blur, invisibility, or mirror image spells, do not affect an automatic weapon's line attack. Roll to confirm each attack roll that threatens a critical hit separately. A single burst with an automatic weapon consumes 10 charges. When taking a full-attack action with an automatic weapon, the wielder can fire as many bursts in a round as he has attacks, provided he has enough charges to make all of the attacks.
Too many Necromancers these days...Paladins are slacking this year!
Another common example would be Alchemist Bombs. If I hit, would I roll for an image, and if I hit an image, would the caster still take splash damage?
If a square were occupied by four Tiny creatures, then Magic Missile with four missiles would be able to target each one of them. By a February 2012 FAQ that is not possible with the Mirror Image decoys. If a square were occupied by four Tiny creatures and a fighter with Cleave hit one of them in a standard-action melee attack, then he would be able to Cleave to another of the Tiny creatures. By another February 2012 FAQ that is not possible with Mirror Image decoys. The FAQ answers have ruled that just because something can target real creatures, it cannot necessarily target Mirror Image decoys.
Well, that's what I get for not checking the FAQs. Thanks for the links.
Too many Necromancers these days...Paladins are slacking this year!
Another common example would be Alchemist Bombs. If I hit, would I roll for an image, and if I hit an image, would the caster still take splash damage?
Yes you roll for hitting an image. Yes, the rules for misses are followed if an image is struck.
Roll for splash damage.
Another common example would be Alchemist Bombs. If I hit, would I roll for an image, and if I hit an image, would the caster still take splash damage?Yes you roll for hitting an image. Yes, the rules for misses are followed if an image is struck.
Roll for splash damage.
Since a decoy figment has no solidity, my common sense tells me that an alchemist's bombs would fly through the figment as if it were empty air. But the actual rules call it a hit, so the bomb explodes when it hits the figment. Perhaps the figments have some solidity; for example, the figments from Shocking Image release an electrical shock when hit, so something was hit.
Let me quote the rules.
... Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss. ...
Destroying a figment on a successful attack roll is called a hit. Destroying a figment on a near miss is called a miss.
Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack. Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus. On a direct hit, an alchemist's bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist's Intelligence modifier. The damage of an alchemist's bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike). Splash damage from an alchemist bomb is always equal to the bomb's minimum damage (so if the bomb would deal 2d6+4 points of fire damage on a direct hit, its splash damage would be 6 points of fire damage). Those caught in the splash damage can attempt a Reflex save ...
We don't get to roll for splash damage, it is a fixed number. :-(
Throw Splash Weapon
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. If the target is Large or larger, you choose one of its squares and the splash damage affects creatures within 5 feet of that square. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as sneak attack).You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5. However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature. You can't target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you're aiming at the creature.
If you miss the target (whether aiming at a creature or a grid intersection), roll 1d8. This determines the misdirection of the throw, with 1 falling short (off-target in a straight line toward the thrower), and 2 through 8 rotating around the target creature or grid intersection in a clockwise direction. Then, count a number of squares in the indicated direction equal to the range increment of the throw. After you determine where the weapon landed, it deals splash damage to all creatures in that square and in all adjacent squares.
Mirror Image appears to say that the decoy figment is hit. The Thrown Splash Weapons care only about whether the target was hit or missed. I have wondered about the realism of breaking a thrown flask against a pillow-soft creature such as an ooze, but the game ignores that fringe case except for Holy Water ("A [Holy Water] flask breaks if thrown against the body of a corporeal creature, but to use it against an incorporeal creature, you must open the flask and pour the holy water out onto the target.")
Thus, I conclude that if the attack against a spellcaster with mirror images hits and targets a decoy figment, then the thrown splash weapon, such as an alchemist's bomb, does break and deal splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. The targeted figment is destroyed. If the attack is a near miss, then the figment is destroyed, but the thrown splash weapon missed and follows the miss rules.
Another common example would be Alchemist Bombs. If I hit, would I roll for an image, and if I hit an image, would the caster still take splash damage?Yes you roll for hitting an image. Yes, the rules for misses are followed if an image is struck.
Roll for splash damage.
Since a decoy figment has no solidity, my common sense tells me that an alchemist's bombs would fly through the figment as if it were empty air. But the actual rules call it a hit, so the bomb explodes when it hits the figment. Perhaps the figments have some solidity; for example, the figments from Shocking Image release an electrical shock when hit, so something was hit.
Let me quote the rules.
... Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss. ...Destroying a figment on a successful attack roll is called a hit. Destroying a figment on a near miss is called a miss.
Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack. Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus. On a direct hit, an alchemist's bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist's Intelligence modifier. The damage of an alchemist's bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike). Splash damage from...
Because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding foes, but useless for attacking them directly.
A vial hitting a figment may, as is the case with Miffor Image, disrupt the figment, but figments have no effect on the vial.
The alchemist's bomb has missed it's intended target and has struck nothing. It will strike the ground and splash as normal.
Consider extending your logic to an illusionary wall. You can throw an alchemist bomb at the illusionary wall, and make a successful attack roll to hit the illusionary wall, but the bomb will still continue onward, striking the ground with normal effects.
Hitting a figment (e.g. an illusionary wall or a mirror image) has no affect on the alchemist bomb, because the rules for figments state that figments do not affect objects. You resolve the alchemist bomb as if it missed it's intended target and struck nothing capable of affecting it.
Hitting a figment (e.g. an illusionary wall or a mirror image) has no affect on the alchemist bomb, because the rules for figments state that figments do not affect objects. You resolve the alchemist bomb as if it missed it's intended target and struck nothing capable of affecting it.But do you destroy the image?
yes
Hitting a figment (e.g. an illusionary wall or a mirror image) has no affect on the alchemist bomb, because the rules for figments state that figments do not affect objects. You resolve the alchemist bomb as if it missed it's intended target and struck nothing capable of affecting it.But do you destroy the image?
Irrelevant: The rules specific to Mirror Image are not altering the general rules for items not being affected by figments.
Irrelevant: The rules specific to Mirror Image are not altering the general rules for items not being affected by figments.
I am willing to accept that, since the Mirror Image spell never says, "hit the figment." It instead says, "destroy the figment."
However, the thrown splash weapon rules have the item affected by both hits and misses. A miss results in the thrown splash weapon splashing in another square. Some of those squares are closer to the thrower than the target was. For a regular miss, this is just throwing short of the target. But the miss due to targeting a figment occured in the square of the target.
Do we accept that an acid flask cannot hit a decoy figment, but it can bounce off of one? Or do we claim that the flask fell short despite the accurate attack roll and somehow interacted with a figment 10 feet from its landing square to destroy it? Or do we follow the word "hit" in Mirror Image despite targeting a figment, because Mirror Image already overrides several of the figment rules (that was my choice)? Or do we invent a believeable houserule?
One houserule could be that instead of rolling a d8, we could roll a d3. A roll of 2 means hitting past the target by one range increment of the throw. A roll of 1 puts it 45 degrees to the left and a roll of 3 puts it 45 degrees to the right. Thus, a miss would never veer in a bounceback direction.
Another houserule could be that the thrown splash weapon strikes the ground in that square, since the thrower did roll for a hit in that square. It does not directly hit the decoyed spellcaster, but it will splash in that square and all adjacent squares. However, that houserule has an identical effect as if it had hit the decoy.
A third houserule could be that the thrower rolls the 1d8 as usual, but the center of the eight possible landing locations is one range increment past the target. This represents that the flask made a perfect pass through an illusionary target and then kept flying onward. This rule has the advantage that a roll of 1 has the flask land at the feet of the original target, splashing his square and the adjacent squares.
A fourth houserule could be that thrown splash weapons are not affected by Mirror Image and so we never roll the chance to target a decoy.
Another houserule could be that the thrown splash weapon strikes the ground in that square, since the thrower did roll for a hit in that square. It does not directly hit the decoyed spellcaster, but it will splash in that square and all adjacent squares. However, that houserule has an identical effect as if it had hit the decoy.
This is how I've always rule.
The thing is, splash weapons deal splash damage to all adjacent creatures, hit or miss. The only house rule is going to be the 1 square scatter. The original target is going to take damage regardless.
A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. ... If you miss the target ... After you determine where the weapon landed, it deals splash damage to all creatures in that square and in all adjacent squares.
If it comes down to Mirror Image, the attacker hit the square, but missed his intended target.