OK, so my group is doing a little sandbox game and we are all creating level 5 characters.
One of the characters I want to make is a Oracle/Sorcerer/ Mystic Theurge because I really like the idea of a spontaneous divine and arcane caster combo working together hand by hand.
Now one the requirements for the Mystic Theurge Prestige class is that my character must be able to cast both 2nd level divine and arcane spells. This means my character would have to be at least level 8 before she can take the prestige class so I am trying to find a way around that so that she can take the prestige class sooner.
My idea is that she could be a Drow Noble for her race. Since Drow Noble can cast levitate at will I think that fits the bill for. Now I think that fits the criteria but I am just double checking to see if that is a legal move.
I am also wondering if there are any 3.5 feats out there that will help me with casting a 2nd level divine spell early as well if the the above is legal as well.
I am just trying to figure this out because I like the prestige class but it's spell casting requirement puts your character really behind the spell casting curve by 2 spell levels.
OK, so my group is doing a little sandbox game and we are all creating level 5 characters.
One of the characters I want to make is a Oracle/Sorcerer/ Mystic Theurge because I really like the idea of a spontaneous divine and arcane caster combo working together hand by hand.
Now one the requirements for the Mystic Theurge Prestige class is that my character must be able to cast both 2nd level divine and arcane spells. This means my character would have to be at least level 8 before she can take the prestige class so I am trying to find a way around that so that she can take the prestige class sooner.
My idea is that she could be a Drow Noble for her race. Since Drow Noble can cast levitate at will I think that fits the bill for. Now I think that fits the criteria but I am just double checking to see if that is a legal move.
I am also wondering if there are any 3.5 feats out there that will help me with casting a 2nd level divine spell early as well if the the above is legal as well.
I am just trying to figure this out because I like the prestige class but it's spell casting requirement puts your character really behind the spell casting curve by 2 spell levels.
Drow levitate is a spell like ability. Mystic Theurge requires you to be able to cast spells, so I do not believe that spell like abilities count.
Drow levitate is a spell like ability. Mystic Theurge requires you to be able to cast spells, so I do not believe that spell like abilities count.OK, so my group is doing a little sandbox game and we are all creating level 5 characters.
One of the characters I want to make is a Oracle/Sorcerer/ Mystic Theurge because I really like the idea of a spontaneous divine and arcane caster combo working together hand by hand.
Now one the requirements for the Mystic Theurge Prestige class is that my character must be able to cast both 2nd level divine and arcane spells. This means my character would have to be at least level 8 before she can take the prestige class so I am trying to find a way around that so that she can take the prestige class sooner.
My idea is that she could be a Drow Noble for her race. Since Drow Noble can cast levitate at will I think that fits the bill for. Now I think that fits the criteria but I am just double checking to see if that is a legal move.
I am also wondering if there are any 3.5 feats out there that will help me with casting a 2nd level divine spell early as well if the the above is legal as well.
I am just trying to figure this out because I like the prestige class but it's spell casting requirement puts your character really behind the spell casting curve by 2 spell levels.
True but spell like ability is still a spell and the text under the spell like abilities for Drow Nobel state
Drow nobles can cast dancing lights, deeper darkness, feather fall and levitate. The key wording here is "can cast" so the spells are still being casted.
Also I don't why I didn't see it earlier but Deeper Darkness is a 3rd divine spell.
However if that is still not the case then are there any feats out there that will let me cast higher level spells at a lower level?
True but spell like ability is still a spell and the text under the spell like abilities for Drow Nobel stateDrow nobles can cast dancing lights, deeper darkness, feather fall and levitate. The key wording here is "can cast" so the spells are still being casted.
Also I don't why I didn't see it earlier but Deeper Darkness is a 3rd divine spell.
However if that is still not the case then are there any feats out there that will let me cast higher level spells at a lower level?
Unfortunately, semantics can't save you on this one. The requirements are 2nd level Divine and 2nd level Arcane spells. Spell like abilities are neither - they get their own section on pg. 221 and function slightly differently (no components, for example).
And no, there are not feats/powers to let you do it earlier, otherwise everyone would do so.
There was a recent thread on this exact topic. It's a really bad combo - at 9th level you're casting 2nd level spells from 2 disciplines. You're always going to be 2-3 levels of spells behind a single class caster and 1-2 levels of spells behind an efficient build Mystic Theurge (Cleric/Wizard).
Edit: here's the thread http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/mysticTheurgeBuildQ
True but spell like ability is still a spell and the text under the spell like abilities for Drow Nobel stateDrow nobles can cast dancing lights, deeper darkness, feather fall and levitate. The key wording here is "can cast" so the spells are still being casted.
Also I don't why I didn't see it earlier but Deeper Darkness is a 3rd divine spell.
However if that is still not the case then are there any feats out there that will let me cast higher level spells at a lower level?
Unfortunately, semantics can't save you on this one. The requirements are 2nd level Divine and 2nd level Arcane spells. Spell like abilities are neither - they get their own section on pg. 221 and function slightly differently (no components, for example).
And no, there are not feats/powers to let you do it earlier, otherwise everyone would do so.
There was a recent thread on this exact topic. It's a really bad combo - at 9th level you're casting 2nd level spells from 2 disciplines. You're always going to be 2-3 levels of spells behind a single class caster and 1-2 levels of spells behind an efficient build Mystic Theurge (Cleric/Wizard).
Edit: here's the thread http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/mysticTheurgeBuildQ
it doesn't link and won't let me copy it into the address bar
Spell-Like Abilities: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates
it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component. A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. Some creatures actually cast arcane spells as sorcerers do, using components when required. Some creatures have both spell-like abilities and actual spellcasting power.
Actually I was just looking up that page and this is what I found. It is also not a semantics but interpretation. If it is saying in all other ways it functions just like a spell then it does.
Actually I was just looking up that page and this is what I found. It is also not a semantics but interpretation. If it is saying in all other ways it functions just like a spell then it does.If you're going to play the semantics game, one spell-like ability is not spells. Also, it's still not an arcane or a divine spell.
Well, I think that it is pretty well safe to assume that if one of those spell abilities is only casted by sorcerer and wizards it is arcane and if the other is only by clerics then it is divine and the reason it should be safe to assume this is because it is largely implied by the RPG community. However, the fact that not more than one is being cast is a pretty logical argument but then that would just mean I would have to find one or two feats that would give those extra spells. Then that raises the question do I really want to use up two feat slots that way?
Still I think there is bound to be a 3.5 spells that might me figure this out then I mean there is a whole lot of feats out there.
OK I think I found one feat that would require two other feat but it would fit the bill for the divine casting part I believe.
MAD FAITH [TAINTED]
Your depravity has twisted the connection between you
and your patron deity. You
suffer fl ashes of insight
interrupted by flashes
of madness.
Prerequisites: Ability
to cast 1st-level divine
spells, mild depravity.
Benefit: You gain
a bonus 1st-level divine
spell per day. If you have
moderate depravity, then
you also gain a 2nd-level
divine spell per day. If
you have severe depravity,
then you also gain a
3rd-level divine spell per
day. However, it takes
twice as long for you
to pray for your spells
each day.
Well, I think that it is pretty well safe to assume that if one of those spell abilities is only casted by sorcerer and wizards it is arcane and if the other is only by clerics then it is divine and the reason it should be safe to assume this is because it is largely implied by the RPG community.
this is completely and utterly wrong.
Well, I think that it is pretty well safe to assume that if one of those spell abilities is only casted by sorcerer and wizards it is arcane and if the other is only by clerics then it is divine and the reason it should be safe to assume this is because it is largely implied by the RPG community.this is completely and utterly wrong.
Whatever, just completely ignoring the fact that those abilities were probably a direct result from Loth. This is besides he point though because I given up on it anyways as it is just not worth the time so I think I am going to try and play a straight up Oracle. BTW, anyone know of any feats or templates that boost Charisma?
BTW, anyone know of any feats or templates that boost Charisma?
Just one feat...Epic Charisma from the Epic Handbook.
Lots of templates boost Charisma...Lich and Vampire for starters.
I feel for ya buddy. There's no way outside DM intervention to enter Mystic Theurge before having access to spells of the appropiate level outside a spellcasting class. For as long as the game has had PRCs' this debate has raged on. A long time ago WotC clarified things in a sage advice. I don' t have the issue of dragon magazine that also spells it out, but it does exist.
Now, if we are using the rules as we understand them then I will make the following suggestions for your build.
One level in Fey Sorc and four levels in Wave Oracle. With oracle take the fluid nature and water sight revelations. This makes you more difficult to grapple and less likely to suffer critical hits. With water sight you can cast obscuring mist and do the nastiess trick ever.
With fey bloodline you get both laughing touch and +2 to compulsion DCs'. You'll be able to dance around the battlefield making random enemies burst out laughing andNcharming enemies so as to defend you. If this doesn't constitute a morale check then you are fighting undead. In which case mist still helps you out.
Just a suggestion.
Good suggestion from Hexcaliber - just dip into Sorcerer for the flavor, and continue on your Oracular way. The Sorcerer in my Second Darkness game dipped into Cleric and it added a whole extra dimension with decent power up through currently 15th level.
Sorc/Ora/MT is a horrible combination. At 9th level you will be stuck with 2nd lvl spells, while straight casters will have access to stuff like Teleport, Plane Shift or Scry.
Horrible but survivable. I've done it with a Sorcerer/druid and still benefit the party (of 4 total no less) just fine. It took some ingenuity but heck that's why it's fun.
Eureka!
I can't believe no one thought of this earlier!
Flexible Casting
prerequisite: the ability to cast 1st level spells from two or more spell list, 4 or more hit dice or levels.
Benefits: choose up to 3 spells available on your spell list. These spells must be of different levels or from different list. You may cast each of these spells once per day by giving up total spell slots equal to twice the spells level. You may not cast a spell in this way if the spells level is greater than half your hit dice or character level.
Note: this feats benefits do not count towards meeting the prerequisites for feats or prestige classes.
So with this an 8th level character could cast a 4th, 3rd, and 2nd (or another 4th if of a different spellcasting class) by giving up some low level spells. Maybe twice is too much, what do other people think?
Eureka!
I can't believe no one thought of this earlier!
Flexible Casting
prerequisite: the ability to cast 1st level spells from two or more spell list, 4 or more hit dice or levels.
Benefits: choose up to 3 spells available on your spell list. These spells must be of different levels or from different list. You may cast each of these spells once per day by giving up total spell slots equal to twice the spells level. You may not cast a spell in this way if the spells level is greater than half your hit dice or character level.
Note: this feats benefits do not count towards meeting the prerequisites for feats or prestige classes.So with this an 8th level character could cast a 4th, 3rd, and 2nd (or another 4th if of a different spellcasting class) by giving up some low level spells. Maybe twice is too much, what do other people think?
I remember there was a feat that let a level 1 caster cast level 2 spells, and thus qualify for MT early. For some reason remember the feat only working for divine casters. It may have been a forgotten realms only feat too.
I remember there was a feat that let a level 1 caster cast level 2 spells, and thus qualify for MT early. For some reason remember the feat only working for divine casters. It may have been a forgotten realms only feat too.Eureka!
I can't believe no one thought of this earlier!
Flexible Casting
prerequisite: the ability to cast 1st level spells from two or more spell list, 4 or more hit dice or levels.
Benefits: choose up to 3 spells available on your spell list. These spells must be of different levels or from different list. You may cast each of these spells once per day by giving up total spell slots equal to twice the spells level. You may not cast a spell in this way if the spells level is greater than half your hit dice or character level.
Note: this feats benefits do not count towards meeting the prerequisites for feats or prestige classes.So with this an 8th level character could cast a 4th, 3rd, and 2nd (or another 4th if of a different spellcasting class) by giving up some low level spells. Maybe twice is too much, what do other people think?
Well there is a feat but it only worked for arcane casters and was called Precocious Apprentice and was found in Complete Arcane.
Sage put out an announcement that it didn't qualify you as casting 2nd level spells since you had a chance of success... which IMO is plain stupid... if you cast in armor (arcanely) then you only have a chance of success so you can't cast spells? In my head it was akin to saying to a mystic theurge (or any other prestige class) "Oh you used up all your second level spells for the day, so you can't cast second level spells, therefore you no longer qualify for the class today and you lose all your special bonuses from being in the class."
I do not know about a feat that allows a divine caster to cast 2nd level spells at first level, but the Precocious Apprentice feat from Complete Arcane will allow a first level arcane caster to cast a single 2nd level spell from his or her spell list once per day at first level. The feat requires an arcane caster level, and can only be taken as a 1st level character, so assuming a divine version has the same restriction it would be impossible to take them both with the same character... still the Precocious Apprentice feat should let ItoSaithWebb take mystic theurge at the 6th character level (suspect Sage advice rulings aside).
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There is a feat on page 181 in the book Complete Arcane, that allows a first level arcane caster to cast a single 2nd level spell(giving them a spell slot for it too), as long as you succed on a Dc8 Spellcraft check(may need to be changed in PF). When you can cast 2nd level spells, you keep the spell slot and no longer need to make the Spellcraft check to use the spell. You also gain a +2 on all Spellcraft checks when you select this feat.
Pre-reqs: Arcane Caster level 1, Int or Cha15, must be first level.
Practiced Spellcaster is the feat you're thinking of and no it officially did not let you enter prestige classes early.
Though a few people did state in the WotC forums that they'd allow it in their game.
Practiced Spellcaster is the feat you're thinking of and no it officially did not let you enter prestige classes early.
Though a few people did state in the WotC forums that they'd allow it in their game.
Ninja'd you, and db3... and it's not, he's thinking of precocious apprentice which works for arcane casters, and is on page 181 of the complete arcane.
Ninja'd you, and db3... and it's not, he's thinking of precocious apprentice which works for arcane casters, and is on page 181 of the complete arcane.Practiced Spellcaster is the feat you're thinking of and no it officially did not let you enter prestige classes early.
Though a few people did state in the WotC forums that they'd allow it in their game.
Yeah, preccocious apprentice was the one I was thinking of. People were using it in FR to qualify for the Hathran prestege class(similar to a MT, but with more special abilities), before the official ruling came out.
I guess I got ninja'd. Holy crap. Also, I need to amend that feat I wrote up.
Whenever you gain a level you may exchange one of the three spells for any other.
Bear in mind, at third level you could take the feat and plan ahead by picking spells you can't even cast. Call it an investment. Then, when you have enough hit dice/levels you'll be ready to go. This feat works best with monsters like the Raksasha. Dabble in anther spell caster class and have access to spells that can threaten the players.
Should I post this feat somewhere else to get feedback and suggestions? I don't want to go threadjacking or anything.
Hmmm well then it seems if I took both precocious apprentice and mad faith then I should be able to at level 4 be able to take MT. So I use to of my character's feats, take a moderate depravity, select my spells from my spell caster lists and I would be good to go. At level 4 I would be able to take MT which would finally make a efficient MT. Thanks for all the help guys, especially after I gave up.
MAD FAITH [TAINTED] from heroes of Horror
Your depravity has twisted the connection between you and your patron deity. You suffer flashes of insight interrupted by flashes of madness.Prerequisites: Ability to cast 1st-level divine spells, mild depravity.
Benefit: You gain a bonus 1st-level divine spell per day. If you have
moderate depravity, then you also gain a 2nd-level divine spell per day. If you have severe depravity, then you also gain a 3rd-level divine spell per day. However, it takes twice as long for you to pray for your spells
each day.
Precocious Apprentice [General] Complete arcana Your master has shown you the basics of a spell beyond the normal limits of your experience and training.
Prerequisites: Spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 15, arcane caster
level 1st.
Benefit: Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell. Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells, you must succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to successfully cast this spell; if you fail, the spell is miscast to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this level is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances. When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would.
Finally, you gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks. Special: You can take this feat only as a 1st-level character.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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ItoSaithWebb,
Because you're posting here, as opposed to the 3.5 forums, I presume that the campaign is Pathfinder rather than D&D. Your desire to play an Oracle confirms this.
I would ask your GM if he's cool with you taking feats from splat books for a different game system. In particular, Heroes of Horror and its horror / depravity systems strike me as counter to the general tenor of the Golarion campaign setting. (I'm trying to imagine the effects on the populace of Geb, Cheliax, or Ustalav, if subject to the taint and depravity systems.)
ItoSaithWebb,
Because you're posting here, as opposed to the 3.5 forums, I presume that the campaign is Pathfinder rather than D&D. Your desire to play an Oracle confirms this.
I would ask your GM if he's cool with you taking feats from splat books for a different game system. In particular, Heroes of Horror and its horror / depravity systems strike me as counter to the general tenor of the Golarion campaign setting. (I'm trying to imagine the effects on the populace of Geb, Cheliax, or Ustalav, if subject to the taint and depravity systems.)
Ya we are playing pathfinder with 3.5 as a supplements. Oh and my GM is fine with me taking these feats considering that I am the GM. =)
We are doing a sandbox arena game thing so that I have a chance to work on more adventures during the week. Everyone is down for this and is ready to beat each other down to a bloody pulp. We all start at level 5 with the characters we build. For this sandbox arena game up to four flaws are allowed as well. This is just for fun and doesn't affect our normal game rules, its just for this sandbox.
My build with this so far with this character is: Oracle2/Sorcerer2/Mystic Thuegre 1, Race: Drow Noble, Flaws: Murky Eye, Pathetic Int, Pathetic Wis, Moderately Depraved: Deranged, Feats: Mad Faith, Precocious Apprentice, Heroic Surge, Practiced Spell Caster X 2, Toughness.
This build will then allow me to cast both Oracle and Sorcerer spells as a 6th level caster, because practiced spell caster counts total HD so with MT as my 5th level it already allows me to casts as a 5th level caster from both Sorcerer and Oracle but then you take the ability from MT that adds 1 spell casting level to both for a 6th level caster.
However there is one thing with this build that I am unsure about. And that is the about the single revelation that the Oracle would have and the single bloodline power that the sorcerer would have. I know that she would not gain any extra revelations or blood line powers but would the growth of that single power and revelation continue to grow with caster level or stay put?
Whatever, just completely ignoring the fact that those abilities were probably a direct result from Loth. This is besides he point though because I given up on it anyways as it is just not worth the time so I think I am going to try and play a straight up Oracle. BTW, anyone know of any feats or templates that boost Charisma?
Spellcasting prodigy from the players guide to Faerun lets you treat one ability as 2 higher for bonus spells...
I'm actually pursuing this same build. To qualify for MT early I'm going to be taking the Alternate Source Spell metamagic feat from Dragon Magazine 325. This will allow me to take my first level of MT at level 6. The feat works by allowing a caster to change the nature of a spell cast; from divine to arcane or vice versa.
I'm actually pursuing this same build. To qualify for MT early I'm going to be taking the Alternate Source Spell metamagic feat from Dragon Magazine 325. This will allow me to take my first level of MT at level 6. The feat works by allowing a caster to change the nature of a spell cast; from divine to arcane or vice versa.
Hmmm well I don't get Dragon Magazine anymore. I think I am like 200 issues behind but sounds interesting. Sounds like you are swamping one of your arcane spells for a divine.
Hmmm well I don't get Dragon Magazine anymore. I think I am like 200 issues behind but sounds interesting. Sounds like you are swamping one of your arcane spells for a divine.
Exactly. By changing a 2nd level arcane spell into a 2nd level divine spell (or vice versa) one can meet the prerequisites for the prestige class. The feat itself necessitates the ability to cast both arcane and divine spells however, so it requires at least one level in the secondary class. So either Sorcerer 4/Oracle 1 or Oracle 4/Sorcerer 1 qualifies for Mystic Theurge. Not as optimal as a wizard/cleric build, but still viable.
OK, so my group is doing a little sandbox game and we are all creating level 5 characters.
One of the characters I want to make is a Oracle/Sorcerer/ Mystic Theurge because I really like the idea of a spontaneous divine and arcane caster combo working together hand by hand.
Now one the requirements for the Mystic Theurge Prestige class is that my character must be able to cast both 2nd level divine and arcane spells. This means my character would have to be at least level 8 before she can take the prestige class so I am trying to find a way around that so that she can take the prestige class sooner.
My idea is that she could be a Drow Noble for her race. Since Drow Noble can cast levitate at will I think that fits the bill for. Now I think that fits the criteria but I am just double checking to see if that is a legal move.
I am also wondering if there are any 3.5 feats out there that will help me with casting a 2nd level divine spell early as well if the the above is legal as well.
I am just trying to figure this out because I like the prestige class but it's spell casting requirement puts your character really behind the spell casting curve by 2 spell levels.
people tried this in 3.5 and it didn't work then, need to reword it to levels of the class. One of easiest fixes to the whole MT issue, is that says " cast 2nd level arcane/divine spells" first off this creates problem of people trying to cheese with spell like abilities ect, no offense ment its trying to circumvent problem with the class i realize that, but still cheesing =P. So how do we get around this problem? well if your keeping core isn't a way to fix it, what i did for my group was a real easy fix.
I simply did this to the requirement " you must have 3 levels in an arcane class, and 3 levels in a divine class " what does this do? changes nothing integrally, what does is insure that a sorcerer or a wizard are taking SAME levels to achieve the class. 6 total levels, sure could do paladin or bard or some such none sense but surely wouldn't work as well.
but i digress, having a spell like ability that simulates a spell DOES not mean can cast spells of that level or are even casting the spell. You can not take some weird race has some spell like power simulates a second level spell and assume it counts because it doesn't. Spell like abilities ARE not same as casting actual spell. My advice, go to your DM explain what i said above see if change requirement...not going to effect your over all performance, just gain class at same time as a wizard/cleric still be level behind then as far as spells go and see what they say.
Edit: further prove my point is a key line need to read here from PF bestiary '
Spell-like abilities are magical
and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so
have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components).
key words here are " work like spells THOUGH ARE NOT SPELLS" basically means simulate or emulate spells but aren't spells and don't qualify as a spell even if mechanically act like one.
OK, so my group is doing a little sandbox game and we are all creating level 5 characters.
One of the characters I want to make is a Oracle/Sorcerer/ Mystic Theurge because I really like the idea of a spontaneous divine and arcane caster combo working together hand by hand.
Now one the requirements for the Mystic Theurge Prestige class is that my character must be able to cast both 2nd level divine and arcane spells. This means my character would have to be at least level 8 before she can take the prestige class so I am trying to find a way around that so that she can take the prestige class sooner.
My idea is that she could be a Drow Noble for her race. Since Drow Noble can cast levitate at will I think that fits the bill for. Now I think that fits the criteria but I am just double checking to see if that is a legal move.
I am also wondering if there are any 3.5 feats out there that will help me with casting a 2nd level divine spell early as well if the the above is legal as well.
I am just trying to figure this out because I like the prestige class but it's spell casting requirement puts your character really behind the spell casting curve by 2 spell levels.
people tried this in 3.5 and it didn't work then, need to reword it to levels of the class. One of easiest fixes to the whole MT issue, is that says " cast 2nd level arcane/divine spells" first off this creates problem of people trying to cheese with spell like abilities ect, no offense ment its trying to circumvent problem with the class i realize that, but still cheesing =P. So how do we get around this problem? well if your keeping core isn't a way to fix it, what i did for my group was a real easy fix.
I simply did this to the requirement " you must have 3 levels in an arcane class, and 3 levels in a divine class " what does this do? changes nothing integrally, what does is insure that a sorcerer or a wizard are taking SAME levels to achieve the class. 6 total levels, sure could do paladin or bard...
Listen I understand where you are coming from even though I don't agree it doesn't matter but I really think that you should have taken a look at the rest of the thread because we got around it.
Actually i stand corrected, after reading a line from forums and checking page.
Page 72 of complete arcane clearly states, spell and spell like abilities, can indeed qualify you for prc requirements. " a prc requiring a must know X spell, can be qualified by a spell like ability or invocation that simulates that spell" being an offical book i cant really dispute this. Seems like, this is offical and all sorry i guess i was wrong =)
Actually i stand corrected, after reading a line from forums and checking page.
Page 72 of complete arcane clearly states, spell and spell like abilities, can indeed qualify you for prc requirements. " a prc requiring a must know X spell, can be qualified by a spell like ability or invocation that simulates that spell" being an offical book i cant really dispute this. Seems like, this is offical and all sorry i guess i was wrong =)
NP, there are so many rules out there that I think the only one's who know them all are the one's with no life. Actually I think then that my build then works really well because the reqs require spells as plural so with the Mad faith + Precarious Spellcaster + Drow Noble abilities all stack together to be able to pull off this combo very efficiently.
Now bear with me for the sandbox arena my group is dueling in we are allowing up to four flaws to be taken.
So with that out of the way this is my build.
Oracle 1/ Sorcerer 1/ Mystic Theurge 3
Race: Drow Noble
Flaws:
Murky Eye, Pathetic Wis -2 Wisdom
Pathetic Int -2 to Intel
Moderately depraved: Deranged
-2 on Int skill checks
Feats:
Mad Faith (Grants 2nd level divine spell
spell slot, but requires 2x prayer time)
Precocious Apprentice ( 2nd level spell gained
plus 2nd level spell slot, DC 8 SC to cast)
Heroic Surge
Practiced Spell Caster X2
Toughness ( 3HP + 1 per HD beyond 3
*Bonus feat Eschew Materials
Only draw back is I have to be evil. I am sure there is another faith feat out there that would let me get passed that bump as well.
Now I just have to pick a good blood line and mystery combo.
Actually i stand corrected, after reading a line from forums and checking page.
Page 72 of complete arcane clearly states, spell and spell like abilities, can indeed qualify you for prc requirements. " a prc requiring a must know X spell, can be qualified by a spell like ability or invocation that simulates that spell" being an offical book i cant really dispute this. Seems like, this is offical and all sorry i guess i was wrong =)
"Must know X spell" is not "must be able to cast divine and/or arcane spells of a certain level". As far as Pathfinder is concerned, Complete Arcane is a 'compatible' book, not an 'official' book. If you used this interpretation, a Drow Noble could qualify for Eldritch Knight at 1st level...and that's all kinds of broken.
The Mystic Theurge is supposed to be hard to qualify for - hard as in 'ew, I'm gonna suck for a while'. OTOH, once you get 5-6 levels of it, you definitely don't suck - you're the most versatile caster possible.
Actually i stand corrected, after reading a line from forums and checking page.
Page 72 of complete arcane clearly states, spell and spell like abilities, can indeed qualify you for prc requirements. " a prc requiring a must know X spell, can be qualified by a spell like ability or invocation that simulates that spell" being an offical book i cant really dispute this. Seems like, this is offical and all sorry i guess i was wrong =)
"Must know X spell" is not "must be able to cast divine and/or arcane spells of a certain level". As far as Pathfinder is concerned, Complete Arcane is a 'compatible' book, not an 'official' book. If you used this interpretation, a Drow Noble could qualify for Eldritch Knight at 1st level...and that's all kinds of broken.
The Mystic Theurge is supposed to be hard to qualify for - hard as in 'ew, I'm gonna suck for a while'. OTOH, once you get 5-6 levels of it, you definitely don't suck - you're the most versatile caster possible.
Actually no it doesn't automatically qualify you to pick it up at first level because first you would have to be level 2 because having two level 1 classes makes a 2nd level character and as pointed out earlier it has to be spells not spell. So you have to be able to cast at least two 2nd level spells from divine and arcane. That is why the feat combo is needed as well.
Also, perhaps because I was tired but I also forgot about the skill requirements. You need 3 ranks in the Knowledge skills. This means that you have to be at least character level 3 before you can pick up Mystic Theurge.
So my above build, although the feats and the race is right for the qualification the levels but I forgot about the skill req, so it should be at least like this.
Oracle 2/ Sorcerer 2/ Mystic Theurge 1
0r
Oracle 2/ Sorcerer 1/ Mystic Theurge 2
Or
if I want to just make the class a little tougher
Oracle 1/ Sorcerer 1/ Some type of melee 1 /Mystic Theurge 1
So no one can pick up Mystic Theurge no matter what till at least character level 3.
Dang can't believe I forgot about that, guess I got all caught up in the feat and spell like abilities. Got some re working to do now.
OK so now my build will either be this because I need at least 1 more level after the two different caster levels before I can take MT.
Fighter 1/Oracle 1/ Sorcerer 1/ Mystic Theurge 2
Race: Drow Noble
Flaws:
Murky Eye, Pathetic Wis -2 Wisdom
Pathetic Int -2 to Intel
Moderately depraved: Deranged
-2 on Int skill checks
Feats:
Mad Faith (Grants 2nd level divine spell
spell slot, but requires 2x prayer time)
Precocious Apprentice ( 2nd level spell gained
plus 2nd level spell slot, DC 8 SC to cast)
Heroic Surge
Practiced Spell Caster X2
Toughness ( 3HP + 1 per HD beyond 3
*Bonus feat Eschew Materials
This might be good because I would get a bonus fighter feat and would have tougher HP.
or
Barbarian 1/Oracle 1/ Sorcerer 1/ Mystic Theurge 2
Race: Drow Noble
Flaws:
Murky Eye, Pathetic Wis -2 Wisdom
Pathetic Int -2 to Intel
Moderately depraved: Deranged
-2 on Int skill checks
Feats:
Mad Faith (Grants 2nd level divine spell
spell slot, but requires 2x prayer time)
Precocious Apprentice ( 2nd level spell gained
plus 2nd level spell slot, DC 8 SC to cast)
Heroic Surge
Practiced Spell Caster X2
Toughness ( 3HP + 1 per HD beyond 3
*Bonus feat Eschew Materials
Faster movement and even tougher HP.
So no one can pick up Mystic Theurge no matter what till at least character level 3.
No one should be able to pick up ANY prestige class until 6th level. This appears to be part of the design intent of PrC's. All of the stock ones in the PRPG aren't accessible until 6th level at a minimum. After all, a 'prestige class' isn't very prestigious if you can take it almost right away. Since you're playing at 5th level, it's likely nobody else can take a PrC without going through similar rules loopholes...it's not really fair to the other players. I mean, you can't pull these kinds of tricks to get +6 BaB (Duelist, Arcane Archer) or 7 ranks of Knowledge skills (Loremaster) by 5th level.
Oh, and you'd need to be 4th level the way you're doing this - b/c you need 3 ranks in both Knowledge Arcana and Religion BEFORE you enter the PrC.
Also note that the PRPG suggests that if you're allowing Drow (never mind Drow Nobles) as PC races, that you allow other (normal) races to start one level higher to compensate for the increased power of the Drow. So if you're playing Drow Noble 5th level character, you really should have the other players be 6th-7th level to compensate (since you're DM'ing). Or you could just let them all be Drow Nobles - Drow Nobles really are VERY strong character races.
So no one can pick up Mystic Theurge no matter what till at least character level 3.No one should be able to pick up ANY prestige class until 6th level. This appears to be part of the design intent of PrC's. All of the stock ones in the PRPG aren't accessible until 6th level at a minimum. After all, a 'prestige class' isn't very prestigious if you can take it almost right away. Since you're playing at 5th level, it's likely nobody else can take a PrC without going through similar rules loopholes...it's not really fair to the other players. I mean, you can't pull these kinds of tricks to get +6 BaB (Duelist, Arcane Archer) or 7 ranks of Knowledge skills (Loremaster) by 5th level.
Oh, and you'd need to be 4th level the way you're doing this - b/c you need 3 ranks in both Knowledge Arcana and Religion BEFORE you enter the PrC.
Also note that the PRPG suggests that if you're allowing Drow (never mind Drow Nobles) as PC races, that you allow other (normal) races to start one level higher to compensate for the increased power of the Drow. So if you're playing Drow Noble 5th level character, you really should have the other players be 6th-7th level to compensate (since you're DM'ing). Or you could just let them all be Drow Nobles - Drow Nobles really are VERY strong character races.
You are correct about the level 4 and that was merely mis communication on my part. I had meant was after level 3 which if you looked at my proposed builds does fit the bill for that criteria.
As far as the whole needing to be level 6 thing, is just wrong because you are generalizing.
As far as no one should anything bit; that just leads to unhappiness because a " Should " is a unnecessary expectation which is always a let down in the end. There is nothing in the rules that states that a prestige class needing the character to be level 6 before and this is only your interpretation. I won't disagree that this isn't a trend but it is not a standard.
As for the Drow Noble thing, I won't disagree that it is a powerful race and yes as FM for this sandbox I am allowing everyone to pick it if they want it.
In fact one of my players wants to do a Drow Noble Summoner and I gave the OK.
Is this manipulation of the rules or exploiting a loop hold? Hell yes!
Do I care for this instance? Hell no! Because this arena thing is just a sandbox thing to give me time for writing up the main adventures so we are just having a bit of fun.
Now if during an actual campaign, I had a player who wanted to play a Drow Noble I would give them a chance but it would work like this. Write her up as a Drow and finish all character creation the player then will roll a d20 and if it came up on a 1 then the Drow is now a Drow noble.
The first sentence about Drow Nobles is that 1 out of 20 are a noble.
So please don't get upset about this because it is only just a game.
As for the Drow Noble thing, I won't disagree that it is a powerful race and yes as FM for this sandbox I am allowing everyone to pick it if they want it.
In fact one of my players wants to do a Drow Noble Summoner and I gave the OK.
My point was that if Drow Nobles are allowed, NOT choosing a Drow Noble (especially at a low level like 5th) is pretty much suicide in an arena setting (assuming they're fighting each other). The noble's spell-like abilities and spell resistance and improved stats make them the clear-and-away best choice. Non-drow would be steamrolled.
Unless...you balance the choices by giving the non-Drow Nobles some good stuff - better equipment or an extra level (or two).
If you are going to ask the DM to allow third party material into the standard pathfinder game, then it might be simpler to just ask if you can qualify for the MT class by having 3 class levels of oracle and sorcerer, instead of "2nd level spells".
The prerequisites are designed to be as general as possible, so you can apply it to classes from third party books, or from the future, that the designers of the prestige class aren't currently thinking of.
Ultimately, it's supposed to be entered by 7th level, with two different casting classes.
As a DM, I'd allow an Oracle 3, Sorcerer 3 enter the Mystic Theurge class. The class has a hard enough time as it is.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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One aspect of the Mystic Theurge is the restriction that only the spells of the base classes improve, no other class abilities.
For Oracular Mystic Theurges, this means that they only get the revelation from 1st Level. More dire, they never ameliorate their Oracle curse.
It's like sugar-coated breakfast cereal. You'd better enjoy the flavor of it, because it's low on anything of value.
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Actually i stand corrected, after reading a line from forums and checking page.
Page 72 of complete arcane clearly states, spell and spell like abilities, can indeed qualify you for prc requirements. " a prc requiring a must know X spell, can be qualified by a spell like ability or invocation that simulates that spell" being an offical book i cant really dispute this. Seems like, this is offical and all sorry i guess i was wrong =)
"Must know X spell" is not "must be able to cast divine and/or arcane spells of a certain level". As far as Pathfinder is concerned, Complete Arcane is a 'compatible' book, not an 'official' book. If you used this interpretation, a Drow Noble could qualify for Eldritch Knight at 1st level...and that's all kinds of broken.
The Mystic Theurge is supposed to be hard to qualify for - hard as in 'ew, I'm gonna suck for a while'. OTOH, once you get 5-6 levels of it, you definitely don't suck - you're the most versatile caster possible.
This should end the discussion in FAVOR of using SLA to qualify. Straight from the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook Frequently Asked Questions (which is the errata ruling over the books or anything else)
Yes.
For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.
Edit 7/12/13: The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6). Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes. If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 06/06/13
Actually i stand corrected, after reading a line from forums and checking page.
Page 72 of complete arcane clearly states, spell and spell like abilities, can indeed qualify you for prc requirements. " a prc requiring a must know X spell, can be qualified by a spell like ability or invocation that simulates that spell" being an offical book i cant really dispute this. Seems like, this is offical and all sorry i guess i was wrong =)
"Must know X spell" is not "must be able to cast divine and/or arcane spells of a certain level". As far as Pathfinder is concerned, Complete Arcane is a 'compatible' book, not an 'official' book. If you used this interpretation, a Drow Noble could qualify for Eldritch Knight at 1st level...and that's all kinds of broken.
The Mystic Theurge is supposed to be hard to qualify for - hard as in 'ew, I'm gonna suck for a while'. OTOH, once you get 5-6 levels of it, you definitely don't suck - you're the most versatile caster possible.
This should end the discussion in FAVOR of using SLA to qualify. Straight from the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook Frequently Asked Questions (which is the errata ruling over the books or anything else)
** spoiler omitted **...
This topic's three years old, the FAQ wasn't around back then.