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Except...even if 4e FR were rocketskate Jesus, it'd still be two books of limited relevance and the old-guard would be noisily annoyed and dominating the narrative, since WOTC isn't developing the setting beyond those books so there's no new fans to come to the defense.
Well, they *are* developing the setting beyond those books, but it's either through RPGA's Living Forgotten Realms adventures or articles available through DDI or the novels. Speaking as a fan of the Realms, the RPGA stuff only interests me if I play in it, which is pretty much never. The DDI articles are too little for the price they are asking and, in my opinion, were started up *because* of all the grumbling from older fans ("Fine, you want Ed Greenwood articles? HERE. Now will you give us money?"). And the novels? Well, I've always enjoyed the books set in the Realms and I feel it's a setting that seems to attract some of the better (if not best) writers out there. But even I'm getting tired of Drizzt now and knowing that most of the characters I loved to read about are now dead reminds me of that first Mechwarrior: Dark Age novel written by Michael Stackpole. He's still one of my all-time favorites, but I found I couldn't immerse myself into the story set after the "Jihad" as I could in his previous stories.
Well, they *are* developing the setting beyond those books, but it's either through RPGA's Living Forgotten Realms adventures or articles available through DDI or the novels. Speaking as a fan of the Realms, the RPGA stuff only interests me if I play in it, which is pretty much never. The DDI articles are too little for the price they are asking and, in my opinion, were started up *because* of all the grumbling from older fans ("Fine, you want Ed Greenwood articles? HERE. Now will you give us money?"). And the novels? Well, I've always enjoyed the books set in the Realms and I feel it's a setting that seems to attract some of the better (if not best) writers out there. But even I'm getting tired of Drizzt now and knowing that most of the characters I loved to read about are now dead reminds me of that first Mechwarrior: Dark Age novel written by Michael Stackpole. He's still one of my all-time favorites, but I found I couldn't immerse myself into the story set after the "Jihad" as I could in his previous stories.
Not to mention that it was as far set from his normal byzantine politics novels as was humanely possible. ^^
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I sure would not be interested in Paizo publishing another fantasy setting, but I'd love to see a sci-fi setting receive the Paizo treatment.
I certainly view Paizo as, to borrow from someone's observation about Kobold Quarterly, the "spiritual successor" to TSR.
A Paizo-ed (or Super Genius Games-ed) PF take on Gamma World would fit and be appreciated by us Paizo regulars, I believe.
I *love* Spelljammer. (One of my Rise of the Runelord players is, unbeknown to him, wearing a helm right now.) But a PF analog might not be a good idea currently.
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If Paizo was going to look to existing IP outside Golarian, I'm sure that they would be looking at universes that a pulp genre feel or cult fan following like Green Ronin's Thieves World and Black Company; Studio 2's Solomon Kane, and TSR's Lankhmar -- all of which are books I paid full price for as soon as they were released.
Charles R. Saunder's Alternate Africa stories? Listen to what reviewer/author Charles de Lint says about these:
...characters are disenfranchised from their birth community and forced to wander in exile—which allows for many and varied adventures—but Dossouye's story draws more heavily on traditional African mythology than the heroic fantasy wizards and monsters that Imaro often confronts.
<snip>
Mind you, I think of Saunders's work as historical adventure fantasy because the stories are set in a meticulously researched real historical background, but there is magic. Didn't know that Africa had cities and a widespread civilization in the long ago? Neither did I until I read Saunders's work and then went back and followed the path of some of his research. It's utterly fascinating stuff, but more to the point, Saunders writes an adventure story that'll keep you on the edge of the seat from the first page.
(Is Erik Mona looking at his collection and nodding knowingly? Or is he scrambling for aLibris and abebooks?)
Buckell's Nanagada? This would be awesome in all kinds of ways.
Silverberg's Majipoor?
Novik's Temeraire?
Erickson's Malazan?
Norton's Witch World?
Any of the C.L. Moore/Leigh Brackett/Kuttner stuff?
On the other hand, I would not be interested in licensed IP for some current high profile YA material (Percy Jackson? Eragon? Twilight?) Some people might, but not me.
I certainly view Paizo as, to borrow from someone's observation about Kobold Quarterly, the "spiritual successor" to TSR.
A Paizo-ed (or Super Genius Games-ed) PF take on Gamma World would fit and be appreciated by us Paizo regulars, I believe.
I *love* Spelljammer. (One of my Rise of the Runelord players is, unbeknown to him, wearing a helm right now.) But a PF analog might not be a good idea currently.
Hopefully you're on board to pledging for the SGG P20 Mod project so such takes on Gamma World and Spelljammer can be possible? ;)
I sure would not be interested in Paizo publishing another fantasy setting...
Ah, darn. I was just about to pitch them an idea. Guess I won't...
but I'd love to see a sci-fi setting receive the Paizo treatment.
On second thought...
There we go!
Since no amount of criticism of the then existing fanbase could persuade the writers to change the destruction of the Realms, I am not nearly as emphatetic to their possible plight as you are. They made their bed, now they can sleep in it.
The old fans of the FR will not come back for them.
+1
I liked Gamma World a lot, but will kill for a Renegade Legion-like setting. Seriously wish I had the cash to buy the IP to RL and the funds to support it properly. *sigh*
Educate the ill-informed. What's Renegade Legion?
The "spiritual successor" to TSR.
In the interest of full disclosure . . . FR had Kara-Tur, Maztica, the Hordelands, and Zhakara all stapled onto it under TSR (not that those were bad settings on their own, just that often these things were done without the first thought being how to fully incorporate them in a way consistent with the setting).
TSR was also the entity in charge during some of the most dramatic abuses to the Greyhawk setting.
Spelljammer and Planescape both "overwrote" aspects of the cosmology or the afterlife that existed in campaign settings before these "oversettings" came out.
TSR also presided over what is pretty much the blueprint for the Spellplague, Dragonlance's Fifth Age and its transition to the original Saga system.
They also released a series of novels concurrent with the release of a new campaign setting that immediately invalidated the products that had just come out (Dark Sun).
I'm only pointing this out to make sure we don't get out the rose colored glasses too quickly. TSR, especially in the 2nd edition days, could and did make some pretty big mistakes with their settings and how to manage them.
Renegade Legion
Set in the 69th century... heh.
I *love* Spelljammer. (One of my Rise of the Runelord players is, unbeknown to him, wearing a helm right now.) But a PF analog might not be a good idea currently.
I thought the helm was the helm of a ship, not a helmet...
I *love* Spelljammer. (One of my Rise of the Runelord players is, unbeknown to him, wearing a helm right now.) But a PF analog might not be a good idea currently.I thought the helm was the helm of a ship, not a helmet...
In Spelljammer the magic device that allows a pilot to control a spaceship is called a "helm"
In Spelljammer the magic device that allows a pilot to control a spaceship is called a "helm"
Yes, but in many cases, it was a chair affixed to the ship. There were, however, more expensive and rare versions of a helm that could be used on any ship and were portable.
So it could actually be both . . . ;)
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In the interest of full disclosure . . . FR had Kara-Tur, Maztica, the Hordelands, and Zhakara all stapled onto it under TSR (not that those were bad settings on their own, just that often these things were done without the first thought being how to fully incorporate them in a way consistent with the setting).
But let's be fair, most of the things you mentioned would take years for the PCs to get to, similar to Marco Polo going to China, Columbus to America, etc.
And while I agree they are black marks on the Realms, they didn't alter the Realms. They just used real estate on land far far away.
TSR was also the entity in charge during some of the most dramatic abuses to the Greyhawk setting.
As someone that never really got into Greyhawk I can't comment... so I won't. :)
Spelljammer and Planescape both "overwrote" aspects of the cosmology or the afterlife that existed in campaign settings before these "oversettings" came out.
Ah ha! The important part here is it's Spelljammer and Planescape. Unless you're a D&D completist, you'd probably not buy products for either setting as a Realms fan and they wouldn't effect your Realms campaign, "currently" or "in the future" when you buy new product.
TSR also presided over what is pretty much the blueprint for the Spellplague, Dragonlance's Fifth Age and its transition to the original Saga system.
You're blaming TSR for Spellplague?! You can't even blame them for the Shadow weave!
They also released a series of novels concurrent with the release of a new campaign setting that immediately invalidated the products that had just come out (Dark Sun).
Well yes they did do that.
I'm only pointing this out to make sure we don't get out the rose colored glasses too quickly. TSR, especially in the 2nd edition days, could and did make some pretty big mistakes with their settings and how to manage them.
Indeed you are. Some of TSRs mistakes were before they got too big, but a lot of them seemed to happen when they got print happy.
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I think that's rather presumptous. Paizo is not THE spiritual successor to TSR. All of the companies that produce roleplaying games that continue in that same venture of imagination's frontier are rightful heirs to that spirit. White Wolf, Steve Jackson, Wizards of the Coast and countless others have equal right to that claim.
Hehe, these days White Wolf isn't too popular with their own fans. I don't think their fans would consider them to heir to anything. :P
Which is sad, because all they're doing to them is completely butchering them all. Settings like Ravenloft, Planescape, Spelljammer, and Dragonlance need to be licensed to those that actually care about the setting's continuity and mythology. You can expect Dark Sun to get the same rape the Forgotten Realms received this year.WotC has it's own plans for RavenloftWOTC has been retooling Ravenloft themes and setting pieces for the 4e core D&D cosmology for a while now, as well.Although I don't like what they did with the Spellplague, I have to point out that it is THEIR property and they can do with it whatever they want. If Tolkien had decided that, in Return of the King, he wanted a spaceship to crash into Mt. Doom, he would be allowed to do that. If the Rolling Stones decided they wanted to do an album consisting of nothing but disco music, they can do that. And if George Lucas wants Indiana Jones to investigate extraterrestrials, so be it!*
*snip*
Yeah I am aware of that, it doesn't make what they did "right" in the sense of screwing over their loyal customers. It's all corporate, and anything from corporate is usually never right. Selling cigarettes by the mountain load to people for years without ever informing them of the health hazards for the sake of profit it brings doesn't make it right.
Am I saying D&D (and RPGs) in general should come with "Warning Labels"? Honestly, yeah, I wish they did. Not for me, but for the people that heavily invest in, say, 3rd Edition and hoping it will still be supported despite the rise of a new edition. A "This game may change completely upside-down at any moment, etc." so "grognards" won't jump ship the minute the game structure collapses and rebuilds on them. That would actually garner some respect from consumers and increase the consumer base, I believe.
Prime example, hardly anyone plays Diablo 2...but the servers still exist. When Final Fantasy 14 is released, they still plan on supporting Final Fantasy 11. I just don't understand what could be so money-wasting if WotC simply just released 1-3 3.5e books a year while pouring the rest into 4E books. A company that cared for the game and its customers would do just this and I bet you the profit margin will remain the same.
So they need to make a profit to stay in business? It's been proven time and time again it just can't happen with something as narrow as a niche as TTRPGs, the profit margins will always be slim. It's like trying to sell "Left-Handed Items" only. There will be profit, but not on the level of World of Warcraft which is what they keep trying to aspire to instead of aspiring to what they really are---Dungeons&Dragons.
And, yeah, if Tolkien ever crashed a spaceship onto Middle Earth, he'd lose thousands of fans and gain very little new ones as the old fans tear apart the book so much, no one bothers to buy it. I already see that with 4E currently.
The wrecking of the old setting was premeditated, there were tons of signals from the existing fanbase that they did not want it. Hell, for *Eberron* a change was reverted after massive fan protest. Didn't happen for the Realms, though.
Here's the funny part, Eberron was stated not to get any "major changes" at all. A few years jump in the timeline and a few other things, it would've been done. Eberron was already preset to handle 4th Edition. And yet, still, the fans cried. And they gave it to them!
So all of the old-timers hate new FR, and nobody else cares. Then, with the new publishing strategy of not splitting setting books into a sub-franchise of D&D as a whole, you don't see a new influx of people coming in to say, "Yeah, new FR is awesome!" the way you did with previous editions. So the old guard is noisily annoyed and new books aren't coming along, so nobody goes to check out the now years-old 4e FR core books to see if the changes were actually good or not.Yeah, sounds like a sound publishing strategy. Chase away your old audience, pray that a new audience will turn up and never look back. <facepalm>
Except...even if 4e FR were rocketskate Jesus, it'd still be two books of limited relevance and the old-guard would be noisily annoyed and dominating the narrative, since WOTC isn't developing the setting beyond those books so there's no new fans to come to the defense.Okay, I get the sense that you don't think that was such a hot idea by WotC, too, but why then slag people who voice their rancour over what happened as tin-foil hat conspirators? It was pretty obvious to everyone at the time that the announced changes were widely hated by the fanbase, so you can't tell me that still going ahead with them was not premeditated by WotC.
From what I've gathered, the true reason they hit the reset button was for the novelists first, game designers second. Neither felt the need to pour through Realmslore so that there would be no contradictions to whatever story they told in a novel or whatever lore they filled into the game. But it was mostly for the novelists. So are they saying most of their Realms revenue is actually from the FR novels and not the game?
But when you make a setting as detailed and shared as Forgotten Realms, it's your job and duty to make sure you don't screw things up and that you do your research. Don't they have a Realms Database? If not, that was something they should've hired someone to do long ago.
But instead they decided the Realms everyone came to love wasn't worth the trouble and so they hit the reset button. Then they had the nerve to say everything in the Grand History of the Realms book is still official. Meanwhile, the 4E mythology contradicts and doesn't match up at all with pre-4E Realms lore, no matter how hard they try. They usually end up with "Spellplague, timeline changes, everything ruptured blah blah."
They just really didn't care. On Candlekeep's forums, Ed Greenwood posted how hard he fought to stop them from changing the Realms in this way. They appreciated his concern and waved him away. When the man who's kept the Realms afloat for years comes to prophesy the doom of the setting, you should listen. But they didn't. I am very curious what they're reaping from 4E Realms, because it's impossible for it to accumulate anything after that.
Can there be a better business plan than pissing off hordes of loyal, longtime, hardcore fans? Woo-hoo!
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Am I saying D&D (and RPGs) in general should come with "Warning Labels"? Honestly, yeah, I wish they did. Not for me, but for the people that heavily invest in, say, 3rd Edition and hoping it will still be supported despite the rise of a new edition. A "This game may change completely upside-down at any moment, etc." so "grognards" won't jump ship the minute the game structure collapses and rebuilds on them. That would actually garner some respect from consumers and increase the consumer base, I believe.
This thread should contain a warning label: "contains stupidity at levels that may be toxic to humans."
So you admit your clients were negligent in not including a warning label for this thread?
No, the counter-theory is that they intended to make two FR books and then they were done, and this means that the narrative is completely dominated by the disgruntled old-school fans who would hate anything new anyway. They didn't notice the old guard objecting because the old guard did that after the books were done and out the door.
Only problem is that this is a false statement. There were early rumours and then announcements that the Realms were to be radically changed, far before the books came out. As more and more info trickled out, via the Grand History of the Realms and other venues, the protest on the forums became deafening. All *far* before the books came out.
They still didn't change a thing and refused to listen to complaints.
Contrast these statements:4e FR is terrible, and completely destroyed my interest in future Forgotten Realms books.
4e FR is terrible, and was intended to completely destroy my interest in future Forgotten Realms books.
The first is a perfectly reasonable position. The second is a tinfoil hat conspiracy theory.
Fair enough. And I never implied that in regards to the FR designers. But I think they made a terrible mistake and have been incredibly arrogant, to the point of where you *have* to wonder how they could not notice what effect their deeds were having on the existing fanbase.
What also bugs me is I can't even use the FR wiki much now days. As 4e "FR fans" keep editing the info and history to reflect then new history of the new setting.
It got old trying to use that site only to have some dude eases vast tracks of info to reflect " how it really was"
Fans of the new setting should really have started a new wiki
The alternative is to become Marvel or DC,
No, doing a Spellplague is exactly how you become a DC. Not happy with the current continuity? Crisis on Infinite Earths! Oh, wait, need another reboot? Rewrite the continuity Zero Hour! Yikes, we're still declining, how can we possibly attract new fans? I know, we can rewrite the continuity again with Infinite Crisis!
If that approach worked, DC would be stomping all over Marvel. It doesn't.
Only problem is that this is a false statement. There were early rumours and then announcements that the Realms were to be radically changed, far before the books came out. As more and more info trickled out, via the Grand History of the Realms and other venues, the protest on the forums became deafening. All *far* before the books came out.
They still didn't change a thing and refused to listen to complaints.
Wait. You're saying that the embedded fans were unhappy about an upcoming revamp of the setting?
THIS IS SHOCKING AND COMPLETELY UNPREDICTABLE
They set out on a path that was going to annoy the old guard, for good reasons.
Nice try. What I just said was that your assertion, that fans only began to complain *after* the books came out, was false. I should know, I was quite active on the FR boards at that time.
Nice try. What I just said was that your assertion, that fans only began to complain *after* the books came out, was false. I should know, I was quite active on the FR boards at that time.WOTC
DOESN'T
CARE
ABOUT
THE
OLD
GUARD.
And they were right to ignore them. They are the ever-diminishing fan following. Enslaving yourself to their whims is a short road to TSR/Marvel/DC land, both financially and artistically. At some point, you have to say screw it, the old fans will either get on board or get overwhelmed by all the people who thing the new stuff is awesome, and risk that you end up with nothing afterwards. Sometimes that risk doesn't pan out; that's why it's a risk. There are good reasons to just ignore what the entrenched fans want, reasons which are not "Well, WOTC just wants to piss off all the loyal fans."
Arguing about whether the fans were grumbling before or after the die was cast is missing the point.
I am not argueing with you about that, in case you haven't noticed. I was pointing out that your statement that the "old guard" only started to complain after the books were out is factually wrong. You are obviously not interested in acknowledging that and frantically trying to change the subject.
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They did not hit a "reset" button on the history of the Realms. They unleashed the Spellplague and then moved the calendar more than a century into the future so that novel writers who were working on existing projects could still use the Realms as it was, while others could get on board with the new setting and start runnign with them. The old history of the Realms is still valid. The spellplague did not change the past, it made a new future. It also gave the Realms a badly needed trimming on the amount of gods that needed to be kept track of. The amount of similar and overlapping powers and pantheons had gotten to the point where no scorecard could keep track of them all, especially since the Time of Troubles had suppsoedly narrowed down the major diety list to a dozen or so.
What you say needed a 'trimming', I felt was just fine. :P
As for everything else, I'm still playing in the Realms when I can. Using Pathfinder rules and pre-Spellplague (preferred).
WOTC
DOESN'T
CARE
ABOUT
THE
OLD
GUARD.
I agree. Which is why I no longer an involved with WOTC
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I agree. Which is why I no longer an involved with WOTC
WOTC
DOESN'T
CARE
ABOUT
THE
OLD
GUARD.
The funny thing is that I was still looking at Star Wars SAGA Edition books. But now they no longer have that IP. Guess the only thing they *might* get money out of me for now is Magic cards, if I decide to play again.
Yeah, funny how I used to to business only with WotC for my RP stuff only five years ago, after White Wolf slaughtered *their* on-going line for the "next best thing". ^^
Man, I hope I can stay a loyal Paizoite for a long time. :)
I want a Sean K Reynolds led Fallout RPG! Using SPECIAL though not d20
omg yes.
Sean, give me an address, my money order for fifty dollars is on its way!
If that approach worked, DC would be stomping all over Marvel. It doesn't.Neither of them stomp each other. They're both struggling publishers kept afloat with regular infusions of licensed property cash.
Just a side note, but neither DC nor Marvel are struggling, since DC is owned by Warner Brothers and Marvel was just recently bought by Disney.
Yeah, funny how I used to to business only with WotC for my RP stuff only five years ago, after White Wolf slaughtered *their* on-going line for the "next best thing". ^^
Man, I hope I can stay a loyal Paizoite for a long time. :)
I think I would express that similarly. It´s all right for WotC to ignore the old guard/grognards, and it was all right for WW at the time. That´s the way life goes - sometimes, old friendships just end because one of them (or both) changed too much, and nothing in common is retained. After a period of anger or sadness, I just leave these old friends behind as life goes on.
Stefan