While I've made a few comments in various threads, a few of the things I have to say about this class haven't been brought up yet. Therefore I am posting this overview. This will not be a "how I would fix" post. It will just be my observations on what doesn't work in my eyes and why.
Upon initial glance I liked the class. No dead levels, 6 levels of spell casting, medium BAB, 2 good saves - a solid and promising start.
Before I go further, I would like to go into the question of BAB and spell levels. For a hybrid martial caster there are 2 approaches - medium BAB with at least 6 levels of spells, or full BAB and 4 levels of spells. Both are valid and have their attraction. The title of this book is Ultimate Magic, and as such one would expect a base class presented in it to be focused on magic. To me this means 6 or more spell levels as opposed to 4. This pretty much eliminates the full BAB option. A more martial focused full BAB 4 spell level class would be more appropriate to Ultimate Combat, and while I fully believe there is a niche to be filled by a full BAB 4 spell level arcane casting class, I'm hoping that it would be a secondary consideration for Ultimate Combat as I am holding out my hopes for a true finesse/swashbuckling martial class if there is only one new base class added.
Getting back to the Magus. I'm no fan of 2 skill points per level (strongly believe in the minimum of 4), but seeing that the magus is an intelligence based caster I'm less bothered by it. The class skill list is about what one would expect, no real surprises there.
The choice of Fort and Will for the good saves is also pretty standard for a martial/arcane hybrid.
On the subject of weapon and armor proficiencies, the magus is proficient with all simple and martial weapons as well as light armor, but not shields. This fits with the martial aspect of the character. Of note however is that unlike most arcane casters, the magus can cast magus spells in light armor without rolling arcane spell failure chance. This is a key feature to martial/arcane hybrid classes. While light armor may seem like a limiting factor to a martial character at first, the magus addresses this issue as we will see later.
The spell casting progression is fine, and truth be told I prefer it as I am no fan of 7-9th level spells (I consider them the most game changing), but personal bias aside it is still solid, especially for a hybrid.
Jumping over to the spell list, I will admit that the magic system is not my strong suit and my comments on it will therefore be limited. I will also admit that I am not familiar with the APG spells, so I can only presume they are on par with the core spells listed. The selection looks like a good mix of buffs, defense, battlefield control, and damage dealers, with a couple of utility spells that melee types rely on at higher levels. This is much better than the some of the 3.5 attempts that saw the hybrid limited to evocation only, which prove far too limiting. The general lack of touch ranged offensive spells on this list has been noted by Jason as due to new spells under development. As this is not the final spell list I will give the benefit of the doubt that the final spell list will have this covered. The only other point about the spell list that I wish to comment on is the polymorph type spells that were included. Some have questioned them being on the list, transforming into a more powerful form to enter physical combat is a pretty standard magical trope, so even a hybrid class should retain the option.
While taking general overview, I'd like to touch on the subject of MAD. For those who are unfamiliar with the term it stands for Multiple Attribute Dependence. Intelligence is the key casting stat and you want to get at least a 16 to be able to cast you highest level spells, but more is always better since it boosts save DCs, and caster level checks to cast defensively and penetrate spell resistance. In addition as a melee character you also want a good Strength for to hit and damage bonus, and a good Dexterity for AC, initiative, and reflex saves, good Constitution for HP and fortitude saves. Wisdom also benefits your will saves so you may want to give that some consideration as well. Charisma gives you the least benefit. Having more key attributes that you want high is always problematic when building a character.
Seeing as this is getting to magazine article length I will split it into multiple posts. Next up: the meat of the discussion - the class feature special abilities.
Picking up from my previous post I will now delve into the meat of the class - the class feature special abilities. This is where a class is truly defined.
The first thing to note is the lack of dead levels. Every level grants you something. This is always an auspicious start. At first glance, everything fits thematically and supports the flavor of a martial arcanist. There are options for customization in the bonus feats and the magus arcana which keeps with the design philosophy of Pathfinder. Lets see how well they hold up under scrutiny and a mechanical breakdown.
First of you get spellstrike. This is the only ability you get at 1st level aside from cantrips. What it grants you is the ability to deliver a touch spell with your melee weapon. Sounds good, doesn't it? Let's take a closer look, shall we. Touch AC is generally lower than normal AC since it ignores armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses. At first level this is usually about a 2-4 point difference, but it grows to a considerable gap at later levels. You are in essence making it markedly harder to hit your target to deliver your touch spell. In addition, since casting the spell is a standard action (which for touch ranged spells includes a free touch attack) and attacking with your weapon is also a standard action, you cannot make the attack with your melee weapon in the same round you cast the spell (unless you have the 2nd level spell combat ability which I will get into next). Now, let's look at what you gain from this ability. The most obvious gain is if you miss with your initial free touch attack, you can use regular melee attacks and deliver the touch spell instead of choosing between the two. When you deliver the spell through a melee attack, you also get to add your normal melee damage. In addition you get to use your weapon's critical threat range (although the spell effect only receives a x2 multiplier regardless of the crit multiplier of the weapon damage). Additionally, if you have a weapon that grants you reach such as a whip (spellcasting still requires 1 free hand for somatic components, so 2 handed weapons are problematic), you gain reach with your touch spells (note that the whip is an exotic weapon and will require a feat to use effectively). This means that about a half dozen weapons gain you a benefit when using spell strike.
Let's take a look at that again:
You get to hit a higher AC.
You gain economy of action if you miss your initial touch attack.
You gain reach if using a whip.
You gain an increased threat range if using one of a half dozen weapons.
This ability works in your favor only in a limited number of edge cases. Otherwise it is actually a penalty. Every other base class gets more benefit out of their first level ability and in the case of the magus, this situation doesn't really get any better. This ability either needs to be reworked to be beneficial more often, additional first level abilities need to be added to bring 1st level up to par.
Moving on to second level we come to spell combat. This is the big move toward melee/spellcasting synergy. As a full round action you get to cast a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action (or less) and make all of your iterative melee attacks. Pretty big, especially for a 2nd level ability, but it comes at a price. You must cast defensively at a -2 penalty and take a -4 penalty to hit on all of your attacks that round. Still it is a huge jump on economy of action, especially from 8th level on when you start getting iterative attacks. At low levels when every +1 counts, this is pretty rough.
I'm going to jump ahead here to improved spell combat (8th level) and greater spell combat (14th level), as they are progressions of this ability. At 8th level when you get your first iterative attack you also get improved spell combat which reduces the penalties to -2 on all attacks that round and -0 to your concentration check. This really opens up the ability and makes it look a lot more attractive. At 14th level, just before you get your third iterative attack, greater spell combat drops your attack penalty to -0. Not a huge gain, but it is something.
Getting back to the basic 2nd level spell combat ability, there is much debate over the penalties. For a class focused on combining spell casting and melee a penalty to casting in melee (casting defensively) seems counter intuitive. The penalty to attack is also quite harsh at low levels, especially for a class without full BAB. Is this balanced? There has been a lot of number crunching done that I won't get into. The fact is that you are getting a bigger jump on the action economy than an additional attack like two weapon fighting or flurry of blows at low level. There is no denying that this is a powerful ability and if it remains at 2nd level should incur an appropriate penalty. Were this ability to be mover to a later level I would definitely say the penalty was harsher than necessary.
Is this penalty overwhelming? Not necessarily, but overcoming it is a penalty all it's own, and an unsavory one - the dreaded feat tax. With a human (bonus feat at 1st level) I can take Combat Casting (+4 to casting defensively) and Arcane Strike (+1 to attack and damage), which combined with a masterwork weapon (+1 to hit) which I should easily be able to afford by level 2. I've canceled out the -2 to casting defensively and cut the -4 to hit in half. At third level I can pick up Weapon Focus for another +1 to hit. Please note however that this only works when playing a human for the bonus feat at first level. Another drawback to this approach is Weapon Finesse. If your Dex is higher than your Str you are likely to want this. Weapon Finesse only works toward offsetting the penalties if your Dex mod is at least 2 higher than you Str mod. Otherwise the additional +1 to damage from Arcane Strike is a better choice.
Next up: Part 3 - Magus Arcana
And so beings part 3 of my in depth look at the magus. Here we look at the primary set of customization options for the class, the magus arcana.
The magus arcana are a set of player selected special abilities that are granted one each every 3 levels beginning at 3rd for a total of 6. some of the arcana have level prerequisites and as of the initial playtest there are 16 to choose from with 7 available starting at 3rd, 3 more at 6th, and 2 more each at 9th, 12th, and 15th. Overall a good idea. Individual arcana cannot be selected more than once except as noted. Now let's look at each of the arcana individually and see how well they hold up.
First is arcane accuracy, a swift action that lets you expend a prepared spell to gain an insight bonus to hit till the end of your turn. Compared to the arcane strike feat I mentioned earlier, this is a poor use of a swift action. It is limited to the number of spells you expend and only lasts for the duration of your action, plus it burns a spell instead of casting it. On the plus side it tops out at +6 (using a 6th level spell) and has an increase progression of every 3 levels. Meanwhile arcane strike cost 1 feat slot, is usable all day, grants a bonus to damage as well as to hit and causes your weapon to be derate as magic for overcoming spell resistance. It increases at a rate of +1 for every 5 caster levels you have up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
Next is broad study, the arcana for multiclassing to other casting classes. It allows you to use spellstrike and spell combat with spells from one other casting class of your choice (but does not allow you to ignore arcane spell failure for casting spells from other classes while wearing armor). It does not grant you spells from that class and only works if you multiclass into a spellcasting class. One of the better arcana, especially if concerns about spellstrike and spell combat are addressed.
Concentrate is a once per day ability that allows you to reroll a concentration check at a +4 bonus (you must take the result to the reroll). I'm not a fan of reroll or once per day abilities, but the concept of being able to boost your concentration check really fits this class. While I don't care for the particular implementation, the idea is certainly spot on.
Critical strike is also a once per day that allows a magus to cast a touch spell and make the touch attack on the target of a critical as a swift action on a successful critical hit. It runs into the problem of too many competing swift actions, but is otherwise fine (and illustrates that there are exceptions to my dislike of once per day abilities).
Dispelling strike expends a prepared spell as a swift action to make a targeted dispell on the next target hit with a melee attack during the next minute. It cannot dispell a spell of a higher level than the one sacrificed. Definitely could be useful.
Empowered magic is the first of the metamagic arcana and I will discuss them all here together since they all work the same. Once per day you can apply the metamagic feat associated with the arcana without increasing the casting time or level of the spell. This would be very good except for the once per day limit. Applying a metamagic feat 3/day at no cost was worth a feat in 3.5. In addition to empower magic (empower spell feat), there is also maximized (maximize spell feat), quickened (quicken spell feat), silent (silent spell feat). and still (still spell feat). Each of these arcana must be chosen separately.
Moving along we come to familiar. Yes, this is the ability to gain a familiar just as with the wizard's arcane bond. No surprises, pretty much as expected.
Hasted assault is another expend a spell as a swift action arcana. This one grants you the effect of the haste spell targeting the magus only for one round per level of the spell expended. An interesting tactical option, but actually casting the 3rd level spell is significantly better.
Maneuver mastery is the only arcana that can be taken more than once. Each time it applies to a different combat maneuver. It lets you use your magus level as your BAB (for your magus levels) for the selected combat maneuver. One of the best of the bunch in my opinion.
Reflection is an immediate action sacrifice a prepared spell arcana. This one lets you reflect a spell that targets you back at the caster as per spell turning, provided it is not higher level than the spell sacrificed. I rather like this one.
Last is spell shield. Also an immediate action, it lets you sacrifice a spell to gain a shield bonus to AC equal to the level of the spell sacrificed until the end of your next turn. Note that since it is a shield bonus it does not stack with other shield bonuses such as that from the shield spell. While I originally thought this ability was useless compared to the 1st level shield spell, I had mistook the immediate action for another swift action. As an immediate action reactive ability it is actually of some value, although it can be highly situational.
Looks like part four is coming up and that should wrap this up.
I'm sure by this point Jason's (and others as well) eyes have glazed over and he is cursing my name. My apologies for having cast wall of words. I had a lot to say about this class and this was the most coherent way I could manage.
This is the wrap up.
Arcane weapon at 4th level is a wonderful ability that allows the magus to add magical enhancements and properties to his weapon at no monetary expense with the flexibility to change them out each day when preparing spells. I specify no monetary expense because doing so brings with it the same penalties as the wizard's bonded object arcane bond. A fair trade and a wonderfully appropriate ability. I won't go any more into the details of this ability. It works and is a highlight of the class.
At 5th level and every 6 levels after the magus gains a bonus feat chosen from combat, metamagic or item creation feats. All prerequisites apply. Standard stuff, no surprises, and highly expected.
At 7th the magus gains medium armor proficiency and the ability to ignore arcane spell failure in medium armor. (I told you previously that the light armor limitation would be addressed later on.)
Half way through the class at 10th level comes fighter training allowing you to count half your magus levels as fighter levels to meet feat prerequisites. Now that fighters get to have nice things it's nice that they are willing to share. Seriously though, the class abilities of the magus do lean toward the caster side and this gives some love to the martial side.
Weighing in at 13th level is heavy armor proficiency. Yes, now a magus can wear heavy armor and cast spells in it without arcane spell failure. Say hello to the arcane spell casting tank. Not a must have in my book, but a nice option and I'm happy to see it included.
Counterstrike is a 16th level ability that lets a magus make an attack of opportunity against any caster they threaten who has successfully cast a spell defensively. The attack doesn't take place till after the spell is complete, so it doesn't disrupt the spell, which may seem weak for a 16th level ability. Still getting a piece of the enemy caster who got off their spell is satisfying and I really like this ability.
Weapon bond at 19th level builds the arcane weapon class feature. If you are bonded to the weapon through arcane weapon you can teleport the weapon to your hand or teleport yourself to the weapon. You can also scry on it at will with other creatures possessing your weapon taking a penalty to resist your scrying attempt. Definitely a nice touch.
Now we come to the capstone called true magus. This was a little disappointing. First you no longer need to cast defensively when using spell combat. Too bad you are almost guaranteed to succeed by this point. Kind of makes it anti-climactic. In addition to not having to cast defensively, if you use spell combat and the spell targets the same creature you attack you can choose to add +2 to either the DC to resist the spell or the caster level check to overcome spell resistance or as a circumstance bonus to hit. For a capstone I find this a little underwhelming. Not only is it conditional, but it is a minor bonus at 20th level. If the magus were a full 9 spell level casting class like the wizard, witch, or cleric, this might be acceptable, However as a 6 spell level class with a limited spell list the magus rates a serious capstone ability. At least change all those "or"s to "and"s to make it meaningful.
It's a solid framework with good flavor and a few nice abilities, but some of the key abilities have serious flaws. I understand the concern of trying to not overshadow the eldritch knight prestige class, but I do believe that the issues I pointed out can be addressed without overpowering the magus so as to make the eldritch knight obsolete.
For those who read through this in it's entirety, I thank you for your patience.
A good read; I'll merely point out that Spellstrike doesn't do melee damage. It's literally just "You target normal AC instead of touch AC, gain 19-20/18-20 crit rate depending on weapon."
ProfessorCirno wrote: A good read; I'll merely point out that Spellstrike doesn't do melee damage. It's literally just "You target normal AC instead of touch AC, gain 19-20/18-20 crit rate depending on weapon." Thank you.
Spellstrike wrote:
Spellstrike (Su): Whenever a magus casts a spell with a
range of touch from the magus spell list, he can deliver the
spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee
attack. If successful, this attack deals its normal damage as
well as the effects of the spell. This ability does not grant
the magus a free melee attack—such attacks must be
made normally. Alternatively, a magus
can make a free touch attack with his
free hand instead of delivering the
spell through his weapon, as normal.
emphasis mine
The melee attack does deal normal weapon damage as well.
Dose the spellstrike half to be with a melee touch spell or can it be with a ranged touch spell? Because if you can add even ray of frost to it all the time that is another 1d3 +your weapond damage (likely 1d8) which isn't bad.
ddgon wrote: Dose the spellstrike half to be with a melee touch spell or can it be with a ranged touch spell? Because if you can add even ray of frost to it all the time that is another 1d3 +your weapond damage (likely 1d8) which isn't bad. Nope, touch attacks are synonomous with melee touch, but Ranged touch are only sometimes synonomous with ray not touch.
Sadly it lacks any 0th level spell to Spellstrike. Even touch of fatigue.
A cantrip/0-level touch spell would be useful.
As for including ranged touch attacks, why would you want to take ray of frost, or scorching ray and cut their range down to 5-feet and have to hit a higher AC? Not to mention since they are not touch attack they do not benefit from holding the charge. With touch spells if you miss you still hold the charge until you either hit with a touch or cast another spell. With ranged touch spells you cast the spell and if you miss with the ranged touch attack, you are done and the spell is gone, wasted.
I will point out that spellstrike is also good for getting more out of your limited pool of spells. Putting an intensified shocking grasp in a keen scimitar (with corresponding threat range) means that you can potentially get alot of bang for your 2nd level spell slot, since the spell gets a crit if you crit with your keen scimitar. 20d6 lightning damage from a second level spell is nothing to sneeze at. I nabbed one during my playtest (not using a scimitar), and it was sweet. And then if we consider the implications of getting a crit with a scythe...
There are different ways to use abilities and some have bonuses and uses that we overlook when we theory-craft. I'd overlooked the implications of the extended crit range of the spell from spellstrike till I scored a one during my playthrough.
FiddlersGreen wrote: I will point out that spellstrike is also good for getting more out of your limited pool of spells. Putting an intensified shocking grasp in a keen scimitar (with corresponding threat range) means that you can potentially get alot of bang for your 2nd level spell slot, since the spell gets a crit if you crit with your keen scimitar. 20d6 lightning damage from a second level spell is nothing to sneeze at. I nabbed one during my playtest (not using a scimitar), and it was sweet. And then if we consider the implications of getting a crit with a scythe...
There are different ways to use abilities and some have bonuses and uses that we overlook when we theory-craft. I'd overlooked the implications of the extended crit range of the spell from spellstrike till I scored a one during my playthrough.
I did state that spellstrike benefits from the critical threat range of the weapon.
As for the scythe, putting aside that it is a two handed weapon and you need a free hand to cast the spell, the only implication is that if you crit while using spell strike you get the spell damage x2 and the scythe damage x4. As per Jason, only the threat range applies to the spell effect, the crit multiplier of the weapon only applies to the weapon damage and the crit multiplier on the spell damage remains x2.
If one were to take into account the possibility of casting the spell one round while holding a two handed weapon in the other hand (since spellstrike does not specify wielding a one handed or light weapon) and then using spell strike to channel the charge through the weapon the next round you would increase then number of weapons that benefit from an increased threat range by about another half dozen and add an equal number of weapons that grant reach.
edit: I'm also being generous and grouping the 18-20 and 19-20 crit range weapons together instead of tiering the benefit between them.
I will also go on record as agreeing that crits are sweet, and big crits especially so.
Freesword wrote: FiddlersGreen wrote: I will point out that spellstrike is also good for getting more out of your limited pool of spells. Putting an intensified shocking grasp in a keen scimitar (with corresponding threat range) means that you can potentially get alot of bang for your 2nd level spell slot, since the spell gets a crit if you crit with your keen scimitar. 20d6 lightning damage from a second level spell is nothing to sneeze at. I nabbed one during my playtest (not using a scimitar), and it was sweet. And then if we consider the implications of getting a crit with a scythe...
There are different ways to use abilities and some have bonuses and uses that we overlook when we theory-craft. I'd overlooked the implications of the extended crit range of the spell from spellstrike till I scored a one during my playthrough.
I did state that spellstrike benefits from the critical threat range of the weapon.
As for the scythe, putting aside that it is a two handed weapon and you need a free hand to cast the spell, the only implication is that if you crit while using spell strike you get the spell damage x2 and the scythe damage x4. As per Jason, only the threat range applies to the spell effect, the crit multiplier of the weapon only applies to the weapon damage and the crit multiplier on the spell damage remains x2.
If one were to take into account the possibility of casting the spell one round while holding a two handed weapon in the other hand (since spellstrike does not specify wielding a one handed or light weapon) and then using spell strike to channel the charge through the weapon the next round you would increase then number of weapons that benefit from an increased threat range by about another half dozen and add an equal number of weapons that grant reach.
edit: I'm also being generous and grouping the 18-20 and 19-20 crit range weapons together instead of tiering the benefit between them.
I will also go on record as agreeing that crits are sweet, and big crits especially so.... I did appreciate the odds. I was merely pointing out that there were merits to using the ability, especially keeping in mind that it's attained at first level.
FiddlersGreen wrote: I was merely pointing out that there were merits to using the ability, especially keeping in mind that it's attained at first level. Your defense of the merits of the ability is admirable and I do acknowledge them even though my assessment of the ability comes across as particularly critical. I endeavored to be fair in my assessment of the class and mentioned what works and what does not. I feel its down sides outweigh its merits and I am including in my feedback why I feel thing do not work as well as what aspects do. In fact I commented favorably on another of this class's crit based abilities (critical strike). Every other class gets better than the magus at 1st level. Spellstrike sounds like a powerful ability on the surface, but it doesn't measure up under critical analysis. Sometimes the underlying mechanics of the game get in the way of an idea that sounds really cool.
Other than echo what many others have said elsewhere [in bite sized chunks!], you haven't really suggested any useful alternatives for Jason/James can consider. Saying "I don't like" or "I'm not a fan of" is only any good if you have something to offer up as a possible replacement.
However, I do agree with your point by point views [hence the word echo].
Freesword wrote: ...and Arcane Strike (+1 to attack and damage)... Actually, the Arcane Strike feat does not provide a bonus to attack, just damage and makes the weapon count as magic for purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
I stated up front this was not a "how I would fix the magus" thread. My purpose was to point out what I felt doesn't work and why. Most of the major fixes already have their own threads which I have contributed to. I did include a couple of suggestions for things that haven't been getting much mention. Some things I feel need work, but I don't have a good suggestion for. This isn't about design by committee. I've seen a lot of "I think you should do this instead" back seat design, but that isn't much use if Jason isn't being told why his original idea isn't working. Yes, a good deal of what I said has been said elsewhere, in bits and pieces. I felt the class needed to be looked at as a whole to see where it's strengths and weaknesses are. Some of my comments were personal preference/opinion, and I identified them as such. Most was as objective of an analysis of the mechanics as I could give.
F. Castor wrote: Freesword wrote: ...and Arcane Strike (+1 to attack and damage)... Actually, the Arcane Strike feat does not provide a bonus to attack, just damage and makes the weapon count as magic for purposes of overcoming damage reduction. You are correct. I could have sworn it said there was a bonus to hit when I checked. Clearly an error on my part and I will endeavor to be more careful in the future. Based on this I must revise a couple of my comments.
This makes offsetting the penalty for spell combat more difficult, and weapon finesse is a better choice (unless your strength mod is higher than or equal to your dexterity mod).
Additionally the magus arcana arcane accuracy makes more sense now, although it is still forcing a choice of swift actions. Until you get 2nd level spells casting magic weapon is still better, and once you get 3rd level spells, greater magic weapon gives you the exact bonuses I described. To be fair though the insight bonus from arcane accuracy will stack with both spells (a factor I neglected to mention in my original comments because conflicting swift actions would have made it irrelevant).
Freesword wrote: I stated up front this was not a "how I would fix the magus" thread. My purpose was to point out what I felt doesn't work and why. Well I think I would be remiss if I didn't make the two common comments/suggestions:
1. Alter spell strike to allow for a standard action the magus to cast a standard action touch spell then during that round as a free action attack with a weapon to deliver it. The ability to deliver a held touch attack via weapon (like anyone can do via unarmed strike and natural attacks) would also be retained.
2. Remove the horrid penalties for spell combat. At low levels there is no action economy here... the chances of losing the spell and missing more than make up here. This ability has the magus burning spells like a sorcerer but with the bard's number of slots. Honestly I don't think that there needs to be any penalty to this ability and mere economy will keep it in line... think of it as the magus' class ability that tries to keep it up with the fighter for limited amounts much like the rogue's sneak attack.
-James
james maissen wrote: 1. Alter spell strike to allow for a standard action the magus to cast a standard action touch spell then during that round as a free action attack with a weapon to deliver it. The ability to deliver a held touch attack via weapon (like anyone can do via unarmed strike and natural attacks) would also be retained. If you do that, be careful to ONLY allow this for a standard action. Otherwise, people will start to use Spell Combat to cast touch attacks and Spell Strike to gain an extra attack.
Might not be a big problem right now (since you might just as well use the touch attack as your bonus attack) but I still hope they add some touch cantrip(s) to the Magus' spell list and with that you would have infinite extra attacks all day long.
Freesword wrote: A cantrip/0-level touch spell would be useful.
As for including ranged touch attacks, why would you want to take ray of frost, or scorching ray and cut their range down to 5-feet and have to hit a higher AC? Not to mention since they are not touch attack they do not benefit from holding the charge. With touch spells if you miss you still hold the charge until you either hit with a touch or cast another spell. With ranged touch spells you cast the spell and if you miss with the ranged touch attack, you are done and the spell is gone, wasted.
As for why I would use Ray of Frost in melee, if I didn’t want to do that I would look like any of the other first lvl casters. Not a melee fighter type, which is kinda totally the point of the class. If there was even a Ray of Frost equivalent melee touch I think it would help the class out. At first lvl, other melee classes get +1 to attack, and up to +3 damage(+2str for a barb equals +3damage because of 1.5XSTR) or +1d6 (rogue). So adding a d3 would help keep the class in the running. And the fact that you can do it all day.
Think of it this way, I want to hit the target in melee with my longsword (standard one hand weapon), and will do +4 damage if I do. Or I could do 1d3 damage from rage. 1d3 vs 1d8+4 is what you get. Care to explain how 1d3 wins? Sure the attack is at a higher AC, but my str is much higher then my dex, by likely 2 points or more. For a class to be a melee contender in pathfinder, STR is important. STR = damage. Even archers use STR as their damage stat.
So in short, I would want to spellstrike ray of frost because it would maximize damage and would eat up nothing more then a standard attack. One that the rules say I can do all day long. Being forced to use one of my 2 lvl 1 spells makes it a much harder choice.
I think you should point out the following:
Medium Armor Proficiency: This ability nets you +1 to your AC, at the cost of limiting your Dex bonus to AC (bad for finesse builds) and affecting your movement rate.
Heavy Armor Proficiency: This ability nets you a further +1 to AC, at the cost of severely restricting your Dex bonus to AC and your movement rate. If you want to play a mobile, agile caster, definitely not of value.
==+Aelryinth
Aelryinth wrote: I think you should point out the following:
Medium Armor Proficiency: This ability nets you +1 to your AC, at the cost of limiting your Dex bonus to AC (bad for finesse builds) and affecting your movement rate.
Heavy Armor Proficiency: This ability nets you a further +1 to AC, at the cost of severely restricting your Dex bonus to AC and your movement rate. If you want to play a mobile, agile caster, definitely not of value.
==+Aelryinth
Have you not seen Mithril armour? ;)
stuart haffenden wrote: Have you not seen Mithril armour? ;) Perhaps, like me, he just hasn't seen a game where the players are in charge of what magic items they get. Unlike, say, a magic wand, armor and weapons made out of special materials require the special material in addition to a gold piece and time cost.
This is one problem I have noticed again and again with message board builds going back to the 3.5 transition (and probably further, but I wasn't paying attention back then), the assumption that players are always in charge of what items they receive. Some items were almost standard equipment if you look in those places. Back then, a barbarian would always defeat any archery build because teleporting capes and flying boots were apparently standard issue to every single barbarian that managed to survive past level 5.
I have yet to see one of those games in actual play myself. The only standard issue stuff I have ever seen is the characters will eventually receive magical weapons and armor, in addition to items that increase their saving roll bonuses. Plus there is always one extra-dimensional space item per party, but it varies who carries it and what the exact item was. Beyond that, everything was open based on what the GM feels like handing out, although he does take player input. The magic weapon will be what the character has invested feats in, and most of the time will have special powers that the character can actually use. Weapon of mighty cleaving aren't normally handed out to characters without the cleave feat, for example.
Jason Ellis 350 wrote: stuart haffenden wrote: Have you not seen Mithril armour? ;) Perhaps, like me, he just hasn't seen a game where the players are in charge of what magic items they get. Unlike, say, a magic wand, armor and weapons made out of special materials require the special material in addition to a gold piece and time cost.
This is one problem I have noticed again and again with message board builds going back to the 3.5 transition (and probably further, but I wasn't paying attention back then), the assumption that players are always in charge of what items they receive. Some items were almost standard equipment if you look in those places. Back then, a barbarian would always defeat any archery build because teleporting capes and flying boots were apparently standard issue to every single barbarian that managed to survive past level 5.
I have yet to see one of those games in actual play myself. The only standard issue stuff I have ever seen is the characters will eventually receive magical weapons and armor, in addition to items that increase their saving roll bonuses. Plus there is always one extra-dimensional space item per party, but it varies who carries it and what the exact item was. Beyond that, everything was open based on what the GM feels like handing out, although he does take player input. The magic weapon will be what the character has invested feats in, and most of the time will have special powers that the character can actually use. Weapon of mighty cleaving aren't normally handed out to characters without the cleave feat, for example. Well I can see what you're saying. As a DM I don't allow access to silly books [Magic Item Compendium I'm looking at you] because they have loads of unbalancing items that allow every class to do almost everything [maybe it was an initial move toward 4.0 thinking] so I usually stay largely Core.
However I think Mithril armour from, say, a City is fairly common from my own experiences as a player and DM, but different strokes and all that.
THe best thing about limiting your melee classes from getting items is that you're just making them more hilariously pathetic.
Fighters need magic items. Hell, since the earliest of D&D, it was implied that fighters should be getting most of the magic items. Casters don't need magic items. They have spells!
So you deny your barbarian an item of flying. Oh look we're fighting a flying monster. Guess I sit here and do nothing. Oh look, almost everything at higher levels is flying. Sorry barbarian, should've made a wizard!
Denying magical items is bar none the dumbest thing you can do in 3.x.
ProfessorCirno wrote: THe best thing about limiting your melee classes from getting items is that you're just making them more hilariously pathetic.
Fighters need magic items. Hell, since the earliest of D&D, it was implied that fighters should be getting most of the magic items. Casters don't need magic items. They have spells!
So you deny your barbarian an item of flying. Oh look we're fighting a flying monster. Guess I sit here and do nothing. Oh look, almost everything at higher levels is flying. Sorry barbarian, should've made a wizard!
Denying magical items is bar none the dumbest thing you can do in 3.x.
I like you. You're smart and make sense.
Attaching any sort of limitation on obtaining magic items is the same as requiring anyone who is not playing a full spellcaster to pass you their character sheet at level 7 and make a character who can still play D&D at those levels.
It has nothing to do with some hypothetical PvP combat against an archer. Besides, any archer that isn't a Cleric is going to lose vs everything anyways. And if the Archer is a Cleric, the Barbarian will lose anyways.
ProfessorCirno wrote:
Denying magical items is bar none the dumbest thing you can do in 3.x.
Especially when 3e took such great pains to make creating items so much easier.
It really makes an assumption on the frequency and availability of items. If you completely deny certain things to the PCs then they have the avenue to make them for themselves.
It just overvalues the item creation feats.
-James
Jason Ellis 350 wrote: stuart haffenden wrote: Have you not seen Mithril armour? ;) Perhaps, like me, he just hasn't seen a game where the players are in charge of what magic items they get. Mithral armor is not a magic item. Mithral is listed in the regular Equipment chapter, just like masterwork armor.
I have met a few DMs that held firmly to the idea that a Mithril Item was more rare than a +3 weapon. I don't agree, but there are some who believe Frodos shirt should get some respect.
I normally don't make Mithral common. Kinda a hard to find item so is adamantine. In my homebrew forging both metals are lost arts and can not just be made but must be found or passes down.
seekerofshadowlight wrote: I normally don't make Mithral common. Kinda a hard to find item so is adamantine. In my homebrew forging both metals are lost arts and can not just be made but must be found or passes down. Jeez! what are all those idle Dwarf hands going to do... ;)
stuart haffenden wrote: seekerofshadowlight wrote: I normally don't make Mithral common. Kinda a hard to find item so is adamantine. In my homebrew forging both metals are lost arts and can not just be made but must be found or passes down. Jeez! what are all those idle Dwarf hands going to do... ;) In my world Dwarves do not dig at the earth like worms! No they sail the seas in clan ships or vast floating cities of wood and sail or rule the western steps as nomadic mounted warroirs who raid and pillage as they will.
stuart haffenden wrote: Jeez! what are all those idle Dwarf hands going to do... ;) Oh, they are still mining, but most of what they get is your standard metals, like iron, copper, and other such things. Mithril is rare, and when it becomes a standard item it loses the mystique attached to it. Fortunately, there are other ways to get medium armor without losing speed besides making it out of mithril. At least in the campaign I am playing in, anyways.
ProfessorCirno wrote: He best thing about limiting your melee classes from getting items is that you're just making them more hilariously pathetic.
Fighters need magic items. Hell, since the earliest of D&D, it was implied that fighters should be getting most of the magic items. Casters don't need magic items. They have spells!
So you deny your barbarian an item of flying. Oh look we're fighting a flying monster. Guess I sit here and do nothing. Oh look, almost everything at higher levels is flying. Sorry barbarian, should've made a wizard!
Denying magical items is bar none the dumbest thing you can do in 3.x.
Well, if you read what I had posted earlier you would note the complaint was about specific effects being some kind of standard equipment for low and mid level characters, but why let a little thing like what I actually wrote get in the way of a good rant?
Jason Ellis 350 wrote: Back then, a barbarian would always defeat any archery build because teleporting capes and flying boots were apparently standard issue to every single barbarian that managed to survive past level 5. You either missed the bold part or chose to ignore it completely. I'm not the definitive source on 3.x, but I don't think level 5 counts as "high level."
Also note You can't assume mithral armor as a default. Plus, the movement argument is only delayed one prof level. The rest holds true...each prof level nets you +1 AC from an AC+Dex basis. But assuming your character is going to go from mithral chain+3 to mithral BP +3 the instant he gets heavy armor is a bit of a stretch.
==Aelryinth
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